Kevin Youkilis and Bill Mueller, and a rant.

[CalvnHobs6]

I've been seeing all these articles that say how much the Sox have missed Mueller and how great it'll be to have him back next weekend. Well guess what...Youki has reached base in 21 of his 22 games this season. He's also posted 12 RBI and score 18 runs in that time. What's gonna happen to Kevin Youkilis when Mueller comes back? Who gets sent down when Trot gets back (Dominique was sent down today when Williamson was recalled.) How about when Mendoza returns? Or Kim? The Sox have some serious trade bait with all their depth, and I think they need to take advantage. (not with youki, but with Mueller, and all their shitty pitchers who others think are good, like Kim...and yeszir, kim will be good in a few years, but now is when we need good.) Hopefully my rant could be followed.

[Old Hoss]

Where have you been reading all these articles? I haven't heard Mueller's name mentioned all that much. On Friday night's TV38 game, Sean McDonough mentioned him and that's the first time I've heard his name in over a week.

[YanksHater213]

Originally posted by Old Hoss@Jun 12 2004, 12:37 AM
Where have you been reading all these articles? I haven't heard Mueller's name mentioned all that much. On Friday night's TV38 game, Sean McDonough mentioned him and that's the first time I've heard his name in over a week.
same here. mueller his been nonexistent since his injury

[yeszir]

Yea, do you have a link to these articles so we can all bitch together?

[TheFens]

When is Mueller coming back by the way? I havent heard anything about him at all. I want to see Youki in there for longer, he's so good! Much better than anyone expected at such an early stage.

[RedSoxRooter]

I'll be the first to agree that Youk's done a fine job, but this is the Majors... and Billy Mueller is the American League Batting Champion of 2003. He has earned every right to start when he returns. Youk has yet to earn anything other than our respect as a prospect. Billy is the 3rd Baseman. He should be back (I think) 6 weeks retroactive to the date of the surgery.

[yagmaster]

I think Youkilis have warranted the third base job...if we didn't have a batting champion coming back. If Mueller continues to struggle like he had been before his injury, I'm pretty sure Youky could get his job back. However, with both of them playing to their potentials (actually with Mueller playing to his potential because I don't know about Youky's ceiling), I think Mueller will help us more down the road.

[TheFens]

Originally posted by RedSoxRooter@Jun 12 2004, 01:22 PM
I'll be the first to agree that Youk's done a fine job, but this is the Majors... and Billy Mueller is the American League Batting Champion of 2003. He has earned every right to start when he returns. Youk has yet to earn anything other than our respect as a prospect. Billy is the 3rd Baseman. He should be back (I think) 6 weeks retroactive to the date of the surgery.
It's a shame that two people can't play 3rd base at the same time, isnt it? But I do see your point, and, however reluctantly, I agree with you. As much as I like seeing Euclis out there, Mueller has been the 3rd baseman for longer, and he did win the AL batting title last year, and he is supposedly a defensive stud, and he has earned out respect.

This is the frustrating part, having to decide between two players who both have their pros, and whom you both like. :(

[Zenny]

As a prospect lover, I'm going to be very biased here and say Youkilis should start and Mueller should be shipped out or be left riding the pine. But that may not be the most logical thing. I'm probably the wrong person to be giving opinions about this.

[JMDurron]

Mueller hasn't earned anything yet this year, while Youkilis has at least earned the right to compete for the position. I believe this was the same argument that was occuring last season with Hillenbrand/Mueller, and now it's Mueller/Youkilis. Our "batting champ" from last year is hitting .262. I have nothing against Mueller, but giving playing time this year based on a single year of performance is a dangerous thing to do.

[RedSoxRooter]

Originally posted by JMDurron@Jun 13 2004, 03:33 PM
I have nothing against Mueller, but giving playing time this year based on a single year of performance is a dangerous thing to do.
How is that any different than the respect you're giving Youkilis? Giving playing time this year based on a single month of performance is a dangerous thing to do....

[tek33rules]

I really think that if Mueller comes back and he the first 4-5 games is the same as he was meaning not as good as Youks then stay with Youks and get him some more ML experience.

