PDA

View Full Version : Jaret Wright traded to the O's



jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 07:51 AM
Cashman does another raping. Wright, who was scheduled to be bought out, was sent along with cash to the Orioles for 23 yr old reliever Chris Britton. Britton had an era in the low 3's last yr in the bigs, but was demoted in August because of a rough stretch of 6 games. Here are his stats.

Baltimore MLB 0-2 3.35ERA 52G 53.2IP 46H 17BB 41K 1.17WHIP

He throws gas and is only 23 yrs old. Why the fuck would the O's make this deal for 5 inning Wright? Damn.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 07:57 AM
here is the link

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.orioles12nov12,0,7218437.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball

riverside sluggers
11-12-2006, 08:06 AM
Britton was a promising reliever for the O's and they send him to their rival Yankees, even though they couldve easily gotten Wright cheap as a FA. They'll contend with Tampa Bay for last place once again

ORS
11-12-2006, 08:07 AM
This is a raping? Wow.

Britton is a decent looking youngster, but look at the cost. The Yankees aren't deep at SP and they just gave away an option. Hell, the Sox were deep at SP going into last year when they traded away Arroyo and we saw how quickly he could have been used. Don't get me wrong, I see good potential for the Yankees here, but I don't see a raping. Especially when you consider Wright is being matched up with the pitching coach who is the reason the Yankees signed him in the first place, which could serve to make a division foe a little tougher. I don't see a clear-cut winner in this one.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:11 AM
Britton was a promising reliever for the O's and they send him to their rival Yankees, even though they couldve easily gotten Wright cheap as a FA. They'll contend with Tampa Bay for last place once again


So in total.

Yankees dealt
38 yr old power hitter who had no position
32 yr old starting pitcher who was not going to make the rotation
4 million dollars

Yankees received
Humberto Sanchez- 23 yr old AAA pitcher with ace potential
Kevin Whelan- 22 yr old top 10 prospect with closer potential
Antohny Claggett- 22 yr old project with rotation potential
Chris Britton- 23 yr old power reliever who had a solid rookie yr in the majors

Cashman is making his bank thus far this offseason. Nice moves.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:22 AM
This is a raping? Wow.

Britton is a decent looking youngster, but look at the cost. The Yankees aren't deep at SP and they just gave away an option. Hell, the Sox were deep at SP going into last year when they traded away Arroyo and we saw how quickly he could have been used. Don't get me wrong, I see good potential for the Yankees here, but I don't see a raping. Especially when you consider Wright is being matched up with the pitching coach who is the reason the Yankees signed him in the first place, which could serve to make a division foe a little tougher. I don't see a clear-cut winner in this one.

Arroyo and Wright do not even belong in the same sentence. Jaret Wright is a pitcher who posted a mid 4 era and took the bump 30+ times last yr. That is the good side, but check out his average innings per start. He barely averaged 5 innings per start. He is a huge reason why Scott Proctor pitched 100 innings last yr and he flopped in his most important start to stave off elimination. Also, Wright was useless out of the pen in a swing role.

The yankees have some young pitchers who impressed late in the yr. They also have Pavano coming back, but he cannot be counted on. Assuming Wang, RJ, and Mussina are still the top 3, this now leaves 3 pitchers for 2 spots with the potential for the yankees to nab one more pitcher on the market. They have Pavano, Karstens and Rasner ready for the rotation. Karstens started 6 games, went 2-1 with a 3.80ERA and averaged over 6 innings per start. Rasner went 3-1 with a mid 4 era in 3 starts and 3 relief appearances and the guy is dominating winter ball. Rasner is 25 and Karstens is 24, both guys are better bets to have a good season than Jaret Wright.

Also, Wright was expected to be bought out at 4 mil and let go as a FA. Hence, the yankees bought him out and were given a 23 yr old power reliever as a gift.

riverside sluggers
11-12-2006, 08:25 AM
O's fans are sorry bunch
http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-orioles&msg=31316.1

From: bawlmeroreos 6:40 am
To: ALL (2 of 5)

The Sun says its done.

Britton to NY for Wright and cash. Just waiting for the Commish's approval since it involves over 1M in cash.

I guess this is another Leo project. Could be a good move.

From: mora4pres 7:34 am
To: bawlmeroreos (3 of 5)

I like this move as well....I like the fact that the team is starting out the off season in an aggressive way.

From: bawlmeroreos 8:04 am
To: mora4pres (4 of 5)

Now if they can only sustain the momentum :lol: and close some other gaps. Another starter would be nice someone like Suppan, Meche, Eaton, Lilly...I don't foresee Mulder.

I don't expect Soriano or Lee either. Big numbers and long contracts makes Peter nauseous and gives him night sweats.

I look for older, mid-level guys like Alou, Huff, you know the kind that gives normanchaney apoplexy.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:27 AM
O's fans are sorry bunch


can you blame them. This is utterly deplorable. I watched a lot of O's games last yr. Britton was a guy who could be counted on until he hit a rough patch in August. He was the O's version of Proctor. He was used a TON. He throws gas, has some control issues, but not too bad and has good enough off speed stuff to get by.

And to think, they gave up something of value for a guy who was going to be bought out today and would have become a FA.

ORS
11-12-2006, 08:34 AM
Arroyo and Wright do belong in the same sentence when you are discussing SP depth. The Yakees don't have that right now. The fact that you bring up Rasner, Karstens, and Pavano as legit depth options for them right now says a lot about how far you are reaching. Pavano has pitched 100 innings in the last two-years. Even if he isn't hurt, you think throwing a guy who hasn't pitched against ML hitters in over 18 months into the AL East is a good option? Rasner and Karstens are AAAA players. That's like saying the Sox had SP depth with DiNardo, Pauley, and Gabbard.

Gom
11-12-2006, 08:36 AM
This is a raping? Wow.

Britton is a decent looking youngster, but look at the cost. The Yankees aren't deep at SP and they just gave away an option. Hell, the Sox were deep at SP going into last year when they traded away Arroyo and we saw how quickly he could have been used. Don't get me wrong, I see good potential for the Yankees here, but I don't see a raping. Especially when you consider Wright is being matched up with the pitching coach who is the reason the Yankees signed him in the first place, which could serve to make a division foe a little tougher. I don't see a clear-cut winner in this one.

Once again, I fail to see any reasoning here. Jaret Wright averaged 4.68 innings per start. Karstens, his replacement, averaged 6 innings per start. Now, I won't say that Karstens will have a 1.20 WHIP like last year [who knows how he will do in a full season], but I believe that there is little doubt that he will average any worse than Wright did last year. Wright's biggest problem was an inability to pitch deep into any games. He severely taxed the Yankee bullpen, as they had to pitch 4-5 innings in pretty much every single start he had last year. Wright cost the Yankees more than you think due the overworking of the bullpen. Another classic example of addition by subtraction. Considering the Yankees were going to buy him out anyways, getting anything at all, even a bar of soap for him, was an upgrade. Cashman got a decent young player for someone he was going to buy out anyways. So they got Britton for nothing when all was said and done. The fact that he is reunited with Mazzone is irrelevant. Unless Mazzone was going to coach him in NY this coming season, it makes no difference to the Yankees plans this offseason.

What should worry the Sox is that the Yankees have successfully cut 32 million by getting rid of Sheffield, Wright, and Mussina's salary. I highly doubt that the Yankees are going to sit on this money. Also assuming that Matsuzaka ends up with the Red Sox, I see the Yankees seriously pursuing both Zito and Schmidt, who they could easily sign now with the money they saved AND still coming out with a savings. In fact, they could resign Mussina as well [say 12 million], and only come out with a net increase in payroll of about 3-4 million per year. I won't say it's a complete raping, but Cashman is having a hell of an off-season so far.

John Heyman of CNNSI also states that there is trade interest, believe it or not, in Pavano. If he goes too, which is a long shot, the Yankees could conceivably sign Schmidt AND Zito AND Mussina. They might be able to anyways at this point.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:41 AM
Arroyo and Wright do belong in the same sentence when you are discussing SP depth. The Yakees don't have that right now. The fact that you bring up Rasner, Karstens, and Pavano as legit depth options for them right now says a lot about how far you are reaching. Pavano has pitched 100 innings in the last two-years. Even if he isn't hurt, you think throwing a guy who hasn't pitched against ML hitters in over 18 months into the AL East is a good option? Rasner and Karstens are AAAA players. That's like saying the Sox had SP depth with DiNardo, Pauley, and Gabbard.

Think about this though. It is likely that the yankees will get one more SP. RJ, Mussina, Wang, ??? (Zito?, Matsu?, Schmidt?, Pettitte?) and then an open 5 slot. That 5 slot has suitors like Pavano, Rasner, and Karstens. Then it has the potential to be open for Hughes, Clippard, or Sanchez. They have options is what I am saying, and losing a guy who could not get past 5 innings on a regular basis is not something that will hurt. Arroyo was a guy who would give you a mid 4 era and go 6-7 innings per start. That saves pen. Wright was a guy who would go 4-6 innings, that burns pen. He was useless and hence why he was being bought out.

Also, Gabbard is a favorable comparison in that he had success as did both Rasner and Karstens. Pauley not so much aside from one game.

a700hitter
11-12-2006, 08:45 AM
Yankees received
Humberto Sanchez- 23 yr old AAA pitcher with ace potential
Kevin Whelan- 22 yr old top 10 prospect with closer potential
Antohny Claggett- 22 yr old project with rotation potential
Chris Britton- 23 yr old power reliever who had a solid rookie yr in the majors

Cashman is making his bank thus far this offseason. Nice moves.Who, who, who and who? I'll start worrying about these guys when I start seeing Yankee fans wearing thir jerseys. Until then, you got 4 lottery tickets. At best, Cashman has freed up payroll.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:48 AM
one other thing that is a good predictor of some success.

