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Thread: 6 Inning Starts + 6 Man Roration = Fewer Arm Problems

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bosoxmal View Post
    and how many pitchers featured a slider in 1970? Zero!!
    http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/stor...rob&id=1786104

    So who threw the first great slider? Red Ruffing and Johnny Allen, big stars in the 1930s, are real possibilities, and Feller also is a candidate. With most of the great pitchers drafted into the Army or Navy during World War II (Feller actually enlisted), there weren't a lot of great pitches thrown during those years. But Feller came back after the war, and wrote in his book, "It was the slider which was of the greatest help to me in 1946 when I established a strikeout record of 348 for a season. I used it in many spots where I had used a curve before."

    Feller pitched for the Indians, of course, and he soon was joined by another great slider. In the late 1940s, Indians outfielder Bob Lemon became Indians pitcher Bob Lemon, and he learned the slider from pitching coach Mel Harder. Lemon's in the Hall of Fame, and he probably wouldn't be there without his slider.

    Dick Donovan's not in the Hall of Fame, but he did come up with a Hall of Fame slider in the 1950s, and in 1961 his 2.40 ERA was the lowest in the majors. Meanwhile, Jim Bunning was throwing a great slider of which Ted Williams later said, "unlike most sliders, Bunning's tended to rise, he kind of slung it sidearm ..." And Bunning, like Lemon, eventually wound up in the Hall of Fame.

    Bob Gibson probably threw the best slider of the 1960s, but the decade didn't see a lot of great sliders. Most of the best pitchers of the '60s threw overpowering fastballs and tough curveballs (overhand or sidearm), in part because the conditions of the time rewarded pitchers with that style.

    In the 1970s, though, things changed. One of the most vivid memories of my youth involves listening to Royals games on the radio, and hearing Denny Matthews or Fred White refer to an opposition starter as a "sinker/slider guy." Those were the two pitches of the '70s: good sinker, hard slider. Steve Carlton's slider was known as perhaps the toughest pitch in the National League, and for a few years Sparky Lyle dominated American League hitters while throwing mostly sliders. In the 1980s, reliever Larry Andersen perfected his slider to the point where he rarely bothered throwing anything else. And in the 1990s, Randy Johnson threw what might have been the scariest slider -- just ask John Kruk -- ever.
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

  2. #17
    Just a note:

    Ron Guidry eas credited with being the first to master the slider in 1978. That year he had a rediculous record (25-3 or somethning like hat). In 1981 he started to have arm problems. Teg Williams once told someon he got out just in time--before everyone started throwing the slider.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by bosoxmal View Post
    Just a note:

    Ron Guidry eas credited with being the first to master the slider in 1978. That year he had a rediculous record (25-3 or somethning like hat). In 1981 he started to have arm problems. Teg Williams once told someon he got out just in time--before everyone started throwing the slider.
    Sparky Lyle taught him the pitch tho?
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    It's not up to the players union for a 6 man rotation. Also, the GM's wouldn't buy this. Starting pitchers have bloated salaries and now you are asking to increase the spots by 20%. This will drive up salaries, which the players would love, but GM's wouldn't and the cap wouldn't accommodate it. This is a moot point
    I was talking about a 26 or 27 man rotation, which could facilitate a 6 man rotation.

    The union does not have to approve of a 26/27 man roster, but the owners could dangle the idea in an attempt to take something away fro the players.

    Adding 2 roster spots offers a lot of job security to older players.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by OH FOY! View Post
    How many starts would you think your #1 would miss in a season?
    162/5 = 33 (ace & #2) & 32 (3/4/5 starters)
    162/6 =27

    So about 6, but if you never give your ace an extra day (6 days off), then it might be just missing 5 or so.

    You could conceivably try and get a few more pitches out of your better starters every start, but that might defeat the purpose to some extent.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    That's not "irony". That's proof that he threw too many innings.
    Yes, and poor managing.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    That's not "irony". That's proof that he threw too many innings.
    I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with Farrell getting fired. This is the second year in a row where the Red Sox's SPs were awful in the playoffs. Maybe they need fewer innings during the regular season to keep them strong in October? I don't know. Sale threw 214.1 innings and we are now at the point where we are saying that is too much. Amazing how baseball has changed from the days of Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Gaylord Perry, etc.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fan_since_Boggs View Post
    I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with Farrell getting fired. This is the second year in a row where the Red Sox's SPs were awful in the playoffs. Maybe they need fewer innings during the regular season to keep them strong in October? I don't know. Sale threw 214.1 innings and we are now at the point where we are saying that is too much. Amazing how baseball has changed from the days of Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Gaylord Perry, etc.
    So was Cory Kluber, and Jose Quintana, and Jon Lester ... I am not sure there is much to conclude here.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sk7326 View Post
    So was Cory Kluber, and Jose Quintana, and Jon Lester ... I am not sure there is much to conclude here.
    Although, given Sale's second half splits, I wouldn't be surprised to see his innings cut back next year - maybe 195 as a target or something like that?

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Yes, and poor managing.
    FTR, Farrell did try to give Sale some extra rest midseason, and he got a LOT of criticism for it.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Yes, and poor managing.
    Sale's fade was genuinely strange though

    1. He kept sprinkling in great performances
    2. His strikeout rate never dropped, and his walk rate never went up ... and he had a terrific August
    3. The line drive rate until September stayed pretty still. It seemed the problems were all about getting his slider to bite ... the velocity was still easy and high

    The White Sox managed him carefully and had a similar performance curve ... it might just be something he has to iron out.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Although, given Sale's second half splits, I wouldn't be surprised to see his innings cut back next year - maybe 195 as a target or something like that?
    Maybe - but he had a great August, and the things you'd expect to reflect a fade (more frequent line drives, fewer strikeouts) never really came to pass. I think they will be a bit more careful - but I don't think they weren't careful ... they knew the merchandise when they bought it.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    FTR, Farrell did try to give Sale some extra rest midseason, and he got a LOT of criticism for it.
    Not from me, and he barely got any extra rest. He started 32 games, instead of 33.

    He did get an extra day every time we got a day off, which was better than skipping another starter's start, but I do not think it was enough.

    I do hope we plan better next year. Even if we do, I'm not sure it will work, but it's worth a try.


  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by sk7326 View Post
    2. His strikeout rate never dropped, and his walk rate never went up ... and he had a terrific August ...
    Terrific?

    August 2017

    4.38 ERA worst of the season

    1.054 WHIP is pretty "terrific", but it was his second worst month.

    OPS against:
    .875 Sept
    .640 May
    .620 Aug
    .574June
    .500 July
    .433 April

    His K/BB ratio was 3rd worst in August and worst in September, so I'm not sure how his K rate and BB did not get worse at the end of the season. (1st half 8.09 & second half 6.19)

    Career 1st half/2nd half
    ERA: 2.74/ 3.28
    WHIP: 0.97/ 1.14
    OPS: .583/ .679
    tOPS+ 86/ 116
    K/BB: 5.34/4.90

    tOPS+ by month (career)
    87
    72
    90
    101
    105
    138

  15. #30
    The six man rotation works if you go with 13 pitchers and have at least two holtís on the bench.

    I would instead propose that we go to a 13 pitcher squad, but every other cycle the Long reliever gets a start starting June 1st, and we stay on rotation even when we have a day off.

    It is so important to get these pitchers locked in and focused on throwing strikes and secondary pitches through the first couple of months of the season.

    I think we do not give our starters enough innings in spring training and they come out rusty to start each season.

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