You can't have it both ways Gomer.

[jacksonianmarch]

You cannot have it both ways. You say that his farm direction and drafting have been terrible since he started, but then say that the 3 world series he won were essentially built for him and he had nothing to do with it. Mostly you call the moves that won us the championships from 98-00 George moves or you just conveniently forget that Cashman was the GM. Then, when you ask what Cashman has done as the yankee GM, you once again conveniently forget those same championships and focus on this one yr. You just arent getting it.

Here's the deal. I will agree with you that the yankee championships were not the brainchild of Brian Cashman because he was a figurehead as yankee GM. He was essentially powerless. He was given a draft budget that nowadays wouldnt allow you to sign your second rounders. All big deals and trades were run through, around and by George Steinbrenner. The only thing Cashman was given, was an INTL FA budget. Something his misses got a lot of pub (Jackson Melian being one of them). But his hits didnt (Cano, Wang, Melky to a degree). Regardless, my point is that the slate was wiped clean on Cashman prior to the 2006 season. That would be yr 2 of the RJ era. This would be the season that Cashman was a free agent per se and demanded the disbanding of the George faction in Tampa. This was the yr that Cashman decided to put his face square on the franchise. And that is where you need to start judging him, IMO.

But you dont. You continually harken back to the terrible farm system days of the early 00s yet say that he hasnt done anything on the big league level by discounting those same yrs when we were winning. Doesnt that sound kinda stupid?

So if you want to start sounding like you are even a tiny bit educated, maybe you should have some sort of analytical thinking when approaching the Brian Cashman topic. It might serve you well.

[a700hitter]

Yankee fans cannibalizing each other. Great fun!

[jacksonianmarch]

Now dont get me wrong, I am not a Cashman homer as much as you think I am. But I can see what he is doing. He is copying Theo's blueprint.

Theo came to power in November of 2002. In the prior season, the sox had 3 starting position players and 1 reliever who were truly home grown (I am not considering Vtek and Lowe homegrown since they were essentially MLB ready by the time the sox got them).

In 2008, the sox have seen 18 of their home grown players appear in a major league game. Youkilis and Pedroia will get MVP votes. Papelbon and Lester will get CY votes. In that span, the sox won the old fashioned big money way (2004) and also paved the way with kids (2007). The fact that they started drafting so well in 03 finally started paying off.

As for Cashman, he finally nabbed a few big budget draft picks in 04 (Hughes) and 05 (Jackson) but was eventually given a large draft budget in 06 and has run with it. Even with this yrs loss of Cole, the draft has a ton of upside, something our drafts from 99-05 really didnt have. If you look at the sox model, they started getting some return on investment in 06, saw a huge return on investment in 07 and it has just jumped significantly this yr as well. Well, our 2008 is very similar to the sox 2006. Injury after injury mixed in with rookie inconsistency and typically reliable guys just not coming through. Well, next yr will be different. And by 2010, we should see something similar to what the sox have. A plethora of young, impactful players as well as a yearly renewable source of talent. Unfortunately, it takes some patience.

For someone who claims to know baseball as much as you do, you have to have seen this yr coming. The run had to end at some point. But there is a difference. With the way we were running things, I was expecting the run to end while we had a ton of huge contracts for guys who arent producing and an absolutely barren farm. Well, that is half right. We now have some contracts for guys who arent producing. But we also have a lot of contracts coming off the books over the next 1+ seasons and our farm is in the best shape it has been in a decade.

[Gom]

Mostly you call the moves that won us the championships from 98-00 George moves or you just conveniently forget that Cashman was the GM. Then, when you ask what Cashman has done as the yankee GM, you once again conveniently forget those same championships and focus on this one yr. You just arent getting it.
No. What I'm saying is what you're saying. That in a draft, it takes at least 3 years to make an impact on the major league club. So if he took over in 98, his players realistically would make the majors in 2001. It would be like a new GM coming in and taking the credit for say...Brackman or Austin Jackson.


Here's the deal. I will agree with you that the yankee championships were not the brainchild of Brian Cashman because he was a figurehead as yankee GM. He was essentially powerless.
Exactly what has he done since he was given power Jacko? Run this team into the ground.

