9/19 @ Baltimore

[a700hitter]

no. it 100% should have been caught. my 11U firstbaseman is running laps if he doesnt pick that throw.
fuck moreland and his "gold glove" defense. he sucks. i honestly think hanley did just as good of a job. i dont care what "dwar" says. my eyes tell me different.

I agree with you. After a ful season of watching Moreland, I don't see him as being at a much higher level than Hanley. He throws the ball much better, but fielding ground balls and throws ... there is little difference. Also, he pisses me off when he wanders so far off the base that he interferes with Pedroia's play and often is unsuccessful in getting the out at first for various reasons. It is very hard for a lumbering lefty like Moreland to turn his body and make the leading throw to the pitcher from that far toward 2nd base. Just GTF out of Pedroi's way and get your ass to the base to take the throw. He did that during ST, and I mentioned to Dewey that he shouldn't be wandering that far toward 2nd base... especially in the age of the shift where IF's are piled up on one side of the field.

[mvp 78]

roger clemens and his pussy blister....

Stanley's wild pitch.

[Maxbialystock]

I guess I'm just one to cut to the core. In my mind Devers put the game in doubt with the bad throw. If he makes that throw the game is over, the Sox win, and nothing that happened afterward would have happened. End of story. Devers' errant throw could have cost them the win.

The same with the O's. The wild pitch may have cost the O's the win. If he doesn't make that wild pitch we don't know what else might have happened but it's very possible that the WP cost the O's the win.

I just don't understand why people have to obfuscate the facts with so many tangental things. It is what it is and there's nothing wrong with establishing blame, at least at the major league level. In fact, the threat of blame can be an huge motivator.

I am one of those saying, "show me," but I have also invited anyone to go to a specific game and point out something egregious that cost that game. Egregious is the key word because errors are part of the game therefore not normally egregious.

As for the wild pitch--I agree. It cost the game, but it was also not egregious--not something boneheaded or weak fundamentals or whatever. Had that Oriole scored after Devers' error, it would at least have cost the win if not the game. But it too was not egregious. Devers is mostly in the lineup to hit and he had 2 of our 6 last night.

Speaking of egregious, Beni regularly gets cited on talksox for not playing the wall right or for making a bad throw or whatever. What a dummy--all these years and he still can't play the outfield with all that speed. Naturally, since we prefer the blame game, nobody is saying, "wow, what a great throw after having to come in quickly on the grounder single to LF to nail Machado, no slowpoke, trying to score from 2d with two outs. Beni saved this game!" Nope. That was never said. Heck, I'm not even sure anyone said JBJ saved the game with that grab over the fence/wall.

Instead, we dwell on a bad throw and, just as bad, failure by our experienced firstbaseman to catch or block a throw on the bounce he had to stretch for.

If you watched closely as I did, last night was a semi-miraculous win when Pom did get hit now and then and did have men on base, but still went 6.1 scoreless innings (a lot for him) and when the bullpen was lights out again for 4.2 innings and five--count 'em)--different relievers and when we were 0 for 4 with RISP and finally got a very lucky run in the 11th when Brach fell apart and Showalter left him in. We won despite Gausman having a great night, going 8 and giving up nothing and because the outfield made two terrific plays to prevent two different runs by the Orioles.

So, me, I'm just happy with that and frankly don't care what Devers or Moreland did when nobody scored and Barnes was up to the challenge (for a change).

[Maxbialystock]

I agree with you. After a ful season of watching Moreland, I don't see him as being at a much higher level than Hanley. He throws the ball much better, but fielding ground balls and throws ... there is little difference. Also, he pisses me off when he wanders so far off the base that he interferes with Pedroia's play and often is unsuccessful in getting the out at first for various reasons. It is very hard for a lumbering lefty like Moreland to turn his body and make the leading throw to the pitcher from that far toward 2nd base. Just GTF out of Pedroi's way and get your ass to the base to take the throw. He did that during ST, and I mentioned to Dewey that he shouldn't be wandering that far toward 2nd base... especially in the age of the shift where IF's are piled up on one side of the field.

