Yankee offense: worst start in 10 yrs

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

David Ortiz included?

A-Rod has always done it, and is continuing to do it. Ortiz was hitting bitch-balls in Minnesota, when he did hit, before going to Boston and hitting bombs.

What the fuck does this mean?

What if ARod was on the juice from the get-go?

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

David Ortiz included?

A-Rod has always done it, and is continuing to do it. Ortiz was hitting bitch-balls in Minnesota, when he did hit, before going to Boston and hitting bombs.

What the fuck does this mean? What if ARod was juicing from the get-go?

[BudLight]

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

Thanks, Paul. Now show me that part where Canseco says Clemens didn't use PED's. He didn't see it, and Clemens didn't tell him, but that does not say Clemens "didn't" do it.

It's in the same place as the part where Canseco undeniably states that A-Rod uses steroids. The argument here was that there was the belief that if Canseco states it in one of his "books", it must be true. You're original quote of the statement regarding Clemens from Juiced was missing some important information. You are correct he never said Clemens did not use PED's, but after Clemens' testimony on Capitol Hill, it appears that Canseco's implied belief that Clemens didn't use PED's is completely off base. I am only saying his accusations regarding A-Rod could also be completely off base. By the way, has Canseco found any funding sources for his movie (read Ordonez)

[One Red Seat]

I read it differently. I read implied belief that Clemens used, I mean it's right there with B12 mockingly in quotes, but it is restrained by what he actually "knew". To me, the evolution of the Clemens saga only reinforces Canseco's credibility.

I've read there is a similar lack of hard evidence regarding ARod, so with his new book we won't know the truth. But, again, I'm not interested in pointing fingers. I just think it's unfair to classify anyone as stupid for thinking it when Jose is batting 1.000 on the subject.

[BudLight]

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

I read it differently. I read implied belief that Clemens used, I mean it's right there with B12 mockingly in quotes, but it is restrained by what he actually "knew". To me, the evolution of the Clemens saga only reinforces Canseco's credibility.

I've read there is a similar lack of hard evidence regarding ARod, so with his new book we won't know the truth. But, again, I'm not interested in pointing fingers. I just think it's unfair to classify anyone as stupid for thinking it when Jose is batting 1.000 on the subject.

I imply a different meaning, by Canseco stating ...."I’ve heard him use the phrase “B12 shot” with respect to others." In other words, Roger wasn't talking about his own use of "B12", but the use of others. I believe Clemens used PED's but I believe Canseco believed he did not. I'd say Canseco is batting .750, but I also don't put much credence behind a guy who was a pro athlete who now couldn't even get a job as a towel boy in an MLB locker room and is relegated to playing slow pitch softball a few times a week in order to keep his ego satisfied.

[rician blast]

Does anyone really think we even need Canseco's book before we can identify suspected PED use? Doesn't anyone see how these guys physiques change over short periods of time, how some go from 15-20 HRs up to 30-40HRs in the blionk of an eye, then fall apart physically?

I've said this many times before...in the early 80's I worked in a gym. 'Roids were rampant and college and HS athletes were using all sorts of shit and it was easy to detect just by looking at them.

I recall a HS quarterback who bought $900 of juice one day, went from about 170 lbs to 200 ripped in 6 months, won all-league honors...also punched his girl in the face, got arrested several times but was somehow the toast of the town. Everyone in the gym knew he was using, by watching him change. This was a HS kid, with limited $$$ and not nearly as much to gain as a pro athlete.

Don't underestimate the power of a fan's own eyes, their common sense and their ability to read ballooning stat lines. Combine what you see with the knowledge of how much is at stake for these guys in terms of money and ego and it makes it hard NOT to suspect someone.

[BudLight]

Using some of the mentality that has been displayed in this discussion we should also acknowledge that Mike Wallace of 60 minutes has juiced. It must be true because he had an hour long, off-camera discussion with Canseco after their 60 minutes interview just before Juiced was released. Wallace's apparent interest and intrigue with steroids makes him guilty. Case closed!!

I never read and will never read Juiced. I will not put the money in Canseco's pocket. For someone who has read the book though, tell me, were any of the following named in Juice:

Jason Grimsley
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Jim Parque
Benito Santiago
Mike Stanton

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by BudLight

Using some of the mentality that has been displayed in this discussion we should also acknowledge that Mike Wallace of 60 minutes has juiced. It must be true because he had an hour long, off-camera discussion with Canseco after their 60 minutes interview just before Juiced was released. Wallace's apparent interest and intrigue with steroids makes him guilty. Case closed!!