He was given a draft budget that nowadays wouldnt allow you to sign your second rounders. All big deals and trades were run through, around and by George Steinbrenner. The only thing Cashman was given, was an INTL FA budget. Something his misses got a lot of pub (Jackson Melian being one of them). But his hits didnt (Cano, Wang, Melky to a degree).
My point is made for me here. Unless Cashman is given a tremendous advantage, he can't compete with other, more intelligent GM's.

Regardless, my point is that the slate was wiped clean on Cashman prior to the 2006 season. That would be yr 2 of the RJ era. This would be the season that Cashman was a free agent per se and demanded the disbanding of the George faction in Tampa. This was the yr that Cashman decided to put his face square on the franchise. And that is where you need to start judging him, IMO.
Fair enough.

2006:
Division Winner: New York Yankees 97 65 .599 Lost Division Series 3-1

2007:
Wild Card: New York Yankees 94 68 .580 Lost Division Series 3-1

2008:
Likely 4th place finish.


So if you want to start sounding like you are even a tiny bit educated, maybe you should have some sort of analytical thinking when approaching the Brian Cashman topic. It might serve you well.
You think he has earned the right to stay? The team got worse every year since he took "full control" as you defined it.

Class dismissed. Hopefully, so will Cashman's fate.

[yankees228]

97 wins and 94 wins are good years.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is difficult to get through to the intellectually challenged y228. Lets try again.

The quote about Cashman not excelling without an advantage is just plain idiotic. When you are drafting 27th-30th every single yr, you are going to miss the elite talent unless you have some sort of monetary edge. That is the whole point of a reverse draft. Also, if you notice, Cashman has given out one deal over 4 yrs long since 2006, and that was to ARod, whose deal likely will be worth it for the long term. So he is doing EXACTLY what he was re-hired to do. Bridge the gap with shorter term investments while he waits for the drafted players to arrive.

Also, a GM does not win a world series. A GM puts a team together to try and make the playoffs. If the team makes the playoffs, the GM did his duty. Since 2006, this is the only yr he has failed, and that has a lot to do with the fact that we have seen ridiculously high amounts of injuries. They happen. His contingency plans have seen us in the playoff picture into August where the backups just didnt have the stuff to hang in for 3 months. That is okay, IMO.

Lets take a look at the personell moves since he took over in the 2006 offseason.

1. Signed Johnny Damon to a 4 yr deal. As of right now, this is actually looking like a good deal. 2 out of the 3 yrs, he was a very solid leadoff hitter. 2007, he just got off to an abysmal start. Unfortunately, he couldnt hold up in CF, but as it is, he will likely finish 2009 a type A FA. Good Move

2. Claimed Rasner off waivers from the Nats and acquired Jose Veras from the Rangers. Not a big move, but a move that got us a guy whose career MLB ERA is under 5 and could eat innings out of the pen or the rotation. And Veras, prior to his late season bump in the road, was looking like a future close. For what we gave up Good Moves

3. Resigned Matsui to a 4 yr deal. How did he know he'd break his wrist. Only one season of full time baseball, but has continued to produce when on the field. I have to call this a wash, though, since he hasnt played enough to justify the contract, but wasnt a total bust when he was on the field. Wash

4. Signed Farnsworth, Myers, Villone, and Williams. The Farnsworth deal was the only one where there was an actual commitment and it blew up in our face. The rest were mediocre to useless. Bad Moves

5. Traded for Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle, giving up Matt Smith and CJ Henry. Well, Henry was back in our minor leagues this yr and Smith is on the mend with TJ and may never play again. All the while, Abreu has given up 2 and a half solid seasons for us and Lidle was serviceable before his untimely death. VERY good move

6. 2006 draft and INTL signing period. Probably the best yankee draft and signing period you will see in a LONG while. (The sox 2005 certainly rivals it). Kennedy, Chamberlain, McAllister, Curtis, Kontos, Hilligoss, Betances, Melancon, McCutchen, Patterson, Robertson were all from the draft and have spent time on the Yankee top 50 (most in the top 20). Montero, Urena, Heredia, Pirela to name a few in the INTL forum. All are in the top 50 for the yankees right now (and 2 are gonna be in the top 5 this yr, and both likely to break the BA top 100) Great moves