You like HanRam over Moreland? Fine. You can have him. This year I'll take Moreland every day and twice on Sunday and especially at 1B. Your observations are fine, but the numbers say I'm right. Moreland has had the bigger bat this year, which was supposed to be HanRam's mission. Instead, he has compensated by being too aggressive on the basepaths.

[S5Dewey]

Speaking of egregious, Beni regularly gets cited on talksox for not playing the wall right or for making a bad throw or whatever. What a dummy--all these years and he still can't play the outfield with all that speed. Naturally, since we prefer the blame game, nobody is saying, "wow, what a great throw after having to come in quickly on the grounder single to LF to nail Machado, no slowpoke, trying to score from 2d with two outs. Beni saved this game!" Nope. That was never said. Heck, I'm not even sure anyone said JBJ saved the game with that grab over the fence/wall.

Wait a minute here!! :-) I believe that if you go back over the game threads you'll find positive comments from me regarding both JBJ's catch and Beni's throw. I know that's probably because I like defense more than offense - and probably more than most posters here - and that's ok.

From a fan's perspective I'd rather see a catch like JBJ's and/or a throw like Beni's than any HR. IMO playing defense requires more skills than hitting a baseball a long way. That's why a lot of ex-position players are now DH's. They don't have the skills to play defense any more. We're just fortunate that all three of our starting OF'ers can do both.

[a700hitter]

You like HanRam over Moreland? Fine. You can have him. This year I'll take Moreland every day and twice on Sunday and especially at 1B. Your observations are fine, but the numbers say I'm right. Moreland has had the bigger bat this year, which was supposed to be HanRam's mission. Instead, he has compensated by being too aggressive on the basepaths.

Through what kind of filter do read posts? Seriously, your credibility declines with every post. Did I say that I like HanRam over Moreland as a fielder? I can't discuss things with you if you are going to continue constantly misrepresenting what I say and making wrong assumptions.

[Spudboy]

I agree with you. After a ful season of watching Moreland, I don't see him as being at a much higher level than Hanley. He throws the ball much better, but fielding ground balls and throws ... there is little difference. Also, he pisses me off when he wanders so far off the base that he interferes with Pedroia's play and often is unsuccessful in getting the out at first for various reasons. It is very hard for a lumbering lefty like Moreland to turn his body and make the leading throw to the pitcher from that far toward 2nd base. Just GTF out of Pedroi's way and get your ass to the base to take the throw. He did that during ST, and I mentioned to Dewey that he shouldn't be wandering that far toward 2nd base... especially in the age of the shift where IF's are piled up on one side of the field.

Interesting shit.

[Spudboy]

Wait a minute here!! :-) I believe that if you go back over the game threads you'll find positive comments from me regarding both JBJ's catch and Beni's throw. I know that's probably because I like defense more than offense - and probably more than most posters here - and that's ok.

From a fan's perspective I'd rather see a catch like JBJ's and/or a throw like Beni's than any HR. IMO playing defense requires more skills than hitting a baseball a long way. That's why a lot of ex-position players are now DH's. They don't have the skills to play defense any more. We're just fortunate that all three of our starting OF'ers can do both.

Yup. I agree, of course.

Now Max is referring to me too, I believe.

Last night I kept falling asleep during the game. I did see the play where Beni did make a nice throw home for the assist. I said to myself make sure you mention it on Talksox or someone will make an issue out of it.

But I fell asleep and forgot to post about it!

I never said he could not make good plays. Only that he had considerable room for improvement defensively.

[cp176]

Yup. I agree, of course.

Now Max is referring to me too, I believe.

Last night I kept falling asleep during the game. I did see the play where Beni did make a nice throw home for the assist. I said to myself make sure you mention it on Talksox or someone will make an issue out of it.

But I fell asleep and forgot to post about it!

I never said he could not make good plays. Only that he had considerable room for improvement defensively.

