Jeter Worst SS According To Penn Study - Page 3 - Talksox

Gom · 02-20-2008, 06:41 PM

Jeter struggled early on last season. His arm is very strong. With the exception of the first few weeks last year, he is accurate. He turns the double play well. He is possibly the best shortstop in the game when it comes to balls in the air. His range is possibly the worst of any regular shortstop in the game.

What keeps people from realizing his overall sub-average play is that when he gets to the ball, you are usually out. When a player like Knoblauch or Steve Sax made errors, it was throwing errors. When you boot the ball, people remember that. However, when you just don't get to it, people don't realize it. The infield, the play is over before most fans know it. It's not like the outfield, when you can actually easily see a bad route to the ball. Most fans don't realize that Melky Cabrera actually takes very bad routes to the ball. Compared to Bernie Williams, he looks good, and ask anyone about Melky, and they tell you he has a great arm. That's because you see his throws, not his routes, unless you are lucky to get to see a lot of games in person.

Just agree that Jeter is a poor fielder, and let the argument die. There isn't a Sox fan here who wouldn't want Jeter on his team instead of Lugo. That's like saying we'd rather have Giambi than Ortiz. I mean, Giambi can still somewhat play first base.

Silly, stupid thread.

TheKilo · 02-20-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

It could be worse, we could have Julio Lugo.

Lugo is better defensively.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Lugo is better than Jeter, but I will say this:

Lugo at $9mm is not that much of a worse value than Jeter at $20mm.

das11209 · 02-20-2008, 08:43 PM

It took a study to figure out that Jeter is the worst short-stop? Don't they have Yes network? I watched almost all Yankee games - Jeter was horrible on the field. He and Giambi were quite a combo to watch.

Edit - and it's not like he was usual great with the bat. Did not even show-up in the post-season.

Gom · 02-20-2008, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by das11209

It took a study to figure out that Jeter is the worst short-stop? Don't they have Yes network? I watched almost all Yankee games - Jeter was horrible on the field. He and Giambi were quite a combo to watch.

Edit - and it's not like he was usual great with the bat. Did not even show-up in the post-season.

See, that's where I disagree with you. It's tough to see range on TV.

BudLight · 02-21-2008, 08:37 AM

JB

I guess it depends on your statistical viewpoint. If you are looking at strictly RF, he does "suck", but if you look at FPCT, he is definitely middle of the road in the AL.

BudLight · 02-21-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by das11209

It took a study to figure out that Jeter is the worst short-stop? Don't they have Yes network? I watched almost all Yankee games - Jeter was horrible on the field. He and Giambi were quite a combo to watch.

Edit - and it's not like he was usual great with the bat. Did not even show-up in the post-season.

das

I believe the study was all inclusive of Jeter's career, not just 2007 or the 2007 post season. He is a career .309 hitter in the post season, IMHO, that's pretty good.

CrespoBlows · 02-21-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Lugo is better defensively.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Lugo is better than Jeter, but I will say this:

Lugo at $9mm is not that much of a worse value than Jeter at $20mm.

Depends on what Julio Lugo we are talking about.

Paradisecity · 02-21-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

Because Jeter is an excellent player and a WINNER. When people try to discredit his abilities and achievements with this ridiculous argument, it pinches a nerve. And despite what you guys like to say and whatever defensive numbers you throw out there, he's not a bad shortstop at all. He does have 2 gold gloves. Granted, the competition wasn't at it's peak and they came after A-Rod switched positions, but he did still beat out 13 other AL shortstops those 2 years...including Nomar/Cabrera, and Renteria. The only thing that Red Sox Nation's attempts to put Jeter down does, other than irritate me, is prove just how good Jeter is. To draw the kind of negative attention he gets speaks volumes. Bad players don't get booed. Well thats not true, but not by opposing fans...

I dont think that you have your pulse on why so many of us hate Jeter, or THAT so many of us hate Jeter. I liken him very much to an aging version of Tom Brady, though its difficult because Brady has a much greater impact on his game as a quarterback, so his praise/criticism will vary accordingly.

Jeter is a very good player. There was a time where he was one of the top couple in the game. But that does not mean he is not overrated. His gold gloves are a JOKE, absolutely laughable, and a half dozen shortstops should have won over him last time he won.

We can't stand Jeter because he is ballwashed at every corner. The great Derek Jeter just wins. Thats great. I guess Mike Timlin should be revered the same way?

The ENDLESS media and fan obsession with Derek Jeter is why people turn against him. He is a very good player, and even when he was (arguably) the best player in baseball he was still completely overrated from a media and new york fan perspective. We don't loathe Derek Jeter (I mean, he is a yankee, so we have to, but as far as the ridiculous level of it), we loate the image of Derek Jeter that is presented to us by the media and by New york fans. The article linked here is the perfect example. Look at the defenses for him? Laughable. He's a team leader. He has intangibles. Great. That has nothing to do with his play.

