The Jeter Isn't Clutch Thread

[rician blast]

The following is from this month's ESPN magazine. Kind of goes with what many were saying in the "overrated players" thread regarding Jetesy:




CLUTCH IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR LUCK. LOOK AT CAPTAIN CLUTCH HIMSELF

Derek Jeter is not clutch.

This is meant as neither indictment nor blasphemy. It is explanatory, not accusatory. But it runs the risk of being dismissed as hating because Jeter is a cathedral, and worship tends to cloud fanatics, faith obstructing facts. So forgive me, for I am about to sin.

When it comes to Captain Clutch, the secondbest shortstop on his side of the Yankee infield, I'm an atheist. Jeter is a very good player. Don't misunderstand. Very good. But he has been lucky, too. Right place, right time. He wouldn't be viewed as a mystic winner if he had been exactly the same player, or even a better one, and come up with the Pirates. Never underestimate the importance of luck in the building of legends. Bill Belichick, for example, was Dave Wannstedt before stumbling upon Tom Brady in the sixth round.

A's GM Billy Beane, baseball's “smartest” man, is asked what one word he'd most like to associate with a player: leader, winner, heart, know-how, clutch, lucky.

“Lucky,” he says. “Because then people will attach those other things to him anyway.”

We love intangibles. They are the bedrock of all faiths, explanations for the inexplicable. This is how it is with worship. If you want to believe, your eyes will see the face of God in a cheese sandwich.

So it can't be that Jeter has been passenger as often as driver, fortunate enough to be one of the few constants during a decade on the postseason stage. It can't be that Jeter always seems to be around big moments because he has played 115 postseason games (more than Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Willie Mays combined). What chance does “sample size” have against “clutch” amid fanatics who prefer to believe in abstractions? You play 115 postseason games (more than Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro and Ted Williams combined) and, every once in a while, Jeffrey Maier is going to reach out and turn one of your outs into a home run. Miguel Tejada might make a famous flip to his catcher to save a series too if you gave him 95 more games of postseason chances than he's had. Jeter is great, just not great whenever he feels like it. But he's literally in a no-lose position now that we've erected the shield of clutch around him. And it doesn't much matter that he's had so much help that when he got hurt one Opening Day, the Yankees started 18-3 without him-the best start in the history of America's most fabled franchise.

Jeter gets credit for saving the Yankees with that flip to home plate but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since. And think of the times he's been bailed out. His four-strikeout performance against the Twins in the 2004 playoffs was erased because “choker” Alex Rodriguez lifted the Yankees with a monster performance in the same game. And once Aaron Boone hit the Game 7 homer to carry Jeter and the rest of the Yankees past the Red Sox, it didn't matter that Jeter was 7-for-30 with three runs and two RBIs. Perception takes a bat to reality. Pretty good deal if you can get it. We ignore that no player in baseball, not one, made more outs to end games last season with the tying or winning run on base than Jeter did. Instead, we celebrate his eighthinning homer to beat the Royals earlier this month with tabloid headlines about clutchness even though, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in both the tying and winning runs. Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason at-bats as Jeter: 462. In those at-bats,
Williams has six more homers, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBIs, two more runs and seven fewer strikeouts.

So why isn't he Captain Clutch? The moments that reaffirm belief, we keep. The ones that don't, we discard. Pressed to name the single most valuable intangible Jeter owns, Beane says, “He runs really hard every time to first base.” Beane knows that Jeter, although an exceptional player, doesn't “know how to win” or “raise his game.” In fact, Jeter is the same player in the postseason that he is in the regular season. Regular season: .314 batting average, .386 on-base percentage, .461 slugging percentage. Postseason: .307 batting average, .379 on-base percentage, .463 slugging percentage. Why? Because he has gotten to play virtually an entire regular-season's worth of postseason games. That isn't clutch. That's averages averaging out. But myth is more fun than math.

[Goalstopper]

so a big credible sources thinks the way we do. :D Nice

[See Red]

Well written article. He brought up some very good points, particularly the one about Bernie Williams.

[rician blast]

Well written article. He brought up some very good points, particularly the one about Bernie Williams.

what's surprising is that no Yankee fan has responded to dispute the numbers and say "you have to see him play every day, blah, blah, blah...intangibles, blah, blah, blah"

[He Hate Me]

because we've had this argument in the other thread already.

I'm not the type of guy who likes to repeat himself.

The media always does this anyway. They'll wait until someone is having a bad stretch (for Jeter, his fielding errors, Yankees not winning in 5 years) and then pounce on him. We're simply taking our lumps right now because quite frankly we're not that good a club right now. If Schilling has another bad start, there will be articles suggesting he focus more on baseball and less on talking to the media. That's how the media plays these things.

[Sky]

with the tight competition in the east, every good player/pitching ace/team is bound to have problems. Its a 3 team race unlike almost every other division in the majors

[rician blast]

because we've had this argument in the other thread already.

I'm not the type of guy who likes to repeat himself.

The media always does this anyway. They'll wait until someone is having a bad stretch (for Jeter, his fielding errors, Yankees not winning in 5 years) and then pounce on him. We're simply taking our lumps right now because quite frankly we're not that good a club right now. If Schilling has another bad start, there will be articles suggesting he focus more on baseball and less on talking to the media. That's how the media plays these things.

again, totally missing the point...its not about E's or the Yanks not winning it all despite their ridiculous payroll. Its about the characterization of a player being clutch when he is clearly not.

How you make the leap to Schilling and his foucs is pretty funny, though.

[TheRivernator]

I find it funny how the author decided to pull the line about Tejada making the same play as Jeter in the 2001 playoffs. Garbage, totally garbage. Tejada would have been at SS watching the throw sail in off line and late. Overall, though, the guy fails to really go into depth. He does make great points about how Jeter has averaged over the span of postseason successes and failures, but he fails to basically mention games where Jeter has had immense impact when he had the chance. Also, what he doesnt take into account is that Jeter is averaging his career average in the postseason, where you are efectively facing the best of the best team wise and pitching wise, so he isnt getting cheapies.

[Dana Kiecker]

Wow thats an awesome article..

[a700hitter]

I find it amusing that the Prima Dona is so celebrated for the "Flip" and the 2004 catch against the Red Sox. How do these catches stand up against the Willie Mays or Ron Swoboda catches? Those catches were part of World Championships. Neither of Jeter's catches were part of World Series, and in 2004 the Sox won it all for the first time in 86 years, so what is all the hub bub about. Yankee fans and the media have to put this guy and his accomplishments in some perspective. His two plays are just not "all that," and they don't deserve to stand the test of time like Mays' and Swoboda's catch.

[26 to 6]

I find it amusing that the Prima Dona is so celebrated for the "Flip" and the 2004 catch against the Red Sox. How do these catches stand up against the Willie Mays or Ron Swoboda catches? Those catches were part of World Championships. Neither of Jeter's catches were part of World Series, and in 2004 the Sox won it all for the first time in 86 years, so what is all the hub bub about. Yankee fans and the media have to put this guy and his accomplishments in some perspective. His two plays are just not "all that," and they don't deserve to stand the test of time like Mays' and Swoboda's catch.
His flip play in 2001 definately should be remembered. We were down 2 games to none in a best of 5 series. If he doesnt make that play we might lose.



And I didnt read the entire thread, but just by the title of this thread, why donet you ask BK Kim and Keith Foulke (among many oother pitchers) if Jeter is clutch. I wonder what they say.

And as for the PD/Prima Donna shit, Jeter is NOT a prima donna. He doesnt do anything to stand out. He shows no signs of selfishness or anything like that (although I know you'd dispute that by him not "volunteering" to move when we got A-Rod. But i'm sorry, but the guy was there for 8 years at that point and had won 4 championships, he has the right to want to stay at shortstop). You want a prima donna? Manny Ramirez. He's 38473845838457385763674873 times the prima donna that Derek Jeter is.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Jeter just got owned.

[Dana Kiecker]

Umm just in case you want to talk clutch... Jetes went 4 for 20 over games 4,5,6,7 in 2004ALCS...

The biggest shit the bed extraveganza since New Coke..


He took the pipe.

Arods Bettah!!! Clap clappy clap!~!

[empirestrikesback26]

It's coming from ESPN. Give me something from someone a tad bit unbiased and maybe I'd consider reading it.

[empirestrikesback26]

Jeter is clutch, and no article from EsoxPn is going to make me think otherwise. I've seen enough through the playoffs to convince me, but go on believing this nonsense if it makes you feel better.

[a700hitter]

His flip play in 2001 definately should be remembered. We were down 2 games to none in a best of 5 series. If he doesnt make that play we might lose.



And I didnt read the entire thread, but just by the title of this thread, why donet you ask BK Kim and Keith Foulke (among many oother pitchers) if Jeter is clutch. I wonder what they say.

And as for the PD/Prima Donna shit, Jeter is NOT a prima donna. He doesnt do anything to stand out. He shows no signs of selfishness or anything like that (although I know you'd dispute that by him not "volunteering" to move when we got A-Rod. But i'm sorry, but the guy was there for 8 years at that point and had won 4 championships, he has the right to want to stay at shortstop). You want a prima donna? Manny Ramirez. He's 38473845838457385763674873 times the prima donna that Derek Jeter is.The difference is that neither Red Sox fans nor the media celebrate Manny as the icon that Prima Donna is celebrated. Manny is an insane hitter and his numbers will overwhelmingly sweep him into the HOF. PD going to the HOF will depend on the strength of this bogus "Captain Intangibles" crap. The heart of the last Yankees dynasty is gone. It was the strong pitching not the Prima Dona SS.

BTW The Yankeew didn't wint the Championship in 2001 either, so who cares about it.

[Dana Kiecker]

Jeter is clutch, and no article from EsoxPn is going to make me think otherwise. I've seen enough through the playoffs to convince me, but go on believing this nonsense if it makes you feel better.
__________________

__________________

Why dont you go piss up a Yankees fan site then?

You're so fuckin smart and you think your team has got it?


Then leave us the fuck alone and go somewhere else and suffer.


You Yankee Trolls are like Tics man... the wetter it gets the more you spring up..


Blah.

[empirestrikesback26]

I wasn't complaining about anything, I was saying what I believe to be true which goes against this article.

[TheRivernator]

I find it funny how the author decided to pull the line about Tejada making the same play as Jeter in the 2001 playoffs. Garbage, totally garbage. Tejada would have been at SS watching the throw sail in off line and late. Overall, though, the guy fails to really go into depth. He does make great points about how Jeter has averaged over the span of postseason successes and failures, but he fails to basically mention games where Jeter has had immense impact when he had the chance. Also, what he doesnt take into account is that Jeter is averaging his career average in the postseason, where you are efectively facing the best of the best team wise and pitching wise, so he isnt getting cheapies.