[RedSoxRooter]

wow. nice avitar! I can watch that all day long!

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by RedSoxRooter+Jun 13 2004, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedSoxRooter @ Jun 13 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JMDurron@Jun 13 2004, 03:33 PM
I have nothing against Mueller, but giving playing time this year based on a single year of performance is a dangerous thing to do.
How is that any different than the respect you&#39;re giving Youkilis? Giving playing time this year based on a single month of performance is a dangerous thing to do.... [/b][/quote]
I&#39;m giving Youkilis credit for his performance so far this year, just like Mueller was given credit for his performance last year WHEN IT WAS LAST YEAR. Small sample sizes are fun, which is why I say that Youkilis has been great for us SO FAR this year, and that we should stick with him until he falls, if he does. Going with the hot hand/bat is not a new concept in sports, and Bill Mueller is the perfect example of how this worked for us last year. There are small sample size problems for both Mueller and Youkilis, but Youk is putting up the numbers this year, when we need them, while Mueller hasn&#39;t been. If Mueller proves otherwise when he returns (because I suspect that Youkilis WILL drop as pitchers adjust to him, and that Francona will go back to Mueller either way), then, obviously, you go with him. But going with him based only on last year&#39;s performance is not a good idea. Not when Youkilis has been superior to Mueller so far this year.

Another reason to think about Youkilis over Mueller at 3B is that, given that Youkilis is known as a "Moneyball" prospect and "The Greek God of Walks", this organization values him more than others would, and therefore he has minimal trade value. Mueller, on the other hand, won the batting title last year, and I think that will make some prospective teams value him above his performance this year. Therefore, IF you want to trade one of our 3B, Mueller is more attractive to the market than his performance would indicate, and Youkilis is less so.

[yeszir]

You also need to take into consideration the fan favoriteness (nice word there, right?) of youk. Mueller doesnt have a "mooooool" chant going or anything, but youk has his "yoooooouk." The fans at Fenway love Youkilis, more so than they do Mueller, and although you really can&#39;t make a decision based on that alone, it may affect how they each play.

Youkilis has said that he feeds off of the energy at the park, and how that youk chant really gets him excited. Mueller wouldn&#39;t get that type of reaction. So, why not keep a super-hyped Youkilis in there? Plus he&#39;s a prospect, something that the sox are in desperate need of. My signs point to Youkilis right now.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by yeszir@Jun 13 2004, 06:04 PM
You also need to take into consideration the fan favoriteness (nice word there, right?) of youk. Mueller doesnt have a "mooooool" chant going or anything, but youk has his "yoooooouk." The fans at Fenway love Youkilis, more so than they do Mueller, and although you really can&#39;t make a decision based on that alone, it may affect how they each play.

Youkilis has said that he feeds off of the energy at the park, and how that youk chant really gets him excited. Mueller wouldn&#39;t get that type of reaction. So, why not keep a super-hyped Youkilis in there? Plus he&#39;s a prospect, something that the sox are in desperate need of. My signs point to Youkilis right now.
Fan favoritism isn&#39;t really something that should be taken into account though. If the masses wind up being right from time to time, that&#39;s excellent. But you also have to keep in mind the times that a better player has been booed because the more popular guy wasn&#39;t playing the same position. I really think the crowd just likes having a fun name like "Youk" or "Pokey" to chant.

[noonanberg]

How you would ever put in Mueller over Youkilis is beyond me. Giving Youk the shaft after his strong fill- in performance would be stupid and certainly not beneficial. The kid is hot and there&#39;s no reason to put him on the bench for a guy who slumped and then was injured. Sure Mueller was last year&#39;s batting champ, but that was one good year in what, about 10? Mueller is old, hasn&#39;t proven himself thus far this year, and despite the fact that many praise it, I&#39;ve never found his fielding to be too great. By getting rid of Mueller (hopefully in a package with Kim and Mendoza and Millar {who&#39;s a whole nother story}) you would get Youk as an everyday man, which right now is serving him and the team well, as well as having the luxury of giving guys like Malaska, Dinardo and Dominique the occassional call- up. Plus, if Youk does hit a slump down the road, Bellhorn can also play third base (after Pokey returns). So I say when Pokey comes back, get rid of Mueller, it&#39;s the smart thing to do.

