Who would you take Part II? Cano or Pedroia?

[TheKilo]

Gom - Your strawmen get old after a while. When did I say watching the games don't mean anything? All I'm saying is statistics mean just as much, something you don't believe.

[soxfan17881]

I take Pedroia. Sure, I'm a fan, but I have some reasoning other than that...

Pedroia is impressive defensively. Right now, we need Pedroia's super-consistency at the plate. I'll admit that I don't watch the Yankees very much at all, but I get the impression that Pedroia is quite the clubhouse guy, helping everyone stay light, but still a cheerleader when he needs to be.

Now, if this were a video game, my last piece of reasoning wouldn't matter, but it isn't. The idea that Sox Fans have that little bit of history with Peds (i.e. the W.S. and his lead-off homer) factors in when you find the two guys more or less tied after looking at all the other factors. Now, I suppose that makes me a romatic, and probably a baseball fool, but so be it.

[Gom]

Exactly. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with using ONLY statistical analysis when looking at players?

Originally Posted by TheKilo

Gom - Your strawmen get old after a while. When did I say watching the games don't mean anything? All I'm saying is statistics mean just as much, something you don't believe.

You're wrong Kilo. I think statistics are MORE important than the naked eye. However, I think watching the players is huge as well. I believe a healthy mix, maybe say...60/40 in favor of statistical analysis is probably the way to go.

My thing is basically this: Statistics, especially in the minors and when a player is first called up, is basically meaningless. You use the naked eye to determine someone's potential worth. The more statistics you accumulate on a player, the more meaningful statistics become and eventually overtake the naked eye in analysis at the major league level. My opinion here.

[TheKilo]

Originally Posted by Gom

Exactly. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with using ONLY statistical analysis when looking at players?

You're wrong Kilo. I think statistics are MORE important than the naked eye. However, I think watching the players is huge as well. I believe a healthy mix, maybe say...60/40 in favor of statistical analysis is probably the way to go.

My thing is basically this: Statistics, especially in the minors and when a player is first called up, is basically meaningless. You use the naked eye to determine someone's potential worth. The more statistics you accumulate on a player, the more meaningful statistics become and eventually overtake the naked eye in analysis at the major league level. My opinion here.

I actually agree with you, although there are times when minor league statistics are appropriate (take Pedroia for example - he always had an adjust period at every level he played at before being called up to the next, which was why I was not concerned when he struggled to start last season). But statistics are important - and show a lot when comparing Pedroia and Cano this season.

[Mr Crunchy]

WARNIG OLD SCHOOL POST
watching certain guys on the field in certain situations gives you a feel about heart character and desire,something the stat sheets dont account for.
i never played competetive ball after babe ruth because i wasnt good enuff for my high school,i did play football and my senior class lost 2 games in 3 years,as a senior i dont think i played in the 4th quarter until thanksgiving day when the coaches gave us seniors our last hurrah so to speak,we were that fucking good i never saw much action after halftime...the point here is some guys are born with fire and a win at all costs mentality,others are brilliantly gifted and are blessed with good fortune and yet others just dont give a shit about anything outside their personal efforts and winning isnt as important as their performance is...those who played at any level know all 3 types....
winning easily and often tends to make us soft by nature,not all of us but most of us get soft with too much success..in the nfl more than any other sport you see vets sign on for less money for a shot at the ring,they come in burning with desire and it usually rubs off on the other guys who play on the same side of the ball,the 49ers would grab up a gary plummer,the pats grabbed up corey dillon and rodney harris and perhaps this year john lynch...if last years game was rodneys 1st superbowl do you think he allows that miracle catch or would the d lineman(seymour or warren) allow eli to escape a sure sack or would hobbs or samuel drop these gift wrapped picks that my 11 yr old daughter wouldve grabbed?..sometimes new blood,not nessesarily the best at the position but a guy with a good attitude who is into the team concept is more of an asset than the superstar who cant wait to get into the lockerroom so he can bitch to his agent about his schedule conflicts and endorsement deals..
are the yanks old guys bloated and content?
are our guys in the same frame of mind?
i lost my very last game of football at WPI to leominster in the superbowl in 3ots cause our all state back fumbled a routine handoff....25 years later i still shake my head and wonder why and how it happened after 20 straight wins....and its amongst the most painfull memories i have and it aint going away,this is high school mind you,if it was the world series or the pennant or the super bowl i may have donnie moored myself....new blood with burnin desire to win is essential for every team to keep its fire,i dont think ny has enuff of it anymore and after 4 titles in 5 years i can see why it happened,meanwhile arod has 250m in the bank...think he really gives a fuck?