I'll give you a game by game workup of what Jeter has done in his postseason career and you be the judge of his clutch value
10/2/1996 Yankees vs Rangers 12th inning in Yankee stadium, Jeter leads off with single and eventually scores the winning run.
10/4/1996 Yankees vs Rangers, 9th inning, Rangers lead 2-1. Jeter leads off with a single, hustles to third on Raines' single. He scored the tying run, Yankees won 3-2
10/9/1996 Yankees vs Orioles. 8th inning, Jeter hits game tying HR in the Jeffrey Maier game
10/11/1996 Yankees vs Orioles. 8th inning, Orioles lead 2-1. Jeter hits a 2 out double sparking a 4 run rally, yankees win 5-2
10/22/1996 Yankees vs Braves 8th inning, Yankees lead 2-1. Jeter leads off with a single and scores what ends up being the winning run as the yankees win 5-2
10/23/1996 Yankees vs Braves 6th inning, yankees down 6-0, Jeter leads off with a single and sparks a 3 run rally. Leyritz hits the game tying HR in the 8th. In the 10th inning of that game, Jeter singled to extend the inning and eventually scored the 8th run, yankees win 8-6 in 10
10/26/1996 Yankees vs Braves 3rd inning. Jeter with an RBI single to give the yankees a lead. He steals second and scores on a single barely beating the throw on a great slide. Yankees won the game 3-2 and won the WS.
He was the rally starter in 7 of the 11 wins in the 96 postseason

9/30/1997 Yankees vs Cleveland 6th inning. Game tied 6-6. Jeter hits the eventual game winning HR, yankees win 8-6
Yankees lose series 3-2 to cleveland

10/6/1998 Yankees vs Cleveland 1st inning. Knobby and Jeter lead the game off with back to back singles sparking a 5 run 1st and the yankees never look backand win 7-2
10/13/1998 Yankees vs Cleveland Jeter singles with one out in the 1st inning and sparks a 2 run first inning, yankees lead 2-0. 6th inning, yankees lead 6-5. Jeter hits a 2 run triple and later scores, effectively putting the game out of reach, yankees eliminate the Indians 9-5
10/17/1998 Yankees vs Padres, 7th inning game tied 5-5. Jeter singles and eventually scored the go ahead run. Yankees go on to win game 1 of the WS
10/18/1998 Yankees vs Padres. Derek Jeter singles home Chuck Knoblauch in the 2nd inning for the 4th run of the game, which was the eventual game winner
10/21/1998 Yankees vs Padres. 0-0 in the 6th inning. Jeter singles and scores the eventual game winner as the yankees win the world series.

10/5/1999 Yankees vs Rangers. Up 1-0, Jeter sparks a 2 run rally in the 5th with a single and starts a 4 run rally in the 6th with a walk as the yankees defeat the Rangers in game 1 of the ALDS
10/6/1999 Yankees vs Rangers. Up 2-1 in the 8th inning, Jeter singles and scores an important insurance run to put the game away.
10/9/1999 Yankees vs Rangers. Jeter hits a one out triple in the 1st inning sparking a 3 run rally. The yankees win 3-0 and sweep the rangers
10/13/1999 Yankees vs Red Sox. Red sox lead 3-2 in the 7th inning, when Jeter hits the game tying RBI single off Derek Lowe. Yankees won in the 10th.
10/17/1999 Yankees vs Red Sox. Yankees up 3-2 in the 9th inning. Knobby and Jeter hit back to back 1 out singles sparking a 6 run rally to put the game away.
Yankees win series 4-1
10/23/1999 Yankees vs Braves 8th inning, Braves lead 1-0. Jeter hits the game tying single and eventually scores as the yankees win.
10/24/1999 Yankees vs Braves. Knobby and Jeter lead the game off with back to back singles and spark a 3 run rally and the yankees never looked back.
10/27/1999 Yankees vs Braves. 3rd inning 0-0. Knobby and Jeter hit back to back singles and score in a 3 run inning. Yankees win 4-1 and sweep the world series

10/6/2000 Yankees vs A's. Down 1-0 in the 3rd, Jeter hits a go ahead 2 run single with his only hit of the game. Yankees went on to win
10/8/2000 Yankees vs A's. Jeter sparks 6 run rally with a walk and yankees win 7-5
10/11/2000 Yankees vs M's. 8th inning, Jeter hits 2 run homer during a Yankee 7 run rally to win the game 7-1.
10/14/2000 Yankees vs M's. 5th inning 0-0 game, Derek Jeter hits go ahead 3 run homer with his only hit of the game. Walks to lead off an 8th inning 2 run rally to put the game out of reach
10/17/2000 Yankees vs M's. 7th inning, yankees down 4-3, Jeter keeps an inning alive with a single to move Vizcaino to 3rd base. Jeter eventually scores the game winning run as the yankees win the series in 6
10/21/2000 Yankees vs Mets 6th inning, 0-0 game, Jeter walks to spark 2 run inning, yankees end up winning the game in extras...
10/22/2000 Yankees vs Mets 8th inning, Jeter hits a double and eventually scores the game winning run, yankees win 6-5...
10/24/2000 Yankees vs Mets 3rd inning, Jeter scores game tying run after singling. Yankees end up losing 4-2.
10/25/2000 Yankees vs Mets Jeter leads off game with HR. He also hits a triple in the 3rd inning and scored the eventual game winning run, yankees won 3-2.
10/26/2000 Yankees vs Mets. Yankees down 2-1 in the 6th inning and Jeter hits a game tying solo homer. Yankees win the series on a sojo single and Jeter had a 14 game world series hit streak to this point.
Jeter was the WS MVP
10/13/2001 Yankees vs A's. THE PLAY, is all I have to say. Yankees down 2-0 in the series and Yankees up 1-0 in the game in the 7th inning and Jeter makes a ranging, out of position flip to Posada on a relay from an errant throw. Posada tagged Jeremy Giambi out at home barly with what would have been the game tying run. Yankees win 1-0
10/14/2001 Yankees vs A's. Jeter leads the 3rd inning off with a single and scores the eventual game winning run on his only hit of the game
10/15/2001 Yankees vs A's. Jeter drives in eventual game winning run on a sac fly. Yankees win 5-3
10/22/2001. Yankees vs M's, 0-0, 3rd inning, Jeter gets Yankees on the board with a sac fly and the yankees never looked back
10/31/2001. Yankees vs DBacks. Bot 10th, Jeter hits walkoff HR against BH Kim, yankees win 4-3
11/4/2001. Yankees vs DBacks, game 7. 7th inning, DBacks up 1-0. Jeter leads off wth a single and scores the tying run in his only hit of the game. Memory has erased what happened in that 9th inning....

10/1/2002. Yankees vs Angels. Jeter leads off the 4th inning with a walk and scores the go ahead run. Same game, 8th inning, Jeter walks and scores winning run in the only game the yankees won in the 2002 postseason

10/9/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox. Jeter singles with only hit of the game and scores the eventual game winning run.
10/11/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox. Jeter homers to tie the game in the 3rd inning.
10/13/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox. Jeter doubles in a run to tie the game at 1 in the 5th inning. The red sox go on to win the game
10/16/2003 Yankees vs Red Sox game 7. In Jeter's only hit of the game off Pedro in the yankee 8th, he hit a one out double to spark a 3 run game tying rally. We all know how it ended.
10/21/2003 Yankees vs Marlins. Jeter scores 3 runs, game-tying run in the 4th after a one out double, the winning run in the 8th after a 1 out double, and an insurance run in the 9th after a HBP, yankees won 6-1.
10/23/2003 Yankees vs Marlins 9th inning. Down 6-3, Jeter hits a single with 0 outs and scores in a rally that is eventually thwarted by Urbina.
10/6/2004 Yankees vs Twins Jeter hits game tying HR in 1st inning. He also walked in the bottom of the 12th inning with the yankees down a run and eventually scored the game winning run on a line drive by Matsui that was thrown home, but Jeter beat the throw with a great slide to win the game
10/18/2004 Yankees vs Red Sox Jeter hits 3 run double in the top of the 6th inning in a 2-1 ball game off Pedro Martinez, it was his only hit of the game as he went 1 for 7 and the yankees lost in extras.
10/19/2004 Yankees vs Red Sox Yankees down 3, Jeter hits an RBI single setting up the arod bitch slap play which essentially ends the rally.
10/7/2005 Yankees vs Angels Jeter's RBI single and subsequent run scored spark a 4 run yankee inning bringing the game from 5-0 to 5-4. The yankees would take the lead in this game, but eventually lose.
10/9/2005 Yankees vs Angels. Tie game, 7th inning, Jeter hits a go-ahead and eventually the game winning groundout in an 0-4 performance, but the yankees won 3-2.
10/10/2005 Yankees vs Angels. Jeter hits sac fly in 2nd inning to put yankees ahead 2-0. He homers in the 7th inning to close the gap to 5-3 and he leads off the 9th with a single with the yankees down by 2. A-choke comes up next and GIDP and the rest is history....

[ORS]

10/26/1996 Yankees vs Braves 3rd inning. Jeter with an RBI single to give the yankees a lead. He steals second and scores on a single barely beating the throw on a great slide. Yankees won the game 3-2 and won the WS.
3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

:lol: Wow, maybe Riv just thought we'd be impressed by the length of the post.

[a700hitter]

Nice long post from Riv., but out of the entire list I remember maybe one or two, and I am an insane obsessed baseball fan. There is nothing extraordinary on the list. The ones that I remember were not part of winning a World Series. A clutch player steps it up to a new level in big games. The fact is that PD's stats for post-season are just about the same as his regular season performance. He doesn't step it up to a new level.

[26 to 6]

Jeter is clutch, and no article from EsoxPn is going to make me think otherwise. I've seen enough through the playoffs to convince me, but go on believing this nonsense if it makes you feel better.
PRetty much. Some anti-Yankee faggot on ESPN isnt going to tell me that what my eyes have seen for years is a lie.

[26 to 6]

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.
Well hey, if he doesnt do that maybe we dont win the game. Clutch isnt defined as coming through in the late innings, its coming through when your team needs it.



Good post Riv, thanks for that one.
Also, I love how none of them had an intelligent response.

[MC Hammer]

You guys are HILARIOUS!

"I DON'T CARE WHAT NUMBERS SAY ... I KNOW WHAT I SAW!!!"

I honestly don't understand how someone can look at numbers that are clearly printed infront of them, and say that they don't believe it. You sound like old men. This guy gave you facts ... he gave you Derek Jeter's post season stats ... what about them do you not believe? Do you think ESPN let this guy shave some numbers off somewhere? ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID!? ... or just blinded by those pinstripe glasses?

[a700hitter]

PRetty much. Some anti-Yankee faggot on ESPN isnt going to tell me that what my eyes have seen for years is a lie.It's not your eyes that are the problem. It's the rose-colored glasses that you are watching him through that are the problem. The cold-slap of statisics and player polls are apparently too much for PD worshippers to handle.

[26 to 6]

You guys are HILARIOUS!

"I DON'T CARE WHAT NUMBERS SAY ... I KNOW WHAT I SAW!!!"

I honestly don't understand how someone can look at numbers that are clearly printed infront of them, and say that they don't believe it. You sound like old men. This guy gave you facts ... he gave you Derek Jeter's post season stats ... what about them do you not believe? Do you think ESPN let this guy shave some numbers off somewhere? ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID!? ... or just blinded by those pinstripe glasses?
Riv gave us some facts as well. And those facts clearly show that Jeter gets the job done and does his part. You dont have to bat .873 and have 2729832 Postseason home runs to be clutch. Jeter once said "Love is doing the things that dont show up in the box score." Jeter does those little things very well. Thats why he's so good. I've seen him produce for us in the postseason for years, and regardless of what stats you throw out there, I know he is a productive clutch performer in the postseason.

