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Thread: A Realistic View at 2017 Part I

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I think we're all in agreement that we have a pretty good ball club.

    The team needs tweaking, not complete overhaul.

    Just signing a DH will allow the Sox offense to take a deep breath and see what develops. The benefit is our farm system is not disturbed. Shaw/Rodriquez platoon at 3B can't be any worse than Shaw/Hill experiment. This will allow Moncada additional time to develop.

    Ideally, both Swihart and Moncada take over the C/3B positions at some point during 2017 season. Our lineup will be solid 1-9 at that point.

    Our starting pitching is more than adequate with Wright coming back healthy. E Rod appears to be getting stronger and has not reached anywhere near his peak. This was first full season for Pomeranz getting to start and he should be better in 2017. I suppose you keep Clay B for additional depth.

    I'm too lazy to look up. Any trade deadline top of the line pitcher pending FA candidates?
    Our current catchers are good defensively but are a liability at bat. Swihart might be a solution to the hitting issue but would his defense be an offsetting liability? Certainly if we could improve our catching slot from within, without going into the expensive FA market, then that is a better solution. Leaves more resources to deal with the 3rd base issue, DH and R Pitching.

    At this point if we could trade for an ace SP without ruining our prospect list, then I would consider it and perhaps not pick up Buchholtz contract.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    Spuddy, if there was any chance Hanley had the physical ability to play third, he would have done it at least once at some point in the last 2 years where we have had massive issues gaining stability at the hot corner, and likely made the position his own. Shaw had been groomed as a first basemen who could backup at 3B for the years leading up to 2016. If Hanley could handle regular duties at 3B, he would have made the position his own after Sandoval flamed out, and Shaw and possibly others would be jockeying for 1B duties.

    IIRC there are concerns about Hanley's shoulder if he had to regularly make throws across the diamond again.

    I think you have to jettison the fact that Hanley used to be a third baseman from your mind, because if there was any thought of him going back to the hot corner it would have been tried by now, and seriously. A Hanley that could play 3B would be incredibly valuable to this team. THe fact that they never tried it tells me that they *CAN'T.* He's too old to move back up the defensive spectrum in that way.

    Learn the lesson of Kevin Youkilis*, "Used to be a 3B" isn't always enough. Otherwise we could always play EE himself at the hot corner, he totes fershure used to be a third baseman after all! #TotallyNotSerious

    *I remain convinced that Youk would have had a much longer tail to his career if left at 1B
    Not so sure about this Doj. Isn't the Left, non-throwing, shoulder Hanley's problem? He seems to have decent mobility at 1st. I see no reason to expect a dramatic drop-off at third.

    I think the fact that Hanley settled into 1st base has more to do with plans that had been made and the timing of Fatboy's most recent flop at 3rd than with his inability to play 3rd.

    But I could be wrong. Like everyone else here.

    Even if I am wrong, the Sox still have Shaw, Hernandez, and Holt to split duties at 3rd and 1st, LF, and DH to be shared by EE, Hanley, and Beltran.

    My idea is valid unless someone can prove definitely otherwise.
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  3. #33
    Resident Old Fart Spudboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Do you think Swihart is a viable option as a starting catcher? I do. I can't believe he's THAT bad defensively with his athleticism.
    I'm with you Nick. Even though I believe that all athletic catchers with strong hitting tools should be moved to another position ( like 1st or 3rd ) to safeguard there body and maximize their output.

    And to the rest of you, yes, I do realize that a hitting catcher is very valuable.
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  4. #34
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    Nothing would please me more than finding out HR could play 3B, but I have to think, as many problems as we've had at 3B, he'd have been tried there a few times, as an experiment if nothing else, maybe in the closing days of one of the last 2 seasons perhaps, if the team thought that it was possible for him to play there effectively.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    Nothing would please me more than finding out HR could play 3B, but I have to think, as many problems as we've had at 3B, he'd have been tried there a few times, as an experiment if nothing else, maybe in the closing days of one of the last 2 seasons perhaps, if the team thought that it was possible for him to play there effectively.
    As I said, it may have had a lot to do with plans and timing.

    Fatboy sucked in 2015 and Hanley was "injured" and sent home late last year.

    Fatboy was the 3rd baseman designate in 2016 ST and the sucked ass. All the while Hanley was slotted to play 1st and was being trained to do so.

    And of course, the Sox in all their wisdom, signed both Hanley and Fatboy at about the same time. At that point which one would seem to be the best suited to play 3rd?
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Do you think Swihart is a viable option as a starting catcher? I do. I can't believe he's THAT bad defensively with his athleticism.
    IMO this centers more around Vazquez than it does around Swihart.

    When the FO began to have Swihart learn LF it was apparent that the plan was that he was going to the be the backup catcher behind Vazquez OR trade bait. Since then it appears that Vazquez has been enough of a concern that he was sent down to work on his game.

    As I see it the question now is where these two fall on the Red Sox Depth Chart. If Swihart has moved ahead of Vazquez then he (Swi) certainly is a viable option for the Sox as a starting catcher. OTOH, if Vaz is still above Swihart I see him as a viable option for some other team as a starting catcher via a trade.

