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Thread: Clutch vs non-clutch

  1. #1
    Major Leaguer southpaw777's Avatar
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    Clutch vs non-clutch

    Ok, so ive been reading a lot of posts regarding a player being "clutch" or not. Bellhorn made a suggestion for a thread..so Heres what I think...
    There IS a human element to this game that cant be denied. Well, you can deny it but youd be wrong Each players mental makeup and Higher pressure situations can change players. Some players can remain the same where there heartbeat stays the same or even slows down. Some can have zero thoughts except exactly whats going on. On the other hand, some players can get a bit "excited" in the same situations where their heart is racing or they out think themselves...basically they get in their own way.
    The problem is unless your in a players head youll never really know unless you hear certain things when the player talks that may shed some light...So my answer is I believe the human element is a big part of baseball in this situation and therefore I believe certain players, no matter skill level, are able to stay balanced in any situation which gives them a greater chance for success more times than not in some of the biggest, pressure filled situations. Not sure if that means I believe in a "clutch" player or not though...

    So, Does a clutch player exist? I look forward to your answers.

  2. #2
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    I think mental make-up is a big part of overall success and success "when it counts" (clutch).

    It's hard to prove that the reason player A does better than player B "in the clutch" is because of superior mental-make-up, or if it is just some confluence of random events.

    I'm fine with using the term "clutch" for describing events and happenings, or to say so and so "sure seems to come through in the clutch", but when it come to definitively labeling a player "clutch" (or "choke"), I don't think it is something I'd do.

    Sample sizes are often too small, and when larger sample sizes are used, the results often mimic the same results as a random generator would produce, so even then, it's hard to "prove" anything.

    Also, is "clutch" doing better or much better than you usually do or that you do in "Non-clutch" situations?

    If a great player does great in the clutch- but no better than non-clutch situations, is he still "clutch"?

    The argument or debate is often sidetracked by varying views on just what clutch is and which situations are actually clutch or not.

  3. #3
    Major Leaguer southpaw777's Avatar
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    Good answer. Im not sure how to define clutch...i more or less defined what it is to "stay cool" in a pressure situation. If thats part of the meaning of clutch, then im ok with that.
    The outcome may not be a good one, but someone can still "stay cool" and not have success...,maybe the pitcher was "cooler" that day
    Its hard to define

  4. #4
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    I kind of view clutch as rising above your norm to do better when it counts, but since most super clutch situations usually involve facing better-than-norm pitching and defense, one might expect everyone's clutch "norm" to be lower than non-clutch "norm". If that's the case, then a player producing at his non-norm rate could be viewed as "clutch" by some, and I get it.

    Papi's playoff, high leverage and "late & close" numbers were all pretty close to his overall career numbers, so unless yo apply the "harder than normal" aspect to hitting in the clutch, it's hard to argue he was definitively clutch.

    The other important aspect of the Papi case is that if you had a random generator spit out results on the same amount of players and sample sizes "in the clutch", one would see some random samples with very high numbers, so was it all just luck or not? That's what's the hard thing to prove one way or the other.

    I've always said, if any one baseball player could ever be definitively called clutch, it would have to be Papi. I admit, I'm biased and have not experienced other players from other teams continuously coming through "when it counted".

  5. #5
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Whether "clutch" exists or IS up for debate. However, the fact that some people wilt under the pressure IS NOT up for debate.
    Last edited by mvp 78; 02-15-2017 at 11:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

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    Legend S5Dewey's Avatar
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    I think my position on 'clutch' has been pretty well established, so let me share something with you.

    Basketball season is now winding down in my state and the tournament to crown State Champions starts this week and I attend most games in my section of the state.

    Last season I saw a player on a team leading by one point foul a player on the opposing team as time expired. I saw a 16 year old kid go to the line to shoot one-and-one with the game and the season in the balance. If they win they advance. If they lose they go home. That kid made both ends of the one-and-on for the win, and the ball never even touched the rim. Swish. Twice. Random? With that kind of pressure. I think not. Please don't tell me that clutch doesn't exist.
    It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
    -Vin Scully

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    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    I think it's quite possible that baseball is the hardest sport in which to identify clutch or non-clutch because of the issues with randomness and sample sizes.