[CalvnHobs6]

Welcome to the site Noondog :D

[Old Hoss]

Keep in mind that Mueller was playing on that injured knee for quite awhile and this could have been part of the reason this season was not up to last year&#39;s standards. IMO, Mueller will be in a Red Sox uniform for the remainder of &#39;04.

[JMDurron]

You could argue that it&#39;s worthwile to bench Youk for Mueller to keep Youk from getting overly exposed as pitchers adjust to him.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by JMDurron@Jun 25 2004, 12:46 AM
You could argue that it&#39;s worthwile to bench Youk for Mueller to keep Youk from getting overly exposed as pitchers adjust to him.
That&#39;s not beneficial to a young player&#39;s development. They need to be in the line-up everyday so they can adjust. It is more of a question of having the young hitter adjust to the pitching than vice-versa. The worst thing you could do in this scenario is bench him so he gets rusty.

[trot4mvp]

Wow...Youk over Mueller?&#33; Never thought I&#39;d hear that coming ... Noondog, what&#39;s your problem with Mueller? Guys don&#39;t just win batting titles and fall off the face of the earth. Mueller&#39;s problem throughout his career has been injuries, and no one can blame him for that ... he&#39;s had great years (or at least great starts) for the Cubs, Giants, etc. He also won the batting title over teammates like Manny Ramirez and Nomar Garciaparra ... we don&#39;t leave them out for an inexperienced rookie, do we? Youk is also a defensive liability at third (moreso than Mueller, anyway). Fact of the matter is that Mueller will be starting when he gets back and Youk will be playing off the bench, end of story. Right now, Youk is a spare part who has served his role fairly well. However, he needs some time back in AAA so that he stops taking so many goddamned pitches and to work on his glove. I can&#39;t believe people on this board have given up on Mueller already. Arguably one of the most potent bottom-of-the-order hitters in baseball.

Also, FYI...the only reason DiNardo remains on the Red Sox roster is because he needs to stay on the roster all year or somebody like the Mets can reclaim him because he was a rule 5 draft pick. Otherwise, based on his pitching performance, he would have been long gone. Malaska is as good as gone when Leskanic comes up (and possibly BK). And bringing up Andy Dominique again? Let me ask you, where are we going to put Andy Dominique? ... lets see: can&#39;t play outfield; 1B is occupied by Millar (who is under contract through next year) and Ortiz (under contract through 2006 (?)); won&#39;t catch, because if Varitek leaves, Shoppach is coming up; and we wouldn&#39;t have him DH because of guys like Ortiz, Millar, Youk, etc.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by Zenny@Jun 25 2004, 01:18 AM

That&#39;s not beneficial to a young player&#39;s development. They need to be in the line-up everyday so they can adjust. It is more of a question of having the young hitter adjust to the pitching than vice-versa. The worst thing you could do in this scenario is bench him so he gets rusty.
That&#39;s why you&#39;d send Youk back to AAA - so he can keep playing everyday. I&#39;m not saying I necessarily buy that argument, just that a good case could be made.

Regarding the points against Youk by trot4mvp, some things to keep in mind.

Mueller at 3B for the Sox:

Year Fielding% Range
2003: .951 2.52
2004: .910 2.01

Youk:
2004: .973 2.59

Youkilis has been better defensively at 3B, both in terms of errors made and range, than Mueller has been. He&#39;s not a liability there.

As for the rather ridiculous idea that Youk needs to stop taking so many pitches, let&#39;s take a look at team OBP rankings this season.

Manny: .434
Trot (small sample warning): .400
Varitek: .393
Bellhorn: .389
Damon: .379
Youkilis: .372

Youk gets on base 37.2% of the time that he comes to the plate. But he needs to stop taking so many pitches? :rolleyes:

I agree that most guys who win batting titles don&#39;t just fall off the face of the Earth, but Mueller&#39;s only season (over 100 games) with a batting average over .300 was this past year. It&#39;s entirely possible that he was a one-year wonder. I certainly hope not, though.

