9/26 Vs. Toronto

[Slasher9]

Koufax quit in 1966 at age 31 because he was diagnosed with traumatic arthritis in 1964 when he couldn't straighten his arm the day after pitching a shutout. The diagnosis was by the team physician, Dr Bob Kerlan. The next year, still fighting arthritic pain, he pitched his fourth no-hitter and the first perfect game by a lefty since 1880. He had 14 strikeouts. That same year, 1965, despite fighting arthritic pain, he was the WS MVP after pitching a shutout to clinch the Series.

The next year, his last, he and Drysdale were holdouts for more money. That spring Dr Kerlan told him not to pitch another season, but he still pitched 323 innings, went 27-9, and had an ERA of 1.73. That became his last season in part because of the pain and in part because continuing to pitch could make his arm useless and even painful in his retirement. He certainly did not retire because he had no more great pitches or great games in him.

the forest for the trees max.

[OH FOY!]

Nice article about Left of Arm of God. Saw him pitch against the Mets at Polo Grounds with my Pop. 1 hitter
https://www.wired.com/2011/03/why-sa...urveball-rule/

Side note: First victory for Tug McGraw was against Koufax, he was a starter then.
In that 65 WS game he won it for Dodgers, he could not throw a curve anymore, threw that whole game with about 95% fastballs. Jeff Torborg has said he would love to see him on the guns today, he caught 1 of his No-Hitters.

[Slasher9]

Nice article about Left of Arm of God. Saw him pitch against the Mets at Polo Grounds with my Pop. 1 hitter
https://www.wired.com/2011/03/why-sa...urveball-rule/

Side note: First victory for Tug McGraw was against Koufax, he was a starter then.
In that 65 WS game he won it for Dodgers, he could not throw a curve anymore, threw that whole game with about 95% fastballs

i got a chance to shake tug mcgraws hand at a little league dinner when i was a 10 year old. he told us the story of how he gut his nickname tug. his mom gave it to him....apparently he enjoyed getting his milk as a baby......

[SoxHop]

But right now they have to get there. Does starting Valazquez or some other minor leaguer else make that more likley? The time to build in rest was in July and August. And the board was screaming when Farrell tried to give that to Sale (and the rest of the stff) back then.

The team is flawed and has been all year, and now injuries are cropping up; Betts has a hand/wrist that could be very problematic going forward. Pedey and Nunez have knee problems. That is very troublesome. JBJ is in one of his semingly endless funks (don't forget he had a thumb issue earlier this month). Hanley hasn' been there all year. Benintendi banged a ball off his ankle tonight. They will win or lose on whether or not they hit, and to do that they need everyone back and reasonable healthy; I'm not overly worried about the pitching.

I don't think skipping him in the rotation would be correct, just pull him early if there isn't a reason to have him in there. The previous game we were up about 6 runs, last game after he gave up the 3 run homer I would have pulled him.

[Spudboy]

a pitchers arm only has so many bullets. wasting them on a blowout game with a oversized September pen sitting there is fucking dumb. it's as simple as that. it's not really debatable. ask sandy koufax if a pitchers arm has infinite bullets.....

I can agree with this.

[Maxbialystock]

OK, I think I know where the fire Farrell gang is coming from on this rest issue. On September 20, 2017, a day which will now live in
infamy, Farrell failed to pull Sale after six innings and instead let him pitch 8 innings. Since Sale averaged about 14 pitches per inning that night, I think this boils down to 28 extra, needless, insane, ridiculous, thoughtless pitches. It made no difference Sale would have an extra day's rest before his next start at home against the Jays. Those 28 pitches clearly pushed Sale beyond his limit, and what we saw last night was a wreck, a pale imitation of the fireballing ace we had seen in the distant past--way back on September 20 when he struck out 13 over 8 scoreless innings. That Sale was now gone.

