Kennedy and Hughes out....Cashman next.

[ARod2212]

Originally Posted by Gom

Cashman has no idea about pitching. Zero. Worse than zero.

Yankees had a chance at Beckett and Pedro. He took Pavano.

He could have had Lilly instead of Igawa. Lilly was dying to come to New York.

Could have had Dice-K instead of Igawa.

Signed Farnsworth.

Could have traded for Santana.

Signed Contreras.

Acquired Loiaza.

Exactly who has he picked up as a lefty in the pen in the last ten years?

Kevin Brown.

Jeff Weaver.

Randy Johnson.

Got Vazquez. Traded away Vazquez. Then he got better.

Picked Ohlendorf over Micah Owings. He had his PICK. Fucked that one up too.

You want to seriously know how I knew that the Santana deal would haunt the Yankees?

Because Cashman didn't get him. He can't figure it out. He doesn't have an eye for the game, because he didn't even play wiffleball growing up.

STOP READING PRESS CLIPPINGS. WATCH THE DAMN GAME.

I hope to death I'm wrong. I just don't see what to like. Hughes has a power pitcher's control..but not a power pitcher's arm. He has a slow, sweeping curve, but has difficulty locating it.

Kennedy throws an 88-89 MPH fastball. Control is not there. Doesn't have a strong secondary pitch. Don't see how this kid will succeed.

There is a saying from baseball scouts about Yankee prospects. The closer they get to the major league level, the less the Yankees like them. If you want the wool pulled over your eyes, your choice. Not me.

Beckett would come in a trade. Pedro was finished in the American league, and has been continually hurt. Pavano was a free agent. You're comparing apples and light bulbs.

Lilly sucks. Igawa sucks. I don't see the difference.

He couldn't have had Matsuzaka. The Red Sox ridiculously overbid for his services. It wasn't a matter of Cashman being "afraid to pull the trigger." Shut up.

Signed Farnsworth. Listen, I'm the first guy to get on Farnsworth's case, but who else was he supposed to sign? They needed an arm for the bullpen. It's not like he passed up on Joe Nathan to sign Farnsworth. He got one of the best guys available in a weak market. If you haven't noticed, he's tried to stockpile arms to turn into relievers from within the last few years. But no, he has no eye for pitching.

Could have given up the farm and millions of dollars for Santana. I'm not faulting him for that.

What lefty has anyone picked up over the last 10 years? Seriously, how is he supposed to get these people? Is he supposed to wave a magic wand and force Mike Gonzalez into the Yankee bullpen? If teams aren't offering these players, they're not going to get them. If nobody is a good free agent lefty, what is Cashman supposed to do?

Brown was an upgrade over Weaver, who could not handle New York. Brown was decent, got old and that was it. Jeff Weaver would have been terrible with this team, so I don't see how you can fault him for being dealt.

Cashman acquired Weaver in 2002. Weaver's line with Detroit at the time of the trade- 121 innings, 112 hits, 4 HRs, 3.18 ERA, 33 BB, 75 Ks. Yeah, why would you make a move for a guy like that. No eye for talent, I'm telling you. Weaver's problem is that he's a headcase, something that doesn't come out when you're pitching on a terrible Tigers team, but gets magnified in New York. Shame on Cashman for not being able to see that.

Randy Johnson was a Steinbrenner move, and everyone knows that. Even if it wasn't his numbers the year before we acquired him are ridiculous. 245 innings, 290 Ks, 177 hits, 2.60 ERA, 0.90 WHIP. Oh yeah, and he was Randy fucking Johnson. Hindsight sure is good, isn't it? (Also, good to forget that Johnson went 17-8 in 2005 with a 3.79 ERA and 211 Ks in 225 innings. He was just God awful.)

This is getting repetitive, but I want to make this painfully obvious. Javier Vazquez in 2003, before the Yankees acquired him: 230 innings, 198 hits, 241 Ks, 57 BBs, 3.24 ERA, and a 1.10 WHIP. He was also an All Star in 2004 because he pitched so well for us in the first half of the season. He then had injury problems the rest of the way, and was moved for the aforementioned Randy Johnson.

Ohlendorf has pitched a total of 27.1 major league innings. And Owings has been decidedly average in the National League, with a 4.33 ERA. Cashman didn't pass on Lincecum, he passed on Owings. The only reason anybody knows his name is because he's a good hitter.

