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Thread: Farrell

  1. #1786
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Deadwood and Broken Limbs...

    Pablo: 2018: $18.1M, 2019: $18.1M, 2020: $5M buyout
    --Luxury tax cost: $19M for 2018 & 2019

    Castillo: 2018: $11.8M, 2019: $11.8M, 2020: $14.3M
    -- Luxury tax cost: $0.0

    Ramirez: 2018: $22.8M, 2019: $22M vesting option


    Bending Branches...

    Price: 2018: $30M (opt out before 2019), 2019: $31M, 2020-2022 $32M
    --Luxury cost: $31M x4

    Porcello: 2018: $21M, 2019: $21M
    --Luxury cost: $20.6M x 2

    Pedroia: 2018: $16M, 2019: $15M, 2020: $13M, 2021: $12M
    -- Luxury cost: $13.8M x 4


    These 5 players will cost us this:

    2018: $120M ($106M luxury)

    2019: $120M ($106M luxury) or $98M ($84M) if HRam's option does not vest

    2020: $64M ($45M)

    2021: $46M ($45M)

    2022: $32M ($31M)



  2. #1787
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    These 5 players will cost us this:

    2018: $120M ($106M luxury)

    2019: $120M ($106M luxury) or $98M ($84M) if HRam's option does not vest

    2020: $64M ($45M)

    2021: $46M ($45M)

    2022: $32M ($31M)


    I expect him to get 496 plate appearances or less next year. That option is not going to vest. (To vest, he needs 1050 PA during 2017-18)
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  3. #1788
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    To me Schilling's postseason numbers scream clutch.
    I agree with that assessment. Schilling was a clutch performer in the postseason. Nothing wrong with a limited claim like that.

  4. #1789
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    And that is the problem. Everyone has their own recipe so claims of clutch are too subjective to have any real meaning.
    I understand your honest efforts to educate me but you have to understand that I love many things that can not be tracked and proven particularly when it comes to discussions dealing with athletes and athletics. This presents no problem for me. I absolutely love discussing things with people with respect to things like the existence of clutch and clutch players. That is fun for me perhaps because it is so subjective. I get to know people and the way they think this way. I might not agree with them but I listen and respect their feelings and their passion for the games. If things like this were definable in any way statistically, they would hold absolutely no interest for me at all.

  5. #1790
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Farrell' s aggressive base running philosophy did not help the Sox in game 1 of the ALDS. It actually may have hurt when Pedroia was thrown out at third. Even though the run scored, Pedroia could have remained safely at second and extended the inning with two runners on base. Every out is magnified in the postseason and every potential run lost could impact the final outcome. Yes, the Astros killed our pitching but if the Sox had scored more in the inning the dynamic of the game changes.

  6. #1791
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cp176 View Post
    I understand your honest efforts to educate me but you have to understand that I love many things that can not be tracked and proven particularly when it comes to discussions dealing with athletes and athletics. This presents no problem for me. I absolutely love discussing things with people with respect to things like the existence of clutch and clutch players. That is fun for me perhaps because it is so subjective. I get to know people and the way they think this way. I might not agree with them but I listen and respect their feelings and their passion for the games. If things like this were definable in any way statistically, they would hold absolutely no interest for me at all.
    I am not saying it has to be defined only by statistics, but there should be some observable evidence and not simply a feeling. The two things are complementary, not in opposition. I don't define a player by numbers alone, but by observing how they play the game and exhibit their baseball smarts. One of my favorite players was Jason Varitek because he always kept his head in the game and did not give up on any play until the final call was made. That will not show up statistically, but it is a critical component of playing the game to the peak of potential.

  7. #1792
    King of TalkSox a700hitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    For starters, there have to be actual results that qualify as clutch. Calling a hitter clutch without results is meaningless. These results may be measurable in some way such as frequency of occurrence. Then we have to establish what level of frequency qualifies as evidence of clutch being an inherent trait. I'm willing to hear suggestions on what percentage of frequency this should be. That is the subjective part but I am open to a reasonable threshold.

    I didn't ever say clutch moments didn't exist. I also didn't say clutch players didn't exist. I am only asking for evidence other than personal feelings that they do.
    I asked you what kind of definition or measure would convince you that clutch exists and your answer was very vague. None of our measures satisfy you because they are not definitive enough. You give us a definition that would convince you.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  8. #1793
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    I asked you what kind of definition or measure would convince you that clutch exists and your answer was very vague. None of our measures satisfy you because they are not definitive enough. You give us a definition that would convince you.
    Can you give me a percentage of success in the clutch that you feel is the minimum needed to be called clutch?

    But the real issue here is more about defining a player as clutch, which requires more more definitive evidence. I think Ted Williams is a good test subject because he was such a good hitter I would not argue much against calling him clutch. If he is the measuring stick, how many hitters would qualify? I think Williams was so good that he exercised the most control a hitter possibly could in trying to hit safely. But he would also take a walk if the pitch wasn't there and I think that could be part of clutch as well.

  9. #1794
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...&year=0&post=1

    Ted Williams sucked in the postseason. Not even one XBH.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  10. #1795
    King of TalkSox a700hitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Can you give me a percentage of success in the clutch that you feel is the minimum needed to be called clutch?

    But the real issue here is more about defining a player as clutch, which requires more more definitive evidence. I think Ted Williams is a good test subject because he was such a good hitter I would not argue much against calling him clutch. If he is the measuring stick, how many hitters would qualify? I think Williams was so good that he exercised the most control a hitter possibly could in trying to hit safely. But he would also take a walk if the pitch wasn't there and I think that could be part of clutch as well.
    What would convince you? Provide a measure that would definitely convince you?
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  11. #1796
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    What would convince you? Provide a measure that would definitely convince you?
    51% success rate.

  12. #1797
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...&year=0&post=1

    Ted Williams sucked in the postseason. Not even one XBH.
    Two factors played against him. He was injured and the opposing team employed a defensive shift against him.

  13. #1798
    King of TalkSox a700hitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    51% success rate.
    In what situations? And 51% is ridiculously extreme. Basically, a player under that measure would need to have an OBP in high leverage situations that would be higher than Ted Williams lifetime OBP. That pretty much invalidates your position as your measure would be impossible to attain.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  14. #1799
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Two factors played against him. He was injured and the opposing team employed a defensive shift against him.
    Defensive shifts? What are those?
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  15. #1800
    All-Star devildavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    In what situations? And 51% is ridiculously extreme. Basically, a player under that measure would need to have an OBP in high leverage situations that would be higher than Ted Williams lifetime OBP. That pretty much invalidates your position as your measure would be impossible to attain.
    In clutch situations. Clutch situations must exist if clutch performances exist. I thought you already knew all the situations that count in assessing clutch.

    It is very possible to attain in small sample sizes. What percentage would you use?

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