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Thread: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

  1. #31

    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    They both suck
    Hal sucks

  2. #32
    Deity BSN07's Avatar
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    Quote Originally Posted by DipreG;423856;
    I've been stressing the fact that the way pitches work Ellsbury when he's batting first negatively affects his ability to draw walks, and his production batting 7th in the order justifies my theory.
    Forgive me for not seeing this. But if this is the case, we are on the same page:thumbsup:

  3. #33
    Fight the Hate Dojji's Avatar
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    Ellsbury's actually gut his SLG up over .400 thanks in large part to those two triples the other day.

    Ellsbury and Gardner are actually having pretty similar years. Ellsbury has slightly more power and makes better contact, Gardner walks more and strikes out more. Ellsbury has the advantage in overall stolen bases, Gardner has a better SB%.

    Just one more point of rivalry between the Sox and Yankees I guess, who has the better speedy leadoff type.

  4. #34

    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    I wouldnt say Ellsbury is faster at all. Right now, he is the better basestealer, but in simple footspeed, Gardner is one of the fastest guys the yankees have ever had and I believe his 60 time was faster than Ellsbury's. Ellsbury has the reads down a bit better and he plays more.
    Hal sucks

  5. #35
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch;424260;
    I wouldnt say Ellsbury is faster at all. Right now, he is the better basestealer, but in simple footspeed, Gardner is one of the fastest guys the yankees have ever had and I believe his 60 time was faster than Ellsbury's. Ellsbury has the reads down a bit better and he plays more.
    incredible how dense you are sometimes. where the hell did Dojji say Ellsbury was faster?

  6. #36

    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    He edited it
    Hal sucks

  7. #37
    Fight the Hate Dojji's Avatar
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    Yeah, I was clarifying my point. But Ellsbury *is* faster than Gardner.

  8. #38
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    whoever's faster is pretty irrelevant anyways....base-stealing is not all about speed, tracking down flys is not all about speed and both can score from 1st on just about any double

    EDIT: in this instance, I apologize for calling you dense Jacko

  9. #39
    Resident Old Fart Spudboy's Avatar
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox21;424274;
    whoever's faster is pretty irrelevant anyways....base-stealing is not all about speed, tracking down flys is not all about speed and both can score from 1st on just about any double

    EDIT: in this instance, I apologize for calling you dense Jacko
    I don't choose to become involved with an Ellsbury vs. Gardner debate. But I will add this.

    Gardner appears to have a harder head.

    That is all.
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  10. #40

    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    basestealing requires both innate speed and a skill that is learned with experience. Gardner had it down in the minors, but pitchers in the bigs are better at pickoffs and slidesteps, so it makes for a difficult read. That being said, Gardner has been given the green light of late and he's been running more. I like it.

    I said before the season, that an OBP of over .350 would be all I asked for from Gardy. He's at .358 right now. If he can continue that, then I'd petition for him to be starting over Melky and basically anyone else out there. He has a great eye, his contact has improved and he is stealing more bases. He sounds like a guy who is gonna patrol CF for the next few seasons and get better with time, which is all I can ask for. And when Damon leaves next season, I expect Gardner to slot into the leadoff spot and be a fucking pest for a long time to come. While Ellsbury has more power, Gardner does the job of the speed demon better. You can't steal 1b, and Gardner is willing to take the pitches to get there. Ellsbury is a hacker whose patience is lacking.
    Hal sucks

  11. #41
    Fight the Hate Dojji's Avatar
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    The irony here is, of course, that Gardner beats Ellsbury's OBP by a whopping .003

  12. #42
    CEO of the Casas Fan Club Dipre's Avatar
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    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji;424323;
    The irony here is, of course, that Gardner beats Ellsbury's OBP by a whopping .003
    In a lot less ABs while batting lower in the order.

    Jacko, please refrain from making ballwashing comments if they lack any semblance of accuracy.

    You seem to discount the fact that Ellsbury's PPA has risen nearly 1 full point since being moved to the 7th spot.

    Logic dictates that, from watching his minor league numbers, Ellsbury has NEVER been a hacker, rather, something changed in his approach since becoming a ML regular, that something was the fact that pitchers attack him in the zone to keep him from getting on base through the walk, since he offers minimal power,the chances of him getting an XBH were also minimal, so the reward of getting rid of him early in the count versus the danger of him reaching first via hit also early in the count was a sound approach.

