Joe Girardi Discussion Thread

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by YeAuldBroade

Wakefield - WRONG, WRONG, WRONG They have Wakefield in the pen because they can't work out a 6 man rotation. That's a goofier response than your original comment.

Wakefield can't pitch every day even if he is a knuckleballer. The last time he was pitching out of the bullpen he was in his mid-30's, he's now 43 - there are many less options. You don't pull every pitcher, every time they give up a couple of runs in the 4th inning unless you want to manage the worst team in baseball. Pitchers give up runs. Sometimes you leave a starting pitcher in too long and he gives up a 3 run homer. Sometimes you pull him when there's two on base and the relief pitcher gives up a 3 run homer. The better the pitcher the better the chance he gets his shit together and stricks the fucker out. Even at this point I'd put more money on Beckett, than on Schoenweiss, Ramirez, DelCarmen...........

All through the season? Really? It's MAY!

If you read above, you'll notice i said "If Wakefield hasn't pitched the day before".

You can't pitch your long reliever in consecutive days, i know this.

However, let me ask you this:

How many times has Tito brought an SP that's given up 3-4 runs back for a 6th/7th inning with 90+ pitches only to see him get hammered and watch the game get out of hand?

Answer:

Multiple times. All through the season. Mostly with Wakefield available to pitch.

I can name off the top of my head at least three Beckett starts, a couple of Lester ones, and a Bucholz one. And i bet if i did some research i could stumble upon at least ten losses in which this has been the common factor.

Don't let your loyalties fool you. Francona is a good fit for the Sox, but he's an awful tactician.

[YeAuldBroade]

How many times has Tito brought an SP that's given up 3-4 runs back for a 6th/7th inning with 90+ pitches only to see him get hammered and watch the game get out of hand?
I'm sure there's a stat for it but I'm not a stathead so I wouldn't know.

However this doesn't erase anything I've said. If a pitcher ONLY yes ONLY has 90 pitches through 5 innings and has only given up 2-4 runs and I have an unreliable, overused bullpen and a SP that's SUPPOSED to be an Ace.. I bring him out in the 6th. If the first batter or two reach, I get someone warming up in the bullpen. Sometimes the SP will give up the big hit(s) before the bullpen is ready. But that's why you play the games on the field and not on the computer.

Answer:

Multiple times. All through the season. Mostly with Wakefield available to pitch.

I can name off the top of my head at least three Beckett starts, a couple of Lester ones, and a Bucholz one. And i bet if i did some research i could stumble upon at least ten losses in which this has been the common factor.
Ok just addressed this.

Don't let your loyalties fool you. Francona is a good fit for the Sox, but he's an awful tactician.
You missed the point by a solar system. This has nothing to do with Francona. This is about baseball and managing a pitching staff that's SUPPOSED to be made up of Aces. You work with what you have and try to get the best out of it. And sometimes you lose.

[Dipre]

I'd agree with most of the above, but couple points:

1) A manager's job is to put his team in the best position to win. When you bring in a guy who's obviously struggling back for an extra inning with a fresh long reliever,(this is the key point) you're not giving your team the best chance to win. It doesn't matter whether the pitcher is supposedly an ace or not, if he's getting hammered, he shouldn't be out there.

2) This is about Francona, because he's the guy you're defending. I don't dislike the guy, he's a good fit for the team, but as i said, he's an awful tactician, because he's the ultimate player's manager. I'm not in the dugout, so i'm only speculating, but he seems to be easily persuaded by pitchers to get that "last inning" or that "last batter" and more often than not, it winds up costing him.

3) The Girardi comment was tongue-in-cheek, i wouldn't want him within a 100 KM radius on Fenway, but that doesn't excuse Tito's shortcomings as a manager.It's either him or Farrell, but there seems to be an issue with both the conditioning and usage of the pitching staff this year, a pitching corpse as talented as this one shouldn't be this bad for so long.