Here's why I have a problem with that thesis. First and foremost, Sale still struck out 8 guys in 5 innings last night. Second his heater--the 97 mph and above version--was very much in evidence. He was also throwing changeups and sliders. However--and a small amount of this has to do with an ump who wasn't given him any corners--what I saw was that his breaking balls were up in the zone and therefore very hittable. In fact, one of Donaldson's dingers came off a slider and the other off a changeup, both up in the zone. All four dingers came off of pitches up in the zone, but not way up. In other words, just about right for a team facing Sale for the 4th time this season and with some pretty good bats. The most dingers by a MLB team so far this season is 232, and the Jays have 219.

Then there is the fact that Sale has thrown just 502 pitches this month, easily the fewest in a month this season. Among those 5 starts he has actually pitched two shutout games, one for 8 innings and the other 6 innings.

So, while I will give credit to moonslav, mvp78 and others for complaining during the September 20 game that Sale needed to be rested because the Sox had a big lead, I'm less sure than they that those 28 pitches pushed Sale over a cliff.

I think it's just as reasonable to say he lacked command of his pitches last night and that the Jays were ready for those pitches up in the zone. Heck, back in July, by far his best month with an ERA of 1.04, he went 7 innings against the Rays and gave up 4 runs, including 2 dingers.

[Slasher9]

OK, I think I know where the fire Farrell gang is coming from on this rest issue. On September 20, 2017, a day which will now live in
infamy, Farrell failed to pull Sale after six innings and instead let him pitch 8 innings. Since Sale averaged about 14 pitches per inning that night, I think this boils down to 28 extra, needless, insane, ridiculous, thoughtless pitches. It made no difference Sale would have an extra day's rest before his next start at home against the Jays. Those 28 pitches clearly pushed Sale beyond his limit, and what we saw last night was a wreck, a pale imitation of the fireballing ace we had seen in the distant past--way back on September 20 when he struck out 13 over 8 scoreless innings. That Sale was now gone.

Here's why I have a problem with that thesis. First and foremost, Sale still struck out 8 guys in 5 innings last night. Second his heater--the 97 mph and above version--was very much in evidence. He was also throwing changeups and sliders. However--and a small amount of this has to do with an ump who wasn't given him any corners--what I saw was that his breaking balls were up in the zone and therefore very hittable. In fact, one of Donaldson's dingers came off a slider and the other off a changeup, both up in the zone. All four dingers came off of pitches up in the zone, but not way up. In other words, just about right for a team facing Sale for the 4th time this season and with some pretty good bats. The most dingers by a MLB team so far this season is 232, and the Jays have 219.

Then there is the fact that Sale has thrown just 502 pitches this month, easily the fewest in a month this season. Among those 5 starts he has actually pitched two shutout games, one for 8 innings and the other 6 innings.

So, while I will give credit to moonslav, mvp78 and others for complaining during the September 20 game that Sale needed to be rested because the Sox had a big lead, I'm less sure than they that those 28 pitches pushed Sale over a cliff.

I think it's just as reasonable to say he lacked command of his pitches last night and that the Jays were ready for those pitches up in the zone. Heck, back in July, by far his best month with an ERA of 1.04, he went 7 innings against the Rays and gave up 4 runs, including 2 dingers.

some of us wanted him skipped for the day to get 2 more days of rest. when that didnt happen some of us wanted him pulled after the 5th inning of the 20-Sep game. he threw 41 pitches in the 6-8 innings of that game.

[mvp 78]

OK, I think I know where the fire Farrell gang is coming from on this rest issue. On September 20, 2017, a day which will now live in
infamy, Farrell failed to pull Sale after six innings and instead let him pitch 8 innings. Since Sale averaged about 14 pitches per inning that night, I think this boils down to 28 extra, needless, insane, ridiculous, thoughtless pitches. It made no difference Sale would have an extra day's rest before his next start at home against the Jays. Those 28 pitches clearly pushed Sale beyond his limit, and what we saw last night was a wreck, a pale imitation of the fireballing ace we had seen in the distant past--way back on September 20 when he struck out 13 over 8 scoreless innings. That Sale was now gone.