[jacksonianmarch]

exactly. Unfortunately Gom doesnt know much about baseball. He doesnt see that the league has changed. You no longer can just throw money at a problem. Teams are hanging onto pitching, the free agent market has been shit and teams are now building through the draft and international markets. I am not one to say that Cash hasnt made mistakes, he has made some doozies, but the biggest indicator of his success will be the farm system. And the fact that we started the yr with 2 very young home grown pitchers in our rotation and one very young, home grown reliable setup man shows what he is capable of. Unfortunately, not all of them work out. And to write off guys like Hughes and Kennedy at this point is just plain assinine. He can think what he wants, but this organization is far and away better than it was in 2005, when Cash wrested control away from Big Stein. And it will only get better. Every now and then, you need to take a step back to take a step forward, and I am okay with that. But I have a feeling that by the end of the season, we'll still be in the playoffs and will still have a shot at the title.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Yankees annual AL Team ERA rank under Brian Cashman:

Year	Rank
1998	1
1999	2
2000	6
2001	3
2002	4
2003	3
2004	6
2005	9
2006	6
2007	8

I researched this initially to defend Cashman, but looking at the numbers it appears that he's struggled after losing his initial talent base of pitchers, especially considering the Yankees' league-leading payrolls.

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

exactly. Unfortunately Gom doesnt know much about baseball. He doesnt see that the league has changed. You no longer can just throw money at a problem. Teams are hanging onto pitching, the free agent market has been shit and teams are now building through the draft and international markets. I am not one to say that Cash hasnt made mistakes, he has made some doozies, but the biggest indicator of his success will be the farm system. And the fact that we started the yr with 2 very young home grown pitchers in our rotation and one very young, home grown reliable setup man shows what he is capable of. Unfortunately, not all of them work out. And to write off guys like Hughes and Kennedy at this point is just plain assinine. He can think what he wants, but this organization is far and away better than it was in 2005, when Cash wrested control away from Big Stein. And it will only get better. Every now and then, you need to take a step back to take a step forward, and I am okay with that. But I have a feeling that by the end of the season, we'll still be in the playoffs and will still have a shot at the title.

Even with two months of Rasner and Igawa?

Good luck...

[ARod2212]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk Bill

Yankees annual AL Team ERA rank under Brian Cashman:

I researched this initially to defend Cashman, but looking at the numbers it appears that he's struggled after losing his initial talent base of pitchers, especially considering the Yankees' league-leading payrolls.

It's really not as easy to get pitchers as it used to be. Revenue sharing has allowed small market teams to lock up most of their starters, or ask a king's ransom for them. To get Josh Beckett the Sox had to give up Hanley Ramirez, who could be the best player in baseball. The game is different now, you have to develop your own pitching to have a chance to win, and that's what they've realized and started to do.

[Mr Crunchy]

hey
he got brian stanton for chrissakes
he brought along aaron small and shawn boogaloo chacon.
he went out and got a 20 game 18 game and 15 game winner in the fall of 04 after the worst collapse since the roman empire went balls up against the vandals back in the late 5th century.
i admire brian cashman's courage to face down fredo steinbrenner and the ny media.

[Coco's Disciples]

My sarcasm radar is down and undergoing maintenance, and I'm bored, so I'm taking this post as if it were serious. Because it might be...

Originally Posted by Mr Crunchy

hey
he got brian stanton for chrissakes

Okay...who the fuck is Brian Stanton? You mean Mike Stanton?

he brought along aaron small and shawn boogaloo chacon.

Can you really credit this to Cashman? This is pure luck in my book. Not taking anything away from the two pitchers, although they have sucked their entire careers except 2005, but this isn't Cashman.

he went out and got a 20 game 18 game and 15 game winner in the fall of 04 after the worst collapse since the roman empire went balls up against the vandals back in the late 5th century.

Wait. Slow down. Backtrack. Rewind. I assume you're talking about Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright. Here. Are you actually fucking praising Cashman for getting these guys? Johnson was the only guy who had any type of success, and in his first year he saw his ERA drop 1.19 points and his WHIP drop 0.22 points. That was his only good year in NY. I don't think I need to elaborate on Pavano and Wright.

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by ARod2212

IT'S MAY FUCKING 7TH.

Basically. Every year as of late when the Yankees struggle in April ignorant fucking people come to me say how much the Yankee suck, or how this isn't their year, or whatever the case may be. My response to them is always an irritated "It's April (In this case May 7th)! Lot of baseball left to be played." It's ridiculous. Come August as we're headed down the stretch-run mot people don't even remember what played out the first Month and a half of the season. Just relax everyone...the season is young.

