Yankees need patience with young guns

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10052008/sports/yankees/yanks_need_to_have_patience_with_young_g_132152.ht m

I agree completely. A lot of these young guns come up and struggle off the bat. But a glance at the White Sox will show you what we need to mimic. Patience with the kids.

[ORS]

I think we need one catch-all thread where you and Gom post only the articles that agree with polar opposite and extreme ends of the spectrum. You guys can have at it, hell, for Sox fans it's entertaining, but I for one am tiring of the disjointed nature of the discussion as each of you puts each new article supporting your side on display as a stand-alone point. It's really all part of the same discussion.

[Coco's Disciples]

"The Official Jacko and Gom Playhouse"

[Gom]

It is all part of the same discussion. At this point, you have to hold on to Hughes and Kennedy. Their value is so low right now, you wouldn't get any value for them. Better to let the Yankee hype machine go into overdrive.

I, for one, completely agree with Sherman [the author of the article]. He advocated the trade for Santana, he stresses the fragility of Hughes and the lack of ability that is Kennedy. He states that the Yankees need to sign two starters to go along with Joba, Wang, and Mussina/Pettitte, putting both "phenoms" in the minors. It's actually a very common sense article. There isn't a single thing I disagree with in the entire article.

[BoSox21]

The idea of rebuilding with youth is that you're gonna suck for at least a year or two while the young guys learn to grow and develop while understanding and thriving under the pressure of being cornerstones of the team. Can that be done in New York? With that media? With that fanbase? With a new stadium? With Hank? I don't think so

[jacksonianmarch]

It depends. The sox did it with youth on the fly because they werent leaned upon. The rest of the team was veteran and the kids came up with as little pressure as they could have in Boston. I think the idea of holding down 4 slots with vets in the rotation and leaving that last spot for Joba or Hughes is a sound one. Starting the yr off with 2 slots dedicated to rookies isnt the best way to perform.

[Dojji]

Woth remembering that the Sox did still have the suck-year in '06 while "the kids" (Youk, Paps, Lester, Delcarmen, Hansen, Wily Mo, Pedroia) settled into their new roles or started the process of playing their way out of Boston.

[ORS]

Also, the Sox made moves to get young outside their own house. They didn't fall overly in love with their prospects when they acquired Beckett. They spent the coin to get Matsuzaka. They only moved the malcontent when they were getting a young all-star to replace him.

[BoSox21]

It depends. The sox did it with youth on the fly because they werent leaned upon. The rest of the team was veteran and the kids came up with as little pressure as they could have in Boston. I think the idea of holding down 4 slots with vets in the rotation and leaving that last spot for Joba or Hughes is a sound one. Starting the yr off with 2 slots dedicated to rookies isnt the best way to perform.

True, the Sox executed the transition perfectly but how many organizations can execute a series of 3-4 drafts with the kind of success the Sox did to have a Papelbon, Lester, Pedroia, Youkilis, Masterson, Delcarmen and Ellsbury all come up at relatively the same time and thrive? I can't think of another team that has benefited from the farm team as much as the Sox in recent years.

And when they do rely on a rookie to hold down the last spot in the rotation and he flames out, as Buchholz did, they Sox had that contigency plan with Masterson, Colon and then Byrd. The best the Yankees could realistically do with replacing Hughes and Kennedy was bring in Rasner, Igawa and Ponson.

[Gom]

It depends. The sox did it with youth on the fly because they werent leaned upon. The rest of the team was veteran and the kids came up with as little pressure as they could have in Boston. I think the idea of holding down 4 slots with vets in the rotation and leaving that last spot for Joba or Hughes is a sound one. Starting the yr off with 2 slots dedicated to rookies isnt the best way to perform.

Wow. It looks like you finally have come around. Good job, Jacko. You've finally seen my point. The thing is, at most, you can realistically bring up 1, at most 2 players and have them be impact players. Depending on more than that is a recipe for disaster. Now, since the Yankees have acquired some farm system depth, is the time to use this depth, either by trading them away or signing free agents and losing some of the depth due to lost draft picks. Either way.

The truth is, the 5th spot in the rotation should always be an open competition. I would have no problem if Hughes and Kennedy battled it out for the last slot, along with some cast off veteran [Rasner, Ponson, etc.]. Same for the last spot or two in the bullpen [one if you go with a 5 man bullpen, 2 if a 6 man rotation]. This allows the players to come in and take their lumps and succeed or fail. This is nothing earth-shattering. Most teams do this. Considering the injury risk of pitchers in general, especially Pavano-Lite, the Yankees need a minimum of 6 starters going into next season.