Logical observations about things you see don't even work anymore with some of these guys. I mention Moreland not coming up with the low throw from Devers last night and all of a sudden it becomes me making excuses for Devers and blaming Moreland. It is just good to have some conversation with the group here that actually understands the actual play of the game.
Most of these guys that we are talking about are works in progress. They will develop and they will be fine.

[cp176]

I agree with you. After a ful season of watching Moreland, I don't see him as being at a much higher level than Hanley. He throws the ball much better, but fielding ground balls and throws ... there is little difference. Also, he pisses me off when he wanders so far off the base that he interferes with Pedroia's play and often is unsuccessful in getting the out at first for various reasons. It is very hard for a lumbering lefty like Moreland to turn his body and make the leading throw to the pitcher from that far toward 2nd base. Just GTF out of Pedroi's way and get your ass to the base to take the throw. He did that during ST, and I mentioned to Dewey that he shouldn't be wandering that far toward 2nd base... especially in the age of the shift where IF's are piled up on one side of the field.

I've noticed this with Moreland as well. i also tend to get very nervous when Holt drifts back on to the outfield grass. it is good to see Mookie coming in and calling these guys off every time he can. There is a real reason why the priority system was set up and why it is taught to every kid playing the game. Get the hell out of the way. Field your position and let the players with the better angles make your hard plays look easy.

[TylerD]

Havent seen any of the Yankees and Twins game but my god Yankees seem to have their number. Really hoping Minnesota if they make the Wild Card round can upset the Yankees and move on to face Cleveland (If Cleveland can hang on to that top seed) but right now it isn't looking too good for Minnesota. Yankees are on fire

[Maxbialystock]

Yup. I agree, of course.

Now Max is referring to me too, I believe.

Last night I kept falling asleep during the game. I did see the play where Beni did make a nice throw home for the assist. I said to myself make sure you mention it on Talksox or someone will make an issue out of it.

But I fell asleep and forgot to post about it!

I never said he could not make good plays. Only that he had considerable room for improvement defensively.

You're both right. Yes, I was exaggerating. That is, I'm sure good comments were made on both plays when they were made. My point is that in last three pages we are looking at the game as whole, and in that context much is made of Devers error and Moreland's presumed misplay--that they could have cost us the game. Of course they did not. So then I jumped in with Beni and JBJ because they clearly, unmistakably each saved the game by himself. We don't get to the 11th inning without both of those plays. Also, as you have just said, the usual commentary on Beni is about all the mistakes he makes--most of which I am happy to overlook because I think his natural position is CF. Even last year, however, he made that stunning catch, I think in the Trop, over the left field wall. So me, I see the potential more than the faults, especially when he has been one of our two or three best bats when we badly needed them and this is his rookie season.

[Maxbialystock]

Through what kind of filter do read posts? Seriously, your credibility declines with every post. Did I say that I like HanRam over Moreland as a fielder? I can't discuss things with you if you are going to continue constantly misrepresenting what I say and making wrong assumptions.

I guess I misread what you wrote: "but fielding grounds balls and throws--there is little difference." Plus you said Moreland keeps getting in Pedroia's way which presumably HanRam doesn't do. Like you, I haven't seen the gold glove first baseman, but I have seen an acceptable one--about even on the DWAR scale. Plus this year we needed his bat as much or more as we needed his glove and arm and footwork at 1b--especially now that it's crunch time. Since August 1st Moreland has missed two games even though earlier he missed more games against lefty starters.

The real problem--disagreement--must be that I simply ain't that picky about the defense or for that matter the base running.

[cp176]

I think that you are right. I know that I tend to be very picky about what I see as the little things that make up the bigger picture when it comes to the games. I think that Benintendi's defense has been getting better for a while now. Maybe even fewer gaffs on the bases. I'm much more concerned about his base running than his fielding because I think that some of his running mistakes represent mental mistakes. As for Devers, I see him as a defensive work in progress but I think that he needs a very long leash.

[S5Dewey]

The real problem must be that I simply ain't that picky about the defense ....

Please don't say things like that. It makes me shudder and my blood run cold.