7. Resigned Moose to a 2 yr deal. His second season is making this look like a good deal. Good Move

8. Traded away Wright, Johnson, and Sheffield for a pile of prospects. To be honest with you, I consider this a lateral move. The Johnson deal allowed us to get guys we later dealt in the Marte/Nady deal as well as Gonzalez who we dealt to the Nats to get Jhonny Nunez. Vizcaino gave us a solid season as a reliever and then allowed us to draft Jeremy Bleich when he left to go to COL. The Wright deal gave us a SWB shuttle reliever for absolutely nothing. The Sheffield deal dealt away a guy with zero place on this team (which was confirmed with the resurgence of Giambi) and got 3 high end arms. Sanchez should be making an impact next yr, while the other 2 are further away. When you deal off 36 million dollars of chaffe and get high end arms as well as the ammo to make a deal for better, more useful players, then you are doing something right. Lateral Move

9. Signed Andy Pettitte to a 2 yr deal. He was awesome last yr and was solid through the first half of this yr. But has struggled down the stretch. I gotta say he was worth it, though. Good Move

10. Signed Juan Miranda from Cuba, who will be in the MLB mix next season. Not a bad INTL sign. Good Move

11. Signed Kei Igawa. Abysmal move for the money. Abysmal Move

12. Signed Raja. Bad Move

13. Traded Proctor for Betemit. Something that is turning out to be a lateral move. Lateral Move

14. Claimed Brian Bruney. Very good move Good move

15. Signed Posada to a 4 yr deal. 1 yr in, it looks like a bad move. Bad Move

16. Signed Mo to a 3 yr deal. 1 yr in, it looks like a great move. Great Move

17. Signed Latroy Hawkins. Bad Move

18. Acquired Jose Molina for Jeff Kennard (who was just DFAd yesterday). Great Move

19. Traded Clippard for Albaladejo. 1 yr in, this looks like a lateral move since Alby looked very solid before he got a stress fracture in his elbow and Clip has been meh in AAA for the Nats. Lateral Move

20. Signed ARod to a 10 yr deal. 1 yr in, and ARod is playing very well. Time will tell

21. Did not deal for Johan Santana. I think this is the biggest point of contention between Gom and I. 1 yr in, this looks like a bad move. But if CC falls to us in FA AND the kids stay on schedule, then this is a great move. Time will tell

22. Trade for Marte and Nady. This gives us our RFer for 2009, allowing Abreu to walk while netting us 2 picks and gives us a lefty setup man that we have been looking for, through 2009. Great Move

23. Traded Farns for Pudge. Both have sucked since. Lateral move

There arent too many clunkers on this list Gomer. I think the only point of contention that you and I have is the Santana deal, and I dont think it was a bad move to pass on the talent needed and the money needed to secure this guy. I also think his acquisition wouldnt have kept us from free falling out of the playoffs this yr. Now if we sign CC in the offseason, we essentially get a guy who can perform up to Santana's level without having to give up key MiLB talent while holding out for one season where the ace level performance wouldnt have made a difference anyway. If we dont get CC, then Cash better hope Hughes is ready for 2009.

[jacksonianmarch]

Also, dont forget the 2007 Draft and INTL signing period.

Brackman, Romine, Pope, Suttle, Sublett, Angelini, Barreda, Laird have all seen spots in the yankees top 50, while Romine, Brackman and Suttle are likely to see a top 10 spot. The INTL forum saw De Leon, Sosa, and Vizcaino enter the fray. Sosa and De Leon are shaping up to be two of the best bats from that period and Vizcaino looks like the best arm.

And then, finally the 2008 draft and INTL signing period. The loss of Cole and Bittle hurt, but the compensatory picks in 2009 make their loss a lot more palatable. The haul from the draft class still looks very, very solid. Bleich, Joseph, Adams, Marshall, Higashioka, Brewer, O'Brien, Richardson, Phelps, Turley, and Lassiter look to be top 50 players with Marshall being a potential top 10 guy. The INTL forum, though missing on Inoa, saw the yankees nab 3 of the top 11 ranked players in Gian Arias, Yeicok Calderon, and Ramon Flores. We also beat the league to the punch in February by signing Banuelos (who will be a top 10 prospect) and Alfredo Aceves who is in the big leagues, starting for us right now.