    Nobody's going to argue very strenuously against Michael Jordan or Tom Brady being clutch.

  8. #8
    Major Leaguer southpaw777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Whether "clutch" exists or IS up for debate. However, the fact that some people wilt under the pressure IS NOT up for debate.
    So if they have the right make up, they can handle those situations. If not, they usually dont.
    This I agree 100% with.
    Some can handle some pressure, but then hit a wall of sorts when it gets to be too much.
    Its all depends when it gets to be too much for some.
    Do you think it can be learned to keep balanced at all times or are we just the way we are?

  9. #9
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw777 View Post
    So if they have the right make up, they can handle those situations. If not, they usually dont.
    This I agree 100% with.
    Some can handle some pressure, but then hit a wall of sorts when it gets to be too much.
    Its all depends when it gets to be too much for some.
    Do you think it can be learned to keep balanced at all times or are we just the way we are?
    We are who we are.

    Some people say that people that wilt get filtered out in the minors. I think some people just have so much more talent than other players that they will make the majors no matter what. However, once they get to the majors and their talent is equal to everyone else's, their nerves are more likely to play a major role. Also, some lights are burn brighter than others (think Melancon in Boston). Nerves may change depending on venue, importance of the game, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  10. #10
    Too old for this User Name?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Whether "clutch" exists or IS up for debate. However, the fact that some people wilt under the pressure IS NOT up for debate.
    I wanna buy this post a steak dinner.
    We miss you Mike.

  11. #11
    Deity Kimmi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Whether "clutch" exists or IS up for debate. However, the fact that some people wilt under the pressure IS NOT up for debate.
    I have never disagreed that some people will fold under pressure. My contention is that those people will not make it to the major leagues, or will not last very long if they do make it.

    Because of the competitiveness and the pressure the players face just to get to that level, I would say that virtually all major leaguers are 'clutch', meaning they are not chokers.

  12. #12
    Deity Kimmi's Avatar
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    On the idea that some players get into such a place mentally that they can 'will' themselves to hit a homerun or accomplish some other great feat in a big moment. If that is the case, why don't they 'will' themselves to do so every time they're up in a big moment?

    Perhaps they are 'willing' themselves to hit a homerun every time they're in a clutch moment, but most times they fail. When they succeed, it's a great feeling. Everyone wants to think these players did something otherworldly. Perhaps they're not doing anything differently than they usually do.

    People tend to remember the big moments. We tend not to remember all the times that our clutch heroes failed to come through in the clutch.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    On the idea that some players get into such a place mentally that they can 'will' themselves to hit a homerun or accomplish some other great feat in a big moment. If that is the case, why don't they 'will' themselves to do so every time they're up in a big moment?

    Perhaps they are 'willing' themselves to hit a homerun every time they're in a clutch moment, but most times they fail. When they succeed, it's a great feeling. Everyone wants to think these players did something otherworldly. Perhaps they're not doing anything differently than they usually do.

    People tend to remember the big moments. We tend not to remember all the times that our clutch heroes failed to come through in the clutch.
    This is interesting for sure. Good opinions and points of view. One of my questions would be, who gets to decide what a clutch moment is?

  14. #14
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    On the idea that some players get into such a place mentally that they can 'will' themselves to hit a homerun or accomplish some other great feat in a big moment. If that is the case, why don't they 'will' themselves to do so every time they're up in a big moment?

    Perhaps they are 'willing' themselves to hit a homerun every time they're in a clutch moment, but most times they fail. When they succeed, it's a great feeling. Everyone wants to think these players did something otherworldly. Perhaps they're not doing anything differently than they usually do.

    People tend to remember the big moments. We tend not to remember all the times that our clutch heroes failed to come through in the clutch.
    Clearly it's impossible for a hitter to come up big every time, or even half the time. The odds are stacked too heavily against him.

    I think it's plausible that some hitters might be better than average in the clutch, though.

  15. #15
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    Like I said - when is the clutch? Who gets to decide? It is not definitive. I'm just guessing but I bet this drives some people nuts. My great players might always do well in the clutch and not so much when the stakes aren't quite so high.

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