[YeAuldBroade]

Originally Posted by Dipre

I'd agree with most of the above, but couple points:

1) A manager's job is to put his team in the best position to win. When you bring in a guy who's obviously struggling back for an extra inning with a fresh long reliever,(this is the key point) you're not giving your team the best chance to win. It doesn't matter whether the pitcher is supposedly an ace or not, if he's getting hammered, he shouldn't be out there.

2) This is about Francona, because he's the guy you're defending. I don't dislike the guy, he's a good fit for the team, but as i said, he's an awful tactician, because he's the ultimate player's manager. I'm not in the dugout, so i'm only speculating, but he seems to be easily persuaded by pitchers to get that "last inning" or that "last batter" and more often than not, it winds up costing him.

3) The Girardi comment was tongue-in-cheek, i wouldn't want him within a 100 KM radius on Fenway, but that doesn't excuse Tito's shortcomings as a manager.It's either him or Farrell, but there seems to be an issue with both the conditioning and usage of the pitching staff this year, a pitching corpse as talented as this one shouldn't be this bad for so long.

1). I've already been over this. I disagree. My point is more valid and I'm tired of typing the same thing over and over so you can regurgitate the same point over and over. I have even addressed the "struggling".

2). Don't put words in my mouth. That pisses me off. This is about baseball not Francona. You hate Francona so refuse to accept he could be doing anything that was a standard in baseball - because it's tried and true and the right thing to do. I harken back to the days of Jimy Williams who was Francona-bizarro. He pulled every pitcher at 100 pitches no matter how damn good he was doing and it cost the Sox a LOT of games and beat the bullpen to the ground. And you see how many World Series Williams won.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by YeAuldBroade

1). I've already been over this. I disagree. My point is more valid and I'm tired of typing the same thing over and over so you can regurgitate the same point over and over. I have even addressed the "struggling".

Saying your point is more valid doesn't make it more valid. My point stands, he's a bad tactician, and it's a thing basically everyone agrees on.

2). Don't put words in my mouth. That pisses me off. This is about baseball not Francona. You hate Francona so refuse to accept he could be doing anything that was a standard in baseball - because it's tried and true and the right thing to do. I harken back to the days of Jimy Williams who was Francona-bizarro. He pulled every pitcher at 100 pitches no matter how damn good he was doing and it cost the Sox a LOT of games and beat the bullpen to the ground. And you see how many World Series Williams won.

You're the ones putting words in my mouth.

I don't hate Francona, i've always defended his positives on the board, but it doesn't make me blind to his negatives. Doesn't mean i hate him and i've never said as much.

[YeAuldBroade]

"Saying your point is more valid doesn't make it more valid."
Of course it does, I'm older and wiser.
he's a bad tactician, and it's a thing basically everyone agrees on
But in most cases he's handling the pitchers correctly. No he's not a great in-game manager and can often be second guessed but I've been on this board long enough to know that you guys would pull the pitcher at the first man in scoring position. Francona is right, usually, when it comes to pulling the pitchers for ALL the reasons I've already stated.
"You're the ones putting words in my mouth"
Yup! Did it on purpose. Sucks doesn't it.

[yankees228]

It's important for manager's to anticipate problems, instead of waiting for them to arise. If the starter is struggling, you can't wait for him to put a couple guys on in the sixth or seventh inning before you get someone up in the bullpen. Someone already needs to be up in the bullpen, because a struggling starter isn't usually going to be able to work out of his own jam in the late innings.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by yankees228

It's important for manager's to anticipate problems, instead of waiting for them to arise. If the starter is struggling, you can't wait for him to put a couple guys on in the sixth or seventh inning before you get someone up in the bullpen. Someone already needs to be up in the bullpen, because a struggling starter isn't usually going to be able to work out of his own jam in the late innings.

This. This is where Francona fails miserably.

[yankees228]

Originally Posted by YeAuldBroade

"Saying your point is more valid doesn't make it more valid."
Of course it does, I'm older and wiser.
he's a bad tactician, and it's a thing basically everyone agrees on
But in most cases he's handling the pitchers correctly. No he's not a great in-game manager and can often be second guessed but I've been on this board long enough to know that you guys would pull the pitcher at the first man in scoring position. Francona is right, usually, when it comes to pulling the pitchers for ALL the reasons I've already stated.
"You're the ones putting words in my mouth"
Yup! Did it on purpose. Sucks doesn't it.