Rasner 5BB in 20IP
Karstens 11BB in 42IP

while
Gabbard 16BB in 25.2IP
Pauley 6BB in 16IP

I am not saying Karstens or Rasner will be ace material. They will likely be asked to be #5s if they make the team at all. All a #5 needs to do is log innings and limit baserunners. Good control will help with that. Gabbard and Pauley didnt have that.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:49 AM
Who, who, who and who? I'll start worrying about these guys when I start seeing Yankee fans wearing thir jerseys. Until then, you got 4 lottery tickets. At best, Cashman has freed up payroll.

Britton will pitched in the majors last yr.

ORS
11-12-2006, 08:52 AM
Once again, I fail to see any reasoning here. Jaret Wright averaged 4.68 innings per start. Karstens, his replacement, averaged 6 innings per start. Now, I won't say that Karstens will have a 1.20 WHIP like last year [who knows how he will do in a full season], but I believe that there is little doubt that he will average any worse than Wright did last year. Wright's biggest problem was an inability to pitch deep into any games. He severely taxed the Yankee bullpen, as they had to pitch 4-5 innings in pretty much every single start he had last year. Wright cost the Yankees more than you think due the overworking of the bullpen. Another classic example of addition by subtraction. Considering the Yankees were going to buy him out anyways, getting anything at all, even a bar of soap for him, was an upgrade. Cashman got a decent young player for someone he was going to buy out anyways. So they got Britton for nothing when all was said and done. The fact that he is reunited with Mazzone is irrelevant. Unless Mazzone was going to coach him in NY this coming season, it makes no difference to the Yankees plans this offseason.
Why are people assuming Cashman was going to buy him out? Because that's what they would have done? Newsflash, none of you work in baseball ops for a reason. I haven't seen that reported anywhere, so lets not give somebody credit for something that didn't happen. If the Orioles had any inclination to believe he would have been available for money only, they would have waited.


What should worry the Sox is that the Yankees have successfully cut 32 million by getting rid of Sheffield, Wright, and Mussina's salary. I highly doubt that the Yankees are going to sit on this money. Also assuming that Matsuzaka ends up with the Red Sox, I see the Yankees seriously pursuing both Zito and Schmidt, who they could easily sign now with the money they saved AND still coming out with a savings. In fact, they could resign Mussina as well [say 12 million], and only come out with a net increase in payroll of about 3-4 million per year. I won't say it's a complete raping, but Cashman is having a hell of an off-season so far.

John Heyman of CNNSI also states that there is trade interest, believe it or not, in Pavano. If he goes too, which is a long shot, the Yankees could conceivably sign Schmidt AND Zito AND Mussina. They might be able to anyways at this point.
Right, because the Yankees can force them to sign with them. There are strong indications that Schmidt isn't interested in leaving the west coast. And, while Zito has expressed interest in the NY market, there's another team with WIN-NOW written all over them and ever more grave needs in the rotation (and they have a GM not afraid of handing out big $$). No guarantees there.

Wright reuniting with Mazzone is relevant. I mean, it has to be with someone like you who wanted to congratulate the Yankees for deciding where Sheff went. If they get credit there, they get blame here. Trading Wright, while not the fear inducing player Sheff can be, to the O's was the worst possible place. His career best was with Mazzone, and they play the O's 19 times. Be consistent.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:54 AM
it was reported in the post a few weeks back I believe. It seems to have been common knowledge. Check rotoworld. They say that the yankees would have had control over him for one more day, hence they would have bought him out.

ORS
11-12-2006, 08:56 AM
Damn, if only the Orioles had the internet.

a700hitter
11-12-2006, 09:02 AM
Britton will pitched in the majors last yr.Will Britton pitch in the majors this year? Will he be anything more than a body. Will he have 11 wins with a 4.50 ERA. Oh, and Jaret Wright is 30 years old, and he gave up only 10 HRs in 140 IP. Only Wang gave up HRs less frequently.

MC Hammer
11-12-2006, 09:15 AM
I don't think I can ever say a bad word about Cashman again. From the ASB to now he's made about a half dozen rapes for the yankees.

Optimist
11-12-2006, 09:20 AM
His career best was with Mazzone, and they play the O's 19 times. Be consistent.

His career best was in the National League. I think that had a lot more to do with his success than a pitching coach who led the second worst staff in all of baseball this year.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 09:21 AM
Will Britton pitch in the majors this year? Will he be anything more than a body. Will he have 11 wins with a 4.50 ERA. Oh, and Jaret Wright is 30 years old, and he gave up only 10 HRs in 140 IP. Only Wang gave up HRs less frequently.

It is currently November 12th. FA season has not even started yet. This is not a spring training deal like Arroyo was. There are options available right now. Also, you bring up 140IP. How many starts was that in? The guy was a pen burner.

CrespoBlows
11-12-2006, 09:22 AM
one other thing that is a good predictor of some success.

Rasner 5BB in 20IP
Karstens 11BB in 42IP

while
Gabbard 16BB in 25.2IP
Pauley 6BB in 16IP

I am not saying Karstens or Rasner will be ace material. They will likely be asked to be #5s if they make the team at all. All a #5 needs to do is log innings and limit baserunners. Good control will help with that. Gabbard and Pauley didnt have that.

Bad indicator's for success.

Karstens:
11/16 BB:K ratio
.49 GO/FO ratio. (That'll look even worse in Yankee Stadium)
6 HR's in 42 IP (That'll look worse in Yankee Stadium)

And Rasner? He pitched 20 innings, and this guy is a success? There's a reason the Nationals threw this bitch onto the compost heap. His fastball barely touches 87 mph, his secondary stuff is average at best. This guy isn't a major league starters.

Oh, and besides, Pauley and Dinardo do suck. Just like these guys right here.

MC Hammer
11-12-2006, 09:30 AM
His career best was in the National League. I think that had a lot more to do with his success than a pitching coach who led the second worst staff in all of baseball this year.
I agree. I think he is one of the most overrated coaches in the history of baseball. He got Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz ... not real hard to have success. Think about the great names he's brought up since ... such as .......................... and uh .......................................

CrespoBlows
11-12-2006, 09:32 AM
Will Britton pitch in the majors this year? Will he be anything more than a body. Will he have 11 wins with a 4.50 ERA. Oh, and Jaret Wright is 30 years old, and he gave up only 10 HRs in 140 IP. Only Wang gave up HRs less frequently.

Yeah, he will. He's had 50 IP of major league success, and he's routinely blown away batters at the minor league level. He throws hard, and his decent control. He won't be a dominate setup man, but he can help a bullpen out.

I don't know why you have a massive prospect phobia, but it's hindering your ability to think. Seriously man, this is Jaret Wright. A guy, I loved to see pitching for the Yankees. The Yankees would have been lucky to receive a used condom for this guy. He was lucky his ERA didn't soar over 6.00 this year. Unless Mazzone can summon that magic potion that he used to resurrect Wright's career in Atlanta, (key word Atlanta) this was an underwhelming move by the Orioles. Why Steinbrenner was dumb enough to give this guy three years is beyond me.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 09:32 AM
Bad indicator's for success.

Karstens:
11/16 BB:K ratio
.49 GO/FO ratio. (That'll look even worse in Yankee Stadium)
6 HR's in 42 IP (That'll look worse in Yankee Stadium)

And Rasner? He pitched 20 innings, and this guy is a success? There's a reason the Nationals threw this bitch onto the compost heap. His fastball barely touches 87 mph, his secondary stuff is average at best. This guy isn't a major league starters.

Oh, and besides, Pauley and Dinardo do suck. Just like these guys right here.

use your formulas all you want. I determine my considerations on where they are depended upon. An ace should have all the nice peripherals, a horse with low era, potentially a very high K rate, but a low WHIP. A #5 guy to me is someone who can post a mid 4's era and give you 6-7 innings per night. These are usually pitchers who have fringe stuff. You cannot get by on fringe stuff while giving away free passes.

CrespoBlows
11-12-2006, 09:41 AM
use your formulas all you want. I determine my considerations on where they are depended upon. An ace should have all the nice peripherals, a horse with low era, potentially a very high K rate, but a low WHIP. A #5 guy to me is someone who can post a mid 4's era and give you 6-7 innings per night. These are usually pitchers who have fringe stuff. You cannot get by on fringe stuff while giving away free passes.

What is fringe stuff? 87 mph with no particular good secondary pitches? Rasner is not a fifth guy by any stretch of the imagination.

Karstens, could give you an ERA of 5.00 with about 5 IP per start. That's probably an ideal fifth starter. This is the Yankees however, not the Royals. They can do better than that. (Meche, Wolf, etc.)

ORS
11-12-2006, 09:47 AM
His career best was in the National League. I think that had a lot more to do with his success than a pitching coach who led the second worst staff in all of baseball this year.
ERA+ accounts for that, and the best pitching of his career occurred under Mazzone.

Yes, a lot of Mazzone's success was due to having talented pitchers, but he appears to have gotten a lot of production out of his talent, which is what the pitching coach's job is. It is for this very reason that the O's had a horrible year last year. He didn't have much to work with. Mazzone is one of the game's best pitching coaches, and I think he'll help Wright out next year. This won't put the O's over the top by any stretch of the imagination, but he'll improve their rotation.

ORS
11-12-2006, 10:06 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm coming around to see it your way Jackson. Devern Hansack was awesome in his cup of coffee. The Sox have some real value there. More depth for the staff. [/sarcasm]

There's a reason nobody is listing this guy as part of the legit SP options for the Sox next year. Same thing goes with Tavarez as a SP. They are the guys you use when the shit hits the fan. They are not who you want to count on going into the season. Same principle holds for Karstens and Rasner. Count them as options for the Yankees all you want, but you aren't fooling anyone.

a700hitter
11-12-2006, 10:09 AM
Yeah, he will. He's had 50 IP of major league success, and he's routinely blown away batters at the minor league level. He throws hard, and his decent control. He won't be a dominate setup man, but he can help a bullpen out.

