Kennedy and Hughes out....Cashman next.

[Gom]

Cashman pinned his hopes and his job on two young pitchers that nearly everyone here was ripping me for saying they should be traded [at least one of them] for Santana.

Now that the two pitchers are in the minors and won't be seen anytime soon, it's time to take to task the man who has killed the Yankees. Cashman. Cashman took over from Watson and rode the coat tails of a phenomenal team to "win" 3 World Series in which he had little to do with. Since 2000, he hasn't done anything of significance.

Even this off-season, Gene Michael, who is in my opinion the absolute best person in the Yankee front office that I've seen in my tenure as a Yankee fan, said you have to make the deal for Santana. No question about it.

Here's hoping the Steinbrenners realize that the best person they have in running the team [Gene Michael] is playing fiddle to an idiot who wouldn't understand a baseball if you shoved it up his ass [Brian Cashman].

Memo to Jacko: The Yankees overhype their prospects. Consider it a lesson learned. Hope you practice medicine better than you evaluate pitchers.

[yeszir]

Yankee fan fight! Yankee fan fight!

[26 Reasons to Hate Us]

Try to have some foresight Gom. It's one month into first season after the Santana no-trade. Of course it's going to look like trading for Santana was the best move as he continues to dominate and the rookies go through the growing pains. How is it going to look in the next 2-6 years when some or all of the rookies are hitting their stride, and the Mets are stuck paying Santana 20+M a year, praying his arm doesn't fall off?

[Jayhawk Bill]

Originally Posted by Gom

Cashman pinned his hopes and his job on two young pitchers that nearly everyone here was ripping me for saying they should be traded [at least one of them] for Santana.

I was really eager for the Yankees to execute the Santana trade. I'm sorry that they didn't.

Of course, I want the Yankees to lose.

IIRC, the rumored demand from Minnesota was Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. My recollection is that I maintained that Ian Kennedy sucked (career potential fourth starter at best), but that Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera were more valuable than Johan Santana.

Fast forward to May 5th.

Ian Kennedy sucks. Score one.

Phil Hughes was pitching with a cracked rib. The rumor I've heard is that he cracked the rib while he wasn't pitching. That actually makes sense, especially given that it's not a first rib. Hughes had a great first start, allowing two runs in six innings vs. Toronto for the win. After that he's had an absurdly bad 11.25 ERA, almost double what you'd expect from an average replacement-level pitcher. Hughes is better than replacement-level: we just don't know how much better yet. If he allowing an 11.25 ERA and a cracked rib shows up, though, one can believe that there's a correlation. No score yet on Hughes.

Melky Cabrera is leading the New York Yankees--the team of All Star sluggers--in home runs, and batting over .290, while playing a good defensive center field. It appears that he's found his power, as I'd suggested that he would. Score one more...that's two.

Johan Santana...well, he's 3-2 with a 2.91 ERA and an xFIP to match (3.07). He's the 13th-best pitcher in MLB by VORP this morning. That looks really good, but consider these factors:

1) Offense is down in 2008. That 2.91 ERA is an ERA+ of just 138, barely better than his 2006 ERA+ of 130 and much worse than his ERA+ from every year between 2002 and 2006.

2) That doesn't consider his AL-to-NL move. Given the league differences, an ERA+ of 138 in the NL might translate to something in the range of a 125 ERA+ in the AL. That's still very good for a starting pitcher, but it's less good than Santana ever was with the Twins.

3) Santana couldn't hit 92 mph his last time out (I checked Pitch f/x). Remember Buster Olney on ESPN Insider writing that Santana's velocity was off in his last seven starts of 2007? He hasn't regained his 94-96mph fastball. That suggests injury.

4) Santana is signed through the 2013 season at a total of $137.5 million, plus either a $5.5 million buyout or a $25 million contract year in 2014. That's A LOT of money, even for the Yankees.

We'll see...too early to score.

***

I claim a 2-0 score in my favor so far in assessing the potential trade. Even with Hughes on the DL and Kennedy in AAA, I'm sorry that the Yankees didn't make the deal.