    This conundrum may force the Sox to wait until next season (as in NOT 'over the winter') to see how this all shakes out. Or... they may commit to keeping both of them and deciding later who's going to be the starter and who's going to be the backup.
    It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by illinoisredsox View Post
    Moon, they can't "Castillo" Panda. Once a player has 5 years in the majors, he can't be sent down without his consent. Panda's been around since 2008-2009. So the only options are to trade him or release him. If the latter, anyone can sign him for the MLB minimum, with the Sox having to pick up the difference. Either way, they are not going to be able to get out of paying a decent part of his contract and having it count against the limit. They are between the proverbial rock and hard place with him.
    Didn't Craig have 5 years?

    I think you're right.

    We may have to eat his contract or hope he becomes some sort of use- even if as a platoon DH.

  8. #38
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Panda will be the opening day 3b.

    Price will have a better season than in 2016.

    Moncada doesn't make the opening day roster.

    Sox pick up 2 new relief arms and make a substantial one year offer to Koji.

    Tazawa and Ziegler move on.

    Buchholz has his option picked up.

    The Sox don't bring in any new starting pitchers.

    Kopech is converted to a bullpen arm.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Do you think Swihart is a viable option as a starting catcher? I do. I can't believe he's THAT bad defensively with his athleticism.
    I do think he's still a catcher option, and with our catcher situation more in question now than two months ago, I can see the position for keeping him. I love Swihart. I think he's going to be a very good offensive player. I'm not sure about the defense, but catcher defense takes time to master. Remember, VTek was not really a plus defender until 31 -32 years old.

    I also realize we have 3 catchers in a league starving for catchers. I think Leon and Vaz are better defenders, and I'm super high on catcher defense. I think Swihart will likely be moved to LF, 3B or 1B with the Sox, so his value may be higher with another team as a catcher. (key word: may) I also know you have to give to get, and I value Swihart highly... both here and as trade bait.


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by S5Dewey View Post
    IMO this centers more around Vazquez than it does around Swihart.

    When the FO began to have Swihart learn LF it was apparent that the plan was that he was going to the be the backup catcher behind Vazquez OR trade bait. Since then it appears that Vazquez has been enough of a concern that he was sent down to work on his game.

    As I see it the question now is where these two fall on the Red Sox Depth Chart. If Swihart has moved ahead of Vazquez then he (Swi) certainly is a viable option for the Sox as a starting catcher. OTOH, if Vaz is still above Swihart I see him as a viable option for some other team as a starting catcher via a trade.

    This conundrum may force the Sox to wait until next season (as in NOT 'over the winter') to see how this all shakes out. Or... they may commit to keeping both of them and deciding later who's going to be the starter and who's going to be the backup.
    I agree, and on a team looking to improve in several areas, we may not have the luxury of waiting until one of our three catchers proves he's the starter. I trust Sox management to know who has the best chance at being our catcher going forward, and we may have to trade the other to get where we need to be at 3B, DH, and RP'er.

  11. #41
    Resident Old Fart Spudboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Panda will be the opening day 3b.

    Price will have a better season than in 2016.

    Moncada doesn't make the opening day roster.

    Sox pick up 2 new relief arms and make a substantial one year offer to Koji.

    Tazawa and Ziegler move on.

    Buchholz has his option picked up.

    The Sox don't bring in any new starting pitchers.

    Kopech is converted to a bullpen arm.
    All of these are plausible.
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  12. #42
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Panda will be the opening day 3b.

    Price will have a better season than in 2016.

    Moncada doesn't make the opening day roster.

    Sox pick up 2 new relief arms and make a substantial one year offer to Koji.

    Tazawa and Ziegler move on.

    Buchholz has his option picked up.

    The Sox don't bring in any new starting pitchers.

    Kopech is converted to a bullpen arm.
    I agree with everything here, except maybe the Kopech thing. I think we may bring in a cheap back-up 3Bman on a 1 year deal (Valbuena?)

  13. #43
    Fight the Hate Dojji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Panda will be the opening day 3b.
    Panda needs to prove that he's still a big league third baseman at all. The last time he was allowed to play defense at third he was hurt within a matter of a few weeks.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    Panda needs to prove that he's still a big league third baseman at all. The last time he was allowed to play defense at third he was hurt within a matter of a few weeks.
    If he's not in shape, we'll know right away. I'd think we'd check in before all 3B options are taken to see where he's at.

    If he's lost a lot of wait, it's still a question mark at 3B, especially on defense.

    Watching Cleveland's 3B defense last night and seeing the Sox finished in last place with 3B WAR pretty much tells us where we can improve the most going into next year.

  15. #45
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    I agree with everything here, except maybe the Kopech thing. I think we may bring in a cheap back-up 3Bman on a 1 year deal (Valbuena?)
    Swihart should get reps at 3b in the offseason. I think he has a better skillset there than in LF.

    Kopech just doesn't have the secondary pitches or repeatable delivery to be a good starter. I think it's the best place for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

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