I don't know why you have a massive prospect phobia, but it's hindering your ability to think. Seriously man, this is Jaret Wright. A guy, I loved to see pitching for the Yankees. The Yankees would have been lucky to receive a used condom for this guy. He was lucky his ERA didn't soar over 6.00 this year. Unless Mazzone can summon that magic potion that he used to resurrect Wright's career in Atlanta, (key word Atlanta) this was an underwhelming move by the Orioles. Why Steinbrenner was dumb enough to give this guy three years is beyond me.I don't think Jaret Wright is a great pitcher, and I did n't think he would be staying with the Yankees in 2007. They dumped him and they got what they could for him. Bravo. They gave up a pitcher with 11 wins for a guy that blew 3 of his 4 save opportunities and had the following stats against the Red Sox:

Situation IP W L ERA SV BB SO
vs Boston 5.0 0 0 7.20 0 3 6
at Fenway Park 2.0 0 0 18.00 0 2 3

I am pretty comfortable with those stats, and I'm not going to break into a sweat when I see him on the mound. I'll probably be very glad to see him on the mound.

Here's Wrights's stats against the Red Sox:

Category W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO INN H R ER HR HBP BB SO AVG
vs. Bos. 1 1 3.18 4 3 0 0 0 0 17.0 17 6 6 2 1 7 7 .258
Not too shabby.
Let's not be ready to give Cashman the Executive of the year for shedding salary with Sheffield and Wright. Abreu and Lidle for 3 bags of shit---that was a raping. Praise him for that, but not for these two moves, which are just freeing up finances for his impact moves.

MC Hammer
11-12-2006, 10:23 AM
I don't think Jaret Wright is a great pitcher, and I did n't think he would be staying with the Yankees in 2007. They dumped him and they got what they could for him. Bravo. They gave up a pitcher with 11 wins for a guy that blew 3 of his 4 save opportunities and had the following stats against the Red Sox:

Situation IP W L ERA SV BB SO
vs Boston 5.0 0 0 7.20 0 3 6
at Fenway Park 2.0 0 0 18.00 0 2 3

I am pretty comfortable with those stats, and I'm not going to break into a sweat when I see him on the mound. I'll probably be very glad to see him on the mound.

Here's Wrights's stats against the Red Sox:

Category W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO INN H R ER HR HBP BB SO AVG
vs. Bos. 1 1 3.18 4 3 0 0 0 0 17.0 17 6 6 2 1 7 7 .258
Not too shabby.
Let's not be ready to give Cashman the Executive of the year for shedding salary with Sheffield and Wright. Abreu and Lidle for 3 bags of shit---that was a raping. Praise him for that, but not for these two moves, which are just freeing up finances for his impact moves.

Being able to trade a player who said he would be a major pain in the ass to the team that got him is truely amazing to me. Plus the fact that Sheff is an injury riddled 40 something former roid user. Any trade in which the Yankee were able to get rid of the cancer that is Sheffield is an amazing move.

a700hitter
11-12-2006, 10:37 AM
Being able to trade a player who said he would be a major pain in the ass to the team that got him is truely amazing to me. Plus the fact that Sheff is an injury riddled 40 something former roid user. Any trade in which the Yankee were able to get rid of the cancer that is Sheffield is an amazing move.Amazing? They could have been rid of him just by not picking up his option.

MC Hammer
11-12-2006, 10:40 AM
Amazing? They could have been rid of him just by not picking up his option.
Yeah but they actually got something for him. They could have let him walk, but instead they were able to spin him off for some usefull pieces.

Optimist
11-12-2006, 10:43 AM
Don't bother. The Yankees could trade their Low - A backup catcher for Johan Santana and 700 would be talking about how the Yankees are destroying their farm system for aging talents.

a700hitter
11-12-2006, 10:49 AM
Don't bother. The Yankees could trade their Low - A backup catcher for Johan Santana and 700 would be talking about how the Yankees are destroying their farm system for aging talents.Find a post where I have ever criticized the Yankees for destroying their farm system. I am on record in numerous posts praising Cashman for the Abreu robbery and the Craig Wilson deal. Red Sox fan on these boards got annoyed at me and told me to go root for the Yankees. Optimist, if you are going to take a shot, please know what you are talking about instead of just shitting up the board.

a700hitter
11-12-2006, 10:50 AM
Yeah but they actually got something for him. They could have let him walk, but instead they were able to spin him off for some usefull pieces.Only time will tell how useful these pieces will be.

MC Hammer
11-12-2006, 11:04 AM
Only time will tell how useful these pieces will be.
Well I'm not saying any of them are going to get them to the playoffs, but even some production in the minors is better than getting nothing.

MC Hammer
11-12-2006, 11:05 AM
Find a post where I have ever criticized the Yankees for destroying their farm system. I am on record in numerous posts praising Cashman for the Abreu robbery and the Craig Wilson deal. Red Sox fan on these boards got annoyed at me and told me to go root for the Yankees. Optimist, if you are going to take a shot, please know what you are talking about instead of just shitting up the board.
700 is right, and I'm one of the people that told him daily to go root for the Yanks.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 12:16 PM
Only time will tell how useful these pieces will be.

Right now, getting a 23 yr old power arm with a solid rookie season is a nice thing to get for free.

ORS
11-12-2006, 12:27 PM
Right now, getting a 23 yr old power arm with a solid rookie season is a nice thing to get for free.
And you'd be right if that were the case, but it wasn't. They gave up Jaret Wright and $ for him. No amount of internet rumors can change that. If you are going to continue with the fabrication of it being free, then I'm done talking about it.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 12:53 PM
And you'd be right if that were the case, but it wasn't. They gave up Jaret Wright and $ for him. No amount of internet rumors can change that. If you are going to continue with the fabrication of it being free, then I'm done talking about it.

ORS, there were NY Post reports as well as other lesser NY reports that the yankees were going to buy out the remaining yr on Wright's contract. The buyout was for 4 mil on a 7 mil contract. Hence, they were going to spend 4 million to get rid of Jaret Wright. In this deal, the yankees are getting rid of Jaret Wright for 4 million dollars and are receiving a 23 yr old power arm in return. How is my saying that the Yankees are getting a 23 yr old power arm for free wrong? The orioles put the impetus on this move because they want to get Jaret Wright for 3 mil. If he hit the open market, then he would likely command 5-6 mil a yr. Hence, they saved 2-3 million next yr alone by making this move. It cost them a 23 yr old power arm to do so. On the yankees end, they got Britton for free. On the Baltimore end, it was a cost conscious move. If Mazzone can get him righted, then the deal will be worth something.

AlexanderTheGreat13
11-12-2006, 01:03 PM
Ah please Jaret Wright sucks. Do I think this is the greatest trade of all time? No, but considering the lack of bullpen arms on the FA market and our pen lack of depth I like this trade. Wright can be easily replaced by guys like Gil Meche and Ted Lilly. In fact if the Yankees wanted too I'm sure Phil Hughes could do what Jaret Wright did last year. Wright wont be missed.

ORS
11-12-2006, 01:10 PM
They still need to replace Britton. Perhaps they go with MiLB options and it was a true cost saving move, but if they replace him with someone on the market, there goes the savings.

I don't think Baltimore makes that move if they think Wright is going to hit the market. Sure, by trading for him they save money on him and assure they get him, but it creates another hole. Angelos is not averse to spending money. Keeping Britton and signing Wright makes much more sense.

I'm unsure as to why any one would lend credence to anything the NY Post reports. They make a happy living on being wrong in regards to roster moves.

Optimist
11-12-2006, 04:11 PM
It's official. (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20061112&content_id=1739420&vkey=pr_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)

riverside sluggers
11-12-2006, 04:18 PM
Ah please Jaret Wright sucks. Do I think this is the greatest trade of all time? No, but considering the lack of bullpen arms on the FA market and our pen lack of depth I like this trade. Wright can be easily replaced by guys like Gil Meche and Ted Lilly. In fact if the Yankees wanted too I'm sure Phil Hughes could do what Jaret Wright did last year. Wright wont be missed.

The Yanks' Triple A relief corp is looking to be solid by addition of 3 young promising relief pitchers. Good insurance during the season when they need to call someone up to the majors

AlexanderTheGreat13
11-12-2006, 04:31 PM
The Yanks' Triple A relief corp is looking to be solid by addition of 3 young promising relief pitchers. Good insurance during the season when they need to call someone up to the majors

I was talking more about the majors. Farnsworth was ok last season, Proctor threw 100 innings last season so we will see how he bounces back, Ron Villion flamed out. I do like Brain Bruney alot. I do expect some contributions from guys like JB Cox during the season.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 05:15 PM
I was talking more about the majors. Farnsworth was ok last season, Proctor threw 100 innings last season so we will see how he bounces back, Ron Villion flamed out. I do like Brain Bruney alot. I do expect some contributions from guys like JB Cox during the season.

That bullpen still has Mo.
Farns is still a pretty good middle reliever.
Proctor was solid, but yr 2 will be telling.
Bruney was solid, his heater is amazing, but will those walks hurt him?
Britton had a very strong yr with some serious work in his first MLB season. Can he lose weight?
Myers was solid as a lefty specialist and is under contract.

That is 5 options that are under contract. If you consider that Rasner or Karstens will make the team as the long man, Cox may be up, and Villone may be back, then some guys are gonna have to move either to another team or to the minors.

Gom
11-12-2006, 05:33 PM
Why are people assuming Cashman was going to buy him out? Because that's what they would have done? Newsflash, none of you work in baseball ops for a reason. I haven't seen that reported anywhere, so lets not give somebody credit for something that didn't happen. If the Orioles had any inclination to believe he would have been available for money only, they would have waited.

How about reading the article whose link was posted above? I can't blame you for not knowing what goes on in NY, but when it is STATED so in the article above, I assumed you would read it instead of just guessing.