[jacksonianmarch]

After dominating his first 2 starts in the AFL, Hughes was crushed today, allowing 7ER in 2.1IP. But there was a reason. He had a blister that caused his early exit and leaves him questionable for his next start. Apparently, he's working in a 2 seamer and a cutter to round out his repertoire. We'll see if he feels comfortable throwing them next season to MLB hitters. Apparently the pitches have been pretty good in terms of location and movement

[a700hitter]

I don't think Hughes or kennedy will be in the plans for the 2009 Yankees except as trade bait, and the two players have done their best to devalue themselves on that front. They may get a cll up to spot start and they are one or two bad outings away from being sent into oblivion with Kei Igawa.

[Coco's Disciples]

I disagree, I think they still regard Hughes highly, and he could very well be their 5.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree. I would not be surprised if we started the yr with Joba in the 4 and Hughes in the 5. I also wouldnt be surprised if Joba is the 5 and Hughes is in AAA

[Gom]

After dominating his first 2 starts in the AFL, Hughes was crushed today, allowing 7ER in 2.1IP. But there was a reason. He had a blister that caused his early exit and leaves him questionable for his next start. Apparently, he's working in a 2 seamer and a cutter to round out his repertoire. We'll see if he feels comfortable throwing them next season to MLB hitters. Apparently the pitches have been pretty good in terms of location and movement

Jacko, can these guys ever do bad in your eyes? Why is there an excuse for every poor performance?

I agree. I would not be surprised if we started the yr with Joba in the 4 and Hughes in the 5. I also wouldnt be surprised if Joba is the 5 and Hughes is in AAA

I hope we trade this douche [Hughes] for Peavy. If there is one thing I hope Cashman learned is not to go with rookies in the rotation ever again.

I love how Cashman is now going after the players this year instead of last year. All that's happened this year from last year is this:

Misses:

The run of post-season appearances end with a 3rd place finish.

The Yankees are not as attractive a destination to free agents due to the emergence of Tampa and the continued high-level playing of Boston.

The major impact players in the farm system all took a step back, some of them huge [Hughes, Kennedy, Jackson].

The current crop that is the nucleus of the team got older and is more susceptible to decline [Jeter, Arod, Posada, Mariano, Pettitte].

Did not sign the 1st or 3rd round picks from this draft, and the 2nd pick needs surgery.

Hits:

Traded prospects for Nady and Marte.

Possible emergence of Coke as 7th inning reliever.


The sad thing is that you're preaching the same failed policy. I have no problem with patience for young players. However, another opportunity may exist to get another ace pitcher in his prime. However, to get him, you will have to probably sacrifice more in prospects due to his contract situation, and his desire to play elsewhere. Also, it is not a must-trade for San Diego. You have a lot more variables, pitcher park, weak NL West division, etc. Peavy is more of a risk than Johan, and you will have to give up more to get him than Johan. Also, you will give up draft picks galore to sign these players the Yankees are targeting.

I can understand not wanting to give up a prospect [like Kennedy, even though any sane baseball person will tell you he's a non-prospect] for say a Fuentes. I don't agree with it, but I can see the logic.

To get an ace starting pitcher in his prime? That's another story.

Jacko, seriously, look at young pitchers as penny stocks. They're a dime a dozen, most don't amount to anything, and once in a while, you'll find a gem. Take a look at last year.

Most Red Sox fans [and probably members of their front office as well] favored Buchholz over Lester. The Yankees #3 on the future trio was Chamberlain. Huhges was #1, followed by Kennedy. We see how that worked out. Now this year you're touting Coke and Robertson as mainstays. There is a baseball saying:

"Young pitchers will break your heart".

As Yogi said...

"It's deja vu all over again."

[26 Reasons to Hate Us]

Wasn't there an article almost exactly like this one around this time last year?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

This is exactly what I thought about Phil Hughes when I saw him pitch against the Red Sox early this year:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10262008/sports/yankees/yanks_decision_looking_bad_135306.htm

He has decent velocity (nothing amazing) with no movement. His changeup is a never-ending work in progress that isn't coming around and never dominated. His curveball can be good but its more of a "show me" pitch than one a hitter fears.

[TheKilo]

Clay Buchholz:

Decent fastball in terms of velocity, cannot control it, more of a "show me" pitch.

Curveball can be good but also has inconsistencies throwing it for strikes.

Changeup his best pitch but hitters found it easy to lay off of this season.

[Gom]

The very best the Yankees can do is to fool another team into thinking these players can be servicable major leaguers. Throw them in the minors, hope they have a good start, and trade them to some unsuspecting team at the trade deadline.