[26 to 6]

It's not your eyes that are the problem. It's the rose-colored glasses that you are watching him through that are the problem. The cold-slap of statisics and player polls are apparently too much for PD worshippers to handle.
You guys always accuse us of having the "rose-colored, pinstripe glasses" on, but maybe its not our bias thats the problem. Maybe the problem here is your Anti-Yankee bias. God forbid you admit that Jeter is a hell of a player and has not failed to do good things in the postseason. Would it hurt that bad?

[ORS]

Well hey, if he doesnt do that maybe we dont win the game. Clutch isnt defined as coming through in the late innings, its coming through when your team needs it.



Good post Riv, thanks for that one.
Also, I love how none of them had an intelligent response.
Your team needs an hit in every AB, and it needs you to field every ball in the field. Therefore, everyone with a hit is clutch. YAY FOR EVERYONE!

Whether you like it or not, clutch is pretty much accepted as a combination of hitting w/ RISP and hitting in Close & Late situations. Jeter's career stats in those situations are lower than his career overall stats. You cannot deny that fact.

You want to know what I love about stats? They aren't biased. They aren't subject to hero worship and selective memory. They account every walk-off hit/HR just as much as they account for every game ending GIDP with a RISP.

No intelligent responses? Funny, we all seem to grasp the concept of clutch as currently defined. You, on the other hand, reject sound analysis because it challenges your hero-worship of a player on your team. Now who's being ignorant?

[empirestrikesback26]

I see them, and I also see 4 World Series which he was a major part in winning with yes, clutch hits. So, I don't care what those numbers say. I honestly don't. They don't take away 4 world series.

[a700hitter]

You guys always accuse us of having the "rose-colored, pinstripe glasses" on, but maybe its not our bias thats the problem. Maybe the problem here is your Anti-Yankee bias. God forbid you admit that Jeter is a hell of a player and has not failed to do good things in the postseason. Would it hurt that bad?Jeter is a very solid smart ballplayer. He certainly plays the game the right way. He's just not the icon that Yankee fans and the media have made him out to be. He's had more post-season opportunities than any player in history, so he's done some good things. He's just not that great. People don't make a special trip to see PD take batting practice. They go to see Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, Bonds. They went to games to see Ricky steal bases, Ozzie field, etc. There is nothing outstanding about PD...nothing. He's very good, but not great. Mo is great, and IMO Bernie's career is closer to great than PD.

[MC Hammer]

Riv gave us some facts as well. And those facts clearly show that Jeter gets the job done and does his part.
Would you ever use the words "gets the job done" and "does his part" for a guy who's talked about as one of the greatest post season players of all time? His numbers show that you are correct in using those terms though.


You dont have to bat .873 and have 2729832 Postseason home runs to be clutch. Jeter once said "Love is doing the things that dont show up in the box score." Jeter does those little things very well. Thats why he's so good.
Jesus Christ now you're quoting the guy. Maybe you should put down the Kool Aid before you have this discussion.


I've seen him produce for us in the postseason for years, and regardless of what stats you throw out there, I know he is a productive clutch performer in the postseason.
If a player produces you'll be able to look at his numbers and say ... "hey, there's his production".

Statistics seperate people talking out of their asses and homers(like you) from actual baseball fans.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

I guess winning four rings, being the All-Star Game MVP in 2001, the World Series MVP in 2000, the Rookie of the Year in 1996, an All-Star since 1998, and the captain of the New York Yankees just isn't good enough for good ol' ESoxPN.

Oh, and coming from a guy who played parts of six seasons as a reserve outfielder from 1984 to 1989, was on the bench for two World Series wins - with the Twins in 1987, and the A's in 1989, and completed his 148-game career with a .219 batting average and 3 home runs, I doubt he'd know an intangible if it hit him between the eyes.

Damn! It's lonely at the top.

[He Hate Me]

again, totally missing the point...its not about E's or the Yanks not winning it all despite their ridiculous payroll. Its about the characterization of a player being clutch when he is clearly not.

How you make the leap to Schilling and his foucs is pretty funny, though.

... sigh

nvm

[See Red]

I guess winning four rings, being the All-Star Game MVP in 2001, the World Series MVP in 2000, the Rookie of the Year in 1996, an All-Star since 1998, and the captain of the New York Yankees just isn't good enough for good ol' ESoxPN.

'ESoxPN' is the one who's been sucking his dick for being something he isn't.

You lost me when you brought up the fact that he was the All-Star Game MVP in 2001.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

You lost me when you brought up the fact that he was the All-Star Game MVP in 2001.
Ahh my bad, he's had so many clutch years I forget which years he got awards for what. I believe it was 2000, not 2001.

[See Red]

Ahh my bad, he's had so many clutch years I forget which years he got awards for what. I believe it was 2000, not 2001.

No, no, no, you may have very well gotten the year right... it's the fact that it's an All-Star game. An, at that time, completely meaningless game.

[ARod2212]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

[See Red]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

Not necessarily, but given the chances he's had and the circumstances, what he did in game's 4 and 5 alone is as impressive as Jeter's entire postseason resumé. Don't mistake the number of opportunities to shine for how bright they've shined when given the chance.

[TheRivernator]

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

So you cannot be clutch in the 3rd inning? If you drive in the go-ahead run in the 3rd inning and your pitching closes the door from then on out, is that an indictment against him for not being clutch? Seriously, you guys have such a bias against Jeter that you cannot look at things in perspective. Many times, the above hits were his only hits of the game. Basically, what the above shows is that he is not the guy finishing the rallies like your typical "clutch" player, but he is the guy starting them. He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them. I cannot tell you how many of the above hits were the only hits of the game for him. I think it was Dana who said that Jeter was 4 for 20 in games 4-7 in the ALCS, but one of those hits was a go-ahead 2 run double in the 7th inning against pedro which set up the choke of game 5. Everyone likes to take his stats as a whole and say someone is not clutch, but I always thought the definition of clutch was getting the hits when you truly need them. When you are trailing at any time of the game and you need a rally. At the beginning of the game to spark a rally, in the middle of the game to tie things up or go ahead, or at the end of the game when your team is running out of outs. Hence, if you are going to use the term clutch, then you arent using it properly. Jeter may not be as big a postseason horse as he is made out to be, but he is certainly the guy you want up there when the games are on the line and you need a rally starter. So for all you who want to try and find chinks in his armor or want to spit on his accomplishments, take a look at the world series runs and how integral he was in late game comebacks and how he was the man driving the rallies of our 4 world championship teams.....

[TheRivernator]

Your team needs an hit in every AB, and it needs you to field every ball in the field. Therefore, everyone with a hit is clutch. YAY FOR EVERYONE!

Whether you like it or not, clutch is pretty much accepted as a combination of hitting w/ RISP and hitting in Close & Late situations. Jeter's career stats in those situations are lower than his career overall stats. You cannot deny that fact.

You want to know what I love about stats? They aren't biased. They aren't subject to hero worship and selective memory. They account every walk-off hit/HR just as much as they account for every game ending GIDP with a RISP.

No intelligent responses? Funny, we all seem to grasp the concept of clutch as currently defined. You, on the other hand, reject sound analysis because it challenges your hero-worship of a player on your team. Now who's being ignorant?

again, his regular season numbers with close and late or RISP or whatever are not the topic being brought up here. It is the postseason numbers that are on trial here.

[jsinger121]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

Jeter has had a ton of playoff appearances but not alot stands out other than his flip and his homerun against the orioles and dbacks and the homerun against the Orioles should have counted in the first place. Oritz won the Angels series, games 4 and 5 in the ALCS, had a 3 run homerun in the G1 of the WS, had the DP with Suppan sleeping at third. Jeter is a very good player but Ortiz what he did in 1 October should definitely whatever Jeter did because he carried the Red Sox the entire playoffs.

[Mr Crunchy]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

john smoltz comes to mind here
bernie and posada i'd take for the money before ""the 2001 all star game mvp""

jeffrey maier??
jesus christ
another proud legacy for yankee fans to fall back on
didnt rudy make him mayor for the day??

and you wonder why the other 250,000,000 americans despise nyc

youre not really comparing jeter with ortiz are you?

i dont remember ANYONE ever getting ortiz out when it mattered
i'd be willing to bet jetsey was in the top 5 in making game ending outs last year however

[ORS]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.
The article does. Bernie Wiliams. I guess like most Yankee fans, you don't bother to read the article when you don't like the title and just make assumptions from there.

EDIT: Typo.

[ORS]

So you cannot be clutch in the 3rd inning? If you drive in the go-ahead run in the 3rd inning and your pitching closes the door from then on out, is that an indictment against him for not being clutch? Seriously, you guys have such a bias against Jeter that you cannot look at things in perspective. Many times, the above hits were his only hits of the game. Basically, what the above shows is that he is not the guy finishing the rallies like your typical "clutch" player, but he is the guy starting them. He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them. I cannot tell you how many of the above hits were the only hits of the game for him. I think it was Dana who said that Jeter was 4 for 20 in games 4-7 in the ALCS, but one of those hits was a go-ahead 2 run double in the 7th inning against pedro which set up the choke of game 5. Everyone likes to take his stats as a whole and say someone is not clutch, but I always thought the definition of clutch was getting the hits when you truly need them. When you are trailing at any time of the game and you need a rally. At the beginning of the game to spark a rally, in the middle of the game to tie things up or go ahead, or at the end of the game when your team is running out of outs. Hence, if you are going to use the term clutch, then you arent using it properly. Jeter may not be as big a postseason horse as he is made out to be, but he is certainly the guy you want up there when the games are on the line and you need a rally starter. So for all you who want to try and find chinks in his armor or want to spit on his accomplishments, take a look at the world series runs and how integral he was in late game comebacks and how he was the man driving the rallies of our 4 world championship teams.....
He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them.

Unless he's hitting HRs, that's bullshit. Someone has to do something at the plate to bring him home, and he has no control over that.

Why is it we are biased in this instead of you? We all admit he's a very good player, but we agree that the media myth about him being clutch is nothing more than him getting a season's worth of chances in the postseason to make memorable plays. Is he a choker? Absolutely not, because his overall numbers in the post season pretty much match his career numbers. That doesn't make him clutch though.


again, his regular season numbers with close and late or RISP or whatever are not the topic being brought up here. It is the postseason numbers that are on trial here.
His splits in those categories for his postseason stats are even more unflattering than career numbers, so it is still valid.

EDIT: Typo.

[Mr Crunchy]

DONT GET ME WRONG
we'd love to have jetsey here as a shortstop
hes certainly better than alex gonzales....hes a solid ballplayer
hes good for the game,good for the yankees and good for ny
i'd rather see arod out there at bat than derek but neither 1 of them frighten boston fans

he also hasnt won shit without paul oneil and tino and andy petite has he??

he does what hes supposed to do,occasionally does the outstanding and we need to thank him for diving into the crowd that nite in the bronx to illustrate how much of a dog nomar became.....

[TheRivernator]

He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them.

Unless he's hitting HRs, that's bullshit. Someone has to do something at the plate to bring him home, and he has no control over that.
EDIT: Typo.