Right, because the Yankees can force them to sign with them. There are strong indications that Schmidt isn't interested in leaving the west coast. And, while Zito has expressed interest in the NY market, there's another team with WIN-NOW written all over them and ever more grave needs in the rotation (and they have a GM not afraid of handing out big $$). No guarantees there.
Nope, no guarantees there at all. However, it does look like the Yankees are going to make a stronger push than most expected in the Free Agent market. Most assumed one starting pitcher, now it looks like at least two or three. As you Red Sox fans love to point out, money talks. If any of you remember, eveyone used to say that the Yankees was the LAST place Mussina would ever go to.


Wright reuniting with Mazzone is relevant. I mean, it has to be with someone like you who wanted to congratulate the Yankees for deciding where Sheff went. If they get credit there, they get blame here. Trading Wright, while not the fear inducing player Sheff can be, to the O's was the worst possible place. His career best was with Mazzone, and they play the O's 19 times. Be consistent.
I think we can agree with each other that management in Baltimore is about as dumb as they get. The fact that the Yankees got what should be a serviceable reliever who should make their staff this year for someone they were going to buy out anyways in 24 hours is amazing [and incredibly short-sighted by the Orioles]. Unlike Sheffield, the Yankees didn't hold an option for a year. They had an option to expire in 24 hours. I'm sure the Red Sox didn't quake in their boots when you found out Wright was starting. Neither will we. Mazzone does well with pitchers, that is a given, but this is the AL East, which, last I checked, had better hitting than the NL East two years ago.

AlexanderTheGreat13
11-12-2006, 05:44 PM
With 2 spots now open in the roation and RJ a question mark to be ready for opening day it should be intresting to see who the Yankees target on the market.

rician blast
11-12-2006, 05:55 PM
The Yanks' Triple A relief corp is looking to be solid by addition of 3 young promising relief pitchers. Good insurance during the season when they need to call someone up to the majors


also good trade bait. don't bet the house on all of these guys remaining with the Yankees.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 07:28 PM
I can bet something is cooking.

Coco's Disciples
11-12-2006, 07:28 PM
Probably. Whaddya thinks goin on down there?

Gom
11-12-2006, 08:20 PM
Probably. Whaddya thinks goin on down there?

Well, I'm not sure what pitchers are available for trade. However, I can see the Yanks packaging some of the new prospects they have for an established starter. Either that, and/or an incredibly aggressive Yankees front office in the starting pitching market.

jacksonianmarch
11-12-2006, 08:57 PM
I think it depends. If the Yankees got Matsuzaka then they wont need to do anything. If the yankees like Zito and can go balls to the wall for him, then they wont need to do anything. If Zito is wearing those hideous Mets colors next yr, then the yankees may need to consider something. Schmidt is an ace, but an aging one with injury trouble. Pettitte looks like his heart isnt in it. Clemens is Jaret Wright nowadays in terms of durability. Other than that, there are a few Clement-esque guys out there with potential over production and that's it. If the yankees resign Mussina, that gives them RJ, Mussina, and Wang. RJ is coming off back surgery and may not be ready for 07 right out of the gate. Mussina has had his share of arm and groin trouble. That is just the top 3. The 4 and 5 slots are wide open as of right now. Pavano is a wild card. If he can eat innings like he did in the past and post a sub 5 era, then he could be a solid 4. If he cannot, then that leaves the last 2 spots wide open. I think regardless, they need to land a good starter. If they dont get Zito, and are as low on Schmidt and Pettitte as I am, then they may make a deal for a power pitcher that fits their mould. There are players out there who have been bandied about. Guys like Peavy, Oswalt (not likely), Sheets, etc who may be available at a price. Or, they could decide to fill their holes with a second tier guy and wait for Sanchez and Hughes to develop. That is what I would do, as I think both Hughes and Sanchez could team with Wang and be a top 3 for the next 10 yrs that wont be rivalled, but we know the old MO and this may be wishful thinking.

Gom
11-13-2006, 03:13 AM
I think you are off here, JM. I think that the Yankees will make a serious push and get at least one, if not both of the remaining free agent starters [I am already writing off Matsuzaka to the Red Sox]. That said, I can see them dealing all for a front line starter. I don't know much about the prospects the Yankees got, however, I wonder, and stress wonder, if they would be enough for a Peavy, Oswalt, or Sheets. Can anyone give me an opinion here?

jacksonianmarch
11-13-2006, 06:17 AM
I dont know what to think about that issue. Thing is, the yankees will have 4 spots in their rotation filled with players under contract.

1. RJ - done after 07
2. Mussina- done after 08
3. Wang- controlled for another 4 yrs
4. Pavano- done after 08
5. ???

The one hole that will open up after this season will be filled by Hughes barring injury setback. That big hole in the rotation needs to be filled by a big name starter, I agree. Zito is the only guy I'd throw $$ at though. Young, left handed in yankee stadium is a good thing. But if you get 2 starters, that leaves 6 guys under big contract for 07. Pavano has no market yet, so you have to hope that he starts the season in the rotation and proves he is worth a flier by another team if you want him gone. I also could see the logic that says a pitcher who proves his worth could always be dealt for more prospects, but you cannot clog the holes for these young guys, at least not long term. We'll see, but I would be skeptical fo getting 2, but I definitely agree on 1.

ORS
11-13-2006, 07:04 AM
How about reading the article whose link was posted above? I can't blame you for not knowing what goes on in NY, but when it is STATED so in the article above, I assumed you would read it instead of just guessing.
Excuse me for not believing something written in the NY Post. They really are a bastion of brilliant information regarding baseball moves. Kind of like you.


Mazzone does well with pitchers, that is a given, but this is the AL East, which, last I checked, had better hitting than the NL East two years ago.
Already posted this, and it didn't even require you to follow a link, so perhaps you should heed your advice about reading things. ERA+ accounts for league (and park). The best period of Jaret Wright's career was when he was pitching with Mazzone as his pitching coach.

Look, I agree that Baltimore struggles due to poor management. But is it so unrealistic for me to believe that they were aware of these rumors that the Yankees were going to let Wright go? Regardless of the folly of some of their moves, they are still paid professionals operating a big league club. There's no way they didn't know about these stories. For some reason, they thought they needed to act now in order to get him, so it's a safe bet that they didn't put much credence into them. Otherwise, they could have just signed him when the FA season begins and kept Britton.

ORS
11-13-2006, 07:19 AM
I think you are off here, JM. I think that the Yankees will make a serious push and get at least one, if not both of the remaining free agent starters [I am already writing off Matsuzaka to the Red Sox]. That said, I can see them dealing all for a front line starter. I don't know much about the prospects the Yankees got, however, I wonder, and stress wonder, if they would be enough for a Peavy, Oswalt, or Sheets. Can anyone give me an opinion here?
Houston is entering the tail end of Berkman's prime and they just extended Biggio. This doesn't suggest rebuild to me, and moving Oswalt will probably only occur when they start that process. They just lost Clemens and Pettitte (probably), so they have money to burn. If anything, I expect them to be serious contenders for the coveted FA pitchers.

If they don't get unlucky with injuries, Milwaukee looks like the class of the NL Central going into next year. Good pitching staff and loaded with young talent all over the field. Sheets is the franchise pitcher, but Davis is a FA after '07, so perhaps they would move him.

SD made the playoffs with an off year from Peavy. They are another team that looks good moving forward with a bunch of good young talent, and rumors have it that Wells may actually give it another go with them. Trading Peavy now seriously hurts their chances.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but these are some of the game's best pitchers. Beckett cost the Sox their best position prospect and a top pitching prospect. He had less track record than either of them, so I don't think discussions take place unless Hughes is involved. All indications point to Cashman not moving Hughes in any deal, so I'm skeptical that this is a possibility. Stranger things have happened though.

Gom
11-13-2006, 02:13 PM
Excuse me for not believing something written in the NY Post. They really are a bastion of brilliant information regarding baseball moves. Kind of like you.

Actually, it was the Baltimore Sun, not the NY Post. Where did you get the NY Post from? Also, AP picked up on it, as well as foxsports. I didn't see any reason to post other links.

Already posted this, and it didn't even require you to follow a link, so perhaps you should heed your advice about reading things. ERA+ accounts for league (and park). The best period of Jaret Wright's career was when he was pitching with Mazzone as his pitching coach.

Look, I agree that Baltimore struggles due to poor management. But is it so unrealistic for me to believe that they were aware of these rumors that the Yankees were going to let Wright go? Regardless of the folly of some of their moves, they are still paid professionals operating a big league club. There's no way they didn't know about these stories. For some reason, they thought they needed to act now in order to get him, so it's a safe bet that they didn't put much credence into them. Otherwise, they could have just signed him when the FA season begins and kept Britton.

I do believe so. Just because you work for a professional sports team does not make you a true "professional" at your job. Professionals have made serious errors in judgement, most notably trades and signings. Kazmir for Zambrano, Twins letting Ortiz go, the list would number in the thousands...there was also this guy named George Herman who was traded.

I absolutely believe that one or more of the following happened 1) they did not hear the rumors that the Yankees were going to release Wright 2) They were afraid he would sign elsewhere 3) They didn't want to risk Wright going onto the market, lol 4) the Oriole front office are a bunch of morons

ORS
11-13-2006, 02:20 PM
Actually, it was the Baltimore Sun, not the NY Post. Where did you get the NY Post from? Also, AP picked up on it, as well as foxsports. I didn't see any reason to post other links.
Jacksonian said it was in the Post.


I do believe so. Just because you work for a professional sports team does not make you a true "professional" at your job. Professionals have made serious errors in judgement, most notably trades and signings. Kazmir for Zambrano, Twins letting Ortiz go, the list would number in the thousands...there was also this guy named George Herman who was traded.

