Jeter Worst SS According To Penn Study

[yankees228]

As for my opinion on Jeter's defensive ability, I would say that he is definitely bottom ten, and most likely bottom five although I would want to take more of a look at the numbers before I say anything specific. I come to this conclusion as a Yankee fan because I put absolutely no stock in the intangibles argument.

[Gom]

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Lugo, in the second half of last season, put up these numbers:

.280/.322/.406/.728

Those numbers are more than serviceable, and more in line with his career statistics:

.271/.333/.395/.728

Taking defensive statistics into account, Lugo at $9mm is certainly a comparable value to Jeter at $20mm. Don't try to fool yourself.

You really think Jeter is worth $20mm?

Yes. Why? Cause it aint my money. I never cared about salary, and unless their is a cap, I never will. I hate Cashman whining about the Yankees payroll. Go manage the Pirates.

Jeter is worth what anyone is willing to pay him. Baseball players, comparitively speaking, don't make what they deserve in the beginning, and then are overpaid later on in their careers. Say what you want about Wang and Cano, but those two guys last year carried the Yankees at points and made less than Arod's personal strippers.

My team isn't under a salary cap. Neither is yours. The only time I care about salary is if it gets in the way of getting other guys. That's it.

To weigh in on this argument, Jeter was, and is, a better value than Lugo. He's a fan favorite, i.e., he puts butts in the seats, he brings to the team in marketing probably twice his salary in a year, and he outperforms Lugo in pretty much every facet of the game. No comparison.

[Paradisecity]

Kilo- you are forgetting the dollar value of intangibles. Last I checked,the going rate on intangibles was about 1.5 Million per year.



To be serious though, If Jeter isn't worth the 20M to that team he's damn close. Merchandising alone helps pay the bill.

[rician blast]

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

A-Rod wanted out of Texas. So much so that he willingly switched positions to be accommodated elsewhere. I think it's unfair to solely focus on the selfish, self-centered, egotistical actions of Jeter without noting how commendable A-Rod is for making the switch.

My thoughts:

(1) I never thought any less of Jeter for not offering to make the move to a new position...in fact I think he did the right thing. It's his position, they want him to move, they should move him, but he had no responsibility to offer up such a position change.

(2) As for ARod's supposedly commendable actions I viewed his decision to move to third as pathetic and desperate.

When we were all growing up and playing ball what was the most prestigious position on the field when we weren't pitching? Shortstop. Hands down.

So if you are supposedly one of the top SS in the game why would you ever agree to play 3B unless you were desperate to get out of a situation and were handicapped by your excessive contract?

[Gom]

Originally Posted by rician blast

My thoughts:

(1) I never thought any less of Jeter for not offering to make the move to a new position...in fact I think he did the right thing. It's his position, they want him to move, they should move him, but he had no responsibility to offer up such a position change.

(2) As for ARod's supposedly commendable actions I viewed his decision to move to third as pathetic and desperate.

When we were all growing up and playing ball what was the most prestigious position on the field when we weren't pitching? Shortstop. Hands down.

So if you are supposedly one of the top SS in the game why would you ever agree to play 3B unless you were desperate to get out of a situation and were handicapped by your excessive contract?

What's your point? Growing up, I'd rather be the RF on a winning team than the SS on a losing one. How is that any different? He wanted to go to the Sox first, but after that fell through, he went to the best team in the game at the time, and switched positions. I think you're making a point, but I'm not sure what it is.

[Gom]

Originally Posted by Paradisecity

To be serious though, If Jeter isn't worth the 20M to that team he's damn close. Merchandising alone helps pay the bill.

I'm sure if you were to calculate on and off the field, Jeter would be a wash or a slight loss. Lugo is almost a total loss. Once again..no comparison. You guys make money on Papelbon. You lose money on Lugo and Drew. Whatever. Who gives a shit? It's not our money anyways. Don't give me this crap about player salaries. Why do you care about what a bunch of millionaire players get from billionaire owners? Seriously? If you can't compete, you shouldn't be in the league.

[Paradisecity]

Originally Posted by Gom

I'm sure if you were to calculate on and off the field, Jeter would be a wash or a slight loss. Lugo is almost a total loss. Once again..no comparison. You guys make money on Papelbon. You lose money on Lugo and Drew. Whatever. Who gives a shit? It's not our money anyways. Don't give me this crap about player salaries. Why do you care about what a bunch of millionaire players get from billionaire owners? Seriously? If you can't compete, you shouldn't be in the league.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't giving anyone any crap about player salaries. Thanks though.

[jacksonianmarch]

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Lugo, in the second half of last season, put up these numbers:

.280/.322/.406/.728

Those numbers are more than serviceable, and more in line with his career statistics:

.271/.333/.395/.728

Taking defensive statistics into account, Lugo at $9mm is certainly a comparable value to Jeter at $20mm. Don't try to fool yourself.

You really think Jeter is worth $20mm?

He batted .197 before the AS break. He only hit .280 based upon one strong month (July). He totalled .237 for the yr. Cmon, you are better than that.

That being said, it isnt like we are talking about AGon vs Jeter here. This is a marginal fielder and a poor hitter vs a poor fielder and a solid hitter who is also captain and merchandising magnet. It isnt even close in terms of who is the bargain. Hell, Lowrie would be better than Lugo right now and he isnt even projected to be a SS, and he'd make what, 300K? Thats a bargain. Lugo at 8mil? You got ripped.

