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Thread: 2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

  1. #4231
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    The baseball league minimum salary is now up to $300,000. Thats most of the way to the top 1% of wage earners in this country (they earn about $400,000). I am not disputing how hard these guys work, but on the other hand, I feel like I worked hard to get where I am as well, as, I am sure, did you. If I didn't like the salary or working conditions that my chosen profession offered, like everyone else in this country, I am free to seek employment elsewhere. Similarly, if a baseball player does not care for what is offered, he can also leave. Its a free country.
    I'm not sure it's an appropriate comparison, since there's only one major league baseball organization, unless you consider moving to Japan one of the options. There's not exactly the kind of freedom of movement you have as an accountant or lawyer or doctor or whatever.

  2. #4232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I'm not sure it's an appropriate comparison, since there's only one major league baseball organization, unless you consider moving to Japan one of the options. There's not exactly the kind of freedom of movement you have as an accountant or lawyer or doctor or whatever.
    They are limited only by their imagination and willingness and desire to change. There are many players who chose other careers when they couldn't get what they wanted from the game. Doug Mirabelli chose to sell real estate; John Rocker became a conservative columnist; Byun-Hyung Kim opened a restaurant; Mitch Williams developed his own brand of salsa, "The Wild Thing". JD Martinez is thumbing his nose are an absurd amount of money, as is Hosmer, in an effort to get even more. When is it "enough"? It smacks of greed. You could say the same thing about the owners not wanting to pay these guys even more money so they can keep it for themselves or for their business, but you know what? They OWN the team. As Mel Brooks once said, "Its good to be the king".

  3. #4233
    We live in a capitalist society. MLB FA is the epitome of capitalism
    Hal sucks

  4. #4234
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    They are limited only by their imagination and willingness and desire to change. There are many players who chose other careers when they couldn't get what they wanted from the game. Doug Mirabelli chose to sell real estate; John Rocker became a conservative columnist; Byun-Hyung Kim opened a restaurant; Mitch Williams developed his own brand of salsa, "The Wild Thing". JD Martinez is thumbing his nose are an absurd amount of money, as is Hosmer, in an effort to get even more. When is it "enough"? It smacks of greed. You could say the same thing about the owners not wanting to pay these guys even more money so they can keep it for themselves or for their business, but you know what? They OWN the team. As Mel Brooks once said, "Its good to be the king".
    Major props for quoting Mel Brooks.
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  5. #4235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    The owners can afford to pay out these ludicrous contracts and heavy penalties for going over the luxury tax limits. But why should they be obligated to do so?

    I could understand the players being upset if they were being lowballed. But they're not. All of the contract offers that have been reported are very fair. In fact, they are already overpays, if you ask me.

    It's the players that need to come to grips with their demands, not the owners.
    Because the Collective Bargaining Agreement permits owners to underpay the vast majority of players, teams can be reasonably expected to overpay for the rare player reaches six years of MLB service. That's the price the owners pay for suppressing the salaries of most players.

    Why not do away with the draft and make each player a free agent regardless of years of service? Let the market determine how much each player is worth. That's the way employment works in many industries.

    The excess money that now goes to the rare player who reaches free agency could be redistributed among the less experienced players who are currently underpaid. At the same time, without a minimum salary, owners could fill out their rosters with players who are willing to fulfill childhood dreams for, say, $100,000 or less annually.

    Just a thought.

  6. #4236
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    Quote Originally Posted by harmony View Post
    Because the Collective Bargaining Agreement permits owners to underpay the vast majority of players, teams can be reasonably expected to overpay for the rare player reaches six years of MLB service. That's the price the owners pay for suppressing the salaries of most players.

    Why not do away with the draft and make each player a free agent regardless of years of service? Let the market determine how much each player is worth. That's the way employment works in many industries.

    The excess money that now goes to the rare player who reaches free agency could be redistributed among the less experienced players who are currently underpaid. At the same time, without a minimum salary, owners could fill mvpout their rosters with players who are willing to fulfill childhood dreams for, say, $100,000 or less annually.

    Just a thought.
    I find it somewhat ironic that the so-called best labor union would have to scramble and re-arrange that much just to catch up to the rest of the country...

  7. #4237
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    We live in a capitalist society. MLB FA is the epitome of capitalism
    Yes and no.

    Free agency is up to a point. When it doesn't turn out to be as advantageous for the players as they want, they cry foul. We saw one agent make that exact allegation, stooping short of the industry's dirty word.

    Right now, the market appears to be set. And the players simply don't like it. In tbe past , this lead to collusion accusations from the players, even in years where there was no lawsuit. The owners really have no equivalent charge to counter with...

  8. #4238
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Yes and no.

    Free agency is up to a point. When it doesn't turn out to be as advantageous for the players as they want, they cry foul. We saw one agent make that exact allegation, stooping short of the industry's dirty word.

    Right now, the market appears to be set. And the players simply don't like it. In tbe past , this lead to collusion accusations from the players, even in years where there was no lawsuit. The owners really have no equivalent charge to counter with...
    As every front office embraces advanced metrics, I suspect there is a general consensus on how much a free agent is worth. Teams don't want to pay the free agent a penny more than he is worth.

    But that ignores the fact that teams are permitted to underpay the vast majority of players who fall short of six years of MLB service.

    Should the owners have it both ways, underpaying most players while paying the free agent only what he is worth?

