Johan Santana

[scaffolds]

The Twins issues with resigning Johan Santana are well known as its the possibility of the Twins trading him this off season, but Santana isn't their only problem. The possibility of Torii Hunter coming back to Minesota are slim to none, the Twins don't have anyone to fill this big hole, in addition third base has been a hole for the Twins for years. The Twins have young RHP who are ready for the ML, but Francisco Liriano while a great prospect has had health issues, which lead us to that the Twins needs a CF, a third baseman and a left handed starting pitcher if they where to trade Santana. With the Sox resigning Lowell have those pieces and pieces that are affordable to the Twins for a few years. I am talking about a trade of Coco Crisp, Kevin Youkilis and Jon Lester to the Twins for Santana. With the Sox trading for Santana not only keep him away from the Yankees, but with a healthy Santana they will be in the W.S. in 2008 again.

[jacksonianmarch]

That wouldnt get it done. Crisp's value is not terribly high, both because of his regression on the offensive side of the ball and due to Boston's lack of need for him. You can quote all the defensive bibles in the game, nothing changes the fact that he is a light hitting, no armed, solid range CFer. Lester is a #3 starter at his best and continues to prove that he puts too many baserunners on to be a top of the rotation guy. And while Youkilis would be a desirable, he is still not a highly rated 1b due to his lack of power and the fact that he has now been away from 3b for 2 yrs makes it highly unlikely that he'd make a smooth transition back (although a move to third significantly increases his value). As has been stated before, a CFer would be a must. Also, a top rated prospect/major leaguer will need to go to the Twins as well. As I have said before, the yankees deal needs to start with either Hughes, Chamberlain or Cano and include Melky. Your deal needs to start with Pedroia, Buchholz or Papelbon (not likely) and also include Ellsbury or Crisp depending on who else is going the other way. No discounts will be had here. And knowing that the yankees and sox are involved, this one could go rather high in terms of talent going back to Minny.

[a700hitter]

Youkilis is cheap, but yet experienced, and his patient approach and high OBP would help create a lot RBI opportunities for Morneau and Mauer.

[ksushi]

That wouldnt get it done. Crisp's value is not terribly high' date=' both because of his regression on the offensive side of the ball and due to Boston's lack of need for him. You can quote all the defensive bibles in the game, nothing changes the fact that he is a light hitting, no armed, solid range CFer. [/quote']

 

If you're trying to say that Coco's season this year was nothing special and he showed nothing but some good range you need to do a little research sir. Coco surpassed some of Andruw Jones's best years defensively, and only Ichiro was a better CFer this year, but even that is debatable.

 

I'm not saying his trade value is through the roof, but I think people are underrating it a little bit because of the response he has recieved from boston fans who expected him to be the leadoff force that Damon was. Cocos defense alone is worth quite a bit. He could be worth a blue chipper, or maybe a couple of guys with some upside in the minors and a major league back-up-quality guy.

[Beckett95]

Sox options to get Santana

Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie and Jon Lester

OR

Clay Buchholz, Coco Crisp and Jed Lowrie

 

Yankees options

Robinson Cano and Phil Hughes

OR

Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Jose Tabata

 

 

i wouldnt deal ellsbury, but the Buchholz deal would be real tempting

[Matt]

I would not give up Ellsbury if I were the Red Sox either. If I were the Red Sox, I'd make that Buchholz, Crisp and Lowrie for Santana trade in a second. I don't know if those three would be enough for the Twins, though. From what I hear, they want 4 players in return for Santana (2 pitchers, a CF and an infielder). I think that the Red Sox would have to give up Buchholz, Lester, Crisp and Lowrie in order to obtain Santana, and to tell you the truth, I'd make that deal too.

[YAZMAN]

I'd do Clay Buchholz, Coco Crisp and Jed Lowrie if Santana were amenable to signing for 4/5 years.

[BSN07]

Youk,Coco, Lester and Bowden/Masterson.

 

 

I'd do that deal, I love Youk and Lester but Santana is Santana and the deal desn't involve Buccholz or Ellsbury.

 

Scaffods deal seems kind of light but makes sense...

[scaffolds]

Youk,Coco, Lester and Bowden/Masterson.

 

 

I'd do that deal, I love Youk and Lester but Santana is Santana and the deal desn't involve Buccholz or Ellsbury.

 

Scaffods deal seems kind of light but makes sense...

 

Well, if the Sox have to spice it up. the Twins needs middle infield help, how about adding Jed Lowrie to the package. So it will be Crisp, Youkilis, Lester and Lowrie for Santana.