I absolutely believe that one or more of the following happened 1) they did not hear the rumors that the Yankees were going to release Wright 2) They were afraid he would sign elsewhere 3) They didn't want to risk Wright going onto the market, lol 4) the Oriole front office are a bunch of morons
They don't read the sports section of the local paper? Come on, you can't really believe that.

Gom
11-13-2006, 03:13 PM
They don't read the sports section of the local paper? Come on, you can't really believe that.

Nothing else makes sense. The only thing that makes any sense at all is that they believed it would have cost them more money than 3 million to sign him, and Britton was worth it to them.

ORS
11-13-2006, 03:27 PM
Plenty of other things make sense. Like, perhaps, they didn't believe media "sources"/speculation. Or that their evaluations had him costing more than the $3M + Reliever to replace Britton. Those make sense. Them not reading the sports section of the local paper, or following media coverage of the hot stove season at all, makes very little sense.

Gom
11-13-2006, 05:24 PM
I see your points, and they are valid. I just think giving up a major league capable player for him was way too much. Maybe I'm jaded, because of how bad he was last year, but from the Yankees viewpoint, it was a no-brainer of a deal. Literally, something for nothing. It actually isn't all that bad for the Orioles as well. I just think the Yankees would have accepted a mid-level Double A prospect, not someone who could make their 25 man roster next season.

Trust me, they weren't keeping this guy.

yankeessuck013
11-13-2006, 07:17 PM
So, the Yankees have cut 20 million from the pay roll in 1 weekend

Its interesting what they want in return to. All young arms

They could be doing this for a multitude of reason. The 2 that I think are the most plausable are:

1.They have rededicated themselves to rebuilding the Farm system and have taken the attack the problem w/ numbers approach. There first 8 draft picks were pitchers this year and they seem to be gearing themselves on getting there future pitchers from the farm system rather then going the FA route which they have been burned on lately. Pitchers also retain there value and are much more valuable chips in trades. The returns wont be immediate but I think they know they have to rebuild the farm system. They went from having no pitching prospects that projected to be future aces to having 3 and maybe 4.

or

2.The Yankees are loading up for a big trade. By aquiring as many young pitching prospects as they can they can make a competitive offer for say a Willis or a Kazmir. Kazmir is highly unlikely but isnt a player the Rays would consider trading untill the are fully certain he wont resign. The reality is that the Yankkes dont have to many movable parts at the major league level so by aquiring prospects they make themselves more flexible in the future.

ORS
11-13-2006, 07:26 PM
I see your points, and they are valid. I just think giving up a major league capable player for him was way too much. Maybe I'm jaded, because of how bad he was last year, but from the Yankees viewpoint, it was a no-brainer of a deal. Literally, something for nothing. It actually isn't all that bad for the Orioles as well. I just think the Yankees would have accepted a mid-level Double A prospect, not someone who could make their 25 man roster next season.

Trust me, they weren't keeping this guy.
I don't doubt that they would have accepted something less. But your point about this being a good fit for the O's is kind of what I've been maintaining all along. And, that was the only reason I got involved in the thread. Jacksonian is busy scurrying after Cashman with a buffing wheel for his nutsack on every trade the Yankees have made calling them rapings. In both cases (Sheffield and Wright) the other team got better too. Not what I'd call a raping.

jacksonianmarch
11-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Someone is in a pissy mood today. ORS, are you incapable to give your enemies credit when they do something well?

Here is the reason why I am "buffing nutsack" over these deals. How many people on here thought that the yankees would have to "dump" Gary Sheffield while eating some salary? This was mostly due to his perception as a grumpy old slugger coming off a major injury. How is it then, that the yankees were able to deal Sheff without eating any money while adding 3 quality arms to their farm system, one of which is a top tier prospect with ace potential. Pretty good for a guy who was supposed to be dumped with cash going his direction eh?

Jaret Wright was going to be bought out for 4 mil. Instead, they got a young, fireballing pitcher who had a solid rookie season in the major league for Jaret Wright and the 4 mil the yankees were going to use to buyout Jaret Wright anyway.

In all, the board was expecting the total transaction to be

Leaving NY
Sheffield + 5-6mil
Jaret Wright + 4mil

Coming to NY
shitty prospect #1 for Sheff and nothing for Wright

Instead, the yankees dealt sheffield, wright, and 4 mil for 4 fireballing 23 or under pitchers, one with MLB experience and one at AAA with #1 potential. It is not just about helping both teams ORS. It is about perceived value and getting more than the value that you are giving up. The yankees got a lot more than anyone would give then credit for, for 2 players who would not have had a role had they stayed.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:04 PM
Someone is in a pissy mood today. ORS, are you incapable to give your enemies credit when they do something well?

Here is the reason why I am "buffing nutsack" over these deals. How many people on here thought that the yankees would have to "dump" Gary Sheffield while eating some salary? This was mostly due to his perception as a grumpy old slugger coming off a major injury. How is it then, that the yankees were able to deal Sheff without eating any money while adding 3 quality arms to their farm system, one of which is a top tier prospect with ace potential. Pretty good for a guy who was supposed to be dumped with cash going his direction eh?

Jaret Wright was going to be bought out for 4 mil. Instead, they got a young, fireballing pitcher who had a solid rookie season in the major league for Jaret Wright and the 4 mil the yankees were going to use to buyout Jaret Wright anyway.

In all, the board was expecting the total transaction to be

Leaving NY
Sheffield + 5-6mil
Jaret Wright + 4mil

Coming to NY
shitty prospect #1 for Sheff and nothing for Wright

Instead, the yankees dealt sheffield, wright, and 4 mil for 4 fireballing 23 or under pitchers, one with MLB experience and one at AAA with #1 potential. It is not just about helping both teams ORS. It is about perceived value and getting more than the value that you are giving up. The yankees got a lot more than anyone would give then credit for, for 2 players who would not have had a role had they stayed.For the last time, congratulations on dumping a borderline Hall of Fame outfielder and an 11 game winner for one fat pitcher with 50 innings and about a 10 ERA against the Red Sox and three lottery tickets. Big accomplishment. :rolleyes:

Optimist
11-13-2006, 09:08 PM
Matsuzaka's a 'lottery ticket' but you seem quite content with that. And those 50 innings for Britton are 50 more than a guy you're willing to pay $40+ million for just to negotiate with.

AlexanderTheGreat13
11-13-2006, 09:10 PM
For the last time, congratulations on dumping a borderline Hall of Fame outfielder


Exactly. What FO is going to want to give up talent for a $13 million dollar old and damaged ballplayer that is on record that he will probably be unhappy on your team.

You changed your tone pretty quickly.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:17 PM
You changed your tone pretty quickly.


Originally Posted by a700hitter
Exactly. What FO is going to want to give up talent for a $13 million dollar old and damaged ballplayer that is on record that he will probably be unhappy on your team.I guess you missed the part in that quote about him being "unhappy." By extending him by two years they made him happy, and the deal became attractive to the Tigers.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:18 PM
Matsuzaka's a 'lottery ticket' but you seem quite content with that. And those 50 innings for Britton are 50 more than a guy you're willing to pay $40+ million for just to negotiate with.Eat your heart out.

AlexanderTheGreat13
11-13-2006, 09:20 PM
I guess you missed the part in that quote about him being "unhappy." By extending him by two years they made him happy, and the deal became attractive to the Tigers.

No, you still called him an old and damaged ball player. All of a sudden the Yankees get value for him and you remind us that hes a borderline hall of fame OFer. Thats quite convenient.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:26 PM
No, you still called him an old and damaged ball player. All of a sudden the Yankees get value for him and you remind us that hes a borderline hall of fame OFer. Thats quite convenient.He is old and damaged, and he is a borderline hall of famer. No? That being said, he can put up 30 - 35 HRs. The 3 year contract made him a happy camper so he will not be a distraction. I guess you also missed the part about "giving up talent." I am on record called these three guys lottery tickets. Getting Maroth or Miner would be talent.

Optimist
11-13-2006, 09:26 PM
No, you still called him an old and damaged ball player. All of a sudden the Yankees get value for him and you remind us that hes a borderline hall of fame OFer. Thats quite convenient.

Don't bother. Just sit back and enjoy the show.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:28 PM
Don't bother. Just sit back and enjoy the show.Laugh away. I am having a ball.

yankeessuck013
11-13-2006, 09:39 PM
Matsuzaka's a 'lottery ticket' but you seem quite content with that. And those 50 innings for Britton are 50 more than a guy you're willing to pay $40+ million for just to negotiate with.

Pretty weird/gutsy statement considering you were one person who really wanted him on the NYY.

Optimist
11-13-2006, 09:46 PM
Pretty weird/gutsy statement considering you were one person who really wanted him on the NYY.

I was? I wanted him, undoubtedly. Not for $40 - $50 million (plus whatever contract)...but I did want him.

Anyways, I made the statement because it's true. And I find it hilarious to watch someone who's spent days bashing the highly touted prospects the Yankees have received as 'unproven' and then, in the same breath, defend spending tens of millions (perhaps close to $100 million) on a guy who hasn't thrown a single pitch in any level of American baseball.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:47 PM
Pretty weird/gutsy statement considering you were one person who really wanted him on the NYY.She doesn't even see her own double standards. It's quite amusing.

Optimist
11-13-2006, 09:49 PM
Enlighten me. We've seen many examples of yours, but I haven't really see one for me. Not once, to my memory, have I said anything about Matsuzaka and changed it the instant he looked like he was going to the Sox.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 09:51 PM
I was? I wanted him, undoubtedly. Not for $40 - $50 million (plus whatever contract)...but I did want him.

Anyways, I made the statement because it's true. And I find it hilarious to watch someone who's spent days bashing the highly touted prospects the Yankees have received as 'unproven' and then, in the same breath, defend spending tens of millions (perhaps close to $100 million) on a guy who hasn't thrown a single pitch in any level of American baseball.And Godzilla didn't have on AB in America, but guess who I picked with the number 1 pick in my leagues minor league draft. That's right... I didn't pick the guys from AA or AAA. You are having a hard time dealing with this whole Matsazuka thing. Well, you can still cling to the hope that he only wants to paly for the Yankees.

yankeessuck013
11-13-2006, 09:53 PM
the bid does not count against the payroll...why is that so hard to understand.