    Lower in the order with lesser hitters behind him, the risk/reward factor is greatly reduced, so pitchers work him with less urgency, therefore allowing him to work his ABs in normal fashion.

    And i will say this,Jacko, stop your "homer" idiocy, Jacoby Ellsbury is a better baseball player than Brett Gardner, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it with douchebag comments.

    Oh, and further research shows the following:

    Ellsbury home-to-first from the left side: 3.8 seconds.

    Gardner home-to-first from the left side: 3.9 seconds.
    WAR is good for something.

  13. #43

    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    You guys are incredible. Homers to the end. I said that Gardner is more patient.

    Exhibit A:
    Ellsbury IsoPatience: .048
    Gardner IsoPatience: .077

    Exhibit B:
    Ellsbury P/PA: 3.80
    Gardner P/PA: 4.05

    Exhibit C: Minor League #s
    Ellsbury IsoPatience: .076
    Gardner IsoPatience: .098

    There isnt much of a comparison. Gardner has been categorically, the more patient hitter than Ellsbury. There hasnt been a change of approach. If anything, Gardner should be the only guy they go after whether he's in the 8 or 9 hole, yet he gets walked at a higher rate. That argument makes no sense. Gardner bats in front of Jeter out of the 9 hole while Ellsbury bats in front of Nick Green in the 7 hole. Plus, another fact to douse your fire.

    Ellsbury IsoP by batting position
    Leadoff: .033
    Second: .182 (only 17ABs)
    Seventh: .052 (only 35AB)
    Eighth: .063 (only 14AB)

    So even with the position change, the IsoPatience does not touch Gardner's.

    When you compare these players, you need to think about the type of player they are and how they contribute to a club. For Gardner and Ellsbury, neither will ever be big slugging percentage kinds of guys. They are pests. They are best when they are on base. And while Ellsbury's OBP is significantly impacted by his BA, Gardner's isnt as he is more patient. So, in the long run, I expect Ells to have the higher average, but Gardner to have the higher OBP as he learns the league since he has proven at every level that he is more selective and more patient.

    In terms of the better overall player, it is way too early to call that. Both of them have near identical OBPs and OPSs with Ellsbury having a decided advantage in BA. They were born within 3 weeks of each other although Ellsbury has a yr on him in terms of experience. So I am not calling that now. I am just saying that the player who has the higher OBP in their instances will be the more valuable offensive player and I think long term, Gardner possesses the tools to outdo Ells in that singular category
    Hal sucks

  14. #44
    CEO of the Casas Fan Club Dipre's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    SSS recognition FAIL.

    Gardner has 179 PA's vs Ellsbury's 302.

    There's a reason why Gardner's your 4th OF.

    I contend that IsoPatience is a useless stat, i like to use P/PA which you used in your comparison.

    However, if you notice the 0.25 difference between Ellsbury's and Gardner's P/PA after Jacoby's abysmal OBP start and Gardner's lack of playing time, the end result is a LOL directed from me to you.

    Also, genius, this sentence:

    There isnt much of a comparison. Gardner has been categorically, the more patient hitter than Ellsbury. There hasnt been a change of approach. If anything, Gardner should be the only guy they go after whether he's in the 8 or 9 hole, yet he gets walked at a higher rate. That argument makes no sense. Gardner bats in front of Jeter out of the 9 hole while Ellsbury bats in front of Nick Green in the 7 hole.

    Then explain the sudden OBP and P/PA from Ellsbury after dropping to the 7th spot.

    It's simple, pitchers are throwing him less strikes.

    And one last thing:

    IsoPatience, LOL.
    WAR is good for something.

  15. #45

    Re: Ellsbury's Spot in the Order

    You can downplay the stat all you want. It is a legitimate stat. I dont really have much in the way of a rebuttal if you wont accept a legitimate stat. Thats like saying rads or greys arent good stats in radiation or that pounds or kilos arent good units of measure. It isnt debatable. Just shows a deficit in your skillset as a thinking human being.
    Hal sucks

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