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Thread: Clutch vs Choke

  1. #1

    Clutch vs Choke

    There has been a lot of debate here about the reality of " clutch" . In my view , it is just too hard to define what is truly clutch. Every post season at bat or every late in close game at bat is not necessarily clutch. For most players , there are probably only a few truly clutch moments. Too small a sample size to form a definitive conclusion. On the other hand , choke can be pretty obvious. You can often see it in the eyes and body language of an athlete who just cannot deal with the high pressure situations. This is more often seen in sports which require precision of execution. In sports where adrenaline is more important , it is not always the case. So , maybe " clutch " is just the absence of " choke " . Especially when one is composed while the opponent is rattled by the situation and the consequences. While a certain amount of chance , luck or " randomness " will always occur ; it is pretty easy to spot a choker. Bottom line : Some guys get the apple , and some don't.

  2. #2
    Then, there are big "chokes" like Bonds who suddenly become "clutch".

    Then, there are big "clutch" players like Beckett who become "chokes".

    I'm not buying it.

  3. #3
    Ask Big Papi and get back to me.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    This is true. Baseball is such a random sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    [T]he conclusion to be drawn is that there is no practical value in seeking this ideal lineup, and in that case any way in which it might be meaningfully termed "best" is irrelevant, academic at best, pedantic at worst

  4. #4
    Sometimes guys can choke , but later find what it takes to deal with the pressure. Sometimes skills just diminish. And there are always exceptions to every rule. That does not change the reality that some people can handle pressure situations , and some cannot.

  5. #5
    I can well believe that some guys may be better able to handle pressure situations than others, but I also believe that fans are often too quick to slap a label on a player based on small and ultimately meaningless sample sizes. A handful of innings or plate appearances spread out over multiple seasons doesn't really tell me a whole lot.

    If Pablo Sandoval qualifies as a "clutch" player because he had some great postseasons in San Francisco, then it's a pretty useless distinction.
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    Sometimes guys can choke , but later find what it takes to deal with the pressure. Sometimes skills just diminish. And there are always exceptions to every rule. That does not change the reality that some people can handle pressure situations , and some cannot.
    And there was recent talk about how Kershaw finally figured out how not to choke, and how his previous playoff experience and maturity helped him learn to handle the pressure better. Then, he comes out the next game and 'chokes' again. Why is that?

    Some people can indeed handle the pressure better than others. Those who cannot handle the pressure do not survive in the big leagues for very long. The ability to raise one's game to an other worldly level in a clutch situation does not exist.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flap View Post
    I can well believe that some guys may be better able to handle pressure situations than others, but I also believe that fans are often too quick to slap a label on a player based on small and ultimately meaningless sample sizes. A handful of innings or plate appearances spread out over multiple seasons doesn't really tell me a whole lot.

    If Pablo Sandoval qualifies as a "clutch" player because he had some great postseasons in San Francisco, then it's a pretty useless distinction.
    Bingo. The small sample size is troublesome enough. The fact that that small sample is spread out over several seasons makes if even worse.

  9. #9
    Baseball is a very difficult sport in which to evaluate clutch or choke. For starters, the game revolves around a contest between hitter and pitcher in which the hitter is always at a sizable disadvantage. So even if you're David Ortiz, you're still going to make an out more often than not in a big situation.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Baseball is a very difficult sport in which to evaluate clutch or choke. For starters, the game revolves around a contest between hitter and pitcher in which the hitter is always at a sizable disadvantage. So even if you're David Ortiz, you're still going to make an out more often than not in a big situation.
    I'm beginning to think that I liked this great game a lot more before all of the innovative thinking which includes the over use of replay in an effort to get things right! To me - all of these great aspects of the game exist and do not to need to be proven. If the subjective existence of these types of things ever are actually proven to not exist, think I will just stick with my golf game. Same goes for any introduction of robotics to help more clearly define the strike zone. I do not share the belief that this game is better today due to the intro of all of the supposed technological advancements. My type of baseball does not involve a sterile approach. I'm really not old, just old fashioned i guess.

  11. #11
    Kershaw is 100% a chocker.
    not even debatable.
    his team scored 12 runs on a night he was the SP and the dodgers lost. CHOCKER.
    other names i have posted under: none

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    Kershaw is 100% a chocker.
    not even debatable.
    his team scored 12 runs on a night he was the SP and the dodgers lost. CHOCKER.
    Keuchel, Giles, Darvish and Jansen are also chockers based on this series.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Keuchel, Giles, Darvish and Jansen are also chockers based on this series.
    i'm not just basing it on this series. kershaw has given up 203 HR's this postseason. plus his stats blow chunks for any other postseason you want to pull up for him. Chocker.
    other names i have posted under: none

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Keuchel, Giles, Darvish and Jansen are also chockers based on this series.
    I guess this WS is chock full of chockers.
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    Kershaw is 100% a chocker.
    not even debatable.
    his team scored 12 runs on a night he was the SP and the dodgers lost. CHOCKER.
    He's probably worn out! Same as their top reliver is (6 batters, about 10 runs!). Just as Sale was, same as Price was every year. When they stop twisting their fucking arms out of their sockets with this damn sliders, maybe they'll las a full season. And stay in shape for 12 months, and fon't waste spring training trying to lose 1o lbs worth of flab.

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