V-Mart's future in Boston past 2010?

[callandor1000]

We're talking really breaking the bank and on a position that eats players. What is the guarantee that Mauer won't break down? I mean, we're talking setting a payroll precedent at the catcher position? I just don't think its intelligent. It's perhaps the only position that I think it would be better in just about every scenario to develop at than to shell out a giant contract. I'm not afraid of spending money, I'm afraid of spending money on that particular position.

[jacksonianmarch]

Originally Posted by Dipre

He loses some value. Not as much as you'd think given his defensive struggles at the 2 position.

As a catcher, he's top 5 in the game offensively. As a 1b, his OPS would rank behind....

Kevin Youkilis
Mark Teixeira
Carlos Pena
Albert Pujols
Prince Fielder
Joey Votto
Derrek Lee
Adrian Gonzalez
Miguel Cabrera
Ryan Howard
Kendry Morales
Lance Berkman
Todd Helton
Justin Morneau
Russell Branyan

He's have been 16th in the game out of 30 teams, which is average.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

As a catcher, he's top 5 in the game offensively. As a 1b, his OPS would rank behind....

Kevin Youkilis
Mark Teixeira
Carlos Pena
Albert Pujols
Prince Fielder
Joey Votto
Derrek Lee
Adrian Gonzalez
Miguel Cabrera
Ryan Howard
Kendry Morales
Lance Berkman
Todd Helton
Justin Morneau
Russell Branyan

He's have been 16th in the game out of 30 teams, which is average.

I don't know if you know this, but the C position is a defense-first position.

Instead of stating the obvious, how about this:

How much value do you think below-average defense substracts value from a catcher when compared to other positions?

[jacksonianmarch]

I think that a guy who plays defense enough to handle the position, which a guy like Martinez or Posada or other defensively challenged catchers do can make up for it with their offense. Martinez as a catcher is worth a TON more than as a 1b. Now, there are some guys who are so bad defensively that keeping them in the game hurts more than any offensive explosion. Martinez isnt that guy. He's bad behind the dish. But his bat more than makes up for it, and it replaces a black hole that was in the lineup for so long in Vtek.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

I think that a guy who plays defense enough to handle the position, which a guy like Martinez or Posada or other defensively challenged catchers do can make up for it with their offense. Martinez as a catcher is worth a TON more than as a 1b. Now, there are some guys who are so bad defensively that keeping them in the game hurts more than any offensive explosion. Martinez isnt that guy. He's bad behind the dish. But his bat more than makes up for it, and it replaces a black hole that was in the lineup for so long in Vtek.

You need to read.

What was stated was that Martinez "Loses all his value" as a 1B.

What i was trying to convey was that even though much more valuable as a catcher, he doesn't lose all his value as a 1B because not only can he still hit, but he's not a defensive wizard behind the plate.

[jacksonianmarch]

Those stupid little jabs are the reason why you incite so much garbage on this site. Keep that in mind

In terms of Martinez, it depends on what kind of value you are talking about. As a 1b, he becomes pedestrian, middle of the pack. His worth plummets. He doesn't lose all his value. But he loses enough to make him much less desireable and much less useful. He would actually make the sox 1b position worse than it was the prior yr. This is what people are talking about.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch

Those stupid little jabs are the reason why you incite so much garbage on this site. Keep that in mind

In terms of Martinez, it depends on what kind of value you are talking about. As a 1b, he becomes pedestrian, middle of the pack. His worth plummets. He doesn't lose all his value. But he loses enough to make him much less desireable and much less useful. He would actually make the sox 1b position worse than it was the prior yr. This is what people are talking about.

Actually, Einstein, i wasn't being sarcastic. I was literally asking you to read. Before you run your mouth and end up wasting my time making me read the obvious, please read what was said before coming up with your attempts at showing intellectual superiority. Which is the reason why everyone here thinks you're full of hot air and takes 99% of what you post as biased garbage. Keep that in mind.

[Dojji]

I don't know how well UZR/150 works for catchers, but Martinez' is only -1.7 or so. Pretty much dead average or only slightly below.

Fangraphs' "value" rating shows him at 25.8 with his bat, and -0.3 with his glove. In other words, a great hitter and an average defender as a catcher but the not-exactly-excellent defense isn' enough of a problem to overwhelm his offensive value -- yet.

That said, he obviously doesn't have far to dceline before he's clearly below average. But for now, he's not defeisnvely "bad" so much as merely "not as good as the premium defensive catchers."

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by Dojji

I don't know how well UZR/150 works for catchers, but Martinez' is only -1.7 or so. Pretty much dead average or only slightly below.

Fangraphs' "value" rating shows him at 25.8 with his bat, and -0.3 with his glove. In other words, a great hitter and an average defender as a catcher but the not-exactly-excellent defense isn' enough of a problem to overwhelm his offensive value -- yet.

That said, he obviously doesn't have far to dceline before he's clearly below average. But for now, he's not defeisnvely "bad" so much as merely "not as good as the premium defensive catchers."

The problem is his arm, which UZR doesn't account for.

You and i could steal from V-Mart with ease, and not being able to control the running game hits a catcher's defensive value particularly hard.

[Dojji]

Just last year (2008) Martinez threw out 30% of steal attempts. He did the same in 2007.

He had a bad year this year, but one bad year is exactly what it is, so I'm going to hold out hope that he can bounce back to his career averages, which are a low-but-acceptable 24%..

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by Dojji

Just last year (2008) Martinez threw out 30% of steal attempts. He did the same in 2007.

He had a bad year this year, but one bad year is exactly what it is, so I'm going to hold out hope that he can bounce back to his career averages, which are a low-but-acceptable 24%..

You have to take into consideration that V-Mart's CS% doesn't tell the whole story. He catches a lot of "Cheap" base-stealers, or guys who really don't run well but try to take bases off of him because they don't respect his arm. When teams run a lot on a catcher, you know it's because his arm is well below average.

For comparison's sake, over his career, there have been 816 SB attempts against Jorge Posada, who's been in the league since 1995.

Over V-Mart's career, which started in 2002, there have been 611 SB attempts with him behind the plate. He's simply awful at preventing the stolen base, and the fact that teams run a lot on him demonstrates it.

[Dojji]

You know me, I've wanted a good cannon arm behind the plate for awhile, but when I campaigned for the team to bring in an available catcher with a great arm (Johjima) you guys suddenly found that other issues about what makes a good catcher were much more important than how they control the running game.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by Dojji

You know me, I've wanted a good cannon arm behind the plate for awhile, but when I campaigned for the team to bring in an available catcher with a great arm (Johjima) you guys suddenly found that other issues about what makes a good catcher were much more important than how they control the running game.

Remember that a lot of people said afterwards, that they were just busting your balls about the Johjima deal, however, my point isn't that V-Mart is a terrible option, but that he's not a long-term solution at C, given his fringe defensive skills.

[Dojji]

Fair enough. Me I haven't given up on Mauer yet.

[Dipre]

Originally Posted by Dojji

Fair enough. Me I haven't given up on Mauer yet.

I think he stays a Twin though.