Register now to remove this ad

Page 4 of 20 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 294

Thread: Sale

  1. #46
    Deity
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    10,488
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    How much does Sale pitching 1 more games instead of two hurt our odds?

    90% to 88%?

    He's been inconsistent of late, most likely due to fatigue, so we're not even sure we're going to get what we saw last night in both of his next 2 starts.

    ER/IP last few starts (in reverse order)

    0/8
    4/5.2
    0/6
    3/4.1
    0/7
    6/3
    4/7
    1/7
    0/8
    7/5

    5 of his last 10 starts have been "iffy" or worse. Is that what you guys want for the playoffs?

    Really?

    It's not even 'an issue?"


    Once again I think that this situation depends on your perspective. it is a non-issue for me because I see the season as a whole a contest to win your division. 162 games and then you take your chances. The playoffs and a potential World Series matchup is always the goal but for me getting there first is the primary objective. if someone helps us get there and then comes up lame, i just don't see it as an issue. I would be sad of course but I tend not to look back and say what if. Naturally that does not mean that you play obviously injured players if playing them is going to make said injury worse.

  2. #47
    Fight the Hate Dojji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    18,524
    Quote Originally Posted by cp176 View Post
    Once again I think that this situation depends on your perspective. it is a non-issue for me because I see the season as a whole a contest to win your division. 162 games and then you take your chances. The playoffs and a potential World Series matchup is always the goal but for me getting there first is the primary objective. if someone helps us get there and then comes up lame, i just don't see it as an issue. I would be sad of course but I tend not to look back and say what if. Naturally that does not mean that you play obviously injured players if playing them is going to make said injury worse.
    Aaaaaactually...

    Schilling_1280_fmxdimxa_5w1q4sls.jpg

    I do get what you're saying, I'm honestly convinced Mike Lowell torpedoed the team's chances in 2009 by playing through IIRC a hip pointer that he could have gotten operated on, cleaned out and back in the game b y the playoffs, and at the time we had Jed Lowrie available as 3B depth.

    He had the choice between playing 3 months with an increasingly debilitating injury, or getting the surgery he needed, cleaning out his hip, rehabbing for a month and taking the field in October. He made the wrong choice and was ineffective by September due to the limits imposed by his injury -- specifically the huge deficit in his already marginal range at third base. As a result his season bWAR was exactly zero, he was literally replacement level that year and trending downward by October It would have been better in the end simply to let Lowell go under the knife in July or August and get Jed Lowrie all the experience he needed to take over the position himself.

    There's always pros and cons to the decision to rest or play a player. Personally though I see no reason right now to shut down Sale other than paranoid timidity, and that's no way to run a baseball team.
    Last edited by Dojji; 09-21-2017 at 08:51 AM.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  3. #48
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Sugar Land, Texas
    Posts
    80,045
    Quote Originally Posted by cp176 View Post
    Once again I think that this situation depends on your perspective. it is a non-issue for me because I see the season as a whole a contest to win your division. 162 games and then you take your chances. The playoffs and a potential World Series matchup is always the goal but for me getting there first is the primary objective. if someone helps us get there and then comes up lame, i just don't see it as an issue. I would be sad of course but I tend not to look back and say what if. Naturally that does not mean that you play obviously injured players if playing them is going to make said injury worse.
    What about fatigued players with a long history of tiring as the seasons heads towards the end?

    I get your point and others', but this is not a slam dunk issue.

  4. #49
    Fight the Hate Dojji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    18,524
    When was the last time Sale had something to play for in September?

    One can trend downward at garbage time without fatigue being the main reason. Personally I think you're leaping to a conclusion.

    Anyway, haven't presented any actual argument in favor of the idea that resting him now will improve his numbers when it matters in October. This is because you don't have the data to actually do more than merely suggest such a thing. In a word, you're guessing.
    Last edited by Dojji; 09-21-2017 at 09:11 AM.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  5. #50
    Deity
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    10,488
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    What about fatigued players with a long history of tiring as the seasons heads towards the end?

    I get your point and others', but this is not a slam dunk issue.
    I think that you have to listen to your players carefully. I'm not sure that if you are specifically referring to Sale that he would look at the accumulated stats and believe that you ought to categorize him as one of those guys that gets fatigued and tires toward the end. If someone was going to suggest that to him, I'm pretty sure that I would decline doing that job. If you or anyone else gives me all of the stats (facts?) that you can dig up to show that this might be the case, I probably still would not buy that it is fatigue that caused him to not win every game that he has pitched in this year. Sometimes you lose - in his case more times you win. Do you really think that he looked pooped out at all last night?