[Gom]

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

He batted .197 before the AS break. He only hit .280 based upon one strong month (July). He totalled .237 for the yr. Cmon, you are better than that.

That being said, it isnt like we are talking about AGon vs Jeter here. This is a marginal fielder and a poor hitter vs a poor fielder and a solid hitter who is also captain and merchandising magnet. It isnt even close in terms of who is the bargain. Hell, Lowrie would be better than Lugo right now and he isnt even projected to be a SS, and he'd make what, 300K? Thats a bargain. Lugo at 8mil? You got ripped.

Now...this is OWNED. Not like Jayhawk Bill. Way to go JM.

[Coco's Disciples]

I agree that Lugo at 9 mil is a ripoff. Jeter at 20 mil isn't exactly a bargain either. The question is, is Jeter more than twice as good as Lugo? I would say yes, he is.

Jeter in 07: .322 BA, .388 OBP, .452 SLG, 53.3 VORP
Lugo in 07: .237 BA, .294 OBP, .349 SLG, -1.3 VORP

Not even close. Lugo has the edge in speed and fielding, but in hitting, they're not even comparable.

[ARod2212]

I can live with Jeter's fielding. If he gets to the ball, he makes the play. His range isn't good, but he's not fucking up routine grounders. He's also very good with pop-ups and relays, two important aspects for a shortstop.

There is no way he deserved the Gold Glove awards. I just think the talk of how bad he is defensively is exaggerated. I think the fact that he's a smart ballplayer is undervalued when people are talking about his defense. Knowing where to throw, where to position yourself, when to make calls are all very important aspects of playing the position, and he is good at that.

(Of course, A-Rod was better. I pushed for Jeter in centerfield when we got Rodriguez.)

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

He batted .197 before the AS break. He only hit .280 based upon one strong month (July). He totalled .237 for the yr. Cmon, you are better than that.

He only hit .237 based off on one bad month. What's your point? Are you telling me that small sample sizes shouldn't come into play?

I could give a shit less if he did it "based off one good month" (which isn't true, he hit over .280 in August). The fact is he did what he did in the second half. Are players not allowed adjustment periods?[/quote]

That being said, it isnt like we are talking about AGon vs Jeter here. This is a marginal fielder and a poor hitter vs a poor fielder and a solid hitter who is also captain and merchandising magnet. It isnt even close in terms of who is the bargain. Hell, Lowrie would be better than Lugo right now and he isnt even projected to be a SS, and he'd make what, 300K? Thats a bargain. Lugo at 8mil? You got ripped.

Who said anything about merchandising? I'd like to know where this argument came from. I am talking about on the field production.

Fact - Jeter is a much better offensive shortstop
Fact - Lugo is a better fielder and better baserunner than Jeter

The case could then be made that the value of Jeter at $20mm is not so much higer than Lugo at $9mm. Look, I never said Lugo was the better value, just that the difference isn't as vast as many would like to believe.

[One Red Seat]

You are only comparing their offensive contribution with VORP. Win Shares has it 24 to 12. Don't take this to mean I'm arguing in favor of Lugo's value. I think if one were to plot $/WS you'd find the graph to take on an exponential shape toward the high end, meaning the value is not strictly linear. Those in the top 5-10% are worth more than their value on the line of best fit. Just my opinion.

[rician blast]

Originally Posted by Gom

What's your point? Growing up, I'd rather be the RF on a winning team than the SS on a losing one. How is that any different? He wanted to go to the Sox first, but after that fell through, he went to the best team in the game at the time, and switched positions. I think you're making a point, but I'm not sure what it is.

OK, I'll try again...ARod's acceptance to play 3rd base, IMO, was more a move of desperation...because of his wanting out of Texas and the fact that his huge salary precluded so many other teams from even considering him...than it was a "commendable" action. What choice did he have?

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by rician blast

My thoughts:

(1) I never thought any less of Jeter for not offering to make the move to a new position...in fact I think he did the right thing. It's his position, they want him to move, they should move him, but he had no responsibility to offer up such a position change.

(2) As for ARod's supposedly commendable actions I viewed his decision to move to third as pathetic and desperate.

When we were all growing up and playing ball what was the most prestigious position on the field when we weren't pitching? Shortstop. Hands down.

So if you are supposedly one of the top SS in the game why would you ever agree to play 3B unless you were desperate to get out of a situation and were handicapped by your excessive contract?

You're absolutely right. I made the point about A-Rod commendable to help in my Jeter arguement ..but yeah after the Boston deal fell through it was simply desperation for A-Rod.

Also with Jeter, we really can't call him selfish until it's revealed that he was asked to move fofr A-Rod and declined. Nobody mentioned anything to Jeter about it. It was Alex who wanted out of Texas and it was Alex who moved. Cash, Torre, nobody (I guess really just Cash, the whole trade went down so quickly...) even considered asking Jeter to move. If the Yankees were in pursuit of A-Rod and the only way he could be had is if he were to play shortstop, and Jeter was approached with it who knows what he would have done. I'm sure either way he wouldn't have wanted to move but nobody can say for sure whether or not he would have declined. And honestly, if it were that serious he really wouldn't have had an option. Nowhere in contracts does it guarantee a player a certain amount of playing time at a particular position. But it's just unfair to call Jeter selfish for not moving when he was probably never even approached and asked to move.

And I know it must seem terribly that I'm a Yankee fan-boy on Jeter's dick, and I know that's how a lot of you see it...but c'mon..you guys are Sox fans ripping on Jeter, I have a right, almost a responsibility to to argue in his defense.