[example1]

I took Pedroia last year, and I'm taking him still. Of course, I expected more out of Cano than I've seen this season, but he will still have a great career.

Pedroia OWNS 2B at Fenway and will likely be there for a long, long time. Different personalities, dispositions and fielding positions, but Pedroia is an invaluable member of a big market team who constantly shows the right approach on the field and seems to really help his team win; a la Derek Jeter.

====

I see a lot of discussion about what happened to the Yankees.

The way I see it, the Yankees haven't kept up with the Red Sox because the Sox:

a) theorized better--having a game plan and sticking to it (acquire draft picks by letting middle-aged players go, draft power arms, train to OBP and plate control, generally use more money to sign players above slot in the draft, all relievers pitch from the stretch, etc.,)

b) scouted better--scouting opponents, scouting draftees, scouting internationally, developing international resources (training facilities in DR, relationship with Seibu Lions) finding talent for above slot draft.

c) signed/released players more strictly-- the Sox have a HUGE baseball budget every year, but they treated every dollar with high scrutiny. Not every move was perfect, but many of the most difficult proved to be good. They are patient and meticulous; an interesting parallel to the approach they expect of their hitters. Acquiring Beckett and Dice-K have been really beneficial and were pivotal for this franchise even though they gave up a lot to get them.

d) had luck bordering on dynastic: even with all the draft picks it seems really lucky that so many of them are panning out as they are. Groups of guys like Papelbon, Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Lowry, Buchholz, and Masterson (totaling roughly $6,105,500,--from Cot's) dont' come around that often.

The luck is a huge thing, but the Sox put themselves in the position where that luck can make them great. It may make Yankee fans to feel good that the Sox are as good as theya re because of the luck, but getting guys like Jeter and Mariano were what put the Yankees over the top for years and years.

[Gom]

Example....Ellsbury, Lowrie, Buchholz, and Masterson have been non-factors for the most part.

The Yankees haven't kept up to the Red Sox for the main reason of...

Cashman being an idiot.

All else is secondary.

[CrespoBlows]

Originally Posted by Gom

Example....Ellsbury, Lowrie, Buchholz, and Masterson have been non-factors for the most part.

Buchholz, maybe. (Although he pitched good early.)

Ellsbury has played GG defense in CF, and was playing very good the first few months of the season. He's also off to a good start in August.

Lowrie has been excellent in his SSS, and has replaced Lugo at SS.

Masterson held the fifth starter role down exceptionally, and is the third pitcher in line in the bullpen.

[example1]

Originally Posted by Gom

Example....Ellsbury, Lowrie, Buchholz, and Masterson have been non-factors for the most part.

The Yankees haven't kept up to the Red Sox for the main reason of...

Cashman being an idiot.

All else is secondary.

How about 'The Red Sox FO being good?'

[Mr Crunchy]

lots of luck involved as well
consider none of these young guys ever got hurt
just like billy beane in oakland,his pitchers dont get hurt till they leave oakland

[BoSox21]

Originally Posted by Mr Crunchy

just like billy beane in oakland,his pitchers dont get hurt till they leave oakland

Rich Harden says hi

[riverside sluggers]

Ellsbury a non factor? Him taking over center field in the playoffs was just plain huge. He was in a recent slump yes but in August he's come back strong batting .379

Lowrie has been a key catalyst for the top scoring team in the month of August (18 RBIs) and could hold down the shortstop position for the forseeable future

Masterson has really stepped up into being part of the bridge to get to Papelbon

Buchholz needs some fine tuning, 2009 is looking like a bounce back year as ever

[Mr Crunchy]

rich harden has had issues but out of all his draft pix i dont consider hardens time on the dl to be anything but a blip on the screen...consider mulder hudson and zito and their success in oakland and lack there of when they were dumped...luck is a vital instrument in the success of developing pitchers..

[TheKilo]

Update:

Player	AVG.	OBP	SLG	OPS	HR	RBI	WS	RC
Cano	.269	.305	.411	.716	13	61	10	54
Pedroia	.333	.378	.505	.883	17	76	18	98

EQA:
Pedroia - .302
Cano - .246

VORP:
Pedroia - 58.5
Cano - 7.2

WARP1/WARP2/WARP3:

Pedroia: 8.6/9.1/10.2
Cano: 4.9/5.2/5.8