So if you want to blame someone for the "unnecessary" hating on Jeter, blame YES, ESPN, and people such as yourself who still cling on to the notion that he is a very good defensive player just because he's Derek Jeter.

As a side note, I personally lost a lot of respect for a player who watched the best shortstop in baseball switch positions so that he could keep his position since he's the "captain" (take a page from Michael Young) and then that same captain left that man out to dry when he endlessly struggled with the media. Despite his dragged out "Team Leader" title, IMO those championship rings had a lot more to do with the right fielder's leadership, (and the centerfielder's play) than the shortstop.

rician blast · 02-21-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishsticks

His main forte is running down balls in the air and his arm. I would've love to see him in CF when the team was looking for Bernie's replacement.

Not to mention he's got the best fist-pump in the game.

Paradisecity · 02-21-2008, 11:03 AM

Yeah, its not as good as Tiger's though.

Can you imagine Tiger's electric fist pump on your team 500 times per year? I think there would be rolling blackouts.

26 to 6 · 02-21-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradisecity

So if you want to blame someone for the "unnecessary" hating on Jeter, blame YES, ESPN, and people such as yourself who still cling on to the notion that he is a very good defensive player just because he's Derek Jeter.

When did I say he was a very good defensive player? Have you read my posts in this thread?

Quote:

As a side note, I personally lost a lot of respect for a player who watched the best shortstop in baseball switch positions so that he could keep his position since he's the "captain" (take a page from Michael Young) and then that same captain left that man out to dry when he endlessly struggled with the media. Despite his dragged out "Team Leader" title, IMO those championship rings had a lot more to do with the right fielder's leadership, (and the centerfielder's play) than the shortstop.

I understand why a lot of people feel the way you do when it comes to this issue, but I can't blame Jeter. A-Rod wanted out of Texas. So much so that he willingly switched positions to be accommodated elsewhere. I think it's unfair to solely focus on the selfish, self-centered, egotistical actions of Jeter without noting how commendable A-Rod is for making the switch. As for Jeter not doing it,can you blame him? A close friend of yours publicly throws you under the bus in an interview...you really expect him to go out of his way and move from the position that he has earned through his championships, contract, and accolades to accommodate such a person? Would you...

One Red Seat · 02-21-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

... but I can't blame Jeter.

Oh, we very well know that. I think it's the centerpiece of the current discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

As for Jeter not doing it,can you blame him? A close friend of yours publicly throws you under the bus in an interview...you really expect him to go out of his way and move from the position that he has earned through his championships, contract, and accolades to accommodate such a person? Would you...

I thought he was all about the rings? I thought he did what it takes to win? Such a hero should be able to rise above such petty reasoning and do what is best for his team, shouldn't he? You are mistaking the point here. We all acknowledge that Cap'n Calm Eyes has his reasons for not switching. The problem is those reasons don't jive with his lauded team first perception.

jacksonianmarch · 02-21-2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Lugo is better defensively.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Lugo is better than Jeter, but I will say this:

Lugo at $9mm is not that much of a worse value than Jeter at $20mm.

Lugo and his .230BA and sub .650OPS is no bargain at any price. Dont try to fool yourself.

Jayhawk Bill · 02-21-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BudLight

JB

I guess it depends on your statistical viewpoint. If you are looking at strictly RF, he does "suck", but if you look at FPCT, he is definitely middle of the road in the AL.

Lugo is a very good offensive shortstop if you look at stolen bases. He was the best in the AL in 2007, in fact, over twice as good as Derek Jeter.

Evaluating fielders by fielding percentage is roughly as rational as evaluating hitters by their stolen bases. Yeah, errors matter some; yeah, sometimes stolen bases help. Either stat tells so little of the total story as to be useless in isolation.

Given that Derek Jeter does "suck" on many more advanced fielding metrics, let's not try to excuse him for missing several dozens of ground balls completely each year because he made roughly one dozen fewer errors than the errors leader at shortstop for the American League.

TheKilo · 02-21-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

Lugo and his .230BA and sub .650OPS is no bargain at any price. Dont try to fool yourself.

Lugo, in the second half of last season, put up these numbers:

.280/.322/.406/.728

Those numbers are more than serviceable, and more in line with his career statistics:

.271/.333/.395/.728

Taking defensive statistics into account, Lugo at $9mm is certainly a comparable value to Jeter at $20mm. Don't try to fool yourself.

You really think Jeter is worth $20mm?