[26 to 6]

Come one Gom, Cash has made some real good deals throughout his tenure. Granted, he's also made some bad ones as well, but thats the way things go when you have practically no budget and can afford to play with the houses money. As for the Santana deal, I was against it all winter simply because I didnt want to lose Phil Hughes and Melky. I dont give a shit about Kennedy, have never liked him, and predict he won't have the brightest of careers. When it came out later that Santana could have been had with Kennedy in the deal and not Hughes, I guess I would have thought it was a good deal, but was still indifferent because of Melky. Ultimately, when the deal was not made I wasn't complaining. The price, both financially and in what we would have had to trade was just too much. It's nice to second guess, but I think the Yankees did what they thought was best and I can't blame them for that. As for Phil Hughes, we've seen him and how dominant he can be throughout his entire pro career. In his Major League appearances last year he was spectacular, especially in Game 3. I was at hi first start this year where he was good, and of course have witnessed his colossal downfall since. You and I have talked about this many times before, and I dont see how you can be so down on Hughes after a bad month in which we find out he was pitching with eye problems and a cracked rib. Totally disregarding his past successes. A little rash, IMO. I have nothing to say in defense of Kennedy, so you can rip him all u want, especially after hearing what he had to say upon his demotion, but lets give Phil some time. Lets give him a chance to see how he's doing a month or so after he gets back.Let's be fair. Cano struggled initially when he came up in 2005, look what happened. Melky was about to be crucified after his mis-play in '05 and the error in his first game in '06, but look at him. These are young athletes. Demanding immediate perfection jut isn't practical. Patience my friend, patience.

As for Ca$h-money, he may very well be gone after this year. I don't say that I'm discontent with any of the work he's done, because for the bad decisions he's made, he has a bunch of good ones to balance that with. But I think this new regime is too much for him. The status quo has changed. The organizational structure is much different than it has been the past decade since he's been GM. On-field, in the owner's box, in the front office, down on the farm..everything is different. We have to see how all of that plays out with him this year. If he doesn't want to come back, I can definitely see him with say the Phillies for instance next year.

[Mr Crunchy]

i think the pressure on hughes and kennedy has been expanded due to the trade rumors with santana and the fact that the sox youngsters have stepped up while fredo steinbrenner does the lithium shuffle wondering why joba chamberlain cant bat cleanup while starting every other game.
the yanks have hit stride about the same time offensively as we have but over the long haul our staff is deeper and more consistant and should hold out.
hughes broke a rib but nobody knows how?
its murder to cough with a broken rib but to pitch it must be brutality.
maybe he needs geritol or perhaps some type of female osteo supplement for his brittleness,didnt he spend some time on the dl last year for a bone break of somekind in his leg??
anyway
as far as cant miss goes its just not in stone
the boy may have the most talent of any young arm in the game but the blossoming of young pitchers is a delicate road to travel and the bronx a hard place to find sympathy if the guy you were to be dealt for is pitching well in queens...
he may be in oakland in august if he doesnt perform
the idea of the ny media and the steinbrenners being patient with phil hughes is pure fantasy
the average ny baseball fan has the attention span of pocket lint and after 13 years of making the playoffs they may not be able to handle finishing out of the running as phil hughes learns the ropes while taking the lumps that go with it...

[Hammer]

yo crunchy,
what did we use to sing???

do dah
do dah

bwahahahahahaha!! omg what will hank do if the friggin d rays come in ahead of the spankme's??????

gak, urp,,,,,oy!

[Gom]

Cashman has no idea about pitching. Zero. Worse than zero.

Yankees had a chance at Beckett and Pedro. He took Pavano.

He could have had Lilly instead of Igawa. Lilly was dying to come to New York.

Could have had Dice-K instead of Igawa.

Signed Farnsworth.

Could have traded for Santana.

Signed Contreras.

Acquired Loiaza.

Exactly who has he picked up as a lefty in the pen in the last ten years?

Kevin Brown.

Jeff Weaver.

Randy Johnson.

Got Vazquez. Traded away Vazquez. Then he got better.

Picked Ohlendorf over Micah Owings. He had his PICK. Fucked that one up too.

You want to seriously know how I knew that the Santana deal would haunt the Yankees?

Because Cashman didn't get him. He can't figure it out. He doesn't have an eye for the game, because he didn't even play wiffleball growing up.