[BSN07]

Well' date=' if the Sox have to spice it up. the Twins needs middle infield help, how about adding Jed Lowrie to the package. So it will be Crisp, Youkilis, Lester and Lowrie for Santana.[/quote']

 

Id do that deal as long as they sign him to extension, and they have a decent replacement for Youk at 1B.

[scaffolds]

Id do that deal as long as they sign him to extension' date=' and they have a decent replacement for Youk at 1B.[/quote']

 

I agree signing Santana is the key of the deal, perhaps with a window to sign him similar to the one the Sox got from Arizona in the Schillings deal. For first base a combination of Chris Carter and perhaps Doug Mientiewicz ( for defense) would work. Carter is leading the Venezuelan Winter league in hitting and his power its well known, his lack of defense its also well known, but that is the reason for Mientiewicz.

[BSN07]

Scaffolds, was Youk known for his glove in the minors Or did working with the Sox coaching staff improve his glove? If so then it could be thought that they will be able to salvage Carters glove.

[scaffolds]

Scaffolds' date=' was Youk known for his glove in the minors Or did working with the Sox coaching staff improve his glove? If so then it could be thought that they will be able to salvage Carters glove.[/quote']

 

No Youkilis was not known for defense in the minors, the Sox coaches worked with him at the ML level, but most of the credit should go to him for his hard work. As far as Carter his defense needs a lot of work, perhaps with the right coaching and hard work on his behalf he could become acceptable.

[Fried Neckbones]

I would be careful about trading away both Bucholtz and Lester on this one. If you do, the rotation for 2008 looks like:

 

Santana, Beckett, Dice, Schill, Wake

 

Good God, that's awesome. That's also not the problem. In '09, you've got:

 

Santana (assuming he signs), Beckett, Dice

 

figuring that Schill and Wake are both done after next year. Keep the young 'uns and you get:

 

Beckett, Dice, Schill, Wake, Lester/Bucholtz for '08 and

Beckett, Dice, Bucholtz, Lester for '09.

 

I'd rather have one hole to fill rather than two. Yes, Masterson might be MLB ready by that time, or he might not. If Theo & Co are committed to keeping this team both playoff contenders and cost-controlled for the long term, they don't trade both of their MLB-ready starters to get Santana.

[TheKilo]

Sox options to get Santana

Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie and Jon Lester

OR

Clay Buchholz, Coco Crisp and Jed Lowrie

 

Yankees options

Robinson Cano and Phil Hughes

OR

Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Jose Tabata

 

 

i wouldnt deal ellsbury, but the Buchholz deal would be real tempting

 

You would deal Buchholz above Ellsbury?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

One thing to keep in mind is no team will trade decent talent without being able to sign Santana to an extension which will be around 5+ years at 100 million+. So right there you can chop the number of teams interested in half, maybe more.

 

It will probably come down to the Yankees vs. Red Sox. The Yankees don't want to give up Chamberlain or Hughes just as the Red Sox don't want to give up Ellsbury or Buchholz. The difference between the two is the Red Sox can offer Jon Lester which the Yanks don't have a match. Crisp is worth more than Melky Cabrera so that helps as well. The Yankees also don't have a match of Kevin Youkilis so I'm thinking the Red Sox can offer a much better package:

 

Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Kevin Youkilis, Jed Lowrie for Johan Santana.

 

The Dodgers or Angels might be able to offer an extension for Santana but #1) it's not the Angels style #2) The Dodgers have to be looking at offense and not pitching.

 

Should be a fun developing story over the winter.

[TheKilo]

Who plays first if we trade Youkilis?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Who plays first if we trade Youkilis?

 

If he was involved in a package like I mentioned for Johan Santana...who cares

 

Chris Carter has got a more than capable bat for the pro level. Aaron Bates may not be that far away. Eventually Lars Anderson will be better than all of them. Brandon Moss has worked at 1st base before, he may be able to handle the position.

 

David Ortiz has never embarassed himself at 1st base as well. I'm not sure if Sean Casey is available (I think he is a free agent) but he's an excellent clubhouse member and a decent player at that.

 

There are options at 1st even though it may be tough to swallow in the beginning. It would be worth it for Johan Santana.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

One other guy I didn't mention as a dark horse candidate. I'm not sure if he is healthy but if he is...Mike Sweeney is still an excellent player. He was always the one bright spot in Kansas City and if healthy he fits our offensive philosophy. Gets on base at an excellent clip and has some power. Again it depends if he is healthy.