You are right, somebody has to come through. But at the same time, sombody has to start the rally in the first place and Jeter always seems to be the one to do it. If you want to see an example of it blowing up, look at last yr. Yankees down 2 in the 9th and Jeter leads off with a single and is promptly doubled up on the ARod choke job. The fact remains, Jeter is the guy who will step up in the postseason and get on base, period. 8th inning, down a run, he'll walk, get HBP, or single for the most part and get on base. Somebody has to drive him in, absolutely, and that is why Bernie and him together have been an amazing combo. And for those of you who want to use Ortiz as a reference, lets not forget that he was pretty much non-existant in 2003 and last yrs postseason (even though his overall stats were good) he was basically a choke artist, going 0 for 3 in the last 2 games when the sox were trailing by a run. I know, small sample size, but he couldnt even get on base to start something. Listen, I'm not advocating for Jeter to be considered the best postseason player of all time (Mantle has that), I am saying that he is the best fire starter in the postseason's recent memory. Nobody has shown the ability to start a rally when their team needs them like he has. Granted, he relies on someone else to drive him in, but therein liesa the question. Is it not clutch to start the rally? I think it is, and when he continually does it even though he may have choked early on in the game, does that make him non-clutch. A 1 for 5 may go into the books, but that 1 might be the single in the 9th where he would come around to score the winning run. Break it down and look before you blindly follow an article created to incite....

[ORS]

You are right, somebody has to come through. But at the same time, sombody has to start the rally in the first place and Jeter always seems to be the one to do it. If you want to see an example of it blowing up, look at last yr. Yankees down 2 in the 9th and Jeter leads off with a single and is promptly doubled up on the ARod choke job. The fact remains, Jeter is the guy who will step up in the postseason and get on base, period. 8th inning, down a run, he'll walk, get HBP, or single for the most part and get on base. Somebody has to drive him in, absolutely, and that is why Bernie and him together have been an amazing combo. And for those of you who want to use Ortiz as a reference, lets not forget that he was pretty much non-existant in 2003 and last yrs postseason (even though his overall stats were good) he was basically a choke artist, going 0 for 3 in the last 2 games when the sox were trailing by a run. I know, small sample size, but he couldnt even get on base to start something. Listen, I'm not advocating for Jeter to be considered the best postseason player of all time (Mantle has that), I am saying that he is the best fire starter in the postseason's recent memory. Nobody has shown the ability to start a rally when their team needs them like he has. Granted, he relies on someone else to drive him in, but therein liesa the question. Is it not clutch to start the rally? I think it is, and when he continually does it even though he may have choked early on in the game, does that make him non-clutch. A 1 for 5 may go into the books, but that 1 might be the single in the 9th where he would come around to score the winning run. Break it down and look before you blindly follow an article created to incite....
Come on man. Do you really think he has some special ability to start a rally? Perhaps it is due to lineup construction. He's alway hit near the top of the order, and the big/good bats have followed him his whole career. Think that may play a little role in his "rally starting ability"? And you tell me to break it down. Funny.

[MC Hammer]

So you cannot be clutch in the 3rd inning?
No.

Clutch - a tense critical situation

The 3rd inning is never a tense critical situation.

[TheRivernator]

Come on man. Do you really think he has some special ability to start a rally? Perhaps it is due to lineup construction. He's alway hit near the top of the order, and the big/good bats have followed him his whole career. Think that may play a little role in his "rally starting ability"? And you tell me to break it down. Funny.

It definitely plays a role. This isnt Jeter putting everyone on his back and saying, I WILL GET YOU TO THE PROMISED LAND ROAR!!!!! This is him being up at the right times and getting on base, which, due to his solid lineup following him, usually results in him scoring clutch runs. You cannot dispute the facts I produced, because they are fact. Hence, I'll continue to believe that in the playoffs, late in a game, there is nobody I'd rather have leading off an inning than him, period. If I could take any hitter in the game and have them leadoff the 9th when my team is down a run, I'd take him. He wont hit the tater, he may not even hit the ball period. But he'll get on base and be a pest....

[MC Hammer]

It definitely plays a role. This isnt Jeter putting everyone on his back and saying, I WILL GET YOU TO THE PROMISED LAND ROAR!!!!! This is him being up at the right times and getting on base, which, due to his solid lineup following him, usually results in him scoring clutch runs. You cannot dispute the facts I produced, because they are fact. Hence, I'll continue to believe that in the playoffs, late in a game, there is nobody I'd rather have leading off an inning than him, period. If I could take any hitter in the game and have them leadoff the 9th when my team is down a run, I'd take him. He wont hit the tater, he may not even hit the ball period. But he'll get on base and be a pest....
Aren't you the one arguing facts in the first place?

[TheRivernator]

No.

Clutch - a tense critical situation

The 3rd inning is never a tense critical situation.

Clutch is defined as...a tight or critical situation in webster's dictionary.

If he scores the go ahead run in a tie game, I would consider it a tight situation. Granted, if he scored the game winning run in the 3rd inning, the pitcher was more clutch, but we arent arguing who is more clutch, we are arguing if he is clutch....

[TheRivernator]

Aren't you the one arguing facts in the first place?

No, I am arguing that his stats dont explain the whole thing. Kinda like how you guys were explaining how ARod's superior stats last yr didnt stand up to when Ortiz put up his stats (BTW, I agreed with you and thought Ortiz was the MVP).

[MC Hammer]

No, I am arguing that his stats dont explain the whole thing. Kinda like how you guys were explaining how ARod's superior stats last yr didnt stand up to when Ortiz put up his stats (BTW, I agreed with you and thought Ortiz was the MVP).
I don't believe I said anything about Ortiz deserving award for something other than his numbers. I simply thought that he should not be slighted because he doesn't play the field.

[ORS]

It definitely plays a role. This isnt Jeter putting everyone on his back and saying, I WILL GET YOU TO THE PROMISED LAND ROAR!!!!! This is him being up at the right times and getting on base, which, due to his solid lineup following him, usually results in him scoring clutch runs. You cannot dispute the facts I produced, because they are fact. Hence, I'll continue to believe that in the playoffs, late in a game, there is nobody I'd rather have leading off an inning than him, period. If I could take any hitter in the game and have them leadoff the 9th when my team is down a run, I'd take him. He wont hit the tater, he may not even hit the ball period. But he'll get on base and be a pest....
Shocker. The guy's got a career OBP of .380+. I'd take him too, but I'd take him for his stats, not his Jeterian Clutchness.

[TheRivernator]

I don't believe I said anything about Ortiz deserving award for something other than his numbers. I simply thought that he should not be slighted because he doesn't play the field.


Cmon now. The full out barrage by boston beat writers was about Ortiz' performance in the clutch over ARod's "stat-piling". Don't get a holier than thou attitude and start saying that you didnt buy the hype (I did, Ortiz was more valuable in the clutch)....

[rician blast]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

Mariano Rivera

[TheRivernator]

Shocker. The guy's got a career OBP of .380+. I'd take him too, but I'd take him for his stats, not his Jeterian Clutchness.

So what explains the fact that he just seems to get on base when needed the most. If he averaged .380 OBP, why does it seem that he reaches base and subsequently scores important runs in important games in the postseason more often than not? Why does it seem that if he reaches base one time in a game, it just so happens to be in the 7th or 8th inning of a tight game and he eventually scores the game winning or game tying run? I have posted his triumphs, dispute them.....

[TheRivernator]

Mariano Rivera

I love Mo, good choice...

[rician blast]

Clutch is defined as...a tight or critical situation in webster's dictionary.

If he scores the go ahead run in a tie game, I would consider it a tight situation. Granted, if he scored the game winning run in the 3rd inning, the pitcher was more clutch, but we arent arguing who is more clutch, we are arguing if he is clutch....

What kina definition does Wesbter's have for:

on base percentage?
RISP?
LOB?

For krist sake riv, its a fukin dictionary and has NOTHING to do with baseball? So Wesbter's definition of clutch means nothing here.

Again, the numbers do not lie...Jeter is a ver, very good ballplayer...one we'd like to have in Boston...but he ain't the clutch performer the ball-washing NY media portrays him to be.

[rician blast]

Rivera has been the Yankees MVP year after year for a number of years now.

[rician blast]

I guess winning four rings, being the All-Star Game MVP in 2001, the World Series MVP in 2000, the Rookie of the Year in 1996, an All-Star since 1998, and the captain of the New York Yankees just isn't good enough for good ol' ESoxPN.

Oh, and coming from a guy who played parts of six seasons as a reserve outfielder from 1984 to 1989, was on the bench for two World Series wins - with the Twins in 1987, and the A's in 1989, and completed his 148-game career with a .219 batting average and 3 home runs, I doubt he'd know an intangible if it hit him between the eyes.

Damn! It's lonely at the top.

Pin:

Its more a testament to the teams he has been a part of. We've said again and again we like Jeter, we respect him, and I wish he'd been in a Sox uni for the past 10 years...but the numbers clearly show he isn't as clutch as you are being lead to believe by the media.

[TheRivernator]

What kina definition does Wesbter's have for:

on base percentage?
RISP?
LOB?

For krist sake riv, its a fukin dictionary and has NOTHING to do with baseball? So Wesbter's definition of clutch means nothing here.

Again, the numbers do not lie...Jeter is a ver, very good ballplayer...one we'd like to have in Boston...but he ain't the clutch performer the ball-washing NY media portrays him to be.

He is perceived as a savior. He isnt a savior, but he is certainly clutch....

[TheRivernator]

Pin:

Its more a testament to the teams he has been a part of. We've said again and again we like Jeter, we respect him, and I wish he'd been in a Sox uni for the past 10 years...but the numbers clearly show he isn't as clutch as you are being lead to believe by the media.

you keep hiding behind the numbers, I have shown you what those numbers manifested. If he goes 1 for 5 with a single that just so happened to be the game winning run, he hit .200 for the game, but he had the single most important hit of that game. See where I am getting? His stats dont tell the whole story, you have to look at each individual game...

[rician blast]

you keep hiding behind the numbers, I have shown you what those numbers manifested. If he goes 1 for 5 with a single that just so happened to be the game winning run, he hit .200 for the game, but he had the single most important hit of that game. See where I am getting? His stats dont tell the whole story, you have to look at each individual game...

I understand your logic, but the example you give above actually goes against your own argument.

Why?

Because the numbers show that despite his solid statistics (BA, OBP, etc.) he does not often come up with that game-winning hit you refer to and his performance with RISP, late, in close games, is not great.

You all seem to take offense to ANY use of baseball's clutch measurements...as if it is an indictment of Jeter's overall value and worth.

I can't make it any more plain. He's a tremendous player, and great team-player...he is what he is, and we'd love to have had him in Boston.

But he hasn't proved himself to be anywhere near as "clutch" as you are lead to believe.

[Mr Crunchy]

any idea where he ranked in making the 3rd out in the 9th inning last year??

[a700hitter]

Playing at the same level in the post season as the regular season is not clutch. It just means that he doesn't choke like Barry Bonds used to choke in his Pirate days. A clutch post-season performer is someone that raises the level of his play from his regular season play. A good example is Al Weis. In 10 seasons, he was a .219 hitter with 7 career HRs. In the 1969 World Series, he hit .455 with a Homer off Dave McNally in the 7th inning to tie the final game. That's a clutch ballplayer. Billy Martin was a clutch post season performer. Jeter is not a choker, but he is not Mr. Clutch either.