Here's why I have a problem with that thesis. First and foremost, Sale still struck out 8 guys in 5 innings last night. Second his heater--the 97 mph and above version--was very much in evidence. He was also throwing changeups and sliders. However--and a small amount of this has to do with an ump who wasn't given him any corners--what I saw was that his breaking balls were up in the zone and therefore very hittable. In fact, one of Donaldson's dingers came off a slider and the other off a changeup, both up in the zone. All four dingers came off of pitches up in the zone, but not way up. In other words, just about right for a team facing Sale for the 4th time this season and with some pretty good bats. The most dingers by a MLB team so far this season is 232, and the Jays have 219.

Then there is the fact that Sale has thrown just 502 pitches this month, easily the fewest in a month this season. Among those 5 starts he has actually pitched two shutout games, one for 8 innings and the other 6 innings.

So, while I will give credit to moonslav, mvp78 and others for complaining during the September 20 game that Sale needed to be rested because the Sox had a big lead, I'm less sure than they that those 28 pitches pushed Sale over a cliff.

I think it's just as reasonable to say he lacked command of his pitches last night and that the Jays were ready for those pitches up in the zone. Heck, back in July, by far his best month with an ERA of 1.04, he went 7 innings against the Rays and gave up 4 runs, including 2 dingers.

You can't even get the thesis right.

1. Sale has alternated great and horrible starts since August 1. http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx...603&position=P LOOK AT THAT GAME LOG AND TELL ME IT'S NOT A THING.

2. Sale has a history of wearing down over the course of the season.

3. Some posters think his innings may need to be managed in the 2nd half of the season.

4. Having Sale pitch a full 8 innings against a hapless O's lineup with a large lead is just dumb no matter what. After 5 innings, the Sox were up 6 - 0. There was little reason to keep trotting him out. The bullpen was firing on all cylinders at that time.

That one game is just indicative of Farrell not managing the situation well. It's not the sole reason he pitched bad last night.

[mvp 78]

some of us wanted him skipped for the day to get 2 more days of rest. when that didnt happen some of us wanted him pulled after the 5th inning of the 20-Sep game. he threw 41 pitches in the 6-8 innings of that game.

He didn't need the rest. HE PITCHED GREAT THAT GAME SO CLEARLY HE DIDN'T NEED REST.

[Slasher9]

also, max, because JF left him in for all those extra needless pitches we will NEVER KNOW the outcome of pulling him early. we will know the outcome of leaving him in. perhaps he would 5 CG shutouts in the postseason had he not thrown those 41 pitches. we will never know because JF is an idiot.

[Bellhorn04]

I'll agree that it would have made sense to pull Sale after 6 innings or whatever. But I find it hard to believe a few dozen pitches is going to be the ruination of his season.

I think Farrell has tried to manage Sale's workload this year. He's only topped 115 pitches a few times, he's never reached 120 pitches, he's usually been removed at about 110.

[mvp 78]

I'll agree that it would have made sense to pull Sale after 6 innings or whatever. But I find it hard to believe a few dozen pitches is going to be the ruination of his season.

I think Farrell has tried to manage Sale's workload this year. He's only topped 115 pitches a few times, he's never reached 120 pitches, he's usually been removed at about 110.

No one has said those pitches are the ruination of the season. The downturn of his season started August 1. Farrell should have looked into the issue more closely then.

[Bellhorn04]

No one has said those pitches are the ruination of the season. The downturn of his season started August 1. Farrell should have looked into the issue more closely then.

Sale's arm seems fine. He's been throwing smoke all season.

The other theory, that the more teams see him the more they adapt to him, may be worth considering as an alternative explanation.

[mvp 78]

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits....ion=P&season=0

Or his numbers always regress from August on?

[Bellhorn04]

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits....ion=P&season=0

Or his numbers always regress from August on?

It's a serious issue, I just don't know if there's any good answer to it. Resting him extensively is kind of hard to do when you're in a battle for the division and you already have Price injured and Porcello sucking.