[jacksonianmarch]

One other guy I didn't mention as a dark horse candidate. I'm not sure if he is healthy but if he is...Mike Sweeney is still an excellent player. He was always the one bright spot in Kansas City and if healthy he fits our offensive philosophy. Gets on base at an excellent clip and has some power. Again it depends if he is healthy.

 

he is never healthy. And with Papi DHing, there is no spot for Sweeney.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

he is never healthy. And with Papi DHing' date=' there is no spot for Sweeney.[/quote']

 

You could always switch Sweeney and Ortiz between DH and 1B to keep them both healthy. Its just a thought....I highly doubt the Sox look at Sweeney but he was a name I found and a damn good player a couple seasons ago.

[CrespoBlows]

Casey and Santana would probably be worse than Youkilis and Buchholz.

[Taliesin]

Who plays first?

 

Correct

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Casey and Santana would probably be worse than Youkilis and Buchholz.

 

I agree but what about Youkilis and Lester.

[YAZMAN]

Jon Lester' date=' Coco Crisp, Kevin Youkilis, Jed Lowrie for Johan Santana.[/quote']

 

Just a guess, but I'm betting you don't have a kitchen sink at your place anymore.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Just a guess' date=' but I'm betting you don't have a kitchen sink at your place anymore.[/quote']

 

too much?

[Taliesin]

too much?

 

Ya think? Pitchers are notoriously fragile. He is clearly the most dominant left-handed pitcher and may be the best pitcher in baseball. I'll argue Beckett. He also has a lot of miles on that arm and showed some clear signs of slowing down last year. He's 27 but that's in dog years.

 

Fans of shiny things get distracted by the big picture. Forest meet trees. I don't think we need to do a damn thing except tweak. If Haren becomes available at a reasonable price...I'd jump, but not at the insane asking prices. The MFY's don't have the farm to offer anything reasonable for any of them unless they are willing to offer 2 of their 3.

 

I understand the arguments. I know the numbers. I also get The Game and I'm quite content w/ keeping the guys we have...trading Coco for some solid bullpen arms and adding a little bench strength. No way we trade Ellsbury. And who said earlier the 1-9 should have him at 9. He and Dusty are the 1-2 for the next 6 years. He's the leadoff hitter we've been waiting for since the dawn of time.

[YAZMAN]

too much?

 

To me it is. Youk is a Gold Glove at 1st, can play a solid 3rd in a pinch, and does a ton at the plate. He just uses up arms with the amount of pitches he sees. Crisp is arguably one of the best defensive outfielders in the AL and may still be better at the plate than he's shown. I think the thumb injury took a long time to get right and a hand injury like that is crippling to a hitter, affecting both bat head speed and bat control. Lester has proven himself to be game ready. Lowrie is great trade bait at this point despite taking it on the chin in the AFL.

 

Crisp, Lowrie, Lester or more likely Buchholz. A fourth would have to be a minor leager, IMO. I have no idea what the statisticians say on this one.

[Mr Crunchy]

tweaking is one thing

keeping johan santana out of the bronx is not tweaking

it is survival

he did have an off year but had the best whip in baseball as well as a huge year in ks and ip...

he was 15-13? something like that

i think that wrinkled old dead dick mother f***er carl pohlad may keep him until the race is decided in the central,if the twins are out on 7-30 he moves him

if theyre in it he may roll the dice.

[playjacoby46]

One thing to keep in mind is no team will trade decent talent without being able to sign Santana to an extension which will be around 5+ years at 100 million+. So right there you can chop the number of teams interested in half, maybe more.

 

It will probably come down to the Yankees vs. Red Sox. The Yankees don't want to give up Chamberlain or Hughes just as the Red Sox don't want to give up Ellsbury or Buchholz. The difference between the two is the Red Sox can offer Jon Lester which the Yanks don't have a match. Crisp is worth more than Melky Cabrera so that helps as well. The Yankees also don't have a match of Kevin Youkilis so I'm thinking the Red Sox can offer a much better package:

 

Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Kevin Youkilis, Jed Lowrie for Johan Santana.

 

The Dodgers or Angels might be able to offer an extension for Santana but #1) it's not the Angels style #2) The Dodgers have to be looking at offense and not pitching.

 

Should be a fun developing story over the winter.

 

 

i like the idea and would do the trade in a heartbeat, however, theres no way minnestoa does this trade. maybe if buchholz replaced lester in that deal they might do it. but lester is just solid right now, youk is good but not great, crisp sucks, and lowrie is unproven.