Bay vs. Holliday - Page 3 - Talksox

TheKilo · 10-13-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

It'd be unlikely. You're overselling your point at "no way" though.

List some type A free agents who signed with their teams within the exclusive period. I'll wait.

Dojji · 10-13-2009, 10:37 PM

Lowell, Mike.
Rodriguez, Alex

TheKilo · 10-13-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

Lowell, Mike.
Rodriguez, Alex

Mike Lowell re-signed November 20, 2007. Past the 10 day exclusive period. He filed for free agency.

Alex Rodriguez re-signed November 15, 2007. Past the 10-day exclusive period.

Dojji · 10-13-2009, 10:43 PM

Even so, the groundwork for those deals was clearly laid during the exclusive peroid.

Dipre · 10-13-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

Even so, the groundwork for those deals was clearly laid during the exclusive peroid.

So?

A deal isn't finalized until it's official.

Stop making shit up to back up an argument with no merit, for the love of Jesus.

TheKilo · 10-13-2009, 10:52 PM

Stop moving the goalposts.

Dojji · 10-13-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Stop moving the goalposts.

A player doesn't make a multi-year commitment on a whim. If any FA were to sign within a week of the exclusive period, it'd be pretty good evidence the signing team had talked pretty fast during the time they had exclusive access to his ear

example1 · 10-14-2009, 12:50 AM

The Red Sox are going to be as selective with Bay as he is about resigning with them. Again, they got Bay because they COULD, not because they really, really wanted to. I bet they would give Bay a B+ as an overall player, Holliday an A-, and Manny an A (salary and attitude aside).

If they have to pay Holliday close to Teixeira money (eventually touching 20m a year) I'd be okay with it, if the deal is short enough. He really has had great numbers. They are often disregaded because of COL, but he gets on base better, strikes out a hell of a lot less, and has a higher OPS. His .318 career AVG speaks to his ability to make contact and be aggressive at the plate, and those things all give him a minor (but significant) advantage over Bay. If you're buying the luxary car you want all the bells and whistles, not just most of them. Free Agency is the one chance the Sox have to get the players they want, not the generic version.

I agree with Kilo that there's a high risk of Boras dicking the Sox around, but not if they can get it to the point where there's an AAV on the table. If they can get there it is worth just sealing the deal and moving forward. Two years ago I would have hand picked Holliday as a replacement for Manny or Ortiz. Now he's available. There's too many reasons not to just fork out the money and do it.

BSN07 · 10-14-2009, 08:50 AM

Trevor Hoffman, just playing devil's advocate

I agree with Dipre and Kilo on this one.

exp1 makes a great poinst about Holliday vs Bay that I am in agreement with. I remember when I first joined that one of my first "wishlist" type of post was a trade for Matt Holliday. Might have been around the same time as the Helton rumors. And like exp1 said, he is available. I think the Sox really make a strong push for him.

I think they offered Bay deals that they ultimately knew he would reject. And if he didn't they would be getting him on the cheap so to speak, so it was ok. It's like they were prepping their plan B in case plan A(Holliday) blows up in their faces.

Dojji · 10-14-2009, 09:29 AM

This is foolishness. Holliday is a great left fielder no doubt, and would be a tremendous asset to the team, but you guys are seriously selling out to the greener grass on the other side of the hill.

Jason Bay is a consistent 30+ HR hitter year in, year out. He and Holliday have the same career high in HR's, but Bay has the second, fourth, and fifth most HR's in a season between them and has crossed the 30 HR threshhold two more times than Holliday has in a career track that has been as close to comparable as you're likely to get with two ballplayers.

Holliday is a good OPS hitter, but does not have that kind of raw power on his resume. Other than the truly awesome year in 2007, he's a slightly better offensive version of Kevin Youkilis, and I'm not sure what kind of "true #4 hitter" that makes him. (actually over the last 2 years I'd give the edge to Youkilis)

Also, this year Jason Bay had a slightly higher OPS than Holliday, in a tougher division. You lose practically nothing if you "settle" for Bay over Holliday.

I understand the sexiness of Holliday's batting average and his slightly higher OBP does make a difference, but what we're looking for is specifically a home run hitter. Both Bay and Holliday would serve more than adequately next year if called upon to do so and there are great arguments to go for either guy. Bay does NOT take a back seat to Holliday. He just has a different skillset.

Finally I'd like to point out that while Bay hit .267 this year he's a career .280 hitter. He's not THAT vulnerable. Even with that, he hit for more raw power than Holliday and got on base about as much.

I can't imagine that the team has done anything like stiffed or disrespected Bay when there's every possibility that he becomes the best remaining option on the market at some point in the offseason. If they did, it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Dipre · 10-14-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

This is foolishness. Holliday is a great left fielder no doubt, and would be a tremendous asset to the team, but you guys are seriously selling out to the greener grass on the other side of the hill.

Jason Bay is a consistent 30+ HR hitter year in, year out. He and Holliday have the same career high in HR's, but Bay has the second, fourth, and fifth most HR's in a season between them and has crossed the 30 HR threshhold two more times than Holliday has in a career track that has been as close to comparable as you're likely to get with two ballplayers.

Holliday is a good OPS hitter, but does not have that kind of raw power on his resume. Other than the truly awesome year in 2007, he's a slightly better offensive version of Kevin Youkilis, and I'm not sure what kind of "true #4 hitter" that makes him. (actually over the last 2 years I'd give the edge to Youkilis)

Also, this year Jason Bay had a slightly higher OPS than Holliday, in a tougher division. You lose practically nothing if you "settle" for Bay over Holliday.

I understand the sexiness of Holliday's batting average and his slightly higher OBP does make a difference, but what we're looking for is specifically a home run hitter. Both Bay and Holliday would serve more than adequately next year if called upon to do so and there are great arguments to go for either guy. Bay does NOT take a back seat to Holliday. He just has a different skillset.

Finally I'd like to point out that while Bay hit .267 this year he's a career .280 hitter. He's not THAT vulnerable. Even with that, he hit for more raw power than Holliday and got on base about as much.

I can't imagine that the team has done anything like stiffed or disrespected Bay when there's every possibility that he becomes the best remaining option on the market at some point in the offseason. If they did, it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

162 K's.

Not that vulnerable my ass.

And let's not mention his defense in left please.

Dojji · 10-14-2009, 10:14 AM

It's a rare power hitter that doesn't strike out a lot. Comes with the swing. Even Holliday struck out 100 times. If a guy's getting on base well and hitting for power, I tend to ignore strikeouts.

Dipre · 10-14-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

It's a rare power hitter that doesn't strike out a lot. Comes with the swing. Even Holliday struck out 100 times. If a guy's getting on base well and hitting for power, I tend to ignore strikeouts.

Of course you do.

It helps your argument.

And just for the record, there is an enormous difference between 162 and 101 strikeouts.

Just sayin'

Dojji · 10-14-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dipre

Of course you do.

It helps your argument.

And just for the record, there is an enormous difference between 162 and 101 strikeouts.

Just sayin'

Couse. Just like there's an enormous difference between 36 HR's and 24.

Holliday would not lead this team in home runs.

He would not be second on this team in home runs.

He might not even be third.

Just. Sayin'.

Dipre · 10-14-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

Couse. Just like there's an enormous difference between 36 HR's and 24.

Holliday would not lead this team in home runs.

He would not be second on this team in home runs.

He might not even be third.

Just. Sayin'.

O Rly?

As usual, you ignore obvious factors like his time in Oakland to fuel your baseless arguments.

Typical.