I understand wanting Mueller back and in the lower lineup ASAP, but let&#39;s not slam Youk for problems that don&#39;t actually exist. He&#39;s done a remarkable job filling in, both offensively and defensively.

[yawkeyway]

From what I saw before he went down with injury, Mueller winning the batting title last year seems like it was a fluke. Sure, he&#39;s a decent player, and he plays o.k 3b, but Youkilis might be on par with him right now, with the potential to surpass him at any second.

Here are Mueller&#39;s stats from this year so far offensively:

2004 BOS 36 145 23 38 7 0 5 21 15 21 0 1 .262 .333 .414 .747
Not too great. Youkilis:

Career 29 103 21 28 7 0 3 14 15 22 0 1 .272 .372 .427 .799 about the same, but in about 40 fewer at bats. If a guy who probably should be in AAA right now is outhitting your day to day 3b, something is probably not going well with your day to day 3b.

If Mueller comes back, and Tito desperately wants him to play, I guess you do have to send Youk back down, so he can play everyday as JM mentioned and continue to hone his skills. It&#39;s better than riding the bench, and he&#39;d understand that its for the best.

It&#39;ll be interesting to see how things play out I guess.

[trot4mvp]

JMD, first, I don&#39;t think I was slamming Youk. We all can agree that he&#39;s been a godsend as a replacement for Billy Meuller. He will be a great member of the Boston Red Sox for a long time (I hope). I was simply arguing against his outright trade, which from a business perspective doesn&#39;t make sense at all (I won&#39;t go into details on this one).

I suppose you&#39;re right about the defense at 3B...I should have looked at the stats first (call me lazy).

However, my comment about taking too many pitches dealt more with his slow adjustment to major league umpires. In AA and AAA, Youk got away with close calls around the plate. Those same pitches in the minors that went for balls are often called for strikes in the bigs, and being a rookie has not helped his cause. It&#39;s a simple adjustment that he will make over time. He&#39;s not called &#39;the greek god of walks&#39; for nothing, but 22 k&#39;s to 15 bb&#39;s shouldn&#39;t warrant this nickname yet. Think about how high his OBP could be if he swung at some of those close strikes?

Also, when mentioning your OBP&#39;s, you forgot to mention that Youkilis has a small sample size as well. I couldn&#39;t confidently predict future success on 103 major league at-bats, so citing his .372 OBP does not tell me much, and you can&#39;t really compare him to guys like Manny and Varitek, who have been playing all season and have seen upwards of 250 AB&#39;s. The main reason I&#39;m questioning his OBP and, indeed, all of his stats is because rookies tend to fare well against major league pitching their first time around because pitcher&#39;s don&#39;t have accurate scouting reports on them. Once in awhile a freak like Miguel Cabrera will come along and continue pounding the pitchers he faces, but more often than not, rookies struggle when they face the same pitchers the 2nd and 3rd time around. I&#39;m not saying Youk can&#39;t be successful in this phase, but this is a commonly-cited cycle that players go through. I can break out the stats if necessary, but I&#39;m at work right now. I want to make it clear that I don&#39;t think Youk is a bad ball player; I just know that he&#39;s not ready to take over for Mueller at third yet (unless, of course, Mueller stays hurt).

yawkeyway made a good point, but the wrong argument. Our AAA guy, Youk, was outperforming our regular 3B because "something is probably not going well." Could an arthritic knee fit the bill? Thought so...hope Billy is well-recovered, look forward to seeing him come back...Anyone know the status of his injury? I heard he was going to start taking BP soon ... Any word?

[yeszir]

Whether Mueller&#39;s problems stemmed from that injury of his is to be seen when he comes back eventually.

Personally, I think that other factors were contributing to his lack of production. His knee certainly may have been a factor, don&#39;t get me wrong, but I think that we&#39;d be off base to predict another batting champion season out of Mueller. He&#39;s a career .291 hitter, and we can expect that from him from now on I think.

