Yanks invite Bernie to ST - Page 2 - Talksox

TheKilo · 02-10-2007, 01:32 PM

If you can't bend the rules for the years Pedro had here...well...you're an idiot.

jacksonianmarch · 02-10-2007, 01:47 PM

Pedro will go into the HOF as a Red Sox and if he doesnt have his # retired while a big B sits on his cap in Cooperstown, JH and Lucchino should be lined up and shot.

jacksonianmarch · 02-10-2007, 01:48 PM

Clemens SHOULD be in the hall as a Red Sox, but at least he has a case to go in as a yankee. He won a WS in NY, he got his 300th win in NY, but he should technically go in as a Red Sox. His # should most certainly be retired in Boston as well. It really is too bad about their rules. Rice's # should be retired as well. Hopefully his will be next yr (he should be in the hall, no doubt in my mind).

example1 · 02-10-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Neckbones

HOF with 10 years as a Red Sox.

It's pretty damn hard to get a Sox number retired, especially these days.

Pedro won't get it.

At this rate Manny probably won't get his retired, and Ortiz would need to sign for at least one year past his current contract (including options) to get retired. I can't imagine Ortiz and Manny not having their numbers retired... depending on how long it takes the sox to move Manny. However, Cleveland has every right to retire his number too, as he was in their organization for 10 seasons, making appearances with the big club 8 of those years.

It is possible that neither will have their numbers hanging in fenway... that would be a shame. I think those three are worth reevaluating the criteria for. Manny is certainly deserving but he may choose/prefer Cleveland, but Ortiz is Boston's boy, and Pedro was the greatest while in boston.

jacksonianmarch · 02-10-2007, 02:11 PM

Manny and Ortiz were/are the best 1-2 punch in red sox history. The best 1-2 punch since the Babe and Gehrig. Not having their jerseys retired is spitting on the history of the franchise. Manny and Pedro are sure fire, 1st ballot HOFers. Ortiz has a longer road ahead, but is certainly within reach. They epitomized the red sox lone WS victory in 88 yrs. They should be honored as such when they are done.

a700hitter · 02-10-2007, 02:19 PM

Agreed. Pedro, Manny and Ortiz should have their numbers retired. Their accomplishments were historical. I still maintain that a strong argument can be made based on Lg Adj ERA, h/9, Whip, k's/9, and Winning % that Pedro is the best pitcher of all time. I've never seen a 1-2 punch like Manny and Ortiz. Unless you've seen Gehrig and Ruth no one has seen anything comparable.

example1 · 02-10-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a700hitter

Agreed. Pedro, Manny and Ortiz should have their numbers retired. Their accomplishments were historical. I still maintain that a strong argument can be made based on Lg Adj ERA, h/9, Whip, k's/9, and Winning % that Pedro is the best pitcher of all time. I've never seen a 1-2 punch like Manny and Ortiz. Unless you've seen Gehrig and Ruth no one has seen anything comparable.

I would LOVE to see a game pitting a team based on Gehrig and Ruth against a Ramirez and Ortiz led team. They absolutely deserve to get their numbers retired, but as currently constructed the Sox criteria will not allow it. Hopefully they will adapt new, stringent but appropriate guidelines.

Pedro had a 4 season stretch where game in and game out you might put him on the mound over Christy Matthewson or Walter Johnson or Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson in their primes. For two seasons that list gets limited to Koufax. Adjusting for 'roids and power hitters and all that stuff Pedro was absolutely amazing.

jacksonianmarch · 02-10-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a700hitter

Agreed. Pedro, Manny and Ortiz should have their numbers retired. Their accomplishments were historical. I still maintain that a strong argument can be made based on Lg Adj ERA, h/9, Whip, k's/9, and Winning % that Pedro is the best pitcher of all time. I've never seen a 1-2 punch like Manny and Ortiz. Unless you've seen Gehrig and Ruth no one has seen anything comparable.

the only guys you could make an argument for would be Gibson and Koufax. I dont care how high the mound is, if you put up a 1.12ERA over 300+ innings, you are god.

a700hitter · 02-10-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

the only guys you could make an argument for would be Gibson and Koufax. I dont care how high the mound is, if you put up a 1.12ERA over 300+ innings, you are god.

High mound, pitchers batting, 6 NL and 7 AL teams had sub 3 ERAs and 6 other starters had sub 2 ERAs. Gibson was a God, but when you do the adjustments Pedro was more amazing. The truly amazing thing about Gibson's season is not so much that he had the 1.12 ERA, but that he threw 306 innings and had 13 Shutouts.

jacksonianmarch · 02-10-2007, 03:34 PM

as much as I hated Pedro, he was probably the most dominant pitcher I had even seen in the AL. No doubt. Clemens can be lauded for his dominance over time, but in that 4 yr span for Pedro, he was in another league. And with the leagues the way they are and with the batting the way it is, if you wanted to call him the most dominant pitcher over a 4 yr span of all time, I wouldnt have any problem with it. Even past that span he as dominant. Imagine if he had a bigger frame to assist his velocity into his older yrs. He'd still be nasty. He was by far the smartest pitcher I have seen, and I watched Maddux a lot 10 yrs ago. Martinez could crack one off your knuckles, chuck a deadly change on the outside corner then throw that nasty slurvy pitch on the down and in. All balls, he was a legend and I am glad I got to see him pitch, even if it was for my teams most hated rival.

One Red Seat · 02-10-2007, 04:41 PM

I remember reading somewhere that if you put the '00 Pedro on an NL team in that timeframe on Diamond Mind, that he comes up with a sub-1 era. Pedro of '97-'00 is the Everest of pitching, IMO.

jacksonianmarch · 02-10-2007, 06:59 PM

I dont think anyone could dispute that ORS. He was unbelievable.

ARod2212 · 02-11-2007, 12:56 AM

Sick. He was absolutely sick. It was really a priviledge to watch him in his prime. The only thing I really hold against him is his head hunting reputation. He was really the best pitcher I've ever seen.

TheKilo · 02-11-2007, 12:58 AM

Like I said, if JWH and Company don't have a big #45 circle in RF before its all said and done, they're idiots.

bosoxnation07 · 02-11-2007, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

What does it matter? If the FO does not retire #45 something is very, very wrong.

Wakefield won't make the HoF, so that's a moot point.

It matters because the Sox rule states you have to be on the team for 10yrs and in the HOF. So as of right now hes is shit out of luck.