The fact of the matter is, Cashman's MLB moves kept us in it. They werent blockbuster, jaw dropping, Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell moves. But they were solid major league moves that allowed out team to average a 56-57% winning percentage over the three seasons. He didnt have too many clunkers. And while he was doing this, he restocked the farm system with high ceiling minor league talent. And if you look at the players he has drafted, very few of them have missed right off the bat since 2006. Almost all of the guys he went over slot for have produced in their first few seasons.

Now as I have stated before, the draft moves and the INTL signees were the work of Damon Oppenheimer who came aboard in 2006, prior to the draft. So, while my synopsis has the draft and signees under Cashman's guise, it was his right hand man who made the moves.

[ORS]

I love the top-50 stuff. It's not like they are top-50 in baseball, but the Yankee system top-50. Who the eff cares? "Oh look, he drafted 10 top-50 players in that draft!", as if one shouldn't automatically assume the top 10 picks from each of the last 5 drafts (about 5 years to develop MLB players, give or take) make up the top-50. It's like giving him credit for breathing.

[rician blast]

Theo came to power in November of 2002.

The Sox appointed him as their GM in 2002.

He did not, and still has not, IMO, "come into power".

I believe Larry Lucchino is "the power" when it comes to Sox baseball operations.

[jacksonianmarch]

I love the top-50 stuff. It's not like they are top-50 in baseball, but the Yankee system top-50. Who the eff cares? "Oh look, he drafted 10 top-50 players in that draft!", as if one shouldn't automatically assume the top 10 picks from each of the last 5 drafts (about 5 years to develop MLB players, give or take) make up the top-50. It's like giving him credit for breathing.

when your system goes from 28th in baseball to top 5, then the recent top 50 counts.

[ORS]

when your system goes from 28th in baseball to top 5, then the recent top 50 counts.
Nonsense. It's an internal top-50. It's always there. Nothing in the way you used it makes it relative to something external, so the quality of it is indeterminant.

[26 to 6]

4. Signed Farnsworth, Myers, Villone, and Williams. The Farnsworth deal was the only one where there was an actual commitment and it blew up in our face. The rest were mediocre to useless. Bad Moves
Who? Only Williams I off-hand recall was Bernie.

[jacksonianmarch]

yep

[26 to 6]

oh alright lol, you had him mentioned among a bunch of middle relievers and I'm thinking to myself "We havent had anyone named Williams in the bullpen" :lol:

my bad...got u.

[jacksonianmarch]

Okay ORS. How about this. He has drafted and signed multiple players with very high upside, rather than the safe, limited ceiling picks of yrs past. Better?

[Gom]

It is difficult to get through to the intellectually challenged y228. Lets try again.

The quote about Cashman not excelling without an advantage is just plain idiotic. When you are drafting 27th-30th every single yr, you are going to miss the elite talent unless you have some sort of monetary edge.
Baseball is not like other sports. Some players drop to the Yankees due to their demands. Their drafting position is not as poor as you make it out to be.

With you analysis of his moves...I agree with your assessment of 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 11, 12-20, 22-23. I will now debate the other ones.:


3. Resigned Matsui to a 4 yr deal. How did he know he'd break his wrist. Only one season of full time baseball, but has continued to produce when on the field. I have to call this a wash, though, since he hasnt played enough to justify the contract, but wasnt a total bust when he was on the field. Wash
Matsui has not stayed on the field, and giving a guy a long extension after major injuries is a bad move. Tied up too much money for no reason. 13 million a year for a guy who can no longer stay healthy is a big waste.


