Rank the pitchers - Page 2 - Talksox

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 02:13 AM

I continue to think that Hughes is better than Buchholz. I dont see how that is so unrealistic. Just because the kid threw one no hitter in his rookie season doesnt mean he is gonna be better than Hughes. Bud Smith says hi.

yankeessuck013 · 12-11-2007, 02:21 AM

Hughes AND Chamberlain? Chamberlain will be a starter, what has he done in the majors as a SP? Nada. Justify that.

How do you justify putting Kennedy ahead of Lester too? Kennedy just doesn't impress me at all.

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 02:22 AM

And that isnt a slight to Buchholz. I think he'll be a fantastic pitcher. But I just think that Hughes will persevere and be the better pitcher over the long haul. Hughes was in the process of doing the same thing Buch was doing in his second start, except his hammy went snap. It took a long time to get back, but once he finally did and got on track (September and on into the playoffs) he was 4-0 with a 2.55ERA. Thats pretty damn good right down to crunch time.

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeessuck013

Hughes AND Chamberlain? Chamberlain will be a starter, what has he done in the majors as a SP? Nada. Justify that.

How do you justify putting Kennedy ahead of Lester too? Kennedy just doesn't impress me at all.

Ranking the pitchers it says. And he prefaced it by saying that this is for now and the future. I dont think any of you guys would disagree with the statement that Joba has the best pure stuff of any of the guys on the list. If that is the case and he was a starter for most of the season last yr, I dont think it is outlandish to think he will have the most success. Plus, it isnt like he has great stuff but cannot locate. The kid can locate all of his pitches, so therefore, I have a feeling he will have the better career of the fab 7.

In terms of Kennedy over Lester, I am basing that one off Kennedy's control and Lester's complete lack of it. Also, in comparing both MiLB #s and MLB #s it isnt even close between the two. Lester has the better curveball and the harder FB, but Kennedy locates the FB better and has the deeper, more sound arsenal. Plus, Lester has allowed nearly a walk per 2 innings, that is absolutely abysmal, and the only reason why he hasnt been crucified to this point is luck. He has been one hit away from having innings explode on him.

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 02:45 AM

If you actually want to rank further, there is another argument you can use...
(Sox list taken from sox prospects.com. I added Lester in behind Buchholz simply because I think that is where he'd slate if he were to be ranked).

The 25 and under AA and above group
Head to Head
1. Buchholz vs Joba
2. Lester vs Hughes
3. Masterson vs Kennedy
4. Bowden vs Horne
5. Hansen vs Sanchez
6. Pauley vs Marquez
7. McCutchen
8. White
9. Cox
10. Whelan
11. Robertson

(Brackman was unrated due to the fact that PP never rates players they have not seen play, but I threw him in as the #3 A+ level and under pitcher)
The A+ and below group
1. Hagadone vs Betances
2. Johnson vs Garcia
3. Richardson vs Brackman
4. Bard vs Heredia
5. Britton vs Nova
6. Jones vs Kontos
7. Mills vs Pope
8. Cox vs Tejeda
9. Clay vs McCallister
10. Huntzinger vs Dunn
11. Bailey vs Reyes
12. Province vs Barreda
13. Pimental vs Wordekemper

TheKilo · 12-11-2007, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

And that isnt a slight to Buchholz. I think he'll be a fantastic pitcher. But I just think that Hughes will persevere and be the better pitcher over the long haul. Hughes was in the process of doing the same thing Buch was doing in his second start, except his hammy went snap. It took a long time to get back, but once he finally did and got on track (September and on into the playoffs) he was 4-0 with a 2.55ERA. Thats pretty damn good right down to crunch time.

Hughes went over six innings exactly twice all season.

And Jacko, you do know that wins may be one of the worst stats to gauge a pitcher's effectiveness?

TheKilo · 12-11-2007, 03:10 AM

I'd really like to see Joba face lineups more than one time through as well. I cannot really remember ANY slider thrown for a strike by the guy, but let's be generous and say he throws 20% of them for strikes. His other pitches aren't as good yet and I really think hitters will adjust accordingly the 2nd, 3rd times through.

TheKilo · 12-11-2007, 03:14 AM

Jon Lester - 203 walks in 484 MiLB innings - One walk every 2.38 innings, or 2 1/3 innings.

Ian Kennedy - 52 walks in 149.1 MiLB innings - One walk ever 2.87 innings, 2 2/3 innings.

Man, huge difference there.

ksushi · 12-11-2007, 05:41 AM

Easy on the triple postage.

And, I don't think that the hype around Buchholz stems solely from the no hitter. Thats unfair. He has fantastic stuff and poise, the only flaw in his game seems to be fastball command, but its not a major issue since he is pretty pin point with his offspeed stuff so when he speeds you up, the location of the fastball doesn't need to be as precise.

riverside sluggers · 12-11-2007, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gom

Yankees: Hughes, Kennedy, Chamberlain
Red Sox: Buchholz, Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen

How would you guys rank them, one through seven? For not only next year, but for their careers?

I'm curious as to your opinions. Let's hear them folks.

If we're comparing starting pitching prospects-- Might as well replace Hansen & Delcarmen with Masterson & Bowden

bosoxnation07 · 12-11-2007, 09:57 AM

Hughes-Buccholz= Draw at this point in time...
Chamberlin- Great RP outtings last yr, lets see him as a SP 1st= ?(could end up being like Papelbon)
Lester-Kennedy= Lester has been wilder, but had success, and won a cliching WS game= Lester.
Delcarmen- Looks to be a solid set up guy.

Everyone else has little to no experience in the ML, so lets just see what they bring when given the chance.

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 12:07 PM

The comparison of Chamberlain and Papelbon is a tough one. Papelbon has had more MLB success while Chamberlain has the deeper overall arsenal. Also, as a starter, Papelbon sat more low 90s, while Chamberlain in AA and A+ ball was sitting 95-97. This is why I think Joba profiles more as a starter since he has 2 plus plus pitches and 2 other pitches that actually profile as plus MLB pitches.

Lester has had more success? Yeah, he won the WS clinching game, but it was game 4 of a sweep and the Rox were essentially dead in the water. Other than that, Lester has been absolutely awful. If you consider 4.5 BB per 9 and a 1.5WHIP for his MLB career success, then I dont know if there is a potential way to convince you otherwise.

I cannot argue with anyone who thinks Hughes and Buchholz are a tie. I think it is ever so close as well and they do have rather similar styles.

And I would actually say that given the right opportunity, Delcarmen profiles as a closer rather than a setup guy. He was impressive last yr.

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Hughes went over six innings exactly twice all season.

And Jacko, you do know that wins may be one of the worst stats to gauge a pitcher's effectiveness?

hence why I included ERA. His WHIP was also around 1 in that stretch too.

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Jon Lester - 203 walks in 484 MiLB innings - One walk every 2.38 innings, or 2 1/3 innings.

Ian Kennedy - 52 walks in 149.1 MiLB innings - One walk ever 2.87 innings, 2 2/3 innings.

Man, huge difference there.

So 0.6BB per 9IP is not a difference? Not to mention the difference in K/9, H/9 and WHIP, but lets just call them equal, shall we?

jacksonianmarch · 12-11-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Hughes went over six innings exactly twice all season.

And Jacko, you do know that wins may be one of the worst stats to gauge a pitcher's effectiveness?

Hughes did go over 6IP twice, you are correct. Remind me who our manager was again? I seem to be having a senior moment.