Joe Girardi Discussion Thread - Talksox

yankees228 · 04-14-2010, 03:10 PM

Well, one of these needed to be started eventually. Just like last year, Joe continues to make routinely make decisions in close games that hurt his team's chances to win. Today, so far, has been a perfect example.

Pineiro has been fantastic today, and down one run in the sixth inning, Torii Hunter was at third base with one out, and Kendry Morales up. Having just cut the lead in half during the previous inning, it's imperative that Joe does everything he can to prevent this run from scoring. Instead, he does absolutely nothing to prevent the run from scoring.

The first mistake he makes is to even pitch to Morales, who's an excellent hitter from the left side. You have a slow, right handed hitter on deck, who would present a good double play opportunity. Juan Rivera is also a much weaker hitter than Morales, so it makes sense on two different levels.

Thing is, based on another decision, we can clearly see that Joe isn't concerned with that run. He chooses to play the infield back, even with two strikes (where weaker contact is expected). Also, when you consider the fact that Morales is the number five hitter, you can afford to play the infield in, because a big inning isn't very likely with the bottom of the order due up. This particular decision didn't end up mattering, but it gives us insight into Joe's illogical mindset in this situation.

yankees228 · 04-14-2010, 03:12 PM

Additionally, because it's more relevant in this thread, I'll repost my comments about Joe's bullpen usage in this thread.

And here is where Joe also struggles. Prior to yesterday, Robertson pitched last Sunday, Tuesday, and Saturday. Aceves has only pitched once this year, which was last Tuesday. Yet, with an opportunity to give Aceves some much needed work, where the game wasn't close, he goes back to Robertson. Now he expects Aceves to come in here and get some big outs. He might do it, but Joe's job is to give him the best opportunity to succeed, and Joe just so rarely does that.

Gom · 04-14-2010, 03:19 PM

Just like last year, he's figuring out the roles for the pitchers. I agreed with his moves. I'm surprised that you don't.

yankees228 · 04-14-2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gom

Just like last year, he's figuring out the roles for the pitchers. I agreed with his moves. I'm surprised that you don't.

I don't even think either of these moves are up for debate.

In a 7-1 game, why pitch Robertson when Aceves is the one that needs work? He has to try to keep guys fresh, and when given the opportunity to do so, he failed in this case.

As for his decisions with Morales up, I believe my argument is bullet proof.

If you have a legitimate counter argument for either move, instead of just being a sheep and agreeing with Girardi, I'd be interested to hear it.

Gom · 04-14-2010, 03:28 PM

Easy enough.

Pitching to Morales because he didn't want to put more runners on base. If you're going to pitch to him, you don't bring the infield in. You either put him on and go for the DP, or you pitch to him and hope to get lucky.

As for who to bring in yesterday, only a simpleton wouldn't see the strategy...everyone had a day off the day before. So everyone was rested.

Aceves and Park are the only real multi-inning relievers the Yankees have. Park pitched on opening day. So Aceves was saved for today. Guess what? He's in the game now. You won't often see Park and Aceves in the same game because the Yankees want to keep one multi-inning arm fresh every day.

Instead of bitching and moaning, try thinking.

yankees228 · 04-14-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gom

Easy enough.

Pitching to Morales because he didn't want to put more runners on base. If you're going to pitch to him, you don't bring the infield in. You either put him on and go for the DP, or you pitch to him and hope to get lucky.

As for who to bring in yesterday, only a simpleton wouldn't see the strategy...everyone had a day off the day before. So everyone was rested.

Aceves and Park are the only real multi-inning relievers the Yankees have. Park pitched on opening day. So Aceves was saved for today. Guess what? He's in the game now. You won't often see Park and Aceves in the same game because the Yankees want to keep one multi-inning arm fresh every day.

Instead of bitching and moaning, try thinking.

I never suggested to do both with Morales. I agree, you either bring the infield in or you set up the double play, not both. With that being said, I understand that his thinking was probably not to put more runners on base, but with the way Pineiro is pitching, he just could not afford to let the Angels score again. Couple that with the fact that the bottom of the order is due up, and the chances of a big inning are greatly diminished even with an extra runner on base.

I brought up him not bringing the infield in to help illustrate the point that Joe wasn't concerned with that runner at third, which he should have been. If he didn't want to walk Morales, which would have been the proper move, he should have at least brought the infield in, especially once the count went to 1-2, when the chances to solid contact aren't good.

As for pitching Aceves yesterday, you're right, he's a multi-inning reliever while Robertson is a short reliever. No doubt about it. But here's the problem. If you give Aceves a weak off, there is no way you can expect him to be sharp in a close game, which is what they needed today. The ninth inning of yesterday's game presented an opportunity to put a pitcher out there that needs work, and if he isn't sharp it won't cost you the game. I believe it's very unlucky, although I admit that we don't know for sure, that Aceves facing a few batters yesterday would have any impact on his availability today. But the thing is, even if he wasn't available today, it would be a better situation than throwing him today after having a weak off. They would have been better off going to someone else in a close game than him, after having pitched once this year (which was a weak ago).