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by Coco's Disciples

Can you really credit this to Cashman? This is pure luck in my book. Not taking anything away from the two pitchers, although they have sucked their entire careers except 2005, but this isn't Cashman.

Come one man, give him his fair due. Aaron Small was brought into camp as a non-roster invite, got off to a rough start in the minors, strongly considered retirement, turned it around with Columbus, cam up and was spectacular. It's not fair to say Ca$h hadnothing to do with that, he's the one who brought him into camp, monitored his progress in AAA, and made the decision to bring him up. How about some credit for a good move. Same with Chacon, there was a lot of speculation as to how he would pitch, and he came over from Colorado and pitched damn-well. That was a good move Cashman made. If he's gonna get ripped for bringing in Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, and Jeff Weaver, give him some props for these low-cost successes he's pulled off.

[YAZMAN]

Maybe this deserves its' own thread, and maybe there's some information I don't have, but are there new/modified "Joba Rules" in effect this year? Is he working with The Steamer, or being instructed to emulate him? Was he told to stick around with the rookie pitchers, and took it totally out of context?

[jacksonianmarch]

You wanna see why our team's pitching has been in the shitter?
Take a look at the drafts and signings
1985- Williams
1989- Posada
1990- Pettitte, Rivera
1991- Mendoza
1992- Jeter

Just take a look at that level of scouting. All of them hit their stride around the same time and in that class 2 sure fire HOFers and 2 ?HOFers were drafted/signed

Take a look at the drafts from the subsequent yrs
1993- best player was Chad Moeller who ended up back here
1994- Brain Buchanon was the best player and he was a AAAA guy
1995- Mike Lowell was the best player and he was dealt for Ed Yarnall
1996- Not a bad draft, but we traded it all away. Nick Johnson was dealt for Vazquez who was dealt for Johnson who was dealt for Ohlendorf, Vizcaino, and Gonzalez, Viz left and now we are just left with Ohlie, Gonzalez and a supplemental 1st rounder. Eric Milton who we dealt for Knoblauch and was a good trade at the time. And Marcus Thames who is still playing.
1997- Aaron Heilman was the best pick here and we didnt sign him
1998- Mark Prior in the first, but he didnt sign. Drew Henson and Randy Keisler were duds
1999- Andy Phillips was the best player drafted
2000-Wang in INTL signing. The draft was awful
2001- Cano, Cabrera, Duncan from both the INTL and draft. Chase Wright as well. Ford-Griffin and Sardinha were massive busts
2002- Halsey was the best player from this draft
2003- Clippard and Karstens have made the majors, and Clippard netted Alabaladejo who shows promise as a middle man. Eric Duncan, the 1st round pick, is finally hitting in his 3rd attempt at AAA but looks more like a role player

For a solid 11 yrs, we have had drafts that have either sucked or the good players we drafted were sold or given up on too early. THAT is why the pitching has gone to shit. In the meantime, we have seen teams like Boston develop a dependable closer and 2/5 of their rotation from within as well as their 2b, 1b, C, CF. Add in the Japanese moves and they made a killing off of players that they didnt have to deal away talent for. Look at a team like Oakland who put together a big 3 from within (Mulder, Hudson, Zito), blew it up then put together an even better tandem in Harden, Haren, Blanton before blowing that up too. Why were they able to build 6 all star caliber pitchers from within when we couldnt draft or sign or trade for one? The only SP all star we have had in awhile was Javy Vazquez and we all know how that yr turned out.

The days of doing things the old yankee way are out.
We got Wells as a FA reclamation project in 97.
Cone was had from the Jays to the Yankees in 95 for 3 subpar prospects to get out from under his contract even though he was still in his prime at 32.
El Duque was signed mostly because the yankees were the best known team in Cuba and not many teams thought his success in cuba would translate
Clemens was had for Wells and 2 other players past their prime or busts.
Pettitte was the only home grown talent.

You just cannot make those deals anymore. Back in the day, you could get an ace for shit so long as you paid money for it. Teams dont do that nowadays and the only way to build a team is from within and then adding a few key pieces from outside. Cashman wont be judged by how the yankees do in 2008. Even if he is fired, he'll be judged by how the 04-now drafts and INTL signings work out. We have now restocked the farm and it will eventually work. If it takes a bit then so be it.