  6. #51
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Sugar Land, Texas
    Posts
    80,045
    Quote Originally Posted by cp176 View Post
    I think that you have to listen to your players carefully. I'm not sure that if you are specifically referring to Sale that he would look at the accumulated stats and believe that you ought to categorize him as one of those guys that gets fatigued and tires toward the end. If someone was going to suggest that to him, I'm pretty sure that I would decline doing that job. If you or anyone else gives me all of the stats (facts?) that you can dig up to show that this might be the case, I probably still would not buy that it is fatigue that caused him to not win every game that he has pitched in this year. Sometimes you lose - in his case more times you win. Do you really think that he looked pooped out at all last night?
    He has a very long history of significantly fading in SEPT/OCT. I get that Sale is a warrior, but sometimes you also have to listen to your own gut.

  7. #52
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    65,916
    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    Red magic marker.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  8. #53
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Sugar Land, Texas
    Posts
    80,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    When was the last time Sale had something to play for in September?

    One can trend downward at garbage time without fatigue being the main reason. Personally I think you're leaping to a conclusion.

    Anyway, haven't presented any actual argument in favor of the idea that resting him now will improve his numbers when it matters in October. This is because you don't have the data to actually do more than merely suggest such a thing. In a word, you're guessing.
    His monthly numbers steadily decline after May, then they dip more sharply in Sept.

    Explain them away, all you want, but I'd be cautious with him

    He's certainly looked much different in his last 10 starts than his first- and we're in heavy competition mode here.

    His numbers this year match up with his career late season decline numbers, so I'm trusting that over Sale's own personal desires to be a "gamer".

    Remember, Pedro never wanted to be pulled..

  9. #54
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    65,916
    Sale's innings need to be managed as much as possible right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  10. #55
    Deity
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    10,488
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    He has a very long history of significantly fading in SEPT/OCT. I get that Sale is a warrior, but sometimes you also have to listen to your own gut.
    How did he look to you last night?

  11. #56
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    65,916
    Quote Originally Posted by cp176 View Post
    How did he look to you last night?
    How'd he look last Friday against the Rays? 5 2/3, 4 ER

    How'd he look against the Yankees on Sept 3? 4 1/3, 3 ER

    How'd he look against the Indians on Aug 24? 3, 6 ER

    Half of his starts since Aug 1 have been mediocre to horrible. http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx...-09-20&season=
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  12. #57
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Sugar Land, Texas
    Posts
    80,045
    Quote Originally Posted by cp176 View Post
    How did he look to you last night?
    Awesome- just like he has in 5 of his last 10 starts.

    I'm worried about him continuing this 50-50 pattern into the playoffs. I'm trying to be pro-active here.

    I know it's a risk-reward trade-off, and nothing is for sure, but my opinion is and was to rest him more than we have.

    Why 8 IP and 111 pitches in a 9-0 win?

  13. #58
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Sugar Land, Texas
    Posts
    80,045
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    How'd he look last Friday against the Rays? 5 2/3, 4 ER

    How'd he look against the Yankees on Sept 3? 4 1/3, 3 ER

    How'd he look against the Indians on Aug 24? 3, 6 ER

    Half of his starts since Aug 1 have been mediocre to horrible. http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx...-09-20&season=
    Yes...
    ER/IP last few starts (in reverse order)

    0/8
    4/5.2
    0/6
    3/4.1
    0/7
    6/3
    4/7
    1/7
    0/8
    7/5

    5 of his last 10 starts have been "iffy" or worse. Is that what some want for the playoffs?

    If yes, then keep pitching him like this.

    5 great: 1 ER in 36 IP

    5 bad: 24 ER in 25 IP



  14. #59
    Deity
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    10,488
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    How'd he look last Friday against the Rays? 5 2/3, 4 ER

    How'd he look against the Yankees on Sept 3? 4 1/3, 3 ER

    How'd he look against the Indians on Aug 24? 3, 6 ER

    Half of his starts since Aug 1 have been mediocre to horrible. http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx...-09-20&season=
    Sure can't disagree with them old stats. Wait a minute - of course I can. I thought he looked pretty good last night. As a matter of fact I thought he looked dominant. I'm not saying that you run him into the ground but guess I am just not that concerned about Chris Sale. You just wanted to see Price get two or three innings didn't you? lol

  15. #60
    Deity
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    10,488
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Yes...
    ER/IP last few starts (in reverse order)

    0/8
    4/5.2
    0/6
    3/4.1
    0/7
    6/3
    4/7
    1/7
    0/8
    7/5

    5 of his last 10 starts have been "iffy" or worse. Is that what some want for the playoffs?

    If yes, then keep pitching him like this.

    5 great: 1 ER in 36 IP

    5 bad: 24 ER in 25 IP



    I want to get to the playoffs. Things are looking better everyday.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •