Now might be the perfect time to rebuild - Page 3 - Talksox

One Red Seat · 10-13-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

The drama needs to end. I just want to know, is he or isnt he coming back. People always seem to try and blame it on the players and whathaveyou. But his teams the past few seasons have crossed the finish line absolutely exhausted and it mostly has to do with his bullpen management.

What's he supposed to do? For the last 4 years he's been saddled with a rotation incapable of going deep into games consistently while still being expected to win the division and win it all.

Any you know what, next year's guy will have it no different, regardless of who it is. Hughes and Chamberlain are good for what, 150-160 IP next year, and Kennedy about 180. Good luck new guy, you'll lose your job at the end of the season too.

jacksonianmarch · 10-13-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

What's he supposed to do? For the last 4 years he's been saddled with a rotation incapable of going deep into games consistently while still being expected to win the division and win it all.

Any you know what, next year's guy will have it no different, regardless of who it is. Hughes and Chamberlain are good for what, 150-160 IP next year, and Kennedy about 180. Good luck new guy, you'll lose your job at the end of the season too.

I want a manager who is sensitive to the needs of the kids. Who wont overwork them. Who will schedule in skipped starts. This isnt Torre. Torre has a knack for "seeing what he has" early on and then going for broke until the regular season ends. That isnt the way you break in new kids. I am fine with bringing in a new manager who will be receptive to that. And if it holds us back from having another one and out in the postseason, then go ahead. The postseason isnt the goal IMO anymore. Having a renewable source of prospects and having a chance for sustained success without having to rely on aging stars is what I want. And if that takes a yr or two, then so be it.

One Red Seat · 10-13-2007, 03:23 PM

Torre has managed like the owner said, "Win it all or you're out." Coincindentally, the owner has done that. If he's given a new set of rules and relieved expectations, I have little doubt he'll do as expected.

riverside sluggers · 10-22-2007, 01:23 PM

Im guessing Jacko wouldnt like this

rotoworld

Quote:

Yanks To Pursue Rowand?
A source of mine with Yankee connections had some good info for me today. Much was discussed yesterday in Tampa.

For starters, the Yanks are expected to make "eye-popping" offers to retain Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera before the World Series ends. The team does not want the pair to file for free agency.

Additionally, the Yankees may make a big play for Aaron Rowand. They believe a package of Melky Cabrera, Chien-Ming Wang, and Ian Kennedy would entice the Twins for Johan Santana. That's a huge price, but doesn't seem out of line to me for the best pitcher in baseball.

example1 · 10-22-2007, 03:13 PM

Go ahead and deal Cabrera, Wang and Kennedy for Santana. Good luck with that one. Santana is good but that sounds like trading Soriano for A-Rod. Nice to get the best pitcher in baseball, but at the expense of a high-upside young (cheap) pitcher in Kennedy, a solid CF in Cabrera and the team's current ace, Wang.

jacksonianmarch · 10-23-2007, 12:19 PM

Melky shouldnt be a deal breaker, although I think he is a fine CFer and will only get better with age and experience.

Kennedy shouldnt be a deal breaker either. I like the kid's poise and his command, but he isnt on the level of a Santana and doesnt have the stuff to ever be on that level.

That being said, Wang IS a dealbreaker. Did he suck in the postseason, absolutely. But he has won 38 games in 2 seasons while keeping his ERA below 4. He is an innings eating groundball machine. And we saw what happens when you dont have innings eaters. Dealing Wang for Santana helps us only for October, and to be honest with you, I am worried about making the playoffs first. If we can align Santana and Wang atop the rotation, we'll hang with anybody.

Paradisecity · 10-23-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

I want a manager who is sensitive to the needs of the kids. Who wont overwork them. Who will schedule in skipped starts. This isnt Torre. Torre has a knack for "seeing what he has" early on and then going for broke until the regular season ends. That isnt the way you break in new kids. I am fine with bringing in a new manager who will be receptive to that. And if it holds us back from having another one and out in the postseason, then go ahead. The postseason isnt the goal IMO anymore. Having a renewable source of prospects and having a chance for sustained success without having to rely on aging stars is what I want. And if that takes a yr or two, then so be it.

MJ this might be the most intelligent thing I've ever read in the 4,000,000 posts i've read from you.

TheKilo · 10-23-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

Melky shouldnt be a deal breaker, although I think he is a fine CFer and will only get better with age and experience.

Kennedy shouldnt be a deal breaker either. I like the kid's poise and his command, but he isnt on the level of a Santana and doesnt have the stuff to ever be on that level.

That being said, Wang IS a dealbreaker. Did he suck in the postseason, absolutely. But he has won 38 games in 2 seasons while keeping his ERA below 4. He is an innings eating groundball machine. And we saw what happens when you dont have innings eaters. Dealing Wang for Santana helps us only for October, and to be honest with you, I am worried about making the playoffs first. If we can align Santana and Wang atop the rotation, we'll hang with anybody.

Good luck getting Santana w/o CMW, unless of course you part with JOBA

jacksonianmarch · 10-23-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Good luck getting Santana w/o CMW, unless of course you part with JOBA

I was thinking more of Cano. Joba doesnt go. Joba has better raw stuff than anyone in the game. You just dont deal that, period.

jacksonianmarch · 10-23-2007, 01:14 PM

I'd be alright with a deal centered around Cano, but they should expect another MLBer if they get him. Maybe Tabata and Horne.

26 to 6 · 10-23-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

Melky shouldnt be a deal breaker, although I think he is a fine CFer and will only get better with age and experience.

Kennedy shouldnt be a deal breaker either. I like the kid's poise and his command, but he isnt on the level of a Santana and doesnt have the stuff to ever be on that level.

That being said, Wang IS a dealbreaker. Did he suck in the postseason, absolutely. But he has won 38 games in 2 seasons while keeping his ERA below 4. He is an innings eating groundball machine. And we saw what happens when you dont have innings eaters. Dealing Wang for Santana helps us only for October, and to be honest with you, I am worried about making the playoffs first. If we can align Santana and Wang atop the rotation, we'll hang with anybody.

That is NOT a deal I would want to make.

Yes, Santana is the best pitcher in baseball right now, but considering the money he would be paid in addition to trading three young players making nothing who could play solid roles in this team. Wang and Melky already have, we've yet to see with Kennedy, but based on his starts this year I would rather hang on to him.

I'd say to Terry Ryan, "Thanks, but no thanks."

jacksonianmarch · 10-23-2007, 01:20 PM

But you have to deal something of value. They have already made their choice of which guy they are gonna shoot for retaining (rumor has it, the Twins and Hunter are very close). Santana is as good as gone. And I have a feeling they will deal him this offseason. That being said, there are only a few teams who will be in on the bidding. You figure Santana will warrant a 20mil per contract. So that in and of itself eliminates 20 teams. My worry is that we lowball the twins and then the sox trump us. I'd offer something they cannot trump without seriously hurting their team.

Cano + 2 minor leaguers (Horne and Tabata).

Ellsbury and Buchholz just dont have the resume of Cano and Cano is being billed as a potential .330 30HR guy. This is what the twins need. The only way the sox trump that is to completely wipe out their prospect bank (Buchholz, Lester, Ellsbury, +) or going to DPed or Paps which they wont move. My worry is that we offer Horne, Tabata, and another prospect and watch the sox toss Buchholz and Ellsbury and watch him, Beckett, and DMats lead the way to 4 or 5 WS championships.

AlexanderTheGreat13 · 10-23-2007, 01:38 PM

Trading Cano would be a mistake IMO. Having Cano at 2nd base gives us an advantage over alot of teams. I know Santana is an ace but to part with Cano would be a mistake ESP if A-Rod departs.

jacksonianmarch · 10-23-2007, 08:33 PM

Cano gives us an advantage over Santana? Without Cano, we depart in the ALDS this season. With Santana, we win the ALDS. Its that simple.

**schillingouttheks** · 10-23-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

Cano gives us an advantage over Santana? Without Cano, we depart in the ALDS this season. With Santana, we win the ALDS. Its that simple.

Huh? How can you do both if you're advocating the same situation for both outcomes?