Patriots Season Game Thread - Page 59 - Talksox

**schillingouttheks** · 10-03-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inkman

The Pats do a wonderful job of assembling talent, and getting to most out of it. While the Pats don't just sign every all-star in the league, although this past off-season was as close to that as you can get in football, rooting for Brady, Moss, Harrison, Seymour, Wilfork, Stallworth, Samuel and Vrabel isn't like rooting for the Pats of 5 years ago.

I would say rooting for the Pats this year is more like rooting for the Chargers of last year. Stacked with talent.

This year's Chargers team has a lot of talent too, but Norv Turner sucks at coaching.

inkman · 10-03-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schillingouttheks

I would say rooting for the Pats this year is more like rooting for the Chargers of last year. Stacked with talent.

...but the Chargers were the up and coming team, that totally imploded against the Pats. They weren't the multiple SuperBowl winning franchise that went from the 'little team that could' to the 'we can win because we really don't cheat' rallying cry. If I were a Pats fans, I would be much less enthused about this team than any in recent memory.

Mr Crunchy · 10-03-2007, 10:04 AM

if you were a pats fan you would be giggling all the way to work or school like the entire 6 state region has been.

its a good time to be a boston sports fan,pretty much as good as it can get around here.

we have the best team in baseball and the best team in football and the celtics have somehow bullied their way back into peoples minds and are again relevant..
we have a welterweight champion from worcester and the baseball playoffs begin tonight and even political junkies have willard romney to cheer for if youre a blue blooded wealthy republican...

pats haters will suffer this season.
y'all should dwell on the spying thing,keep reminding yourself thats why the pats beat the jets,insist on having asterisks put up next to their titles because they cheated....
call the commisionars office in ny,report all the bad things they have done and how its a disgrace to the game of football that this team is allowed to go on as if nothing happened...

thats about the best its going to get for you this year.
in fact if you hate the pats that much you should avoid watching the nfl for a few years.
canadien football is a nice diversion and the nhl has already started
its good to have entertainment options.

inkman · 10-03-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Crunchy

in fact if you hate the pats that much you should avoid watching the nfl for a few years.

I feel like you are making my point for me.

**schillingouttheks** · 10-03-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inkman

I feel like you are making my point for me.

lol. The Pats were able to put together this type of team while remaining under the salary cap. Besides, this argument started because you said rooting for the Pats was like rooting for the Yanks because of the amount of talent each team has.

If you're not a Pats fan, chances are you hate them. Chances are that you hate the bandwagoners of their fanbase - and rightfully so, fairweather fans are annoying as hell. Oh, and Kilo, I know you have beef with lots of Pats fans, but the ones that you describe aren't as common in my eyes, at least.

But you at least have to respect the amount of talent on that team and what they're capable of doing this season...from a football fan's perspective and ridding yourselves of personal bias.

TheKilo · 10-03-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schillingouttheks

lol. The Pats were able to put together this type of team while remaining under the salary cap. Besides, this argument started because you said rooting for the Pats was like rooting for the Yanks because of the amount of talent each team has.

Didn't Gary Sheffield take a pay cut to play for the Yanks?

Quote:

If you're not a Pats fan, chances are you hate them. Chances are that you hate the bandwagoners of their fanbase - and rightfully so, fairweather fans are annoying as hell. Oh, and Kilo, I know you have beef with lots of Pats fans, but the ones that you describe aren't as common in my eyes, at least.

But you at least have to respect the amount of talent on that team and what they're capable of doing this season...from a football fan's perspective and ridding yourselves of personal bias.

The part I bolded is interesting to me because you say that you haven't seen any Pats fans like that, yet remove personal bias. Well, aren't you displaying some measure of personal bias due to the fact you are a fan of the team?

I despise the fact that everyone looks to the Pats as a model organization, one that everyone should strive to be. I despise the fact that Bill Belichick can get away with not shaking coaches hands, and now spying on them, without repercussion in this region simply because he's the head football coach. I despise the fact people look at Tom Brady as a model citizen yet he left his girlfriend when she was pregnant.

They have won in the past, and that's great for them, but they have become the Yankees of the NFL for the sheer sense of entitlement the organization and fanbase possess. Adalius Thomas AND Randy Moss take a paycut to play here? Gee, signing two players who are arguably top 5 at their positions doesn't affect competitive balance at all, does it?

