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Thread: 2018 Hall of Fame Class

  1. #16
    There is a big difference between voting for someone who was a definite PED drug user (Bonds, Clemons, Manny, A-Rod, Mcgwire, Palmerio) versus voting for someone who may (or may not) have used PEDs (Piazza, Bagwell, Henderson). The HOF will be a disgrace if they let in the former group (definite drug users). The latter group is an unknown--the result of imperfect information.

    Sure, we have imperfect information, that is the reality of life, and so, yes, drug users will get into the HOF. But there is a big difference between that and voting for players who were definite juicers.

    Once you let definite juicers into the HOF, the standards (and ideals) of sportsmanship, fair play, etc., will be greatly diminished throughout our society. The HOF has a responsibility to not let that happen.
    Last edited by Fan_since_Boggs; 12-03-2017 at 09:50 PM.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Fan_since_Boggs View Post
    There is a big difference between voting for someone who was a definite PED drug user (Bonds, Clemons, Manny, A-Rod, Mcgwire, Palmerio) versus voting for someone who may (or may not) have used PEDs (Piazza, Bagwell, Henderson). The HOF will be a disgrace if they let in the former group (definite drug users). The latter group is an unknown--the result of imperfect information.

    Sure, we have imperfect information, that is the reality of life, and so, yes, drug users will get into the HOF. But there is a big difference between that and voting for players who were definite juicers.

    Once you let definite juicers into the HOF, the standards (and ideals) of sportsmanship, fair play, etc., will be greatly diminished throughout our society. The HOF has a responsibility to not let that happen.
    Thwe Hall of Fame is a museum, and the job of a museum is to preserve history, not to censor it.

    Also there are arguments to be made that no one you named as a definite PED user even cheated...

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Thwe Hall of Fame is a museum, and the job of a museum is to preserve history, not to censor it.

    Also there are arguments to be made that no one you named as a definite PED user even cheated...
    PED users have distorted history. It is a history that baseball should not celebrate.

    Also there are arguments to be made that no one you named as a definite PED user even cheated
    This is totally wrong. Manny was caught cheating twice (two failed tests). Palmerio was caught cheating once. McGwire has now admitted to using PEDs, using the A.Pettitte bullshit excuse: for injuries. A-Rod never failed a test but he admitted to using PEDs while with the Rangers. Moreover, in exchange for immunity, A-Rod testified under oath that he used PEDs while a member of the New York Yankees. Bonds hasn't admitted to it, but he was associated with that clinic. Clemons hasn't admitted to it, but most people think he is lying and there is pretty strong evidence that he took PEDs. The evidence is conclusive enough, but each HOF voter will need to make that decision on his own. If they feel the evidence is there, they shouldn't vote for a Clemons.

    There is a huge difference between the players listed above and the R.Henderson, I.Rodriguez, Piazza types. That is, there is a difference between hard evidence and innuendo. We have hard evidence for the players listed above; innuendo for the second group. Let the second group in, but the HOF should reserve the right to remove players if evidence surfaces after they have been put into the HOF. To be sure, we already have evidence for the first group.
    Last edited by Fan_since_Boggs; 12-07-2017 at 06:17 PM.

  4. #19
    So Morris gets in instead of Tiant. Bad call IMO.

  5. #20
    Jack Morris sucks.
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fan_since_Boggs View Post
    Thank you, Joe Morgan. This will hopefully keep Bonds and Clemons out.

    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...ball-hall-fame

    The HOF needs to pass a rule: if evidence surfaces that a HOF took PEDs, the HOF should be able to take executive action of some sort and immediately remove that player from the HOF. The fear is that conclusive evidence will surface of PED use by guys like Piazza, Bagwell, and Ivan Rodriguez. If that happens, you remove that player from the Hall. It's that simple.

    It'll be interesting to see the % of vote that Bonds and Clemons receive this year. I think their support will go down. That will be a bad sign for drug addicts like Manny and A-Rod.
    Papi won't get in then.
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Luis Tiant should be in, I think. His WAR is high enough.
    So much more deserving than Morris. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

  8. #23
    Let the stat geeks vote, I'm telling you.

    They'll get it right.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fan_since_Boggs View Post
    PED users have distorted history. It is a history that baseball should not celebrate.


