No question. Molina is better than Posada.

[ORS]

Originally Posted by Gom

Sorry ORS, I believe Flaherty more than I would ever believe anything you'd say.

Who gives a shit? According to you, anyone who uses the work or opinion of another is just "sheep" anyway, right? Enjoy the hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Gom

As for the strawman comment, I was comparing Molina to Posada. Not anyone else. You said the first time since 2002 that the backup had a better CERA was 2007. I don't care about previous seasons, and since Molina came to the Yankees in late 2006, well...there you go.

Bullshit, you quoted a tangential comment that had nothing to do with this. You still don't know what stawman means, and you got caught using it wrong.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by ORS

You are like the little engine that couldn't. I'll give you some credit trying to draw a comparable situation there, but in typical fashion, common sense elluded you, and you were wrapped in the cold embrace of failure.

That paragraph is full of WIN, enough said.

Originally Posted by Gom

For all you genuises [sic] out there....

Explain why the team pitchers do better with Molina than Posada. I'm waiting.

Sabathia got crushed today......by the Angels.....without Vlad.....with Molina catching.....explain that, because by your explanation CC's stats should have been 7 ip, 1 ER, 9 Ks, or something of the sort, sadly, it wasn't, so explain it, we're waiting.

Look, game-calling is an art, and Molina is better at it, but it's harder to quantify. I believe that if a pitcher makes his pitches, he gets the batter out.

However, every pitcher lives on the corners. There isn't a pitcher in baseball who throws the ball down the middle the majority of the time and is successful.

It's that one or two inches off the plate and high and low that makes all the difference in the game. You get that "Oh, Mariano always gets that call" or "the Maddux strike zone". The ability of a catcher to influence a pitcher on the periphery of the plate is critical.

Really?

You're trying to create an argument off of "pitch framing"?

Seriously?

Really Seriously?

That has to be the dumbest argument i have ever read you say, and i've read some really stupid ones from you, so congrats, on reaching a new level of stupid and making Jacko look like the hero of logic.

Sorry ORS, I believe Flaherty more than I would ever believe anything you'd say. Especially when it's so blatantly obvious. As for the strawman comment, I was comparing Molina to Posada. Not anyone else. You said the first time since 2002 that the backup had a better CERA was 2007. I don't care about previous seasons, and since Molina came to the Yankees in late 2006, well...there you go.

O i c wat u did der....... u believe in Flaherty moar.......

You, sir, are a douche.

I know you hate admitting you're wrong, which is funny, because you're wrong often. It's an ego defect. I expect more from you, but you're talking like Mr. Swine Flu.

All I'm telling you is to pay attention to Posada and Molina behind the plate when the Sox come to town. Then you'll see what I'm talking about.

No we won't, because since Molina is a backup catcher, he might not even play in that series.

On a side note, what irks me here sometimes is that no one comes up with an idea here. If it isn't supported by any of your available data, you're quick to dismiss it. Defensive metrics are what...two or three years old in mainstream baseball circles?

Three years ago, Dunn and Abreu would have been signed to multi-year, expensive contracts. Advances in defensive statistics have increased our knowledge of the game. However, NOTHING on the field changed. The game didn't change, our knowledge did. People scoffed at defense...just look at Moneyball. Now, where are those same people? They just follow what they're told.

Now here i shall show you the proper use of the word STRAWMAN, because THIS IS ONE,
you can't count "pitch framing" or "waiting until the ump makes the call before lowering the glove" along with defensive metrics, because there isn't one for those invaluable intangibles that you preach, besides, what the fuck do Adam Dunn and Bobby Abreu (both offensive minded everyday players) with Jose fucking Molina (defensive minded backup catcher).

Ah yes, the strawman at its best.

From 1977 to 1983, Omar Moreno had at least 400 ABs, and led the league twice in plate appearances. Teams believed in speed, and didn't realize the importance of OBP and OPS. His highest OBP was .339. In fact, in 1980, he led the league in plate appearances.

His line: .249BA .306OBP .325SLG .631OPS 96SB 33CS

Do you think he would get a shot today? In 1980, he had 676 at bats!

And who the fuck cares?

What I'm trying to say is that we may have not created a metric or formula to prove or disprove what I'm saying. It exists on the field. Going back to Molina/Posada, in Burnett's last game, Burnett threw a beauty of a pitch that may have been called a strike with any other catcher than Posada, who caught the ball and immediately dropped the glove. The count was 2-2. The next pitch, the batter walked. Instead of an out and no one on base, it was a runner on first. Pitchers consistenly get ahead in the count more with Molina, he calls a better game, he frames pitches better, and he's got a better arm. Even today, Sabathia ran out of gas but gave up 4 runs in the seventh inning. If Girardi had taken him out after 100 pitches, he would have pitched a shut out.

Oh, so you have a crystal ball to see the "what might have been future", awesome, can you tell me what might have been if you hadn't started this stupid thread.

Now...Posada may go out and catch a no-hitter, and the Lord Almighty can't help CMW. However, over time, this trend we saw last year and are seeing this year can't be dismissed.

All I'm asking any of you is to think outside the box, and watch Posada and Molina, and tell me if you see what I see.

Sounds like waving the white flag to me.

[TheKilo]

Watch the gamezzzzzzzzz

[CrespoBlows]

Originally Posted by Gom

For all you genuises [sic] out there....

Explain why the team pitchers do better with Molina than Posada. I'm waiting.

