A deep, interesting conversation

[CalvnHobs6]

Allrighty, Cedarites and I just finished an intense conversation about baseball and the final four and Milton Bradley, and then it shifted to El Guapo and then to Gagne...Here's some stuff that we talked about, we need some other opinions cause I'm now at a loss for words.

CalvnHobs6 (6:19:18 PM): man he (EL GUAPO) was sick, 7.8 k/9 innings, opp. ba was .227 his whip was 1.33
dandemon (6:19:52 PM): in 02?
CalvnHobs6 (6:19:58 PM): career
dandemon (6:20:08 PM): the whip isn't so great
dandemon (6:20:11 PM): the rest is though
CalvnHobs6 (6:20:30 PM): 1.33 is half decent, i guess not for a reliever tho
dandemon (6:20:45 PM): yeah look at timlin for instance
dandemon (6:20:47 PM): i'm guessing it's lower
dandemon (6:21:59 PM): yeah he's 1.03
dandemon (6:22:07 PM): well last year
dandemon (6:22:12 PM): actually 1.26 career
dandemon (6:22:15 PM): even that's not so great
CalvnHobs6 (6:22:27 PM): well, actually that's decent
dandemon (6:22:36 PM): it's not so bad you're right
CalvnHobs6 (6:22:45 PM): 1.03 is good for #2
dandemon (6:22:47 PM): singles season it isn't great though, the 1.03 is awesome
CalvnHobs6 (6:22:57 PM): he'd be in second place if he was a qualified leader
dandemon (6:23:15 PM): that's why schmidt should have won the nl cy young
dandemon (6:23:19 PM): his whip was 0.95
CalvnHobs6 (6:23:31 PM): yeah, that was pretty ridiculous
dandemon (6:23:54 PM): of course gagne's was better at 0.69, but clearly it's much tougher as a starter
CalvnHobs6 (6:24:07 PM): clearly, it's just that gagne was unstoppable
CalvnHobs6 (6:24:13 PM): like, no one could beat him
dandemon (6:24:33 PM): except blalock haha
CalvnHobs6 (6:24:44 PM): well, as games never count
CalvnHobs6 (6:24:51 PM): i mean, look at gagne's stats
CalvnHobs6 (6:25:00 PM): 1.20 era, .69 whip, 14.98 K/9
CalvnHobs6 (6:25:10 PM): that's prolly the most impressive, the K/9 stats
dandemon (6:25:28 PM): i think it's 37 hits in 82.1 ip
CalvnHobs6 (6:25:33 PM): yup
CalvnHobs6 (6:25:36 PM): only 2 hr
dandemon (6:25:41 PM): all of it is amazing
dandemon (6:25:49 PM): but you wonder if schmidt closed could he do the same thing
CalvnHobs6 (6:26:04 PM): not to mention the k to walk ratio (6.85:1)
CalvnHobs6 (6:26:09 PM): or pedro
dandemon (6:26:14 PM): exactly
CalvnHobs6 (6:26:25 PM): that's interesting to think about
CalvnHobs6 (6:26:35 PM): the save is the most overrated pitching stat i think
CalvnHobs6 (6:26:40 PM): it's just luck of the situation
dandemon (6:26:55 PM): the most overrated
dandemon (6:26:57 PM): hold on
CalvnHobs6 (6:26:58 PM): which is why RBIs are overrated
CalvnHobs6 (6:27:03 PM): you read moneyball?
dandemon (6:27:05 PM): the most overrated is baa against
dandemon (6:27:06 PM): yeah i did
CalvnHobs6 (6:27:10 PM): awesome book
dandemon (6:27:14 PM): yeah it was
CalvnHobs6 (6:27:23 PM): i polished it off in about a day
dandemon (6:27:37 PM): here's my logic about pitching, if ops is such a valuable tool to evaluate hitters, why isn't ops against just as valuable for pitchers?
CalvnHobs6 (6:27:58 PM): hey, post some of the stuff you've been bringing up
CalvnHobs6 (6:28:02 PM): it's deeeep
dandemon (6:28:07 PM): haha not really
dandemon (6:28:10 PM): just stuff i think about
CalvnHobs6 (6:28:25 PM): but that is really good logic
CalvnHobs6 (6:28:46 PM): for a batter, it's how much he can get on base, for a pitcher, you want to know how much you can keep them off base
dandemon (6:28:59 PM): exactly
CalvnHobs6 (6:29:12 PM): people are just starting to realize that BA is insignifcant, and soon enough your logic will catch on
dandemon (6:29:28 PM): now of course as they talk about in moneyball the only defense independent stats are k, bb, and hr, but i think ops against kinda falls into place there
CalvnHobs6 (6:29:55 PM): mmm
CalvnHobs6 (6:29:58 PM): i dunno about that
CalvnHobs6 (6:30:07 PM): cause there's misplayed balls that count as hit
CalvnHobs6 (6:30:08 PM): s
CalvnHobs6 (6:30:14 PM): or errors
CalvnHobs6 (6:30:23 PM): but that's addressed in moneyball too
dandemon (6:30:30 PM): but it's the same thing for a hitter...i didn't mean ops was defense independent i didn't phrase it well
dandemon (6:30:44 PM): i meant in terms of those stats
CalvnHobs6 (6:30:52 PM): eventually that really cool system that they brought up will take over stats, and baseball will be an entirely different sport
CalvnHobs6 (6:30:53 PM): oh ok
CalvnHobs6 (6:31:24 PM): something i forgot about gagne - he used to be a started
CalvnHobs6 (6:31:27 PM): starter*
dandemon (6:31:33 PM): and he wasn't very successful
CalvnHobs6 (6:31:36 PM): right
dandemon (6:31:46 PM): and you think of smoltz and eckersley
dandemon (6:31:55 PM): successful starters but more successful closers
CalvnHobs6 (6:32:20 PM): right, but then there are people who are just born closers
CalvnHobs6 (6:32:24 PM): rivera won't start
CalvnHobs6 (6:32:28 PM): foulke won't start
CalvnHobs6 (6:32:32 PM): they just aren't meant to
CalvnHobs6 (6:32:44 PM): gagne wasn't ever meant to start
dandemon (6:32:56 PM): you mean in terms of their mindsets right?
CalvnHobs6 (6:33:06 PM): sure mindsets, or the way they know how to throw
CalvnHobs6 (6:33:21 PM): they're not endurance type pitchers
dandemon (6:33:29 PM): well gagne is so intense i see that
CalvnHobs6 (6:33:31 PM): prior is bred to throw 9 innings
CalvnHobs6 (6:33:47 PM): gagne is bred for 1-2
dandemon (6:33:49 PM): i'm not so sure, but it's fascinating
CalvnHobs6 (6:33:59 PM): ow, i'm getting a headachee
CalvnHobs6 (6:34:11 PM): maybe we should just post this whole conversation on talksox.com
dandemon (6:34:38 PM): haha go for it
CalvnHobs6 (6:34:49 PM): we should paste it from where you said you liked milton bradley
dandemon (6:35:07 PM): no you can cut all that out
dandemon (6:35:08 PM): start with whip
dandemon (6:35:19 PM): where you said guapo's whip was 1.33


And so I did.
For those who read the whole conversation, or parts of it...any opinions?

[yeszir]

I agree, ops against would be a good stat. Thats as far as i got though.