    This is totally wrong. Manny was caught cheating twice (two failed tests). Palmerio was caught cheating once. McGwire has now admitted to using PEDs, using the A.Pettitte bullshit excuse: for injuries. A-Rod never failed a test but he admitted to using PEDs while with the Rangers. Moreover, in exchange for immunity, A-Rod testified under oath that he used PEDs while a member of the New York Yankees. Bonds hasn't admitted to it, but he was associated with that clinic. Clemons hasn't admitted to it, but most people think he is lying and there is pretty strong evidence that he took PEDs. The evidence is conclusive enough, but each HOF voter will need to make that decision on his own. If they feel the evidence is there, they shouldn't vote for a Clemons.

    There is a huge difference between the players listed above and the R.Henderson, I.Rodriguez, Piazza types. That is, there is a difference between hard evidence and innuendo. We have hard evidence for the players listed above; innuendo for the second group. Let the second group in, but the HOF should reserve the right to remove players if evidence surfaces after they have been put into the HOF. To be sure, we already have evidence for the first group.

    MLB also operated using a list of banned substances, and several players circumvented that rule by having new substances developed that were not banned. While one can argue it violated the spirit of the law, it did not violate the letter of the law. Bonds is a prime example of this.

    It's also a viable argument that it did not even violate the spirit of the law, since baseball's drug policy at the time was geared to removing cocaine from the game, not steroids. This policy, which included illegal steroids and all illegal drugs, was created to clean up the image of a game tainted by the Pittsburgh Drug Trials, by Steve Howe and his seven lifetime suspensions, by Darryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden, and by the four KC Royals who spent an off-season in prison, among other notable instances. Preventing home runs was not the goal...
    Last edited by notin; 12-23-2017 at 03:07 PM.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    Let the stat geeks vote, I'm telling you.

    They'll get it right.
    All Former players and managers should vote. No sportswriters and absolutely no geeks. People who played the game are in the best position to judge greatness.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    [T]he conclusion to be drawn is that there is no practical value in seeking this ideal lineup, and in that case any way in which it might be meaningfully termed "best" is irrelevant, academic at best, pedantic at worst
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Unlike hot streaks and clutch, the “Cliff” is a myth. It can’t be defined, and it’s future existence cannot be proved.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    All Former players and managers should vote. No sportswriters and absolutely no geeks. People who played the game are in the best position to judge greatness.
    Maybe a cross-section of all those people.

    It was managers who awarded a Gold Glove to Rafael Palmeiro in 1999 when he only played 28 games in the field.

    Aren't you a believer that managers are a bunch of morons?

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Maybe a cross-section of all those people.

    It was managers who awarded a Gold Glove to Rafael Palmeiro in 1999 when he only played 28 games in the field.

    Aren't you a believer that managers are a bunch of morons?
    Former Players would far outweigh the managers. I do believe that managers fall into the idiot category, but they know how to play the game and they know who is good and who is not. What they don't know how to do is manage -- the one thing they are paid to do.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    [T]he conclusion to be drawn is that there is no practical value in seeking this ideal lineup, and in that case any way in which it might be meaningfully termed "best" is irrelevant, academic at best, pedantic at worst
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Unlike hot streaks and clutch, the “Cliff” is a myth. It can’t be defined, and it’s future existence cannot be proved.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Former Players would far outweigh the managers. I do believe that managers fall into the idiot category, but they know how to play the game and they know who is good and who is not. What they don't know how to do is manage -- the one thing they are paid to do.
    Yeah players, managers and coaches should be able to do a batter job than the press. They know the game best and see everything up close.
    "Hating the Yankees like it's a religion since 94'" RIP Mike.


    "It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    All Former players and managers should vote. No sportswriters and absolutely no geeks. People who played the game are in the best position to judge greatness.
    Isn't that what all the veteran's committee bullshit is? They went years and years without electing anyone. Back in the day, players just selected their buddies for the HOF.
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudboy View Post
    Yeah players, managers and coaches should be able to do a batter job than the press. They know the game best and see everything up close.
    They are also a very biased source.
    Fire Farrell - fucking check mark!
    Trade Pedroia
    Sign JD Martinez to play 1B/DH
    Sign Alex Cora for MGR - check plus!

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