STOP READING PRESS CLIPPINGS. WATCH THE DAMN GAME.

I hope to death I'm wrong. I just don't see what to like. Hughes has a power pitcher's control..but not a power pitcher's arm. He has a slow, sweeping curve, but has difficulty locating it.

Kennedy throws an 88-89 MPH fastball. Control is not there. Doesn't have a strong secondary pitch. Don't see how this kid will succeed.

There is a saying from baseball scouts about Yankee prospects. The closer they get to the major league level, the less the Yankees like them. If you want the wool pulled over your eyes, your choice. Not me.

[Remember the Titans]

u kno theirs thiz rly good pitcher at the aaa level. hiz name is thumper. perhaps cash shud sign him?

[The Dustball]

Kennedy actually pitched really well tonight in his first start since being demoted 7IP 1 Hit and No runs. Maybe he just can't handle the pressure in NY

[26 to 6]

Originally Posted by Gom

Cashman has no idea about pitching. Zero. Worse than zero.

Yankees had a chance at Beckett and Pedro. He took Pavano.

He could have had Lilly instead of Igawa. Lilly was dying to come to New York.

Could have had Dice-K instead of Igawa.

Signed Farnsworth.

Could have traded for Santana.

Signed Contreras.

Acquired Loiaza.

Exactly who has he picked up as a lefty in the pen in the last ten years?

Kevin Brown.

Jeff Weaver.

Randy Johnson.

Got Vazquez. Traded away Vazquez. Then he got better.

Picked Ohlendorf over Micah Owings. He had his PICK. Fucked that one up too.

You want to seriously know how I knew that the Santana deal would haunt the Yankees?

Because Cashman didn't get him. He can't figure it out. He doesn't have an eye for the game, because he didn't even play wiffleball growing up.

STOP READING PRESS CLIPPINGS. WATCH THE DAMN GAME.

I hope to death I'm wrong. I just don't see what to like. Hughes has a power pitcher's control..but not a power pitcher's arm. He has a slow, sweeping curve, but has difficulty locating it.

Kennedy throws an 88-89 MPH fastball. Control is not there. Doesn't have a strong secondary pitch. Don't see how this kid will succeed.

There is a saying from baseball scouts about Yankee prospects. The closer they get to the major league level, the less the Yankees like them. If you want the wool pulled over your eyes, your choice. Not me.

Kevin Brown for Jeff Weaver was a good trade. It worke out well the first year, but then it went downhill. But you can't blame him for making that trade, Weaver had to go.

You can't blame him for getting Weaver with what he was projected to be coming up with Detroit.

Randy Johnson was a George-inspired thing. They needed him at the deadline in 2004, couldnt get him, so they had no choice in the offseason what with al themedia hype and daily developments heading up to the deadline. It didnt work out well, which probably was proected by some, but if you have a hance to get Randy Johnson you do it. I do think it's unfortunate that they gave up on Vaz so quickly. He should have had more than 1 season in pinstripe. That was the cost though.

I agree with you on Contreras for Loaiza.

Signing Contreras wasn't a bad move, he just couldn't stomach it initially and they gave up on him. Even the Red Sox went hard after him.

Kyle Farnsworth was going into the season a great pickup, an upgrade over Tom Gordon who was great as the setup guy here. Unfortunately some guys can't adjust to New York well, it happens. But it wasn't a bad decision. And now he's even started to be pretty good.

Are you kidding me with Pedro? I wasn't opposed to the signing of him, and there was even that rumor at one point that he and the Yanks were close on a 4 year, $50 Mil deal. But financially it would have hurt, and look just how much time he's been out injured since being with the Mets. Can't blame him for not making that commitment.

As for Dice-K, the Yanks made an effort. Unfortunately is wasn't as high as the Mets and Sox, but still, their offer was higher than any previous bid ever made on the NPB posting market. Because of Dice-K the posting prices skyrocketed...for all of the non Free-Agent Japanese players since. He did those NPB owners a favor. But don't get down on the Yanks for that, their offer was competitive.

As for lefties....Jesse Orrosco? hahah
I do remember Cash pulling hard for Sauerbeck in 203, who AT THE TIME was a good pickup, but there's nothing he could have done about the Sox trading #1 prospect Freddy Sanchez for a middle-inning lefty.