[TheRivernator]

Playing at the same level in the post season as the regular season is not clutch. It just means that he doesn't choke like Barry Bonds used to choke in his Pirate days. A clutch post-season performer is someone that raises the level of his play from his regular season play. A good example is Al Weis. In 10 seasons, he was a .219 hitter with 7 career HRs. In the 1969 World Series, he hit .455 with a Homer off Dave McNally in the 7th inning to tie the final game. That's a clutch ballplayer. Billy Martin was a clutch post season performer. Jeter is not a choker, but he is not Mr. Clutch either.

but if you took Al Weis and had him play in 115 games in the postseason, he'd end up being that .219 hitter overall. My point is, if you get enough opps, you will revert to your career baseline. BUT, if your hits or walks or plays are the impetus for game winning rallies, or your hits are timely, then you are clutch. Look at the individual game performances that I pined through yesterday. He had one game where he was 1 for 7, but that one hit was a 3 run go ahead double against Pedro. That is my point. The stats would say that he is 1 for 7 in that game, but he got the most important hit for us. Unfortunately our pen couldnt hold it. He always seems to be the guy who gets that hit in the right spots for us. Usually when he is leading off an inning where the game is close, he'll be the guy to get on base. Our lineup takes a ton of credit too, in that they can get him home, but you cannot dispute the fact that he is one of the best postseason rally starters in the history of the game and his rally starting ability is the single most important factor for our offense being able to put up enough runs for us to win 4 WS.....

BTW, Mr. Crunch, he was horrible at the end of games in the regular season, but he was good in that angels series. One of the only ones for that matter...

[rician blast]

any idea where he ranked in making the 3rd out in the 9th inning last year??

If I recall it was....ummmm....maybe first in MLB?

[TheRivernator]

If I recall it was....ummmm....maybe first in MLB?

arent we talking about postseason?

[rician blast]

Look at the individual game performances that I pined through yesterday. He had one game where he was 1 for 7, but that one hit was a 3 run go ahead double against Pedro. ..


Yes, that hit would be a "clutch" hit.

And the stats show that he is NOT proficient at supplying that clutch hit, but is proficient at piling up impressive overall stats...just not in the context of "clutch".

[TheRivernator]

Yes, that hit would be a "clutch" hit.

And the stats show that he is NOT proficient at supplying that clutch hit, but is proficient at piling up impressive overall stats...just not in the context of "clutch".

you are hopeless...

[Mr Crunchy]

i read somewhere that he was 1-62 this century with the chance to win the game after the 8th inning...
any truth to this??

joe girardi was clutch
bobby grich was clutch
mark .210 belanger was clutch
bernie is clutch
ortiz is clutch
billy mueller is the definition of clutch
tony perez from the old reds team was clutch
jetsey is a damn fine ballplayer who is an asset to any team he plays for but as defined by the above players performances he doesnt do it for me
again
i'd take him in a minute(not for 19M) but there are other guys like scott broscious(Sp) who i know we cant get out when it matters...jetsey is beatable when it matters

[TheRivernator]

i read somewhere that he was 1-62 this century with the chance to win the game after the 8th inning...
any truth to this??

joe girardi was clutch
bobby grich was clutch
mark .210 belanger was clutch
bernie is clutch
ortiz is clutch
billy mueller is the definition of clutch
tony perez from the old reds team was clutch
jetsey is a damn fine ballplayer who is an asset to any team he plays for but as defined by the above players performances he doesnt do it for me
again
i'd take him in a minute(not for 19M) but there are other guys like scott broscious(Sp) who i know we cant get out when it matters...jetsey is beatable when it matters

in the regular season...

[Mr Crunchy]

1-62 is accurate mj??
.016
the defense rests

[a700hitter]

but if you took Al Weis and had him play in 115 games in the postseason, he'd end up being that .219 hitter overall. My point is, if you get enough opps, you will revert to your career baseline.Most players do not get enough opportunities for them to revert to their career baseline. In most player's careers, there are few post-season opportunities. The ones who perform above their level are the ones that deserve to be called clutch. The ones that perform below their regular season level are chokers. Jeter is somewhere in the middle. He just not a legendary post-season performer. He has just had the most opportunities. Bernie, on the other hand is very clutche. His regular season HR/AB ratio is 1/27, but his post season ratio is 1/22. That is stepping it up to a different level.

[TheRivernator]

1-62 is accurate mj??
.016
the defense rests

I dont think it is accurate, but the point is, we arent talking about the regular season here....

[Mr Crunchy]

when you hit .016 for your career in the 8th and after with runners in scoring position i think its safe to disqualify you as being ""clutch""
regular season,october or march
#s dont always tell the story but .016 speaks for itself
not .116
not .216
no
0.016.....1for62.......let me get you the link
im sure one of the sox fans has it saved somewhere as a screen saver

[RedRuffing15]

Sorry If I'm missing the point becuase I don't look at the news papers much, but I don't remember much talk of Jeters game in game out Clutch performances. A hit in the bottem of the ninth for the win is clutch. Numorus hits in the bottem of the ninth for wins is being clutch. Jeters gotten clutch plays. So I'm not saying Jeters my choice for who I want up in the bottem of the ninth with bases loaded, 2 outs down by 2(which would be Hedeki)..but Jeter is who I'd want to have on first representing that winning run. It it possible other SS could have done the things hes done, of course, but Jeter puts so much heart into the game for the team, when he makes that great play, its shown off as so much more, becuase theres more under the surface of it than the play itself.

[rician blast]

you are hopeless...

if you are referring to the fact that it is a hopeless endeavor on your part to convince me that what you see is right and the irrefutable numbers (1-62 for example) are wrong than yes I am a lost cause.

So go ahead now and tell me how he steps it up in the clutch and how the numbers are just a smokescreen that somehow miss the mark.

[rician blast]

So I'm not saying Jeters my choice for who I want up in the bottem of the ninth with bases loaded, 2 outs down by 2(which would be Hedeki)..but Jeter is who I'd want to have on first representing that winning run. It it possible other SS could have done the things hes done, of course, but Jeter puts so much heart into the game for the team, when he makes that great play, its shown off as so much more, becuase theres more under the surface of it than the play itself.

good points....guys who genuinely CARE about there performance and their team and winning ae going to be revered...and the fans will remember their big plays much more.

That's why we as Sox fans say we'd be glad to have him don the Sox uniform.

[ORS]

So what explains the fact that he just seems to get on base when needed the most. If he averaged .380 OBP, why does it seem that he reaches base and subsequently scores important runs in important games in the postseason more often than not? Why does it seem that if he reaches base one time in a game, it just so happens to be in the 7th or 8th inning of a tight game and he eventually scores the game winning or game tying run? I have posted his triumphs, dispute them.....
It seems that way because you don't remember a K with the bases juiced or a GIDP in a close game as much as you remember when he does something to help the team.

I couldn't find the link to an article showing his late in-game batting record in the postseason, so I just went through the game logs on Retrosheet.org. He has a .307 BA and a .389 OBP after the 7th in the postseason. Right in line with his career averages. And, there are just as many times he came up small as there are that he came up big. There are just as many times he failed to start the rally as there are times that he started one. In short, he's a very good ball player, and he continues to be a good ball player in the postseason, but he doesn't elevate his game. He just doesn't choke. If that defines clutch for you, then so be it, but I'm not buying it.

To be honest (I didn't save the spreadsheet, so don't ask for the numbers), much of his clutch reputation has to do with his 1st postseason (1996). He was phenominal late in games that postseason, and thus the legend was born. It's hard to change minds on subsequent performances once that happens, and he has done some big things to perpetuate that myth, but he's also let the team down. Luckily for him, he was on some great teams with players that picked him up, the Yankees won, and his failures were washed away as inconsequential.

[Mr Crunchy]

Derek Jeter had another moment at Yankee Stadium. A note from Rob Tracy of the Elias Sports Bureau on the Jeter hit: It was only the second hit of Jeter's career in the eighth inning or later that drove in the tying and go-ahead runs. The other was in 1999 (including the postseason). During Jeter's tenure on the Yankees, Jorge Posada has five such hits and Scott Brosius had four. Jeter has had 56 chances to drive in a tying and go-ahead run in the eighth or later.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20060412


Bravo Derek.

Bravo.

sorry mj
1-56 is a stellar .017 and much better than the .016 i posted earlier however it does,in fact,include the post season

this is the antithesis of a clutch performer and i find it incredibly awful

[rician blast]

It seems that way because you don't remember a K with the bases juiced or a GIDP in a close game as much as you remember when he does something to help the team.

.
ORS is right on and hits on what the article in the original post in this thread stated regarding what fans remember and what they dismiss based upon who the player is.

Crunch...nice.

[Dana Kiecker]

Hes a very good player who does not exceed nor underperform his regular season stats.

So he doesnt suck in the playoffs nor is he clutch.

Thats the point.

I dont know how many other angles people here can try to point this out to you guys.

Jeezus, you guys act like we are pouring sugar in your gas tank and anally raping your mother. <Clerks>

[empirestrikesback26]

Eh, clutch can be defined many ways. I would call out a 2 out base hit with the bases loaded clutch myself, even in the 3rd inning. I'm not wrong, it's just that others might disagree.

I would agree that ortez could be on the same level as jeter in clutchness, butr he just hasn't been in enough playoffs yet.

[CrespoBlows]

Manny Ortez RULES!

[Mr Crunchy]

1-56 with men on and a chance to tie after the 8th inning
so is he a product of the ny media??

[He Hate Me]

lol, just keep redefining stats until you get a formula that you like. In this instance ignoring things like Jeter's game winning HR off BHK in 2001 WS 10th inning. Or the game early last year when he hit a walk off HR against the Sox.

[ORS]

lol, just keep redefining stats until you get a formula that you like.
Or, you can ridicule the ones that give uncomfortable answers. You seem to be pretty familiar with that.

[He Hate Me]

Or, you can ridicule the ones that give uncomfortable answers. You seem to be pretty familiar with that.

The stat he used magically wiped away two game winners by Jeter after the 8th inning.

[Mr Crunchy]

i remember that like it was yesterday
do you remember the 1-56 with risp after the 8th inning??

these #s are based on jeters production in driving in runners after the 8th inning(with men on base)...

if you think 2 career hits after the 8th inning is producing its no wonder why the yanks pay 16M to johnson 7M to wright 10M to pavano 19M to jetsey and mussian and 13M to damon

you guys are very very easy to please

[rician blast]

From an unidentified website:

The situations one would want to look at in trying to determine the Clutchness of a player would be the following:

- Runners in scoring position
- Runners in scoring position with two outs
- Close and late

The first two are self-explanatory. "Close and late" is defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck. In other words, how does someone do when the game is on the line?

Here are Derek Jeter's post-season numbers in those situations from 2000-2003, combined...

Runners in scoring position: .214/.421/.357
Runners in scoring position with two outs: .188/.381/.375
Close and late: .176/.263/.323


Retrosheet does not have Jeter's numbers close and late for his entire post-season career but what it does have is Jeter's numbers with men on base and with men in scoring position unlike ESPN.com. So for his entire 99-game post-season career (through 2003):

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306
Runners on base: .245/.345/.329

Fkn A, those are sweet numbers.

[He Hate Me]

i remember that like it was yesterday
do you remember the 1-56 with risp after the 8th inning??

these #s are based on jeters production in driving in runners after the 8th inning(with men on base)...

if you think 2 career hits after the 8th inning is producing its no wonder why the yanks pay 16M to johnson 7M to wright 10M to pavano 19M to jetsey and mussian and 13M to damon

you guys are very very easy to please

Those HRs I pointed out was to show you how slanted the stat was. I won't bother getting into an argument about Jeter's clutchness, because frankly both our minds are made up on that subject. I'm only showing you that your magical stat ignores some things.