  9. #4239
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    Quote Originally Posted by harmony View Post
    As every front office embraces advanced metrics, I suspect there is a general consensus on how much a free agent is worth. Teams don't want to pay the free agent a penny more than he is worth.

    But that ignores the fact that teams are permitted to underpay the vast majority of players who fall short of six years of MLB service.

    Should the owners have it both ways, underpaying most players while paying the free agent only what he is worth?


    They also overpay many of those players in their first 6 years as well. And right now the determination of worth appears to be an arbitrary process at best, and probably not one agreed upon by both sides. You present your argument as if it is a clearly recognized fact along the lines of "water is wet." Simple question - which is greater - money underpaid to pre-arb players or overpaid to free agents?

    Also the way the arbitration process is heading, the values are rapidly approaching the same numbers in free agency. Only 9 players have a higher salary in 2018 than Josh Donaldson received in his last year of eligibility.

    Not to mention, owners this year have most definitely been making offers. Wade Davisset a record for AAV on a closer. Drew Smiley and Michael Pineda each received two year deals when they were both out the first seasons of them (effectively making them high risk one year deals). Juan Nicasio, Pat Neshek, Tommy Hunter, Brandon Morrow and Addison Reed all received very high AAVs for non-closing releivers, but for fewer years. The AAV for each of these non-closers is among MLB best for non-closing relievers. While relief pitchers appear to have embraced this idea, the position players have not, without regards for how high the salary is.

  10. #4240
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Also the way the arbitration process is heading, the values are rapidly approaching the same numbers in free agency. Only 9 players have a higher salary in 2018 than Josh Donaldson received in his last year of eligibility.
    http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

  11. #4241
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    Quote Originally Posted by harmony View Post
    My source was pretty weak then (or maybe an AAV source I misread). But either way an arbitration player has made his way to among the highest paid players in the game, which was the point.

    Now what's your justification that players are underpaid for the first six years?

  12. #4242
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    Quote Originally Posted by harmony View Post
    As every front office embraces advanced metrics, I suspect there is a general consensus on how much a free agent is worth. Teams don't want to pay the free agent a penny more than he is worth.

    But that ignores the fact that teams are permitted to underpay the vast majority of players who fall short of six years of MLB service.

    Should the owners have it both ways, underpaying most players while paying the free agent only what he is worth?
    "Underpay" according to who?
    That involves a value judgement. Its not just metrics that determine the value of a player, its also years of service and other factors. When you talk about a guy getting $300,000 as a minimum salary, its hard to say with certainty that they are being "underpaid". I did the same job as others in my field for years and earned less money than they did because they had more years of service with the company. There was were no negotiations; I was told how much the offer was and I could choose to take it or work elsewhere, perhaps in a different field if I wanted to. I didn't have the option to "hold out", nor do most normal people. If you "hold out" someone else will be offered my job.
    Sorry; these guys are spoiled and greedy, in general. I have no sympathy for guys like Martinez at all.

  13. #4243
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    Quote Originally Posted by harmony View Post
    As every front office embraces advanced metrics, I suspect there is a general consensus on how much a free agent is worth. Teams don't want to pay the free agent a penny more than he is worth.

    But that ignores the fact that teams are permitted to underpay the vast majority of players who fall short of six years of MLB service.

    Should the owners have it both ways, underpaying most players while paying the free agent only what he is worth?


    I bet there isn't. For proof I offer all the immovable contracts out there. If there was a consensus as to their worth, many of these long term albatross deals would not be considered as such...

    .

  14. #4244
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    "Underpay" according to who?
    That involves a value judgement. Its not just metrics that determine the value of a player, its also years of service and other factors. When you talk about a guy getting $300,000 as a minimum salary, its hard to say with certainty that they are being "underpaid". I did the same job as others in my field for years and earned less money than they did because they had more years of service with the company. There was were no negotiations; I was told how much the offer was and I could choose to take it or work elsewhere, perhaps in a different field if I wanted to. I didn't have the option to "hold out", nor do most normal people. If you "hold out" someone else will be offered my job.
    Sorry; these guys are spoiled and greedy, in general. I have no sympathy for guys like Martinez at all.
    Got to say Fred that I am with you all the way. I will also say though that I have been ok with all this money being spent on entertainment but I have just about reached my limit. The pay scale for professional athletes is a joke. Trying to really determine what an average salary is is even more of a joke if for no other reason than none of their salaries are truly average. How is the average human being working at an average but maybe even good job supposed to identify with this world of make believe?

  15. #4245
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    "Underpay" according to who?
    That involves a value judgement. Its not just metrics that determine the value of a player, its also years of service and other factors. When you talk about a guy getting $300,000 as a minimum salary, its hard to say with certainty that they are being "underpaid". I did the same job as others in my field for years and earned less money than they did because they had more years of service with the company. There was were no negotiations; I was told how much the offer was and I could choose to take it or work elsewhere, perhaps in a different field if I wanted to. I didn't have the option to "hold out", nor do most normal people. If you "hold out" someone else will be offered my job.
    Sorry; these guys are spoiled and greedy, in general. I have no sympathy for guys like Martinez at all.
    That's the option that the vast majority of players lack ... they cannot go to another employer in their field seeking a better offer.

    Over the past three seasons Mookie Betts has been paid roughly $2 million while posting 18.1 fWAR, valued at $146.3 million:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...ition=OF#value

    To date Eduardo Rodriguez earned about $1.1 million while posting 5.0 fWAR, valued at $39.9 million.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...sition=P#value

    That's what I mean when I write that non-free agents tend to be underpaid.

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