6. 2006 draft and INTL signing period. Probably the best yankee draft and signing period you will see in a LONG while. (The sox 2005 certainly rivals it). Kennedy, Chamberlain, McAllister, Curtis, Kontos, Hilligoss, Betances, Melancon, McCutchen, Patterson, Robertson were all from the draft and have spent time on the Yankee top 50 (most in the top 20). Montero, Urena, Heredia, Pirela to name a few in the INTL forum. All are in the top 50 for the yankees right now (and 2 are gonna be in the top 5 this yr, and both likely to break the BA top 100) Great moves
My thing is your analysis of "great moves". If you want to consider Joba a great draft, I'm ok with that. However, not a single player is a full-time contributor, and the one pitcher has been injured. Let's agree on one thing. Until a minor league player is a) contributing on the major league level at more than a bench/role player role or b) is traded for one that is...let's refrain from calling him a "great move". My biggest thing with your analysis is that you bestow pseudo-legendary status on players who haven't seen the inside of a major league stadium without a ticket. Kennedy has COST us more games then I care to count. If we had...say Johan Santana, we would have gained nearly 4 games in the loss column this year...and that alone would have made our September relevant. So until they get up here or until they are traded for someone, they are inconsequential.

8. Traded away Wright, Johnson, and Sheffield for a pile of prospects. To be honest with you, I consider this a lateral move. The Johnson deal allowed us to get guys we later dealt in the Marte/Nady deal as well as Gonzalez who we dealt to the Nats to get Jhonny Nunez. Vizcaino gave us a solid season as a reliever and then allowed us to draft Jeremy Bleich when he left to go to COL. The Wright deal gave us a SWB shuttle reliever for absolutely nothing. The Sheffield deal dealt away a guy with zero place on this team (which was confirmed with the resurgence of Giambi) and got 3 high end arms. Sanchez should be making an impact next yr, while the other 2 are further away. When you deal off 36 million dollars of chaffe and get high end arms as well as the ammo to make a deal for better, more useful players, then you are doing something right. Lateral Move
These were bad moves Jacko. We got nothing for them. The fact that we didn't need them is irrelevant. However, the teams that got all the players got more from them then we did. When given a chance to make a real deal where money was not a great factor [and advantage] he did nothing of value.


9. Signed Andy Pettitte to a 2 yr deal. He was awesome last yr and was solid through the first half of this yr. But has struggled down the stretch. I gotta say he was worth it, though. Good Move
I would say a wash at best. $16 million for a .500 pitcher this season is terrible. Last year, he did adequate. If he had retired and we had gotten Johan, this team would be fighting for the wild card. He gambled on Pettitte and not on Johan, and lost on both accounts.


10. Signed Juan Miranda from Cuba, who will be in the MLB mix next season. Not a bad INTL sign. Good Move
Let's wait till he contribures up in the big show first. A non-move as of yet.

21. Did not deal for Johan Santana. I think this is the biggest point of contention between Gom and I. 1 yr in, this looks like a bad move. But if CC falls to us in FA AND the kids stay on schedule, then this is a great move. Time will tell
The main reason for his dismissal, and you would call it a "time will tell" move. Not trading for Santana will be the mark that forever follows this idiot. Posada said "We need a No. 1. We certainly need a No. 1, and I think that's the reason we're going after Santana. It is a need in October, no question about it," Posada said. "I think when you look at the past World Series champions they were able to have a No. 1 throwing three games, or at least two games, to win the title." Follow the link here. (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/11/the_yankees_need_to_get.html) Gene Michael said the same thing. Cashman bet on Hughes and Kennedy to carry the team's rotation. He bet wrong. The Mets will play October baseball. The Yankees won't. The main reason is they got Johan, and we didn't. How you could call this anything but a DISASTER is beyond me. CC coming to the Yankees is irrelevant. My own eyes and every scout outside of the Yankees say that Kennedy will never amount to more than a 5th starter. You and Cashman say different. Hughes is looking like the second coming of Pavano to me. He's had a bad groin, back, shoulder or elbow I think, poor eyesight....considering that Cashman's seeming requirement for drafting pitchers is at least one major surgery to get a signing bonus, he's relatively healthy by his standards. This move alone should cause him to be fired.

Jacko...you also forgot the Pavano deal. The non-deal for Sabathia. This year's draft debacle. Not signing Lilly, who literally begged to come back to NY. Not signing Mahay and opting instead of Hawkins.

He's done nothing. Reinstate Stick Michael and the Red Sox and Rays will start to worry. Keep Cashman, and they will be laughing for years to come. Rumor has it from Lohud blog that Cashman may be out the door. I can only pray it's true.