John Henry's been saving millions of dollars per year. 40-50 million is chump change to a billionaire like him.

Optimist
11-13-2006, 09:58 PM
Yeah, feel free to keep rolling that line out.

Anyways, if you guys want to pay that much for him...go ahead; I honestly don't care. I'm not going to moan and whine all winter like another fan base would (and has.) The Yankees can, and most likely will, find a more than suitable answer to their pitching question elsewhere.

jacksonianmarch
11-13-2006, 10:10 PM
For the last time, congratulations on dumping a borderline Hall of Fame outfielder and an 11 game winner for one fat pitcher with 50 innings and about a 10 ERA against the Red Sox and three lottery tickets. Big accomplishment. :rolleyes:

beats your initial prediction.


You will be able to keep [sheffield] from Boston, but you will have to eat some of the $13 million.

schillingouttheks
11-13-2006, 10:12 PM
Yeah, feel free to keep rolling that line out.

Anyways, if you guys want to pay that much for him...go ahead; I honestly don't care. I'm not going to moan and whine all winter like another fan base would (and has.) The Yankees can, and most likely will, find a more than suitable answer to their pitching question elsewhere.

You didn't have a fan favorite betray you that quickly. Nor have you had a FO that made a terrible move that kind of hurt your own team during the season.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 10:21 PM
beats your initial prediction.Not really, because I thought the Yankees were looking for a major league player in return.

jacksonianmarch
11-13-2006, 10:44 PM
Not really, because I thought the Yankees were looking for a major league player in return.

They got something a lot better than random major leaguer X. They got an projected ace of a rotation who is already in AAA. Most of the time, when you trade away a big time prospect, you do so before they prove they can handle the upper levels of the minors. At that point, he becomes untouchable. I dont know who Cashman had to blow to get this deal done, but he got a guy who had proven himself in the minors and should have been labelled as an untouchable.

a700hitter
11-13-2006, 10:53 PM
They got something a lot better than random major leaguer X. They got an projected ace of a rotation who is already in AAA. Most of the time, when you trade away a big time prospect, you do so before they prove they can handle the upper levels of the minors. At that point, he becomes untouchable. I dont know who Cashman had to blow to get this deal done, but he got a guy who had proven himself in the minors and should have been labelled as an untouchable.Congratulations on this blue-chip prospect. I'm thrilled for you.:rolleyes:

jacksonianmarch
11-14-2006, 06:12 AM
Congratulations on this blue-chip prospect. I'm thrilled for you.:rolleyes:

I wonder how thrilled you were about having Jon Lester come up to the team (prior to his leukemia, good luck kid). Or with having Anibal in your system. Or with having Papelbon come up to the bigs. This kid is on their level of prospects.

Optimist
11-14-2006, 02:24 PM
Prior to this year, Humberto was ranked #3 among Tiger minor league pitchers. Who were the two pitchers in front of him? Guys by the name of Verlander and Zumaya.

rician blast
11-14-2006, 02:41 PM
I think the Yankees have done ok so far this offseason, picking up the young pitchers they have obtained. I also think they are poised to make some trades that will improve their pitching staff NOW as opposed to waiting for the kids to develop and would expect a trade this offseason which brings more depth to their staff.

ORS
11-14-2006, 03:23 PM
Someone is in a pissy mood today. ORS, are you incapable to give your enemies credit when they do something well?
Sure am. I said both trades were good fits. When you make a good fit trade, you are doing well. Is this hard to understand?

I don't see where either of these moves can be categorized as rapings. For you to go so far out of your way to defend that notion says a lot about your "unrevealed" allegiances.

a700hitter
11-14-2006, 10:13 PM
I wonder how thrilled you were about having Jon Lester come up to the team (prior to his leukemia, good luck kid). Or with having Anibal in your system. Or with having Papelbon come up to the bigs. This kid is on their level of prospects.I'll tell you how thrilled I was about Lester. Many on these boards remember my criticism of Lester as not being ML ready after being disappointed in his velocity, command and stuff when I saw him at Spring Training. Plus, none of those guys cost us our #4 hitter. I would not be too thrilled about that.

schillingouttheks
11-14-2006, 10:15 PM
I'll tell you how thrilled I was about Lester. Many on these boards remember my criticism of Lester as not being ML ready after being disappointed in his velocity, command and stuff when I saw him at Spring Training. Plus, none of those guys cost us our #4 hitter. I would not be too thrilled about that.

I'll back you on that one. You did say you were disappointed when you saw him in March.

This is terrible...so brace yourself and don't get your panties in a bunch, but I remember my friend dropped Lester from his fantasy team shortly after he was diagnosed with cancer. The next day he said to me... "Dude, I feel like an asshole...I just dropped Lester because he has cancer..." I couldn't help but laugh :lol:

jacksonianmarch
11-14-2006, 10:16 PM
I'll tell you how thrilled I was about Lester. Many on these boards remember my criticism of Lester as not being ML ready after being disappointed in his velocity, command and stuff when I saw him at Spring Training. Plus, none of those guys cost us our #4 hitter. I would not be too thrilled about that.

That #4 hitter had no position. He did not want to play 1b and to be quite honest, he sucked as a 1b. Giambi will be a full time DH this yr and the OF is full. Where would he have played? He had no position. He had to be dealt. One BA writer said that the 4 guys the yankees got will likely be in their top 30 of organizational prospects with Whelan and Sanchez being top 10. You cannot really go wrong there.

Also, I was being theoretical about Lester here. Consider Paps then. Hard throwing beast coming up through the system.

a700hitter
11-14-2006, 10:29 PM
That #4 hitter had no position..Because no one will take that overpaid useless bag of shit Giambi. Was he also a Tampa move?

jacksonianmarch
11-14-2006, 10:31 PM
Because no one will take that overpaid useless bag of shit Giambi. Was he also a Tampa move?

Absolutely. Big Stein loved Giambi. At the same time Giambi was the yankees biggest offensive weapon when they needed one. He was not worthless over the past 2 yrs.

a700hitter
11-14-2006, 10:32 PM
Absolutely. Big Stein loved Giambi. At the same time Giambi was the yankees biggest offensive weapon when they needed one. He was not worthless over the past 2 yrs.Cashman is way overpaid, because he apparently does nothing.

jacksonianmarch
11-14-2006, 10:50 PM
He did nothing while stein was ruining the empire. He was a figurehead, a guy who took the brunt of the media while doing nothing. His power started with him being given money to sign their draft picks. It is funny, but the team that spends the most money in baseball was notoriously cheap with their draft picks. This changed with Cashman. He drafted guys who were the best available rather than who will sign. He obtained the best pitching prospect in the majors as well as having a very fine draft this past season where he actually drafted a 2nd-3rd round choice #1 but got 3 first round talents in the supplemental, 8th and 9th rounds respectively. If you look at BA's top 10 for the yankees, you will see his influence. Hughes is the top dog with Tabata (also his signing) at 2. Humberto Sanchez is expected to be the yankees #3 prospect which was Cash's trade. The 4 is Dellin Betances who was drafted last yr as is the 5 (joba chamberlain). The other guys on the list include Clippard, Kennedy, Garcia, Cox and Melancon. If you look at the yankee list, their new top 10 will have 9 pitchers with 3 who might see action in 2007 (Hughes, Sanchez, Clippard). He has honed his minor league system into a way to fight the current market. Bats will always be available, but the arms are hard to come by. He has loaded up the system with pitching, which is something for yankee fans to be excited about. As far as the major league stuff, his biggest thing has been restraint. He restrained on dealing Hughes, Cano, or Wang and so far it looks like a genius move. He was able to wait out Philly's demands and nab Bobby Abreu, who was a huge reason why they won the east. And he then made the 2 trades this offseason that looks really good for dealing away 2 players that had no role. To this point, Cash has done a good job. I was saying the same thing one yr after Epstein wont he WS too and we all know how that worked out. Cautious optimism for the FO of the yankees is in order, but it is something for yankee fans to be optimistic about how their team is run. That hasnt happened for a long time. The spend, spend spend thing is great for the fans for about half the yr, then watching a team of mercs gets old. The young kids bring potential to an old and methodical team. It should be interesting. At the same time, I think Cash's conservative approach has left the yankees vulnerable this yr. We shall see if the sox take advantage.

Mr Crunchy
11-15-2006, 08:57 AM
cashman had a great season getting lidle abreau and wilson on the cheap
he is a figurehead but as someone else said,hes getting more powerful each day

has anyone underachieved more than joe torre over the last 5 seasons??
1billion in payroll and they have the
ALDS PARTICIPANT banner to show their fans

if he fails this season look for them both to be unemployed by november 1st
in torres case maybe by memorial day

jacksonianmarch
11-15-2006, 03:56 PM
cashman had a great season getting lidle abreau and wilson on the cheap
he is a figurehead but as someone else said,hes getting more powerful each day

has anyone underachieved more than joe torre over the last 5 seasons??
1billion in payroll and they have the
ALDS PARTICIPANT banner to show their fans

if he fails this season look for them both to be unemployed by november 1st
in torres case maybe by memorial day

You see, Cashman should get a longer leash. He is changing the organizational philosophy from being an expensive vulture to being a self sustaining machine. That takes time. He should be given enough leash to see how his prize of the draft of 03 and how Humberto work out. If Hughes comes up and busts or if Sanchez flames out, then there will be hell to pay and Cash's head will be on a platter.