How is this any different than big name free agents signing with the Yankees?

mtbykr · 10-03-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Didn't Gary Sheffield take a pay cut to play for the Yanks?

The part I bolded is interesting to me because you say that you haven't seen any Pats fans like that, yet remove personal bias. Well, aren't you displaying some measure of personal bias due to the fact you are a fan of the team?

I despise the fact that everyone looks to the Pats as a model organization, one that everyone should strive to be. I despise the fact that Bill Belichick can get away with not shaking coaches hands, and now spying on them, without repercussion in this region simply because he's the head football coach. .

You talk about personal bias, yet do the same thing in letting your hatred of the pats run your argument. I know you hate the pats and all they stand for, but at least let some common sense affect your view. BB was killed locally in NE as well, especially at the beginning. What happened is much like what happened with the team...the national media blew everything out of proportion to the point where the people in NE rallied around BB. (the fan-base in particular)

Quote:

I despise the fact people look at Tom Brady as a model citizen yet he left his girlfriend when she was pregnant

I don't look at him like a model citizen, but I do think he's the guy I want at QB for the pats, and couldn't be happier that he is. Just to get the facts strait he left Moynahan (apparently when he found out she pulled the goalie without telling him) and was already with Giselle when he found out Moynahan was pregnant....he didn't find out and then walk out on her.

Quote:

They have won in the past, and that's great for them, but they have become the Yankees of the NFL for the sheer sense of entitlement the organization and fan-base possess. Adalius Thomas AND Randy Moss take a pay-cut to play here? Gee, signing two players who are arguably top 5 at their positions doesn't affect competitive balance at all, does it?

2 players who are at the top of their game, sign with the pats for less....what's the problem? They signed for less because that's all the pats would pay them, because they need to be under the cap. If AD and Moss didn't want to do it, they wouldn't be here. You can't rip a team because players want to play for them.

Quote:

How is this any different than big name free agents signing with the Yankees?

Seriously? The pats have a salary cap just like everyone else in the league. (except for the broncos who cheated it during their superbowl runs, then got caught later) The pats are under the cap like everyone else...thy yanks spend more than twice what the rest of the teams do (except the sox) so they can afford to make bigger mistakes.

ORS · 10-03-2007, 02:55 PM

Sheff did not take a pay cut to sign with the Yankees. He went from $11M per with Atl, to $13M per with NY. Were there other bigger offers? Probably, but it wasn't a pay cut. Success garners respect from the players, and I can't fault teams for this happening, even the Yankees.

Beyond that, the comparison dies. The Yankees throw money at the problem. The Pats sell the organization and find value where other teams aren't willing to accept risk. Dillon and Harrison were herralded as cancers, Moss as a cancer and a quitter. These guys had serious warts, but they had serious talent too. Perhaps other teams can learn from the example the Pats set by giving these types of players a chance with a change of scenery. Or, who knows, maybe it blows up in their face with Moss or the next guy, but bringing these types of guys in and having them toe the line speaks volumes about the organizations ability to focus on the field. You have to tip your cap to them for that, because they've proven an ability to take advantage of a soft spot in the talent pool.

Then, the core of their team is built on excellent scouting and production from the late rounds in the draft. Teams throw 4th-7th round draft picks around like funny money, and that is where the Pats made hay.

They are reviled because they are successful, but in reality, success is the only thing they share with the Yankees.

See Red · 10-03-2007, 04:42 PM

You have to be smart with which headcases you bring in. Dillon would've been happy anywhere outside of Cincinnati as long as the team competed. Randy Moss has always been an issue, but what happened in Oakland was a result of losing -- he's always had problems and I trust he always will but when he's happy, his production overshadows that.

The Broncos, on the other hand, when they brought Darryl Gardener in a few years ago... disaster.

inkman · 10-03-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

Teams throw 4th-7th round draft picks around like funny money, and that is where the Pats made hay.

Brady - 6th round
Marony - 1st round
Moss - trade - former 1st rounder
Stallworth - FA - former 1st rounder
Ben Watson - 1st round
Matt Light - 2nd round
Logan Mankins - 1st round
Dan Koppen - 3rd round
Stephen Neal - UDFA
Nick Kaczur - 3rd round

Ty Warren - 1st round
Vince Wilfork - 1st round
Richard Seymour - 1st round
Mike Vrabel - UFA - former 3rd rounder
Ted Bruschi - 3rd rounder
Adalius Thomas - UFA - former 6th rounder
Rosie Colvin - UFA - former 4th rounder
Asante Samuel - 4th rounder
Ellis Hobbs - 3rd rounder
Rodney Harrison - UFA - former 5th rounder
Eugene Wilson - 2nd rounder

I ain't buying what you are selling. Brady and Neal were finds, but nobody knew what the Pats had with Brady. Kinda lucked into that one. Patriot teams of a few years ago, maybe made more hay later in the draft but this current crop of players are doing what thay are supposed to. First day players, and especially first rounders, should be your starters.