[He Hate Me]

From an unidentified website:

The situations one would want to look at in trying to determine the Clutchness of a player would be the following:

- Runners in scoring position
- Runners in scoring position with two outs
- Close and late

The first two are self-explanatory. "Close and late" is defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck. In other words, how does someone do when the game is on the line?

Here are Derek Jeter's post-season numbers in those situations from 2000-2003, combined...

Runners in scoring position: .214/.421/.357
Runners in scoring position with two outs: .188/.381/.375
Close and late: .176/.263/.323


Retrosheet does not have Jeter's numbers close and late for his entire post-season career but what it does have is Jeter's numbers with men on base and with men in scoring position unlike ESPN.com. So for his entire 99-game post-season career (through 2003):

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306
Runners on base: .245/.345/.329

Fkn A, those are sweet numbers.

I thought he was 1 for something in your other stat. Please, just stick with one stat and go from there.

[rician blast]

The stat he used magically wiped away two game winners by Jeter after the 8th inning.

Hate:

what two game winners did this wipe away? I'm asking because I'd like to understand where this guys stats fall short...i.e. why they're missing the mark, if indeed they are.

I will say this...the late and close thing is limited in some respects because a third inning 3 run hr, for exampe, that puts a team up 5-0 changes the complexion of a game and may result in the opponent throwing away the game to save arms...so early-in-game performances don't garner the recognition they should sometimes.

However, the stats we're talking about here are what they are...game is on line, RISP, etc. and they measure what the player does in that situation.

Thinking of things from a Sox fans perspective, ignoring numbers and going on gut, if it were 4-4, bottom of ninth, winning run on second and Jeter up, I'd feel a lot better than if it were Matsui up or even Sheffield...and I don't know what their "clutch" stats say, just know both scare me more than Jetes and certainly way more than ARod would.

[rician blast]

I thought he was 1 for something in your other stat. Please, just stick with one stat and go from there.

while the latest article didn't say he wasn't 1 for something, what I was trying to show is that another source seemingly slices and dices things somewhat differently, and I'm not sure what exactly the differences are in terms of his criteria, but consistently these guys show Jetes to be less than stellar in the confines of "clutch situations".

I apologize for confusing anyone with more stats, and while I saw article after article contradicting the theory that Jeter is clutch, I will, for now, not add any additional evidence....its pretty overwhelming at this point anyway.

[He Hate Me]

Hate:

what two game winners did this wipe away? I'm asking because I'd like to understand where this guys stats fall short...i.e. why they're missing the mark, if indeed they are.

The stat disregards hits like his game winner last year in April and his game winner against the DBacks in 2001 WS.


I will say this...the late and close thing is limited in some respects because a third inning 3 run hr, for exampe, that puts a team up 5-0 changes the complexion of a game and may result in the opponent throwing away the game to save arms...so early-in-game performances don't garner the recognition they should sometimes.

That being said I would still much rather have a Ortiz 8th inning blast than an Arod 3rd inning blast. Both are important IMO, but the late inning play is the stuff that stays with you psychologically. If Ortiz never gets another hit in the 8th for the rest of the year, I would still intentionally walk him with first base open. That's just straight up honesty.


However, the stats we're talking about here are what they are...game is on line, RISP, etc. and they measure what the player does in that situation.

Thinking of things from a Sox fans perspective, ignoring numbers and going on gut, if it were 4-4, bottom of ninth, winning run on second and Jeter up, I'd feel a lot better than if it were Matsui up or even Sheffield...and I don't know what their "clutch" stats say, just know both scare me more than Jetes and certainly way more than ARod would.

Ok that's more sensible since we're talking about a stat that basically measures a hitter's ability to drive in runs. This is something I don't feel jeter has ever been good at, whether it be in the first inning or in the 9th. Why do I still label him clutch? because he is the one who is scoring the runs for the people who get the clutch hits. I don't know Johnny Damon's stat last year when applied with the same formula but it probably isn't that high either. However, someone had to be on base for Ortiz to succeed in that type of situation.

Driving in runners is just one part of being clutch (albeit a huge part), but there are many other things that makes one clutch. Just remember, the clutch RBI guys can't be clutch if the guys ahead of them arent being clutch by not being on base.

I don't know Jeter's OBP after the 8th or 7th or whatever, but it seemed to me that he was a part of every big rally in the last 10 years.

[Mr Crunchy]

jeters a good ballplayer who evidnetly cant hit with runners on after the 8th inning
i'd take him over alex gonzales

[ARod2212]

Jeter's line from last night,
4-5 (2B, HR), 4 RBI, 3 Runs scored, BB, SB

.349 AVG, .922 OPS

At this point I don't care if you guys don't think he's clutch. He's one of the best players in baseball this season.

[rician blast]

Jeter's line from last night,
4-5 (2B, HR), 4 RBI, 3 Runs scored, BB, SB

.349 AVG, .922 OPS

At this point I don't care if you guys don't think he's clutch. He's one of the best players in baseball this season.

personally, I don't care if he's clutch or not, as long as he isn't clutch against the Sox.

(which I'm pretty sure the numbers will show he isn't).

[Varitek33]

__________________

Why dont you go piss up a Yankees fan site then?

You're so fuckin smart and you think your team has got it?


Then leave us the fuck alone and go somewhere else and suffer.


You Yankee Trolls are like Tics man... the wetter it gets the more you spring up..


Blah.

I don't understand why Yankee fans are here.......

[TheRivernator]

I don't understand why Yankee fans are here.......

I am sure you have trouble understanding a whole lot more than that there skippy...

[RedRuffing15]

I don't understand why Yankee fans are here.......
To keep reality in tact

[rician blast]

ok, so here are the Mets GIVING the game to the Yankees...well ok, in fairness it was Wagner giving it away.

And up comes none other than the man who was the impetus for this thread.

Excellent oppoertunity to be clutch. Didn't even have to face the Mets closer. What does he do?

Feeble ground out to 2b.

Damn, maybe those "clutch" stats mean something after all?

[He Hate Me]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif

[Sox fan in Tex]

To keep reality in tact

... Or to brag about their 26 Championships. Then, we bring them back to reality (aka an OF of Damon, Cairo and Cabrera -- an old and worthless pitching staff -- a few players on the juice -- an overrated third baseman -- and a manager that won't lead his team to a championship title again). Poooooor Yankee fans. :lol:

P.S. Back on topic: Papi hits .331 at Yankee Stadium with 12 HRs in 36 games, what does Jeter hit at Fenway? I'll give you a hint -- it is lower than .245. :lol:

[rician blast]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif


touche', Hate.

[Mr Crunchy]

between him and arod in the late innings you have a gigantic hole
and now with ""the giambino"" hitting .240 this month,matsui gone for the year and sheffield out with his and posada has been out since the home plate collision

i dunno why sheffs out...do you??

i can only assume he got my mail telling him how much more arod matsui damon and jeter make than he does and how torre doesnt respect him and how steinbrenner set up doc gooden......and how he should tank it to show the league how important he is to them

[ARod2212]

i dunno why sheffs out...do you??
Ah, a veritable moron.

[TheKilo]

Ah, a veritable moron.


He hurt his wrist, think there's any truth to the rumor he's upset he didn't get an extension yet?

[Mr Crunchy]

the ole fist pump mustve got sheff but never underestimate the respect card
especially with terrence long playing left field,hes a disaster and sheff has sunk more than 1 team over the last 15 years with his attitude

big hit for arod tonite eh??
down 8 or up 8 the boy really can rack up some #s when it doesnt matter

[empirestrikesback26]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif
Is that bararo?

[rician blast]

Is that bararo?

Empire:

1. It's Barbaro...not bararo.

2. You ain't funny.

3. Thanks in part to Barbaro's injury I hit the exacta, and had the winner to win and place. Despite MY good fortune, I'd gladly give it up if the horse would be ok.

4. You're a tool.

[Mr Crunchy]

funny you said that
my daughter loved that horse and was broken up for a few hours till i lied and said the horse would be fine
i had to get the address of the stable and the vets office at penn u so she could send the animal a card and a bag of carrots
compassion or lack there of when dealing with animals
is not a solid character trait but neither is rooting for the yankees for that matter

[SuperManny]

Is that bararo?

Nice picture of Pedro though - you wish you could have a pitcher that good. Thank God he didn't go to the Yanks so that I can still like him. Yankees can have Damon.

[26 to 6]

funny you said that
my daughter loved that horse and was broken up for a few hours till i lied and said the horse would be fine
i had to get the address of the stable and the vets office at penn u so she could send the animal a card and a bag of carrots
compassion or lack there of when dealing with animals
is not a solid character trait but neither is rooting for the yankees for that matter
Thats a pretty cheap shot. Fuck you.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Thats a pretty cheap shot. Fuck you.

Ironic...

[empirestrikesback26]

I guess you could say his 2 RBI single wasn't clutch because it was only in the third. But look at the difference, 2 runs. I still call it clutch, anytime you come through like that it should be regarded as clutch.

[ARod2212]

Bottom 8, down 3, tying run at the plate. Pops up to shortstop.

Oritz = clutch.

[Sox fan in Tex]

Jesus H. Christ, you're just setting yourself up with that statement, ARod2212. I'm actually not even going to be the one to put you into place on that comment. Any other Red Sox fan want to compare Papi in the clutch to anyone in the New York Yankees organization? No contest. :lol:

[ARod2212]

Jesus H. Christ, you're just setting yourself up with that statement, ARod2212. I'm actually not even going to be the one to put you into place on that comment. Any other Red Sox fan want to compare Papi in the clutch to anyone in the New York Yankees organization? No contest. :lol: Sigh.

My point is EVEN DAVID ORTIZ fucks up in big spots.

Do I need to spell everything out to you simpletons?

[See Red]

Sigh.

My point is EVEN DAVID ORTIZ fucks up in big spots.

Do I need to spell everything out to you simpletons?

But does David Ortiz fuck up in every big spot?

[Mr Crunchy]

he had a bad whiff last nite
it happens

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Even if Ortiz bats .400 close and late...that's still failing 6 times out of ten.

And empire, to think that third inning hits are clutch, it really seems like you've adapted since A-Rod signed with the Yanks.

[empirestrikesback26]

Even if Ortiz bats .400 close and late...that's still failing 6 times out of ten.

And empire, to think that third inning hits are clutch, it really seems like you've adapted since A-Rod signed with the Yanks.
Clutch is what you make of it, coming through is coming through but where it gets shady is that I believe it's regardless of inning.

Speaking of clutch how about ortez caught with the bat on shoulders in a humungous spot where everybody in the world knows he's going to hit A) a 2 RBI single B) a 2-3 RBI double C) A grand slam. 0-5 against the yankees!? It really has been a rough start.

Jeter by the way with some clutch fielding, haha.

[Mr Crunchy]

anyone notice who made the last outs in nys sat and sunday games??
anyone else see papi go yard to end texas??

why anyone who follows this sport who would put arod jetsey and ortiz in the same company of ""clutchness"" must walk around with a dog a cane and ear plugs and get their information via michael""the ballwashing queen""kay

[The Monster is my Mom]

anyone notice who made the last outs in nys sat and sunday games??
anyone else see papi go yard to end texas??



nope, I don't think any of us saw it. who is papi?

