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Thread: Clutch vs non-clutch

  1. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    i will 100% state that certain players will raise their game during bright lights moments. does "raising their game" always equate to a walkoff HR? no. but they have a unique ability to feed off the big moment, increase their focus, enter the zone, clear the mechanism.....
    And do you know who those players are? They are really good.

    That is kind of the point about clutch vs non-clutch. It is not whether the players are robots - it is not whether nerves affect players the same way. The question is whether - in general, for the population - there is a meaningful consistent difference between say, your best hitters over the season and your best hitters in these situations. And for me, the answer is basically no.

  2. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    The first dozen years of Yaz's career were a pitching dominated era.
    Of course - just was noting that because Yaz played his entire career in the pre-Wild Card era, and that the Red Sox - and that the first few years of his career predated the Impossible Dream when the Sox had very few spots to deliver the resume of Ortiz-ian legendary highlights. (and obviously less media etc)

    I think Ortiz is the greatest "clutch hitter" in Red Sox history - not because he was better in those spots than, say, Williams or Yaz (though he might have been), but because he has had many more chances to deliver in those sorts of "historical" spots.

  3. #828
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    So, how does that translate to us not enjoying a walk off HR by Papi?
    Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

    "Wow, great sac bunt there."

    "Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert shitty table blah blah blah blah."

    If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  4. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

    I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.
    I don't doubt that those who are stat-driven enjoy the game as much as those of us who aren't. It's just that some of us don't have to find a statistical reason for everything.

    Like life, baseball is sometimes emotion-driven. Sometimes thing happen with no externally visible reason for it. If it weren't that way a pitcher would never have a bad day or a day when he's "feeling it". He'd be able to go out there every day throw his mediocre (for him) game.

    The fact that we can't always explain why a pitcher has good days and bad days doesn't mean that he doesn't have them. Why was Curt Schilling able to go out there on "Bloody Sock Day' and pitch the way he did? Was his performance that day only random or was he able to 'turn it up a knotch' knowing the circumstances? Are we to believe that Derek Lowe's performance in the WS was only a random expression of what he was able to do and that the fact that it happened on the biggest stage was only a coincidence? If a person is so stat-driven that they believe that it's ok with me but I ain't buying that. So why should it be any different for hitters?
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  5. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    I don't see the difference.
    As I said, it might be a fine line, but there's a difference. Players 'psyche' themselves out in many non pressure situations. You have a mini slump during the regular season, you start second guessing yourself. You start pressing. You change your approach. That has nothing to do with it being a high leverage situation or high leverage game.

  6. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by georom4 View Post
    Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed
    This post is wrong on so many levels.

  7. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

    I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.
    Yeah, I don't get that connection at all. These people have clearly never watched a game with me.

  8. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

    "Wow, great sac bunt there."

    "Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert shitty table blah blah blah blah."

    If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.
    You have become rather insulting and very presumptuous.

    I don't like it one bit.

    I'll tell you the same thing that I've told others.

    If I'm boring you that much, the ignore feature is a beautiful thing. Use it.

  9. #834
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    You have become rather insulting and very presumptuous.

    I don't like it one bit.

    I'll tell you the same thing that I've told others.

    If I'm boring you that much, the ignore feature is a beautiful thing. Use it.
    My post wasn't directed at you and I don't find you boring.

    I don't know what else to say, Kimmi. Just stop assuming I'm always posting about you.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  10. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by georom4 View Post
    Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed
    What the hell are you even on about? This is a bunch of nonsense. People's love of stats does nothing to diminish their love of the game. At the end of the day, the game is played between the white lines and we all watch it as simple fans.
    We miss you Mike.

  11. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    My post wasn't directed at you and I don't find you boring.

    I don't know what else to say, Kimmi. Just stop assuming I'm always posting about you.
    Kimmi, you really need to stop taking some of this stuff personally. It's just silly baseball talk.
    We miss you Mike.

  12. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

    "Wow, great sac bunt there."

    "Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert shitty table blah blah blah blah."

    If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.
    "Look, the runner really has the pitcher rattled. "

    "No, that is statistically improbable. I will send you a link to prove to you that your eyes are lying to you."
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  13. #838
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    This team is 5th in BA and 4th in hits but 13th in OPS in all of baseball. This team doesn't hit for power.

    With those numbers they shouldn't be 16th in Runs Scored and 26th in LOB and 21st in RISP.

    Does anyone other than me see the disconnect here?

    How does one reconcile the fact that this team hits well without people on base or RISP but poorly when they have a real chance to score runs? I have been beaten down by the statisticians here to the point where I hesitate to even use the word "clutch", but dammit people, doesn't it become obvious that this team doesn't hit well in clutch situations?

    Or... should we just attribute it to SSS and bad luck? :-(
    It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
    -Vin Scully

  14. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by S5Dewey View Post
    This team is 5th in BA and 4th in hits but 13th in OPS in all of baseball. This team doesn't hit for power.

    With those numbers they shouldn't be 16th in Runs Scored and 26th in LOB and 21st in RISP.

    Does anyone other than me see the disconnect here?

    How does one reconcile the fact that this team hits well without people on base or RISP but poorly when they have a real chance to score runs? I have been beaten down by the statisticians here to the point where I hesitate to even use the word "clutch", but dammit people, doesn't it become obvious that this team doesn't hit well in clutch situations?

    Or... should we just attribute it to SSS and bad luck? :-(
    I'm not sure what to attribute it to, but the lack of power is a genuine problem, I think.

    There's no getting around the fact that while we have a few positive numbers, this is not a good offense. And as a result we have a hideous run differential of +4 after 41 games.

  15. #840
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    Getting a lot of runners on base and having a lot of LOB is a sign of a good offense, not a bad one. Yes, there is a disconnect between these stats and the # of runs scored.

    Is it lack of clutch? Ha. I would be more inclined to call it a lack of experience, if anything. But really, I think it's just been a fluky thing.

    IMO, if we keep getting runners on base, the runs will come. When? I don't know. Like the rest of you, I'm still waiting.

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