See Red · 10-03-2007, 05:07 PM

I agree, I don't think the Patriots had any idea what they were getting when they drafted Brady. I do think they lucked into it a great deal... but that's not anything against their front office or team. They had to see something in him.

**schillingouttheks** · 10-03-2007, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

The part I bolded is interesting to me because you say that you haven't seen any Pats fans like that, yet remove personal bias. Well, aren't you displaying some measure of personal bias due to the fact you are a fan of the team?

I said that those types of fans aren't as common to me, not that I haven't seen any. I know they're out there. Maybe it's because the people that I've surrounded myself with were fans since before the team started being successful. Not sure.

Oh, and I apologize about that last part. I didn't mean to say "you" as if I was addressing you in particular. I just meant "you" referring to people in general. I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about the personal bias removal. I'm a fan, yes, but I think I'm also pretty good at being objective (keep in mind that it seemed like I was the only Pats fan that took the Colts as a serious threat last year in the playoffs ... we know how that went). I just meant that whether you're a fan of the team or not, you still have to give them credit for what they've been able to accomplish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

I despise the fact that everyone looks to the Pats as a model organization, one that everyone should strive to be. I despise the fact that Bill Belichick can get away with not shaking coaches hands, and now spying on them, without repercussion in this region simply because he's the head football coach. I despise the fact people look at Tom Brady as a model citizen yet he left his girlfriend when she was pregnant.

No argument here. You have a right to your opinion; it happens to be one that a lot of people agree with. The only thing though is that Brady didn't walk out on her when she was pregnant. I'm pretty sure he found out after he was with Giselle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

They have won in the past, and that's great for them, but they have become the Yankees of the NFL for the sheer sense of entitlement the organization and fanbase possess. Adalius Thomas AND Randy Moss take a paycut to play here? Gee, signing two players who are arguably top 5 at their positions doesn't affect competitive balance at all, does it?

Fair enough. Didn't think of that. But players won't take paycuts to play with the Yankees because they don't have to. Baseball players get paid so ridiculously that they could find a comfortable home elsewhere if New York wanted them to take a paycut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

How is this any different than big name free agents signing with the Yankees?

Eh, I'd say it's a bit different. My thoughts have already been covered by other posters I guess.

ORS · 10-03-2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inkman

I ain't buying what you are selling. Brady and Neal were finds, but nobody knew what the Pats had with Brady. Kinda lucked into that one. Patriot teams of a few years ago, maybe made more hay later in the draft but this current crop of players are doing what thay are supposed to. First day players, and especially first rounders, should be your starters.

Sorry, I should have clarified that. I meant that they got good on middle to late round picks. And, it's not like the point doesn't hold. They are doing something right with the success rate of their picks. Look at most teams' first day picks from the last few years and you won't see as many contributing.

See Red · 10-03-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

Sorry, I should have clarified that. I meant that they got good on middle to late round picks. And, it's not like the point doesn't hold. They are doing something right with the success rate of their picks. Look at most teams' first day picks from the last few years and you won't see as many contributing.

It's the truth... with a first day success rate like the Patriots have had, it's hard to argue that it's luck. Few organizations have that much first day success. Fortunately, my Broncos are one of the teams that tend to have success in the draft, and they've certainly sucked at selecting WR's, aside from Brandon Marshall.

In the later rounds you have to get a little lucky sometimes unless you know something that nobody else does. If Tom Brady had shown capable of becoming what he has become, he wouldn't have fallen so far... believe that. So they certainly got lucky but they're not blindfolding themselves, tacking names up on the wall, and throwing darts at them to determine who they pick... you don't draft someone unless you think they could potentially fit onto your team somewhere.

inkman · 10-03-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Red Seat

Sorry, I should have clarified that. I meant that they got good on middle to late round picks. And, it's not like the point doesn't hold. They are doing something right with the success rate of their picks. Look at most teams' first day picks from the last few years and you won't see as many contributing.

You mean like my Bills.