True, Youkilis does have a small sample size, and true, he has had some trouble adjusting to major league pitching, but I dont think that pitchers will figure him out. A perfect example of what you said, trot4mvp, is Clemens, who, after dominating the NL, basically fell apart once teams faced him more than once.

I dont think this will happen to Youkilis simply because
a) it hasnt happened yet, and he has faced the same teams more than once
and B ) he&#39;s too good of a hitter to fall into that trap.

As of right now, I guess it&#39;s a toss up between Mueller and Youkilis. But for the future, I dont think anyone is arguing against Youk.

[elsrbueno]

Seems everyone&#39;s got an opinion on this issue, and it&#39;s either one or the other.

I&#39;m kinda in the middle right now, having a hard time deciding who I&#39;d play.

Mueller is a veteran, who isn&#39;t a batting champ threat every year, but he is a quality player. His defense is also very good.

Youkilis has given me NO reason to dislike him, or any reason really to think he deserves to be sent down or sitting.

This may end up a numbers game, with Youk going down because he makes less money. Sad, but true.

Pokey might play the biggest role here, because keep in mind: Mueller can play second base too. If Pokey&#39;s out a while, we may see that happen too just to get these guys playing time.

Terry has shown that he isn&#39;t afraid to juggle guys in and out of the lineup, or move positions around.


I think the best part about Mueller being back soon is: No more Crespo&#33;

[trot4mvp]

I think elsrbueno brought up the most important issue of this thread...a healthy Billy Mueller = no more Crespo&#33;&#33;&#33; That&#39;s a reason to celebrate in my book.

[TheFens]

Originally posted by trot4mvp@Jun 25 2004, 01:18 PM
I think elsrbueno brought up the most important issue of this thread...a healthy Billy Mueller = no more Crespo&#33;&#33;&#33; That&#39;s a reason to celebrate in my book.
Just to point out:
Crespo hasn&#39;t had an at-bat since June 17th, and he hasn&#39;t started since the 6th (which, coincidentally, was when he had his last hit). It&#39;s not like Mueller&#39;s absence is forcing Crespo into the lineup on a daily basis.

[JMDurron]

Ok, responding to too many people here, so let me take this point by point

Youk&#39;s sample size is nowhere CLOSE to as small as Nixon, hence Nixon having the note next to his name, and not Youk. I wasn&#39;t trying to pretend that Youk has had as many PAs as Manny or Varitek, but I think he&#39;s seen enough playing time to say that his taking pitches has not been hurting his performance, or the team. I think just about every player would have a high OBP if they swung at called 3rd strikes. I also think that some of the calls that Youk does not get is purely a result of his being a rookie, as opposed to ML umpires having a different zone. I think HE&#39;S just getting an expanded zone to a small degree.

Mueller = No Crespo = Happy JM

In response to Mueller&#39;s absence not forcing Crespo into the lineup, I don&#39;t think that&#39;s the issue. The issue is that Mueller AND Pokey being injured forcing Crespo into being our only IF backup. Either one coming back = almost no Crespo, like we have seen since the 6th.

The reasoning for sending Youk down instead of Mueller (Youk&#39;s cheaper) could also be used as an argument for shopping Mueller for pitching once he&#39;s back healthy. This would be dependent on a healthy Pokey as well, of course.

[elsrbueno]

A lot of stuff being thrown around.....I&#39;ll throw in my 2 cents:


Crespo being the primary IF backup is what scares me. I have very little confidence in the man. With Mueller back in the fold, that strengthens the bench, because someone very good (Belly, Pokey, Youk, or even Billy) will be on the bench.

Make no mistake: Championship teams have strong DEPTH, not just strong starting 9. I am a firm believer that those powerful Braves teams were unsuccessful in the playoffs because of a lack of depth (a whole different topic altogether).

One thing to consider about Youk vs Mueller is youth/experience. Many good hitters have gone through serious performance problems after seeing teams the second time around....