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Thread: Clutch vs non-clutch

  1. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    i will 100% state that certain players will raise their game during bright lights moments. does "raising their game" always equate to a walkoff HR? no. but they have a unique ability to feed off the big moment, increase their focus, enter the zone, clear the mechanism.....
    And do you know who those players are? They are really good.

    That is kind of the point about clutch vs non-clutch. It is not whether the players are robots - it is not whether nerves affect players the same way. The question is whether - in general, for the population - there is a meaningful consistent difference between say, your best hitters over the season and your best hitters in these situations. And for me, the answer is basically no.

  2. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    The first dozen years of Yaz's career were a pitching dominated era.
    Of course - just was noting that because Yaz played his entire career in the pre-Wild Card era, and that the Red Sox - and that the first few years of his career predated the Impossible Dream when the Sox had very few spots to deliver the resume of Ortiz-ian legendary highlights. (and obviously less media etc)

    I think Ortiz is the greatest "clutch hitter" in Red Sox history - not because he was better in those spots than, say, Williams or Yaz (though he might have been), but because he has had many more chances to deliver in those sorts of "historical" spots.

  3. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    So, how does that translate to us not enjoying a walk off HR by Papi?
    Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

    "Wow, great sac bunt there."

    "Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert shitty table blah blah blah blah."

    If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.
    Got a head cold, got a chest cold and it's three days old goin' on forever
    Make you hazy, make you lazy, drive you crazy
    For days and days and days and days and days and years
    The government flu
    The government flu
    The government flew through you

  4. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

    I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.
    I don't doubt that those who are stat-driven enjoy the game as much as those of us who aren't. It's just that some of us don't have to find a statistical reason for everything.

    Like life, baseball is sometimes emotion-driven. Sometimes thing happen with no externally visible reason for it. If it weren't that way a pitcher would never have a bad day or a day when he's "feeling it". He'd be able to go out there every day throw his mediocre (for him) game.

    The fact that we can't always explain why a pitcher has good days and bad days doesn't mean that he doesn't have them. Why was Curt Schilling able to go out there on "Bloody Sock Day' and pitch the way he did? Was his performance that day only random or was he able to 'turn it up a knotch' knowing the circumstances? Are we to believe that Derek Lowe's performance in the WS was only a random expression of what he was able to do and that the fact that it happened on the biggest stage was only a coincidence? If a person is so stat-driven that they believe that it's ok with me but I ain't buying that. So why should it be any different for hitters?
    Any owners who sign previously suspended PED abusers to a big $$ contract are as guilty of perpetuating the PED problem as are the players.

  5. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    I don't see the difference.
    As I said, it might be a fine line, but there's a difference. Players 'psyche' themselves out in many non pressure situations. You have a mini slump during the regular season, you start second guessing yourself. You start pressing. You change your approach. That has nothing to do with it being a high leverage situation or high leverage game.

  6. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by georom4 View Post
    Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed
    This post is wrong on so many levels.

  7. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

    I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.
    Yeah, I don't get that connection at all. These people have clearly never watched a game with me.

  8. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

    "Wow, great sac bunt there."

    "Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert shitty table blah blah blah blah."

    If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.
    You have become rather insulting and very presumptuous.

    I don't like it one bit.

    I'll tell you the same thing that I've told others.

    If I'm boring you that much, the ignore feature is a beautiful thing. Use it.

  9. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    You have become rather insulting and very presumptuous.

    I don't like it one bit.

    I'll tell you the same thing that I've told others.

    If I'm boring you that much, the ignore feature is a beautiful thing. Use it.
    My post wasn't directed at you and I don't find you boring.

    I don't know what else to say, Kimmi. Just stop assuming I'm always posting about you.
    Got a head cold, got a chest cold and it's three days old goin' on forever
    Make you hazy, make you lazy, drive you crazy
    For days and days and days and days and days and years
    The government flu
    The government flu
    The government flew through you

  10. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by georom4 View Post
    Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed
    What the hell are you even on about? This is a bunch of nonsense. People's love of stats does nothing to diminish their love of the game. At the end of the day, the game is played between the white lines and we all watch it as simple fans.
    We miss you Mike.

  11. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    My post wasn't directed at you and I don't find you boring.

    I don't know what else to say, Kimmi. Just stop assuming I'm always posting about you.
    Kimmi, you really need to stop taking some of this stuff personally. It's just silly baseball talk.
    We miss you Mike.

  12. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

    "Wow, great sac bunt there."

    "Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert shitty table blah blah blah blah."

    If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.
    "Look, the runner really has the pitcher rattled. "

    "No, that is statistically improbable. I will send you a link to prove to you that your eyes are lying to you."
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    This is true. Baseball is such a random sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    [T]he conclusion to be drawn is that there is no practical value in seeking this ideal lineup, and in that case any way in which it might be meaningfully termed "best" is irrelevant, academic at best, pedantic at worst

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