Look, game-calling is an art, and Molina is better at it, but it's harder to quantify. I believe that if a pitcher makes his pitches, he gets the batter out.

However, every pitcher lives on the corners. There isn't a pitcher in baseball who throws the ball down the middle the majority of the time and is successful.

It's that one or two inches off the plate and high and low that makes all the difference in the game. You get that "Oh, Mariano always gets that call" or "the Maddux strike zone". The ability of a catcher to influence a pitcher on the periphery of the plate is critical.

Sorry ORS, I believe Flaherty more than I would ever believe anything you'd say. Especially when it's so blatantly obvious. As for the strawman comment, I was comparing Molina to Posada. Not anyone else. You said the first time since 2002 that the backup had a better CERA was 2007. I don't care about previous seasons, and since Molina came to the Yankees in late 2006, well...there you go.

I know you hate admitting you're wrong, which is funny, because you're wrong often. It's an ego defect. I expect more from you, but you're talking like Mr. Swine Flu.

All I'm telling you is to pay attention to Posada and Molina behind the plate when the Sox come to town. Then you'll see what I'm talking about.

On a side note, what irks me here sometimes is that no one comes up with an idea here. If it isn't supported by any of your available data, you're quick to dismiss it. Defensive metrics are what...two or three years old in mainstream baseball circles?

Three years ago, Dunn and Abreu would have been signed to multi-year, expensive contracts. Advances in defensive statistics have increased our knowledge of the game. However, NOTHING on the field changed. The game didn't change, our knowledge did. People scoffed at defense...just look at Moneyball. Now, where are those same people? They just follow what they're told.

From 1977 to 1983, Omar Moreno had at least 400 ABs, and led the league twice in plate appearances. Teams believed in speed, and didn't realize the importance of OBP and OPS. His highest OBP was .339. In fact, in 1980, he led the league in plate appearances.

His line: .249BA .306OBP .325SLG .631OPS 96SB 33CS

Do you think he would get a shot today? In 1980, he had 676 at bats!

What I'm trying to say is that we may have not created a metric or formula to prove or disprove what I'm saying. It exists on the field. Going back to Molina/Posada, in Burnett's last game, Burnett threw a beauty of a pitch that may have been called a strike with any other catcher than Posada, who caught the ball and immediately dropped the glove. The count was 2-2. The next pitch, the batter walked. Instead of an out and no one on base, it was a runner on first. Pitchers consistenly get ahead in the count more with Molina, he calls a better game, he frames pitches better, and he's got a better arm. Even today, Sabathia ran out of gas but gave up 4 runs in the seventh inning. If Girardi had taken him out after 100 pitches, he would have pitched a shut out.

Now...Posada may go out and catch a no-hitter, and the Lord Almighty can't help CMW. However, over time, this trend we saw last year and are seeing this year can't be dismissed.

All I'm asking any of you is to think outside the box, and watch Posada and Molina, and tell me if you see what I see.

Couldn't it be that the economy collapsed?

[Gom]

I'm just wondering...

Has Diaper ever written anything of value here? Banter aside, he's really quite stupid isn't he? I like how ORS got into a discussion about strawman instead of the point I made...and the Mr. Swine Flu jumped in for his half-cent worth. The best part is someone who's never played baseball in his life is debating the game with me. Priceless.

[Keeper]

I think if Posada weren't so good from an offensive standpoint you could make a case for someone like Molina starting - if he brought more to the table than just his defense, which he doesn't. It's true that a catcher who is good at framing the ball is a pitcher's best friend and a hitter's worst nightmare. And a catcher's primary function is to call a good game (if the manager allows it)/throw out runners/block balls in the dirt. That's how it has always been. That's how it will always be. But a catcher who can rake is rare. Rarer still is a catcher who can rake for a long time. And that's something that Posada has done, to his credit.

Varitek's performance today does lend some credibility to Gom's argument. I know Crawford stole some of those bases off the pitchers, but not all 6 of them.

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by Gom

I'm just wondering...

Has Diaper ever written anything of value here? Banter aside, he's really quite stupid isn't he? I like how ORS got into a discussion about strawman instead of the point I made...and the Mr. Swine Flu jumped in for his half-cent worth. The best part is someone who's never played baseball in his life is debating the game with me. Priceless.

WATCH THE GAMEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[ORS]

Originally Posted by Gom

I'm just wondering...

Has Diaper ever written anything of value here? Banter aside, he's really quite stupid isn't he? I like how ORS got into a discussion about strawman instead of the point I made...and the Mr. Swine Flu jumped in for his half-cent worth. The best part is someone who's never played baseball in his life is debating the game with me. Priceless.

Who brought strawman up, again? That little tangent was initiated by you.

You played, what, high school baseball, Gom? Alert the press.

[TheKilo]

I think he umpires too

I mean UMPIREZZZZZ

[Dipre]

I will now begin watching the games to be as kewl as Gom.

However, i must say, (trying to impress everyone just like our friend here Gom does), that i play softball, so that must mean i'm quite knowledgeable about pitching, catching, etc etc etc.

[TheKilo]

Do you know how to frame pitches?

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Do you know how to frame pitches?

How could i?

I lack the awesomeness of Jose Molina!

[ORS]

Oh wait, you said pitches.

Nevermind.

[TheKilo]

lulz

[jacksonianmarch]

well Gom, we'll get a chance to see how your theory holds up. Posada is going for an MRI of the hammy and likely is out for the next few days.