No implications or connotations here, just an honest question. Do you really feel that in this setting, or any setting for that matter, your point is more valid because of your age?

[YeAuldBroade]

Originally Posted by yankees228

It's important for manager's to anticipate problems, instead of waiting for them to arise. If the starter is struggling, you can't wait for him to put a couple guys on in the sixth or seventh inning before you get someone up in the bullpen. Someone already needs to be up in the bullpen, because a struggling starter isn't usually going to be able to work out of his own jam in the late innings.

The 5th or 6th isn't late innings. And you're wrong. The "Aces" do pitch themselves out of trouble, more often than not unless it's just fatigue or injury. I'm not making this stuff up people and I'm not saying this to "protect" Francona. We've also got 3 "Aces" that have/are pitching subpar and YES!!! JESUS!!! pitchers work it out on the mound, especially this time of year.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder why I even bother.

[YeAuldBroade]

Originally Posted by yankees228

No implications or connotations here, just an honest question. Do you really feel that in this setting, or any setting for that matter, your point is more valid because of your age?

It was a joke for fuck sake.

[yankees228]

Originally Posted by YeAuldBroade

The 5th or 6th isn't late innings. And you're wrong. The "Aces" do pitch themselves out of trouble, more often than not unless it's just fatigue or injury. I'm not making this stuff up people and I'm not saying this to "protect" Francona. We've also got 3 "Aces" that have/are pitching subpar and YES!!! JESUS!!! pitchers work it out on the mound, especially this time of year.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder why I even bother.

I didn't say the fifth inning, and I was talking about pitchers in general, not just aces. However, in the case of someone like Beckett, when it's clear he isn't pitching like that 'ace' you're talking about, I don't think it's worth the risk in the later innings to maybe let himself work through his issues. He can do that in the first half (or more) of the game.

[yankees228]

Originally Posted by YeAuldBroade

It was a joke for fuck sake.

Which is why I asked the question, I wasn't sure, as there was no simile or other clear indication that it was a joke. Furthermore, judging by some of your comments in the no-hitter thread, from an outside perspective, it would have been a reasonable assumption to think that you're being serious. However, I wasn't making any assumption, I was simply asking a question.

[YeAuldBroade]

The no-hitter thread still pisses me off - not because it was about baseball but because I think it's about a shift in morality between the generations. I think it's scary, dangerous and I'm glad I'm 46 and will not have to live through too many of the societal repurcussions. However there are children I love out there and my heart breaks for them.

[jacksonianmarch]

Girardi played a good tactitian in Florida. He came to NY and just did what Torre did, except didnt burn out his bullpen, which eventually won him a championship. Managing the way he is will not keep us in a playoff spot for long with the current roster we have. We need to get healthy fast or we're gonna be in trouble. Continuing to hit Gardner in the 2 hole and Tex in the 3 hole with Grandy, Posada and Johnson out is a frickin death sentence. Gardner is exposed in the 2 hole right now. He fits much better as the pest in the 9 hole. Tex, right now, is hitting in a integral part of the lineup and is just sucking. He's got nearly 30RBI out of a .200BA. Think about all the runners he's stranded.

Also, what the fuck is up with our late inning rallies. Lie completely dormant for 8 innings, then score enough runs to make it respectable in the 9th. Fucking ridiculous. Our starters are coming back down to earth, our pen is inexplicably blowing big leads. Our lineup gets a ton of runners on but cannot make contact to bring runners home. How many more times must I see 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and we dont get the fucking run home.

Regardless, some of the pain will be alleviated this week with Granderson coming back and probably Swisher moving up to the 2 hole. Thus allowing Gardy to move to the 9 hole and Granderson down to the 6 or 7 hole depending on the pitcher. That sets up a L/R platoon at DH with Thames and Miranda, thus allowing us to keep Thames bat, but avoid him butchering games in the OF. The bats will break out soon