He has done the exact same thing with Marte. Marte has only faced two batters this year, during the first two games of the season. After Park had gotten the first two hitters out in the top of the eighth inning yesterday, the proper move would have been to go to Marte against Morales, turning him around to his weaker side. Marte needs the work, especially when you consider that he wasn't sharp in either of his first two appearances. It's impossible to expect him to come in tomorrow and get someone like Bobby Abreu out in a big spot, or Josh Hamilton over the weekend, without having an opportunity to work the kinks out.

In games where the outcome isn't in doubt, a manager has to make decisions, not just for that game, but for future games. Joe has failed to do this, and it's something that cost him today, and will continue to cost him in the future if he doesn't correct this issue.

yankees228 · 04-21-2010, 10:34 PM

In addition to Joe really having a poor idea when to send runners (two bad decisions already in this game), I don't understand playing Winn today. The most logical day to play him in place of Swisher is tomorrow.

Today - Night game after a night game, with the Yankees' number five starter on the mound.

Tomorrow - Day game after a night game, with the Yankees' ace on the mound.

Makes no sense to me, unless, for some reason unbeknownst to me, Swisher couldn't go today.

jacksonianmarch · 04-22-2010, 08:16 AM

Joe wanted OF defense first since Oakland has a lot of ground out there. Thats why he started Gardner two nights ago against a lefty.

Overall, y228, I have to ......agree.......with.........Gom. Goddamnit, that fucking hurt.

Joe proved last yr that he uses April as a time to figure out his bullpen. And from there, he'll slot guys into roles. I think he has two roles in the pen sewn up and the rest up for grabs. So, unless NY has a close lead in the 8th or 9th, he could bring anyone in

Gom · 04-22-2010, 11:08 AM

Music to my ears, Jacko.

Another note. Posada is framing as well as I've seen him in a decade.

yankees228 · 04-22-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

Joe wanted OF defense first since Oakland has a lot of ground out there. Thats why he started Gardner two nights ago against a lefty.

Overall, y228, I have to ......agree.......with.........Gom. Goddamnit, that fucking hurt.

Joe proved last yr that he uses April as a time to figure out his bullpen. And from there, he'll slot guys into roles. I think he has two roles in the pen sewn up and the rest up for grabs. So, unless NY has a close lead in the 8th or 9th, he could bring anyone in

I understand he wanted outfield defense, but unless he wanted to have Winn start two of the games this series (which I'm sure he didn't), his start should have come today. First off, it would have been a day game after a night game, where Swisher might need the rest more. Second, and most importantly, if he has a choice between subtracting offense when his ace is on the mound, or subtracting offense when his number five starter is on the mound, the choice seems pretty obvious to me.

As for the bullpen, I completely understand, he uses April to figure out roles. I have absolutely no issue with that. But my complaint about his bullpen usage goes beyond the argument that he is trying to establish roles. In late game situations, where the outcome is not in doubt, he should take the time to try to get guys work who need it. The alternative would be not to give the guy work when the game isn't in doubt, and then, in a big spot, pitch him when he has barely been used. He did the latter, and, as expected, it cost the Yankees.

yankees228 · 04-22-2010, 12:55 PM

Additionally, after seeing today's lineup, I have a hard time believing that outfield defense is his primary concern when he has both Thames and Swisher starting.

yankees228 · 04-25-2010, 12:22 AM

Couple additional points in this thread.

In the ninth inning on friday night, Girardi pinch hit Thames for Johnson leading off against Fuentes. I understand that Joe wanted Thames, who hits lefties well, to face a lefty, but I still don't like the move. In that situation, down two runs, a walk is as good as a home run, and few players on the team are better at getting on base than Johnson. I'd prefer that over the platoon advantage.

The second point comes from today's game. Swisher bunted on his own in the fourth inning with nobody out, to move two runners up. I think it was a terrible decision, but I won't discuss that, because, according to Swisher, he did it on his own. However, what I will say is that I disagree with Joe's policy of allowing hitters to sac bunt on their own. In my opinion, a hitter should not be allowed to giveaway an out on their own. Those decisions are for the manager to make. I understand that Joe isn't the only manager to have this policy, and I'm sure it's quite common, but I still disagree with it.

jacksonianmarch · 04-25-2010, 07:12 AM

There is a reason for that policy. Some ABs, you just dont feel comfortable for some reason, and instead of bouncing into a DP or K'ing, you can make a productive out. I disagree with your POV on that. Bunting was the right move. Yeah, the bottom of the order is coming up, but it allows your team to score without the benefit of a hit. And, as it turned out, that bunt was big as Cervelli brought 2 of them home and the INT walk to Grandy hurt the Halos as well as he scored on Jeter's hit.

ORS · 04-25-2010, 08:20 AM

Bunting was the right move only in hindsight. If you were to repeat that scenario 100 times with the same players involved, there's little doubt in my mind that Swisher and Granderson taking their cuts results in more success than the sac bunt.

A good result doesn't change a bad decision to a good one.

jacksonianmarch · 04-25-2010, 08:36 AM

I would assume that the chances of scoring 1 run is higher after the bunt, but the chances of scoring multiple runs would be higher is Swish swung away. Against the Halos, I would always play for adding 1 run on at a time.