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Thread: A Realistic View at 2017 Part I

  1. #2746
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    I don't think most of the moves were bad. I think they were decent moves that turned out badly.

    Even the Pablo signing, which I didn't necessarily like, should not have turned out as badly as it did in 2015. The same with Hanley and the left field experiment, with which I was fully on board.
    You're a very generous soul, Kimmi.

  2. #2747
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I don't know where you get the idea that Ben had a "5 year plan". Are there any quotes about this?

    The simple explanation for why Ben got canned is the back-to-back last place finishes. But there may have been other stuff going on that we don't know about. There may have been 'philosophical differences' between JH and Ben. There may have been specific moves Ben made that JH disagreed with. For example, maybe it was Ben who sold the front office that Hanley would be just fine in left field. Like I say there's a lot we don't know about.
    I clearly said the "five year plan" was my term.

    I know why BC got canned.

  3. #2748
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Amazingly enough, the major share of the WAR on the 2016 team came from players acquired by Theo.
    Yes, the Theo prospects BC did not trade away.

  4. #2749
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    I clearly said the "five year plan" was my term.
    Then you took it a step further and said you were certain this plan was approved by ownership. That's getting a little carried away with your own idea.

  5. #2750
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Yes, the Theo prospects BC did not trade away.
    DD didn't trade them away either. We need a pie chart to allocate the credit.

  6. #2751
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    I very much disagree with most of this post.
    Me too.

    Cherington's "rebuilding" strategy involved the Great Reset Button trade, which then only took slightly over 13 months to lead to a title. He also didn't deal Lester and Lackey for prospects and instead focused on Major Leaguers. That's not building a sustainable farm. He did sign a lot of free agents, including Uehara, Napoli, Drew, Victorino, Dempster, Sandoval, Hanley, etc.

    Dombrowski's method of garnering stability was to sign Verlander and Cabrera to such cumbersome deals, the Tigers are actually trying to work in a rebuilding period right now...

  7. #2752
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Dombrowski's method of garnering stability was to sign Verlander and Cabrera to such cumbersome deals, the Tigers are actually trying to work in a rebuilding period right now...
    But to this point Verlander and Cabrera have yielded values in keeping with their salaries. Isn't that a good thing?

  8. #2753
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Then you took it a step further and said you were certain this plan was approved by ownership. That's getting a little carried away with your own idea.
    Whatever you want to call BC's plan, I am certain those above him signed onto it.

    I called it a 5 year plan, because I think he was eyeing adding pitching the next year. Maybe it was more of a 4 year plan. This didn't mean the Sox could suck for 4-5 years while his plan took effect. Clearly, with the spending continuing, we were supposed to remain competitive for those 2-3 years before his plan reached fruition- or being highly competitive as a top 3 ring contender for several years afterwards.

    It's my opinion- nothing more.

  9. #2754
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    DD didn't trade them away either. We need a pie chart to allocate the credit.
    Because they weren't prospects anymore and had already become indispensable. Wasn't Margot and Shaw Theo's guys?

    DD has traded away these prospects in the last 8 months (by highest soxprospects ranking):

    1 Moncada (Sale)
    3 Espinoza (Pomeranz)
    3 Margot (Kimbrel)
    5 Kopech (Sale)
    6 Guerra (Kimbrel)
    7 Basabe (Sale)
    9 Dubron (Thornburg)
    12 Rijo (A Hill)
    12 Shaw (Thornburg)
    13 L Allen (Kimbrel)
    18 Basabe (Ziegler)
    20 C Asuaje (Kimbrel)
    21 V Diaz (Sale)
    24 Pennington (Thornburg)
    40 J Almonte (Ziegler)
    43 Wilkerson (A Hill)

    Had BC traded similar ranked guys for an immediate win now strategy, where would 1 or 2 of Betts, Bogey, JBJ and others be right now?

    Maybe BC would still have his job.


  10. #2755
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Whatever you want to call BC's plan, I am certain those above him signed onto it.
    They signed the cheques. That's all we know. Maybe nobody was really sure what they were doing. By August 2015 JH was obviously unimpressed with the results.

  11. #2756
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Because they weren't prospects anymore and had already become indispensable. Wasn't Margot and Shaw Theo's guys?

    DD has traded away these prospects in the last 8 months (by highest soxprospects ranking):

    1 Moncada (Sale)
    3 Espinoza (Pomeranz)
    3 Margot (Kimbrel)
    5 Kopech (Sale)
    6 Guerra (Kimbrel)
    7 Basabe (Sale)
    9 Dubron (Thornburg)
    12 Rijo (A Hill)
    12 Shaw (Thornburg)
    13 L Allen (Kimbrel)
    18 Basabe (Ziegler)
    20 C Asuaje (Kimbrel)
    21 V Diaz (Sale)
    24 Pennington (Thornburg)
    40 J Almonte (Ziegler)
    43 Wilkerson (A Hill)

    Had BC traded similar ranked guys for an immediate win now strategy, where would 1 or 2 of Betts, Bogey, JBJ and others be right now?

    Maybe BC would still have his job.

    Now you're changing the argument. DD didn't trade away Betts, Bogaerts or Bradley. He deserves some credit for that. He was almost certainly asked for these guys when talking to other teams about starting pitchers.

  12. #2757
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    I very much disagree with most of this post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    But to this point Verlander and Cabrera have yielded values in keeping with their salaries. Isn't that a good thing?
    Is it if the team has to shop JD Martinez and Ian Kinsley just to stay afloat? And Cabrera still has 7 years and $212mill REMAINING!!!!

    Coupled with the $84mill still owed to Verlander over the next three seasons, and that is an INSANE $300 million to two aging players who are most definitely NOT going to repeat their 2016 seasons until their respective free agencies.

    Is this really how a team builds a window to win in your eyes?

  13. #2758
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    DD didn't trade them away either. We need a pie chart to allocate the credit.
    Well as they say you can't keep all your... Ahem... I mean you can't trade all your prospects. ehh.. nevermind.

  14. #2759
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Now you're changing the argument. DD didn't trade away Betts, Bogaerts or Bradley. He deserves some credit for that. He was almost certainly asked for these guys when talking to other teams about starting pitchers.
    .
    My point was that BC did not trade away Theo's top prospects.

    To say DD didn't either is really "changing the argument" as DD's comparable would be BC's prospects not Theo's who mostly had graduated.

  15. #2760
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Is it if the team has to shop JD Martinez and Ian Kinsley just to stay afloat? And Cabrera still has 7 years and $212mill REMAINING!!!!

    Coupled with the $84mill still owed to Verlander over the next three seasons, and that is an INSANE $300 million to two aging players who are most definitely NOT going to repeat their 2016 seasons until their respective free agencies.

    Is this really how a team builds a window to win in your eyes?
    I guess it's all about the hear and now for some.

    Miggy and Verlander have earned their keep so far and damn the future.

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