As far as Torre is concerned, the guy can manage a team for 162. That is not an issue. The guy knows how to get the most out of his players over the long haul. But that doesnt get the job done in the playoffs, which is the ultimate barometer of success in NY. He does not have the mental faculties anymore to turn his brain on and find a way to win a game. If the bashers arent bashing, and if the pitchers get hit around a little, he cannot will his team to victory. He doesnt do smallball anymore. He cannot manage a staff. He kills solid bullpen pitchers by giving them the ball daily until their arms fall off, etc. He shouldnt be managing any ball club, let alone a 200mil juggernaut.

Mr Crunchy
11-17-2006, 11:28 AM
when the yankees won their titles in the end of the 20th century they played a version of small ball
they put a lot of pressure on defenses with running,occasional sacrifices and timely hits
they were very aggressive on the base paths

that team has long been disbanded in favor of the softball team they got now.
torre maybe a players manager
however
after reading the ny daily news write up about the malaise in their dugout(damon trying to get the guys fired up while the randy johnson is scowling at him)
i feel his time has come and gone

cashman had his best year in 06
so far hes been quiet,this may be the calm before the storm

BudLight
11-17-2006, 12:55 PM
Cashman quiet? He has dumped Sheffield and his $13M and attitude. Sheffield was not a factor last year and the Yanks still won the division, no great loss there. Getting rid of Wright should save a few hundred innings of bullpen work this coming year and the three young pitchers he received from the Tigers are good prospects, something the Yankees need in the future.

Mr Crunchy
11-17-2006, 01:22 PM
he hasnt brought in anyone of significance as of yet which is unusual
the 3 prospects from detroit should make trenton competetive but as far as the big boy show goes theyre of no help

yet

BudLight
11-17-2006, 01:32 PM
he hasnt brought in anyone of significance as of yet which is unusual
the 3 prospects from detroit should make trenton competetive but as far as the big boy show goes theyre of no help

yet

Offensively, there's really no difference from last season. They still need a frontline pitcher for the rotation, but with only Zito and Schmidt available on the FA market, it doesn't bode well for Cashman right now. I would hate to see him package up some of those young pitchers for a starter, but he may not have a choice in a few weeks.

Mr Crunchy
11-17-2006, 02:15 PM
yanks will have no trouble scoring runs again
losing sheff may actually help that team in the long run but hes the 1 guy i feared most in that lineup
losing wright will also help them by keeping their buillpen innings down
people dont consider what a burder a shit bag starter puts on the rest of the staff

see our bullpen for example
how much better would we have been had arroyo and wake been able to pitch 200innings as opposed to the jjjohnsons and the snyders and the dinardos of the world who absolutley destroyed the bullpen with their gross futility

im out for the weekend
good to hear from ya bb
keep your head low ya yankee loving cocksmoker

jacksonianmarch
11-17-2006, 09:36 PM
when the yankees won their titles in the end of the 20th century they played a version of small ball
they put a lot of pressure on defenses with running,occasional sacrifices and timely hits
they were very aggressive on the base paths

that team has long been disbanded in favor of the softball team they got now.
torre maybe a players manager
however
after reading the ny daily news write up about the malaise in their dugout(damon trying to get the guys fired up while the randy johnson is scowling at him)
i feel his time has come and gone

cashman had his best year in 06
so far hes been quiet,this may be the calm before the storm


agreed. Something is up. He is in need of two starting pitchers and a big fish is still available. Yet, he doesnt look to be pursuing him. I think something is afoot and nabbing Sanchez may have been a piece for a future deal.

Gom
11-17-2006, 11:25 PM
As you all know, I am a Yankee fan, and I will go on record saying Torre is useless. He never won elsewhere, and won because of his team, not the other way around.

That said, I like what the Yankees have done so far. I like Cashman better than any GM we have had in recent memory. However, his positioning has helped the Yankees out tremendously. The jury is still out though. If he doesn't acquire Zito, Schmidt, or some other pitcher in a major deal, I'd say the off-season is a failure. This is the prelude [I hope], otherwise, the Yankees won't play in October.

Someone brought up something interesting the other day [on the radio in NY]. If Sheffield had gone on record, agreeing to play first base for the Yankees, do what he could do to help the team win, etc., would I have wanted to trade Sheffield?

The sad answer was no. I would have kept him. We may have made do without him last year, but the guy is a monster, and I know other teams feared him more than any other hitter in our lineup.

Cashman has done well so far, but he has a lot of work left to do.

jacksonianmarch
11-17-2006, 11:33 PM
While I believe that Torre has worn out his welcome, I would NEVER say that he wasnt a major factor in winning WS. He knew how to coach a team that gave him options. He is an old small ball guy, and this team no longer suits his expertise. At the same time, I think he has gotten a little slower in the melon and a little fat and happy with his success. He no longer pushes the right buttons. He no longer forces the power hitter to bunt, he no longer pulls off the hit and run on a daily basis, which was his staple in the 90s. It is time for a change, but he is as much to praise for the dynasty as anyone.

Gom
11-18-2006, 02:13 PM
While I believe that Torre has worn out his welcome, I would NEVER say that he wasnt a major factor in winning WS. He knew how to coach a team that gave him options. He is an old small ball guy, and this team no longer suits his expertise. At the same time, I think he has gotten a little slower in the melon and a little fat and happy with his success. He no longer pushes the right buttons. He no longer forces the power hitter to bunt, he no longer pulls off the hit and run on a daily basis, which was his staple in the 90s. It is time for a change, but he is as much to praise for the dynasty as anyone.

No he wasn't, friend. I could have won 4 World Series since 1996 with the teams the Yankees have given me.

The only time this guy had magic was 1996. Remember though, the Yankees had gotten to the playoffs in 1995 under Showalter, so even there, he inherited a very good team.

Give me a Leyland or Larussa anyd day of the week.

Mr Crunchy
11-20-2006, 03:13 PM
when the yankees were the best in the game they did it playing a little small ball,good defense and a solid 1-5 pitching staff as well as a lites out pen led by rivera and wettland
they had some monster arms,they had guys show up in their twilight and they had some youngsters.

torre was an intricate part of the running game,the hit and runs and using guys at the right place and the right time

if you choose to argue that the yankees wouldve and shouldve won without him due to their talent level i would agree after 2000 but to claim he had nothing to do with their success wouldnt be fair in my opinion and believe me
no one thinks less of joe torres current abilities more than i

jacksonianmarch
11-22-2006, 05:28 PM
another thing Mr. C. When the yankees were the best in the game, they made solid trades. These included the Justice deal, the O'Neill deal, the Knoblauch trade, the Clemens trade, etc. They always seemed to be on the winning end of the deals. I think the deals the yankees have made in the past few yrs have been stalemates at best and total disasters at worst. These most recent deals really look like they could pan out for the yankees, and once they get trades in their favor added to their money, then they will be tough to beat for a long time.

Gom
11-23-2006, 03:41 AM
I don't care what anyone says. Torre is an idiot. I'm a diehard Yankee fan, and he's an idiot. I could have won with the teams he had. The only good job he did was in 1996. The rest was a joke.

jacksonianmarch
11-23-2006, 07:53 AM
I gave you a chance Gom. Now you are just acting like a bratty little kid.

Gom
11-23-2006, 09:58 PM
I gave you a chance Gom. Now you are just acting like a bratty little kid.

Come on Jacks...you have been watching the Yankees long enough. This guy burns out his bullpen every year. He doesn't adapt to the team like a good manager. He doesn't know how to manage guys that don't fit in his mold. You have to agree with me on that point.

Outside of 1996, when was the last time the Yankees won a playoff series when they weren't favored? He got out-managed by Bob Brenly, and Francona for goodness sake! I think the biggest pickup the Yankees could have made was Pinella.Instead, they have a lame-duck Torre. In fact, he was really only good with Zimmer, if you remember. Zimmer was a bench coach, came up with all the ideas.

Case in point. I wish I could remember which game it was, but it was September [or late August] this year, with the Yankees having wrapped up the division after the Boston Massacre II. Karstens is cruising along, throwing a two hitter, and he takes him out with a 4+ run lead late in the game. Why not let him finish? Rest your pen that you burned out. No, he has to pitch Proctor [maybe he has him in his fantasy league], he stinks up the joint, and Rivera has to pitch to save the game.

Even if Proctor shut them down, why waste a day's work with a reliever that you are going to use in the post season, for a rookie who can throw all day since he isn't going to make the post season roster?

This is one example of many, Jacks. Another prominent one is that when THE GM has to talk to THE MANAGER about overusing Ron Villone, then maybe THE MANAGER has no idea what the hell he is doing anymore.

a700hitter
11-23-2006, 11:00 PM
Come on Jacks...you have been watching the Yankees long enough. This guy burns out his bullpen every year. He doesn't adapt to the team like a good manager. He doesn't know how to manage guys that don't fit in his mold. You have to agree with me on that point.

Outside of 1996, when was the last time the Yankees won a playoff series when they weren't favored? He got out-managed by Bob Brenly, and Francona for goodness sake! I think the biggest pickup the Yankees could have made was Pinella.Instead, they have a lame-duck Torre. In fact, he was really only good with Zimmer, if you remember. Zimmer was a bench coach, came up with all the ideas.

Case in point. I wish I could remember which game it was, but it was September [or late August] this year, with the Yankees having wrapped up the division after the Boston Massacre II. Karstens is cruising along, throwing a two hitter, and he takes him out with a 4+ run lead late in the game. Why not let him finish? Rest your pen that you burned out. No, he has to pitch Proctor [maybe he has him in his fantasy league], he stinks up the joint, and Rivera has to pitch to save the game.

Even if Proctor shut them down, why waste a day's work with a reliever that you are going to use in the post season, for a rookie who can throw all day since he isn't going to make the post season roster?

This is one example of many, Jacks. Another prominent one is that when THE GM has to talk to THE MANAGER about overusing Ron Villone, then maybe THE MANAGER has no idea what the hell he is doing anymore.He does burn a bullpen. He can't seem to help himself from going to his horses to lock down a win no matter what the circumstances.