[Optimist]

anyone notice who made the last outs in nys sat and sunday games??
anyone else see papi go yard to end texas??

why anyone who follows this sport who would put arod jetsey and ortiz in the same company of ""clutchness"" must walk around with a dog a cane and ear plugs and get their information via michael""the ballwashing queen""kay

Yeah, because what he did in two games, coming off an injury, is really an indication of him as a whole.

Closer and Late (2006):

Jeter: 12 - 28, .429 AVG
Ortiz: 6 - 29, .207 AVG

RISP (2006):

Jeter: 22 - 59, .373 AVG
Ortiz: 18 - 69, .261 AVG

Micheal Kay might be a ball washer, but it would appear you're more than happy to join him when a Red Sox player is the topic.

And, please, nobody holds A-Rod in the company of Ortiz and Jeter when it comes to clutchness.

[Mr Crunchy]

have you seen dereks #s after the 8th inning with the game on the line??
shall we revisit that article that had him at...what was it??
1-68
with risp behind or tied in the 8th inning or later??
c h o k e or clutch?
hows your math
i can find the article in about 2 seconds if you need a reminder

[Mr Crunchy]

we celebrate his eighthinning homer to beat the Royals earlier this month with tabloid headlines about clutchness even though, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in the tying and winning runs.

twice in his career
my apologies
i said once
that kc team is fascinating

[Optimist]

I can remember, at least, one other time he has done that this year. Anyways, you can pick and choose and reject whatever stats you wish, but nobody who watches the Yankees could call Derek Jeter unclutch. Whether it's in the field, or with the bat, he consistently comes up big for this team, April to October (especially the latter.)

[rician blast]

I can remember, at least, one other time he has done that this year. Anyways, you can pick and choose and reject whatever stats you wish, but nobody who watches the Yankees could call Derek Jeter unclutch. Whether it's in the field, or with the bat, he consistently comes up big for this team, April to October (especially the latter.)

boy never expected such mileage outta this thread. I guiess it just shows the lengths that some Yankee fans will go to in order to attempt to dispute some pretty undisputable statistics.

The number are what they are...late and close this guy has consistently underachieved.

Oh wait...could it be I'm just not be watching the Yankees enough? nah.

[Optimist]

boy never expected such mileage outta this thread. I guiess it just shows the lengths that some Yankee fans will go to in order to attempt to dispute some pretty undisputable statistics.

Or the lengths some of you Red Sox fans will go to tear him down. Gosh, still bitter about Nomar? Or maybe .229 BA- Alex Gonzalez?

[Mr Crunchy]

i may be mistaken but i believe he led baseball in ending games last year with an out...

alex gonzales doesnt make 19,000,000.00 to go 2-68 with risp after 8 innings
he plays short stop like jetsey dreams of playing and didnt he get a ring recently in florida and ended a game with a walk off homerun against the 4-1 favored yankees??

he doesnt do visa commercials or wear the C on his uniform
he just shuts his mouth and plays baseball

as far as nomar goes??
please
we won the world series 3 months after dumping his ass
it was the greatest thing to happen to boston baseball in 86 years
i thought he retired in shame
who gives a fuck about nomar.

jetsey is a good ballplayer who happens to be put on a pedestal because he plays in nyc
its not his fault he doesnt have the leadership skills of paul oneill or the big hit propensity that guys like broscious or leyritz or bernie had
lets call spades spades for a change
jetsey is a limited range banjo hitter who fails consistantly with runners on base in the late innings,he runs well,he doesnt makes the routine play,can turn the dp with the best of them and will hit .300-.310 with 200 hits per year and 100 runs

[rician blast]

Or the lengths some of you Red Sox fans will go to tear him down. Gosh, still bitter about Nomar? Or maybe .229 BA- Alex Gonzalez?

Opt:

Tearing him down?

If you read through this thread you'll see what some of us have said about Jeter.


DONT GET ME WRONG
we'd love to have jetsey here as a shortstop
hes certainly better than alex gonzales....hes a solid ballplayer
hes good for the game,good for the yankees and good for ny
i'd rather see arod out there at bat than derek but neither 1 of them frighten boston


Its more a testament to the teams he has been a part of. We've said again and again we like Jeter, we respect him, and I wish he'd been in a Sox uni for the past 10 years...but the numbers clearly show he isn't as clutch as you are being lead to believe by the media.



I can't make it any more plain. He's a tremendous player, and great team-player...he is what he is, and we'd love to have had him in Boston.

How is this a case of tearing him down? We're giving credit where credit is due....however we're not giving praise where none is deserved..

The numbers simply don't lie, why is that so difficult for Yank fans to accept?

[Mr Crunchy]

if you dont have soap water and a bucket to scrub his balls like michael kay evidently you're tearing him down jim

dont you understand?
hes the best ball player ever not named arod

[rician blast]

if you dont have soap water and a bucket to scrub his balls like michael kay evidently you're tearing him down jim

dont you understand?
hes the best ball player ever not named arod

wanna hear something really funny sean?

I'm playing my kid in Slugfest on PS2 last night. He's the Sox, I'm the Yanks (he won't play if he has to be the Yanks). He's up 15-12 in the last inning. I have one last shot. I creep to 15-14 with the tieing run on and Jetes and Arod are due up.

Jetes grounds to second. ARod whiffs. Game ova.

Yeah I know I was at the controls but I was trying to win...almost too predictable.

Do ya think Sony built in to the game the "late and close" stats?

[a700hitter]

jetsey is a good ballplayer who happens to be put on a pedestal because he plays in nycHe is worshiped as an icon. He is beyond criticism. His every action is cloaked with infallibility by Yankee fans. It's ridiculous, because he has never been the top player at his position-- rarely does he crack the top 3 in the AL at the SS position.

[Optimist]

he doesnt do visa commercials or wear the C on his uniform

Just for the record, Jeter doesn't wear a C on his uniform.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Just for the record, Jeter doesn't wear a C on his uniform.
Its kind of ironic he mentions the "C" on the uniform when Varitek wears a "C".

[Optimist]

Its kind of ironic he mentions the "C" on the uniform when Varitek wears a "C".

He probably needs the "C" with that .259 BA.

[schillingouttheks]

:lol: It's true. I think knowing he's been a Sox forever and that he's the captain is why not too many people are very frustrated with him. It is kind of annoying though that when he gets to the plate you think of a .259 hitting captain <_<

[Mr Crunchy]

hes a catcher
he calls the game,he sets the tone
dont believe me?
ask arod what happens when you disrespect a sox pitcher

is this how you retort about jetseys futile #s late in the game??
by calling out jason veritek?
do you realize your allstar catcher blocks the plate around the pitchers mound and is terrified of contact?

i already said its not jetseys fault he isnt a leader like paul oneill

[rician blast]

Just for the record, Jeter doesn't wear a C on his uniform.

true.

Varitek did not want to wear the C either...that's pretty well known. He felt like it could be construed in a negative fashion...he preferred to lead by example.

However his teammates suggested, then requested and then pretty much demanded he wear the C...because they wanted to show HIM how much they respected him as a teammate, a person and a leader.

In the land of superstars and egos in the Bronx ya just don't hear anyone going to bat for Jetesy like that.

Perhaps THAT is the true source of your ire?

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

is this how you retort about jetseys futile #s late in the game??
by calling out jason veritek?

Not at all, you said Jeter wears a "C" on his jersey because I guess hes an egomaniac when he has never worn a "C". I just pointed out that Varitek wears a "C".

[Mr Crunchy]

is jeter the yankee captain??
if so he wears the C
its a figure of speech sonny

""wearing"" the C indicates youre the team captain
yaz was the sox captain for 16 years without wearing the C
jim rice didnt wear a C either
you dont need to physically wear one to be one

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

is jeter the yankee captain??
if so he wears the C
its a figure of speech sonny

""wearing"" the C indicates youre the team captain
yaz was the sox captain for 16 years without wearing the C
jim rice didnt wear a C either
you dont need to physically wear one to be one


he doesnt do visa commercials or wear the C on his uniform
he just shuts his mouth and plays baseball

I'm pretty sure you didnt mean it as a "figure of speech" but whatever. You made it sound like wearing a C is a bad thing.

[Mr Crunchy]

i should know my audience better
i dont know of any other bball player who wears a C on his uniform other than tek
it was a figure of speech
i apologize for the grammar
did you do a lot of umpiring as a kid??

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

did you do a lot of umpiring as a kid??
:blink:

[yankeessuck013]

He probably needs the "C" with that .259 BA.

No, I think this is why.

http://adamwlad.tripod.com/redsox_yankees/images/varitek_arod2.jpg

[Optimist]

No, I think this is why.

http://adamwlad.tripod.com/redsox_yankees/images/varitek_arod2.jpg

Because of tripod?

[RedRuffing15]

Personally, you guys are doing the same as giving me stats on why David Wright isn't an Oriole.

[Lord Armand Lynch]

Oh yes, this particular debate has winged its way over the pond to the good ole UK. Now I don't get to see as much baseball as you chaps out there, but it seems to this onlooker from afar that the following rules apply:

The New York Yankees are the biggest team in baseball.

The player who sucks the least is the best player on the biggest team in baseball.

That player should be the League MVP.

I'm with the Fire Joe Morgan site on this one. Jeter's numbers (according to them, so don't shoot me people) are broadly comparable with Kevin Youkilis's numbers. Now not that I can compare a mutil-World Champion on a team with a pitching staff to dream of, and a batting line-up loaded with pressure performers (that's the late 90s boys and girls) to our budding 1st base star, but to say he's the season MVP when the Tigers, the White Sox, hell, even the Red Sox are blazing away.

What is clutch anyway? I've read this thread through and through and probably am still none the wiser.....

Pip Pip all!

[rician blast]

Oh yes, this particular debate has winged its way over the pond to the good ole UK. Now I don't get to see as much baseball as you chaps out there, but it seems to this onlooker from afar that the following rules apply:

The New York Yankees are the biggest team in baseball.

The player who sucks the least is the best player on the biggest team in baseball.

That player should be the League MVP.

I'm with the Fire Joe Morgan site on this one. Jeter's numbers (according to them, so don't shoot me people) are broadly comparable with Kevin Youkilis's numbers. Now not that I can compare a mutil-World Champion on a team with a pitching staff to dream of, and a batting line-up loaded with pressure performers (that's the late 90s boys and girls) to our budding 1st base star, but to say he's the season MVP when the Tigers, the White Sox, hell, even the Red Sox are blazing away.

What is clutch anyway? I've read this thread through and through and probably am still none the wiser.....

Pip Pip all!

huh?

[RedRuffing15]

I think(think) hes saying that Jeter just happens to be the best player on the biggest team, so he is projected as something hes not? idk, something like that

[rician blast]

I think(think) hes saying that Jeter just happens to be the best player on the biggest team, so he is projected as something hes not? idk, something like that

huh?

[26 Reasons to Hate Us]

For what it's worth...