I never read and will never read Juiced. I will not put the money in Canseco's pocket. For someone who has read the book though, tell me, were any of the following named in Juice:

Jason Grimsley
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Jim Parque
Benito Santiago
Mike Stanton

I dont recall any of those names being mentioned. I'll go grab my copy and scan the index (if there is one) and let u know though..

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by rican blast

Does anyone really think we even need Canseco's book before we can identify suspected PED use? Doesn't anyone see how these guys physiques change over short periods of time, how some go from 15-20 HRs up to 30-40HRs in the blionk of an eye, then fall apart physically?

Does Ortiz fit that description? I think he does...

I recall a HS quarterback who bought $900 of juice one day, went from about 170 lbs to 200 ripped in 6 months, won all-league honors...also punched his girl in the face, got arrested several times but was somehow the toast of the town. Everyone in the gym knew he was using, by watching him change. This was a HS kid, with limited $$$ and not nearly as much to gain as a pro athlete.

I'm not trying to debate anything said in your post, which I thought was very enlightening, but how can you say a High School kid has less to gain than a pro athlete. I would think it the other way around. The pro's already have a contract and are making money on a big stage. The HS kid is trying to get noticed by scouts and make a future for himself. I think that he would have more to gain, if not just as much.

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by TheKilo

What the fuck does this mean?

What if ARod was on the juice from the get-go?

Perhaps. But from the get go? Drafted right out of High School? He wasn't too big in his early years. Very fit, but not huge. He must have been on some good, unnoticeable shit. Throughout the years and as his size has progressed, it looks more like a natural growth to me than a chemically enhanced growth. His physical conditioning looks to be almost second to none. You can sort of tell when looking at PED user's physiques.

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by rician blast

While I suppose I could just refer you to past posts where I've listed suspected users, I'll play along...I'm going to mix it up a bit, hitting different eras and levels of talent:

Kapler, Youk, Ortiz, Troy O'Leary, Tek, Foulke, John Valentin, Nixon, ARod, Giambi, Posada, Pettitte (but only twice..I mean 4 times...I mean...well you get the picture), Clemens, Sheffield, Ruben Sierra, Rivera, Karim Garcia (right, who?), Knoblauch, Ricky Henderson, Miguel Tejada, Jim Thome, Luis Gonzalez, Juan Gonzalez, Morgan Ensberg, Jeff Bagwell, Kevin Brown, Damon, Dante Bichette, Biggio,Palmeiro, Jeter, Burnitz, Garciaparra, Jim Edmunds, Scott Rolen, Mike Lansing, Albert Belle, Greg Vaughn, Moises, Vinny Castilla, Jay Buhner, Gary Gaeitti, Ron Gant, Pedro, I'm tired and I think I'll stop now.

Fair enough..

wait.....Jeter!? Are you drunk? You have to be kidding me.

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

Not only was it deserved, but it was correct. If you weren't such a defensive little bitch when it came to everything Yankee, we wouldn't be where we are now in this discussion.

I wouldn't need to get so defensive if you were a little fair and objective from time to time when it comes to the Yankees. You're terribly biased against them, and it shines through in every post you make about them.

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

Perhaps. But from the get go? Drafted right out of High School? He wasn't too big in his early years. Very fit, but not huge. He must have been on some good, unnoticeable shit. Throughout the years and as his size has progressed, it looks more like a natural growth to me than a chemically enhanced growth. His physical conditioning looks to be almost second to none. You can sort of tell when looking at PED user's physiques.

You can tell if someone uses HGH? They get massive...like Chuck Knoblauch or Brian Roberts?

[jacksonianmarch]

Hey, the bats are alive with the warm weather.

[26 to 6]

No, they don't get massive, but their body looks bulky and unproportioned. At the time you don't realize, but looking back after hearing of somebody's use, you can sort of see it. And I know whats coming from you next, but I think it definitely goes beyond ones own mind telling them that. I'm not gonna waste my time doing it, but go andlook at pictures of some of the players who have been named throughout different times in their career.

[TheKilo]

Brian Roberts is bulky and disproportioned?