Thanks for the memories, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out - Page 2 - Talksox

Coco's Disciples · 10-09-2007, 07:39 PM

I STILL doubt Torre goes.

jacksonianmarch · 10-09-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coco's Disciples

I STILL doubt Torre goes.

dont make me reverse dickpunch you. I have had it done on me many times (thanks yankees) and I am ready to dish out the pain.

jacksonianmarch · 10-09-2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney Harrison

Please. As a Dodger fan, we've lost as many postseason series since our last championship as you guys since beating the Twins in 2004.

when was your last championship exactly?

TheKilo · 10-09-2007, 10:21 PM

Hey jacko - in the regular season, what should Torre have done differently?

jacksonianmarch · 10-09-2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Hey jacko - in the regular season, what should Torre have done differently?

If you take a look at the game threads from our first 50 games, you would see a lot of references to Joe's ineptitude.

He has always been a terrible manager of bullpens. Bringing in Proctor when we had 10 run leads, does that ring a bell? Or having a rested Mo only to watch a lead get squandered by Mike Myers facing right handed batters. He was a terrible bullpen manager.

He also forgot how to manager for a win. Too many times he trusted his players abilities to "drive home" that winning run instead of moving it along to be scored without the hit. And a good team drives home a run from 3rd and less than 2 outs something like 60-70% of the time, while that is exactly the % chance you will fail if you allow them to swing away without moving the runners.

His biggest sins are his own changes. He went from being a small ball manager who pitched to matchups, to a guy who coached on autopilot. He went from being a fair manager who had the respect of his players, to a manager who let his players run the roost. His time has come.

Rodney Harrison · 10-10-2007, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

when was your last championship exactly?

Since 1988, the Dodgers have lost 4 straight postseason series. The Yankees are going through the same funk right now...except those 4 series are over the last 4 seasons.

TheKilo · 10-10-2007, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

If you take a look at the game threads from our first 50 games, you would see a lot of references to Joe's ineptitude.

He has always been a terrible manager of bullpens. Bringing in Proctor when we had 10 run leads, does that ring a bell? Or having a rested Mo only to watch a lead get squandered by Mike Myers facing right handed batters. He was a terrible bullpen manager.

Proctor was off the team on July 31st. Until Joba got called up he was the second best option out of the pen behind Mo. Since you guys got put behind the 8-ball so early with your record (and yes, injuries to your rotation had a lot to do with that), what do you expect him to do?

At 21-29, if he was going to make a playoff push, he had to start riding his horses early. He did that with Proctor but Proctor was off the team on July 31st. Joba came in and did an excellent job, and Vizcaino stepped up in the second half. I fail to see where Torre's pen management over the course of the season should cost him his job.

Quote:

He also forgot how to manager for a win. Too many times he trusted his players abilities to "drive home" that winning run instead of moving it along to be scored without the hit. And a good team drives home a run from 3rd and less than 2 outs something like 60-70% of the time, while that is exactly the % chance you will fail if you allow them to swing away without moving the runners.

Yankee stats with a man of 3rd base:

Situation	Runs	BA	RBI	HR	OBP	SLG	OPS
Man on 3rd	60	.255	52	1	.385	.333	.718
2nd and 3rd	125	.327	120	7	.379	.513	.892
Based Loaded	158	.359	153	4	.377	.545	.922

Those don't look like awful stats to me. The Yankees sac bunted and ran quite often this year. You don't want to run into too many outs with that world class lineup, and besides they mashed in the second half. Couldn't the first half struggles be due to, gasp, the players not performing?

Quote:

His biggest sins are his own changes. He went from being a small ball manager who pitched to matchups, to a guy who coached on autopilot. He went from being a fair manager who had the respect of his players, to a manager who let his players run the roost. His time has come.

The Yankees were 21-29 after 50 games. In the 112 games following that they were 73-49. The players on the Yankees have come out and given Torre credit for their turnaround. Are you telling me that they didn't mean all of this and were winning in spite of him?

Where's the blame for Cashman?

ARod2212 · 10-10-2007, 01:54 AM

My only concern is that if Torre leaves, Rodriguez, Rivera, Posada and Pettitte will follow him out the door. Even if Torre costs them 8 games a year with his managing (the count this year according to NoMaas), it still pales in comparison to the games those guys win for us.

He is not a good in game manager, but he is a very good clubhouse manager, and it is important not to underestimate how important that is. He played a huge role in getting team morale up to rally and win 94 games after the start they had. My biggest concern is the next guy won't be able to deal with that.

I love Joe Girardi, but you have to admit that he was only dealing with young, ego-less guys. That won't be the case in the Bronx, and I don't know if JoeG can handle that.

TheKilo · 10-10-2007, 02:04 AM

I would really like to see how the guy costs you 8 games a year with his managing.

At the end of the day...players play and managers manage.

Where's the criticism for Jeter? The Teflon SS strikes again - 17 outs in 17 PAs.

Where's the Posada criticism? Abreu? Matsui? Wang? etc, etc.

The guy's been nothing but class since he got there and has done a hell of a job working in such a hostile environment. To listen to Yanks fans routinely bash him boggles my mind. I bash Francona at times too but he is easily the best RS Manager in my lifetime and possibly ever.

This rivals those sad clown paintings. I feel awful for the guy because he didn't deserve this.

ARod2212 · 10-10-2007, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

I would really like to see how the guy costs you 8 games a year with his managing.

4/13/07 vs. Oakland
4/24/07 vs. Tampa Bay
5/25/07 vs. LAA
5/27/07 vs. LAA
6/23/07 vs. SF
6/26/07 vs. Baltimore
9/13/07 vs. Toronto
9/25/07 vs. Tampa Bay

That was the list of games they had at NoMaas based upon mismanaged bullpens, et cetera.

I've ripped Torre a lot, but the blame goes to Wang, Clemens, Jeter, Matsui, Posada and co. Torre actually managed very well in the playoffs, the players just didn't get it done. There's no excuse to not score 8 runs against Paul Byrd.

He Hate Me · 10-10-2007, 11:10 AM

nods Torre managed pretty well in the postseason, and was clearly a huge reason why we were able to recover from that horrendous start.

The knock on Torre is that while that passive attitude is very good for a 162 game season where you have time to work the kinks out and for everyone to get the message, it's not so great in the postseason where you live and die in a much much shorter timespan.

Mr Crunchy · 10-10-2007, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 to 6

Yo......why can't we just win a fucking postseason series? It has been THREE YEARS, the 2004 ALDS against the Twins. That's ridiculous. I'm so angry right now but I cant even express any emotion, ive just been sitting here with a blank stare on my face. I just dont understand it. Why? WHY? WHYYYY?

Peace Joe! I guess this is so long.

stop relying on senior citizen arms and proven choke artists to get you over the top and then you may have a shot.
you had no business beating the twins that year either for the record.
joe nathan blew 2 saves if i recall?

TheKilo · 10-10-2007, 11:17 AM

Torre managed with a sense of urgency all year because he had to.

Francona had the option of resting guys down the stretch to keep them fresh for the playoffs, but he had to ride the horses in '05, too.

The season is a marathon, not a sprint, but Torre had to push the envelope to get the Yanks in the playoffs, which he did.

Optimist · 10-11-2007, 07:16 PM

A manager that has been in control of multiple $200+ million teams and lost in the first round of the playoffs three years in a row is being let go. Sounds like a good decision to me.

See Red · 10-11-2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optimist

A manager that has been in control of multiple $200+ million teams and lost in the first round of the playoffs three years in a row is being let go. Sounds like a good decision to me.

But Joe Torre doesn't throw and hit the baseball.