Gom
11-24-2006, 12:07 AM
He does burn a bullpen. He can't seem to help himself from going to his horses to lock down a win no matter what the circumstances.

I can understand a win in 2005, when we ended up tied for the AL East. However, he has a fear of letting starting pitchers pitch past the 7th inning. I can't tell you how many times a starter has 80-85 pitches going into the 8th with a 4 run lead, with the pitcher throwing a 5 hitter, and he yanks him. He is an absolutely horrible manager when it comes to pitchers. Every year, I mean EVERY SINGLE YEAR, he has two or three in the top 10 of appearances. He goes through relievers faster than Dwight Gooden can violate his probation.

jacksonianmarch
11-24-2006, 09:40 AM
Gom, are you seriously going to tell me that he was outmanaged in 2001? He handed the ball to Mo in game 7 with a lead in the 9th inning. He did everything he could against a team that had 2 stud ace pitchers that the yankees couldnt seem to beat. How about 2000, smart insertions of sojo and vizcaino led to game winning hits. He never needed to burn his pen out before because he had guys like Clemens, Wells, Cone, Pettitte etc who were reliable for 7, 8 sometimes even 9 innings. Now, he has a stable of old guys who can go 6 and then are done on a good day. He doesnt have the tools, and this is where he cannot adjust. He works very well when he has the tools that suit him. This team does not suit him, it is time for a change.

BSN07
11-24-2006, 10:04 AM
Who isn't a good manager that has the tools that suit him? I hate to be the one to say it, but if you took a bum of the streets of NY city, cleaned him up, and put a uniform on him and sent him out to manage the NYY, they would win atleast 90 games. Same might be said for the Sox too, so i'm not being bias. When your surrounded by great players it's easy to look good. Stick Torre in KC and if he's as good as everyone seems to think and as important to the success of his team as everyone thinks, KC should make the playoffs. Good Managers are the guys who starts with very little and can make it work. Torre was a flop everywhere else he coached, and then when he was surrounded by good ball players he was a genious. Francona was not thought of as being that great and was a surprise pick when he got the sox job, then surrounded by good players he won a WS. Mangers today make very few impact descions during a game. Yes you have to be somewhat baseball savvy to do the job, but in todays game the importance of a manager is overrated. The most important thing that a manger brings to his team and clubhouse is attitude. If the attitude is right the team will gel, but if you have a hard nose manager with happy go lucky players it won't work.

a700hitter
11-24-2006, 11:35 AM
Most people say that a manager can make a difference of 5 games on way or the other. Most years the Yankees have won the division by more than 5 games, so the manager's impact was not a factor. In those years where they won by less than 5 games, those were years where Torre burned up his pen and probably cost his team 5 games. In the post-season, he out-managed Bobby Cox in 1996. In the other four series wins, they faced teams that were extremely inferior to the Yankees. Anyone in the stands could have managed those WS victories.

Gom
11-24-2006, 01:58 PM
Gom, are you seriously going to tell me that he was outmanaged in 2001? He handed the ball to Mo in game 7 with a lead in the 9th inning. He did everything he could against a team that had 2 stud ace pitchers that the yankees couldnt seem to beat. How about 2000, smart insertions of sojo and vizcaino led to game winning hits. He never needed to burn his pen out before because he had guys like Clemens, Wells, Cone, Pettitte etc who were reliable for 7, 8 sometimes even 9 innings. Now, he has a stable of old guys who can go 6 and then are done on a good day. He doesnt have the tools, and this is where he cannot adjust. He works very well when he has the tools that suit him. This team does not suit him, it is time for a change.

If he pulls Petitte early, then the Diamonbacks don't save Johnson for Game 7. Like I said, he wasn't favored in that series, but he also didn't win. 2000....the Yankees were far and away a better team and won in 5. Not a good manager..never was, never will be.

Gom
11-24-2006, 01:59 PM
Most people say that a manager can make a difference of 5 games on way or the other. Most years the Yankees have won the division by more than 5 games, so the manager's impact was not a factor. In those years where they won by less than 5 games, those were years where Torre burned up his pen and probably cost his team 5 games. In the post-season, he out-managed Bobby Cox in 1996. In the other four series wins, they faced teams that were extremely inferior to the Yankees. Anyone in the stands could have managed those WS victories.

I don't think I have ever agreed with a post more than this one. Amen.

a700hitter
11-24-2006, 03:10 PM
He did everything he could against a team that had 2 stud ace pitchers that the yankees couldnt seem to beat. The Yankees had 3 stud strters that year-- Clemens, Moose nd Pettite. They also had a huge bullpen advantage. Arizona had that head case BK Kim and no one else. He got outmanaged that series. He let game 6 get out of hand allowing Unit to conserve some pitches for game 7.

26 to 6
11-24-2006, 09:40 PM
I don't care what anyone says. Torre is an idiot. I'm a diehard Yankee fan, and he's an idiot. I could have won with the teams he had. The only good job he did was in 1996. The rest was a joke.
You're out of your mind. They were so good because the way they responded to Joe. Joe played to the players back then, and they loved him, and listened to every word he said. He was able to take all of those guys, with less than stellar talent, and make them a championship team. There were really no superstars, for the most part. Torre took a bunch of B players and made a champion out of them. You couldn't do that, and quite honestly, I dont know who could.


If he pulls Petitte early, then the Diamonbacks don't save Johnson for Game 7. Like I said, he wasn't favored in that series, but he also didn't win. 2000....the Yankees were far and away a better team and won in 5. Not a good manager..never was, never will be.

How can you argue with Torre leaving Petitte in the game? It was a game that was pretty much in the books as an L. Why use up other pitchers when you can save them for the decisive, more important game 7? He was right to just let Andy eat the innings rather than take a chance of waring out a few pitchers and not having them available the following night. Had Torre pulled Andy, and let the pen pitch those innings, and then have to pull Roger early in Game 7 and not have those pitchers ready, he would be criticized. Either way, it's a no-win for Joe.

26 to 6
11-24-2006, 09:40 PM
Outmanaged? Hardly. The Diamondbacks just played great baseball, almost the entire series. Their pitching was outstanding and they caught a break in Gamne 7. Being 3 outs away from a championship with Mariano Rivera on the mound isn't bad managing. It just worked out for the D-Backs that Mo threw the ball away and Jeter was playing shallow on Gonzo's blooper (I can still see that fucking thing dropping. I don't think that vision will ever escape me).

26 to 6
11-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Cashman is way overpaid, because he apparently does nothing.
Where have you been the past two years, you ignorant fuck? This was a huge issue among the Yankees. Cashman has been calling all of the shots the past two years. Cash was going to leave if he wasn't guaranteed more control last offseason, so he got it. And quite frankly, he's done a magnificant job the past few years.


cashman had a great season getting lidle abreau and wilson on the cheap
he is a figurehead but as someone else said,hes getting more powerful each day

has anyone underachieved more than joe torre over the last 5 seasons??
1billion in payroll and they have the
ALDS PARTICIPANT banner to show their fans

if he fails this season look for them both to be unemployed by november 1st
in torres case maybe by memorial day
Cashman is here to stay regardless of what happens next year. The only way Torre leaves is if he wants to. If he does a poor job this season, he will not come back. He won't be forced out.

a700hitter
11-24-2006, 10:00 PM
Torre took a bunch of B players and made a champion out of them. You couldn't do that, and quite honestly, I dont know who could.
Yes a bunch of B players:rolleyes: : 5 time batting champion Boggs; batting champions O'Neil and Bernie; Tino; Cecil Fielder; Tim Raines; 7-time Cy Young winner Roger Clemens; 200+ game winners Cone, Wells and Kenny Rogers; Wetteland, Mo; Chili Davis 350 HRs and 1300+ RBI; Pettite soon to be a 200 game winner; and 4-time All Star Knoblauch,; among others. Good job Joe.

26 to 6
11-24-2006, 10:07 PM
Boggs was there under Joe for two years, one championship. Paul and Bernie weren't considered superstars. Cecil was a guy who was ressurrecting his career. Timmy was at the end of his career. Same with Chili. Kenny Rogers? Hahahah.

As for the pitchers, I can't argue with you. I wasn't really refferring to them when I said B players.

a700hitter
11-24-2006, 10:23 PM
Boggs was there under Joe for two years, one championship. Paul and Bernie weren't considered superstars. Cecil was a guy who was ressurrecting his career. Timmy was at the end of his career. Same with Chili. Kenny Rogers? Hahahah.I don't care if they were at the beginning or end of their careers. These guys were stars. The Yankees had them as role players at the end. I'd rather have them coming off the bench than Bubba Crosby. I didn't even mention Jeter, Strawberry and Gooden. Bernies finished in the top 4 in BAtting Average 4 times in 6 years. He's been a All Star 5 times as was O'Neil. Maybe O'Neil and Bernie weren't considered Superstars, but guys that make 5 All Star teams are Stars that border on Superstardom. You can Hahaha about Kenny Rogers, but he has over 200 wins in the majors, so I don't think he sucks. If Torre was as good a manager as Leyland, maybe he would have gotten more out of him in the post -season. You are just ruining your credibility by making the outrageous claim that Torre won with B players. Brenly won with B player. Ozzie Guille won with B players. Torre had the creme de la creme. Just look at the All Star rosters those years and see how many yankees were on those teams.

jacksonianmarch
11-24-2006, 10:45 PM
the yankees did it with a base of solid pitching both in a staff that ate innings and a back end of the pen that was lights out. Their offense made solid contact but also took their share of walks. They had stellar defense up the middle with Girardi and Posada manning the plate and a younger, faster Jeter at SS as well as a very speedy Bernie in center. They had a warrior who fought through everything in RF who was also a great fielder. Brosius was a great fielder. George got away from what worked. Great fielding, clutch hitting, OBP, and pitching. This yankee team is loaded with OBP, but they dont make much contact, they dont pitch well and they cannot field.