"You want big hits? Guess who has more hits (16) and a better batting average (.364) in close-and-late situations than Thome, Dye and Ortiz? Yep, Jeter. Guess who has more hits with runners in scoring position (30)? Jeter, a .357 hitter in those spots, including .371 with two outs."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/07/11/inside.baseball/index.html

[BoSox34]

No doubt about it, Jeter is clutch. He has shown throughout his regular season career and more importantly, postseason career that he can come up with the big hit when the game is on the line. Just because he hasn't batted .1000 in clutch situations doesn't make him bad in the clutch.

[ORS]

Great, he has the highest BA. But that is the least useful batting rate statistic. You want something that measures all of it? RISP, C&L, etc.....and gives credit for extra bases, stolen bases, et al? Look at WPA. Win Probability Added.

Pujols - 550
Ortiz - 340
Dye - 326
Jeter - 317
Bonds - 286

Jeter is having a good year, but Ortiz is still a bit better in the clutch. Besides, the premise of the article was based on performance prior to this year, so Jeter's performance this year is immaterial. WPA is fairly new, so I don't know where to find previous seasons' perfomance. If that was available, we could see how 'clutch' he really was.

[BoSox34]

Date, site: July 11, 2000
Site: Turner Field, Atlanta

Setting: All-Star Game

The Play: Starting in place of the injured Alex Rodriguez, Jeter doubled in the first inning to give the American League its first extra-base hit in two years. Jeter's two-run single in the fourth inning provided the winning run for the AL's 6-3 victory and garnered him the first All-Star Game MVP award in Yankees' history. Said Jeter: "Look at all the Yankee greats over the years. You figure at least one of them would win one."

Date Oct. 14, 2000
Site: Safeco Field, Seattle

Situation: ALCS, Game 4; Yankees lead 2-1

The Play: Roger Clemens got the headlines for his 15-strikeout, one-hit shutout of the Mariners, and deservedly so. But it was Jeter who broke a scoreless tie with a fifth-inning, three-run home run off Paul Abbott with Scott Brosius and Chuck Knoblauch aboard. Three days later in the Bronx, the Yankees were headed for the Subway Series after clinching their fourth AL pennant in five years.

Date: Oct. 21, 2003
Site: Pro Player Stadium, Miami

Situation: World Series, Game 3; series tied 1-1

The Play: To most of the Yankees on this night, Josh Beckett was unhittable. Most, but not all. Jeter collected the Bombers' only three hits off Beckett, who struck out 10 in 7 1/3 innings. Jeter scored three runs in the 6-1 victory. Said Joe Torre: "It took me 30-something years to get to the World Series. [Jeter] thinks it's an every-year occurrence. You look in his eyes, you see something special because he's a leader. He was a leader when he was 20 years old."

Date: Oct. 9, 1996
Site: Yankee Stadium, Bronx

Situation: ALCS, Game 1

The Play: In perhaps the ultimate sign of clutchness, Jeter had the presence of mind to hit a fly ball right to where a 12-year-old kid's interference would result in a botched-call home run. Seriously, though, did you remember it was Jeter who hit the ball that would land in Jeffrey Maier's -- and not O's right fielder Tony Tarasco's -- hands? The bogus home run off Armando Benitez tied the game 4-4 in the eighth and the Yankees went on to win 5-4 in 11 innings.

Date: Oct. 15, 2001
Site: Yankee Stadium, Bronx, N.Y.

Situation: ALDS, Game 5; series tied 2-2

The Play: The Yankees led the A's 5-3 in the eighth with Mariano Rivera on the mound and one out. Eric Chavez was on first base. When Terrence Long popped up foul to the third-base side, Jeter sprinted toward the stands and dove, making a ridiculous catch while crashing into the stands. The series was as good as over. Said a sobbing George Steinbrenner: "I've never seen an athlete dominate any sport -- in baseball, in basketball, in football -- like he dominated this series."

Date: July 1, 2004
Site: Yankee Stadium, Bronx

Situation: Yankees lead Red Sox by 7 1/2 games

The Play: Regular-season games don't get much more dramatic than this. In the top of the 12th with runners on second and third and two outs, Boston's Trot Nixon sent a blooper over third base. Jeter sprinted over, caught the ball in fair territory for the third out, then went completely horizontal as his momentum sent him flying into the stands. New York went on to win 5-4 in 13 innings, but Jeter never saw the ending -- he was in the hospital with a busted chin.

Date: Oct. 25, 2000
Site: Shea Stadium, Queens, N.Y.

Situation: World Series, Game 4; Yankees lead Mets 2-1

The Play: In Game 3, the Mets had snapped the Yankees' 14-game World Series winning streak, but Jeter took the momentum back for the Bombers by leading off Game 4 with a home run. The Yanks went on to win 3-2 and wrapped up the Series the next day. Jeter became the first player to win MVP honors in the World Series and All-Star Game in the same season. Only one other player -- Hall of Famer Frank Robinson -- had won both pieces of hardware in a career.

Date: Oct. 31, 2001
Site: Yankee Stadium, Bronx, N.Y.

Situation: World Series, Game 4; Yankees trail D'backs 2-1

The Play: Bad things happen when you leave your pitcher in too long against the Yanks. Byung-Hyun Kim had pitched the eighth inning, blown the save in the ninth on a two-out gopher ball to Tino Martinez, then was left in for the 10th. On Kim's 62nd pitch, three minutes after midnight, Jeter sliced a pitch just over the 314-foot sign in right field to break a personal 1-for-10 slide. "I think I broke my foot hitting [home] plate," Jeter said.

Date: Oct. 13, 2001
Site: Oakland Coliseum, Oakland, Calif.

Situation: ALDS, Game 3; Yankees trail A's 2-0

The Play: Slide, Jeremy, slide! Alas, Jeremy Giambi didn't slide, allowing Jeter to kickstart another Yankees march to the World Series. With the Yankees up 1-0 in the seventh, Giambi reached base with a two-out single. Then Terrence Long doubled into the right-field corner, where Shane Spencer proceeded to overthrow the cutoff man. Suddenly, Jeter came into the picture and flipped the ball to catcher Jorge Posada, who tagged Giambi. "What in the heck is Jeter doing running over there?" Oakland's Johnny Damon wondered after the game.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/specials/all_star/2004/07/07/jeter.clutch/

Not only does Jeter perform in clutch situations at the plate, but he is also known for his incredible defensive plays in key situations of big games.

[BoSox34]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OUQTLuRIU8s&search=derek%20jeter

[Mr Crunchy]

Jeter gets credit for saving the Yankees with that flip to home plate but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since. And think of the times he's been bailed out. His four-strikeout performance against the Twins in the 2004 playoffs was erased because “choker” Alex Rodriguez lifted the Yankees with a monster performance in the same game. And once Aaron Boone hit the Game 7 homer to carry Jeter and the rest of the Yankees past the Red Sox, it didn't matter that Jeter was 7-for-30 with three runs and two RBIs. Perception takes a bat to reality. Pretty good deal if you can get it. Instead, we celebrate his eighthinning homer to beat the Royals earlier this month with tabloid headlines about clutchness even though, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the second time in Jeter's career that he had any kind of hit after the eighth inning to drive in both the tying and winning runs. Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason at-bats as Jeter: 462. In those at-bats,
Williams has six more homers, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBIs, two more runs and seven fewer strikeouts.


i like the part that reads

We ignore that no player in baseball, not one, made more outs to end games last season with the tying or winning run on base than Jeter did.

[BoSox34]

Jeter gets credit for saving the Yankees with that flip to home plate but doesn't get blamed for the team's postseason failures since.

He doesn't get blamed because it wasn't his fault for the entire team failing, last season in the ALDS, Jeter batted .333 with 2 homers and 5 RBIs...those are good clutch playoff statistics and not deserving of being blamed for the whole team losing.

[26 to 6]

No, I think this is why.

http://adamwlad.tripod.com/redsox_yankees/images/varitek_arod2.jpg
So he deserves to be captain because of a violent outburst? What a message that must send to the kids. Way to go guys! No wonder so many idiots come out of Boston.



Also, this next point is irrelevent and has nothing to do with clutch performance (well I suppose it does, but not entirely), but since this is the Jeter thread I guess i'll point it out in here. Jeter is second in the AL in hitting witha .345 average I believe. Second only behind Mauer's 373. So I hope all of you guys who like to criticize Jeter's offensive abilities and talent in general enjoy eating those words.

[TheKilo]

So he deserves to be captain because of a violent outburst? What a message that must send to the kids. Way to go guys! No wonder so many idiots come out of Boston.



Also, this next point is irrelevent and has nothing to do with clutch performance (well I suppose it does, but not entirely), but since this is the Jeter thread I guess i'll point it out in here. Jeter is second in the AL in hitting witha .345 average I believe. Second only behind Mauer's 373. So I hope all of you guys who like to criticize Jeter's offensive abilities and talent in general enjoy eating those words.


A month late on the first point. Nice timing.

Second, Varitek refuses to sign photos of that incident. Maybe if ARod just took his base instead of jawing at a pitcher who makes $350K, then it wouldn't have happened. It's not like he threw at his head or anything, he hit him in his elbow pad.

Lastly, Jeter is one hell of an offensive ballplayer. He scares the shit out of me in a big spot, I don't care what the numbers say. Things can be said about his defense, IMO, but he is definitely a very good offensive player.

[ORS]

So he deserves to be captain because of a violent outburst? What a message that must send to the kids. Way to go guys! No wonder so many idiots come out of Boston.
Well, the guy that posted that is from NY. Upstate NY, but NY nonetheless. Foot meet mouth. Well done.

[26 to 6]

A month late on the first point. Nice timing.

Second, Varitek refuses to sign photos of that incident. Maybe if ARod just took his base instead of jawing at a pitcher who makes $350K, then it wouldn't have happened. It's not like he threw at his head or anything, he hit him in his elbow pad.

Lastly, Jeter is one hell of an offensive ballplayer. He scares the shit out of me in a big spot, I don't care what the numbers say. Things can be said about his defense, IMO, but he is definitely a very good offensive player.
yeah lol, I realize I was late on the first point. This is the first time i've visited this thread in a month or so, so I hadnt seen it yet. And yes, I realize that Varitek refuses to sign any pictures of the incident, which is very classy and respectable. I definately admire Varitek no question. My point wasnt supposed to be negative towards Varitek, but negative towards that example and the statement that that is the reason he deserves that "C".

[26 to 6]

Well, the guy that posted that is from NY. Upstate NY, but NY nonetheless. Foot meet mouth. Well done.
yeah lol, good point. I didnt notice who the poster was.

[ORS]

yeah lol, good point. I didnt notice who the poster was.
Perhaps dropping preconceived notions about people would help. Just an idea.

[a700hitter]

Overrated prima donna

[26 to 6]

Perhaps dropping preconceived notions about people would help. Just an idea.
Dude shut up, just drop it. I realized I messed up, now just let it die. If you would like I will reiterate my statement..


So he deserves to be captain because of a violent outburst? What a message that must send to the kids. Way to go guys! No wonder so many idiots come out of Red Sox Nation.

[ORS]

Dude shut up, just drop it. I realized I messed up, now just let it die. If you would like I will reiterate my statement..


So he deserves to be captain because of a violent outburst? What a message that must send to the kids. Way to go guys! No wonder so many idiots come out of Red Sox Nation.
It was just some friendly advice. Nice overreaction. What a tool.

[rician blast]

Also, this next point is irrelevent and has nothing to do with clutch performance (well I suppose it does, but not entirely),

you are right. it is irrelevant in the context of this thread.