I'm with you man and I understand your frustrations. Most of them we'rent bad decisions, granted some were, but most of them just didn't work out as expected. Whaddya gonna do? But hindsight is nice, right?

Hopefully Hughes can turn it around and be himself and we can move Kennedy in a good deal.

[ARod2212]

IT'S MAY FUCKING 7TH.

[Remember the Titans]

Originally Posted by ARod2212

IT'S MAY FUCKING 7TH.

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

Kevin Brown for Jeff Weaver was a good trade. It worke out well the first year, but then it went downhill. But you can't blame him for making that trade, Weaver had to go.

You can't blame him for getting Weaver with what he was projected to be coming up with Detroit.

Randy Johnson was a George-inspired thing. They needed him at the deadline in 2004, couldnt get him, so they had no choice in the offseason what with al themedia hype and daily developments heading up to the deadline. It didnt work out well, which probably was proected by some, but if you have a hance to get Randy Johnson you do it. I do think it's unfortunate that they gave up on Vaz so quickly. He should have had more than 1 season in pinstripe. That was the cost though.

I agree with you on Contreras for Loaiza.

Signing Contreras wasn't a bad move, eh just couldn't stomach it initially and they gave up on him. Even the Red Sox went hard after him.

Kyle Farnsworth was going into the season a great pickup, an upgrade over Tom Gordon who was great as the setup guy here. Unfortunately some guys can't adjust to New York well, it happens. But it wasn't a bad decision. And now he's even started to be pretty good.

Are you kidding me with Pedro? I wasn't opposed to the signing of him, and there was even that rumor at one point that he and the Yanks were close on a 4 year, $50 Mil deal. But financially it would have hurt, and look just how much time he's been out injured since being with the Mets. Can't blame him for not making that commitment.

As for Dice-K, the Yanks made an effort. Unfortunately is wasn't as high as the Mets and Sox, but still, their offer was higher than any previous bid ever made on the NPB posting market. Because of Dice-K the posting prices skyrocketed...for all of the non Free-Agent Japanese players since. He did those NPB owners a favor. But get don on the Yanks for that, their offer was competitive.

As for lefties....Jesse Orrosco? hahah


I'm with you man and I understand your frustrations. Most of them we'rent bad decisions, granted some were, but most of them just didn't work out as expected. Whaddya gonna do? But hindsight is nice, right?

Hopefully Hughes can turn it around and be himself and we can move Kennedy in a good deal.

wut do u guis think bout the thump pitchin' 4 u all? he sayz he wood turn down a contract from the skanks but i dunno?

[ARod2212]

Hughes has been pitching with a cracked rib. How quickly can you forget how good he looked relieving Clemens in Game 3 last year? Hughes will be fine.

Kennedy just threw 7.1 shutout innings in AAA, allowing 1 hit and striking out 8 and walking nobody. Yeah, there's absolutely no way he can succeed at the big league level. Calm the fuck down. Hughes is 21 years old. Kennedy is 23. Give them a chance to pitch.

[Gom]

Oh my goodness.

You know why players can do well in AAA?

Because anyone who is any good is in the majors.

Look, I think Kennedy will have a Scott Kamenicki or Dave Lapoint kind of career. Serviceable. But we had a chance at the best pitcher in the game for this guy.

Now, as a GM, making a mil a year...you are supposed to be able to analyze pitching. This guy hasn't, because all he does is read scouting reports and punch in numbers. He doesn't have a feel for it. It's much easier to predict hitters than pitchers, but all it takes is number crunching. Finding pitching talent is another thing altogether.

Go check out my post about fixing up the Yankees I made last offseason. By no means am I an expert on pitching [my baseball stopped at high school], but I would have done a shitload better job than this moron.

Someone here who is a Hughes/Kennedy lover....please...enlighten me. Just what do you see about these guys you love?

Originally Posted by ARod2212

Hughes is 21 years old. Kennedy is 23. Give them a chance to pitch.

Umm...isn't that what they did? I pray to God they get their chance. Next spring training. We would have been playing the Red Sox at home if we didn't blow at the beginning of the season last year. Enough with the youthful circle jerk.