Breaking News: Manny Suspended 50 Games for PEDs

[Keeper]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-manny-ramirez8-2009may08,0,6324894.story

Discuss.

[msubulldogs21]

Um, wow.

Jason Bay > Manny

[BoSox21]

Manny Ramirez has tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs and will be suspended 50 games starting today, The Times has learned.

The test result and suspension is expected to be announced later today. The Dodgers informed triple-A outfielder Xavier Paul this morning that he was being promoted to Los Angeles.

Ramirez is expected to attribute the test results to medication received from a doctor for a personal medical issue, according to a source familiar with matter but not authorized to speak publicly.

With the suspension taking effect with tonight's game at Dodger Stadium, Ramirez will not be eligible to return to the team until July 3.

- LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-manny-ramirez8-2009may08,0,6324894.story

[Keeper]

Haha, just beat you to it.

[BSN07]

Holy shit. Kind of surprising but not really.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Holy fucking shit, you have GOT to be kidding me. No fucking way. No. Fucking. Way.

I have no analysis. I have no discussion. All I have to say is holy. Fucking. SHIT.

No way.

[BoSox21]

Haha, just beat you to it.

slut.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Never mind.

[das11209]

Never mind.

ESPN says PED

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907

[BSN07]

Manny Ramirez has tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs and will be suspended 50 games starting today, The Times has learned.

[schillingouttheks]

Disappointed, not surprised.

[BSN07]

I wonder if he will come under the same scrutiny as all the others who have benn busted one way or another. He has a built in "stupidity" clause though...

[BoSox21]

It still surprises me. Call me naive but it still surprises me.

[Keeper]

I think "disappointed, not surprised" will be the general consensus on this one.

Looks like Conseco has struck again with his accuracy.

[BSN07]

Disappointed, not surprised.

The same.


So is he still one of the best RH hitters ever?


T minus 2 minutes and counting before we get flooded by Yankees spunk and there lame attempts to taunt us over Manny's use. Of course it's only to be expected after what they have endured over the past couple seasons.

[BoSox21]

well, you know what this means...

no more saying the Yankees winning game 7 in '03 is tainted cause Giambi hit two HRs

[das11209]

I think "disappointed, not surprised" will be the general consensus on this one.

Manny being Manny.

In today's world - baseball is probably as scrutinized as the financial market. You hardly hear any big name getting caught any more at best you hear someone like Romero. Most important ball players have stopped doing it all-together - too risky.

[Keeper]

You know Yankee fans are licking their chops right now. It won't be long before they swarm in here.

[BSN07]

well, you know what this means...

no more saying the Yankees winning game 7 in '03 is tainted cause Giambi hit two HRs

Saying that would be dumb and pointless anyways.

[BSN07]

You know Yankee fans are licking their chops right now. It won't be long before they swarm in here.

They will try and ultimately fail. Manny is in LA, tested positive in LA. They can speculate as much as they feel like about his time in Boston.

[Keeper]

I wonder what this does to the Dodgers. Are they still the team to beat in that division?

[das11209]

They will try and ultimately fail. Manny is in LA, tested positive in LA. They can speculate as much as they feel like about his time in Boston.

To be fair - Selina Roberts only specualted that A-Rod did not stop taking PED when he came to the Yankees.

[BSN07]

To be fair - Selina Roberts only specualted that A-Rod did not stop taking PED when he came to the Yankees.

I'll give her speculation a little more credit. Professional journalist> Yankee apologist on a Red Sox message board...

[BSN07]

I wonder what this does to the Dodgers. Are they still the team to beat in that division?

This screws over the Dodgers bad. After all that shit they went through to get the guy to come to the team this winter, this happens.

There lineup isn't the same without Manny plain and simple.


Trading Manny and bringing in Bay might have been one of Theo's better moves from a PR standpoint lol

[das11209]

Trading Manny and bringing in Bay might have been one of Theo's better moves from a PR standpoint lol

That trade looks lot better for Theo now than it did last summar.

Can he trade Ortiz before he becomes breaking news?

Edit - I take it back - don't think Papi is doing PED any more.

[Keeper]

I agree about the Dodgers. They were a .500 team without him last year. Don't see why that would change now.

[das11209]

I agree about the Dodgers. They were a .500 team without him last year. Don't see why that would change now.

They always have a chance in the weakest division of MLB.

[schillingouttheks]

If he is doing it in LA, he did it in Boston. You know it, I know it.

It doesn't matter. They all do it.

[Spudboy]

I too am disappointed, but not surprised. It's disappointing because as much of jerk he was most of the time, I bought into the idea that he was one of the great hitters of all time. Certainly during the 40+ years I've been watching the game. What an ass. He appeared to be a "Natural" athlete. I don't know what drugs he took and I don't know how his performance was effected. I am glad he is in L.A., not Boston.
Of course there will be all types of speculation and claims about his using while with the Sox. He is a turd.

[rician blast]

Not surprised, not disgusted, not really even dissapointed. Just confirms my suspicions.

I've been saying for a long, long time that PED use was much more widespread than most want to admit, and that I understand why these guys do what they do...and Manny is just another name that has been confirmed on my own list of PED users.

Now of course the talk will be how far back does this go? Considering he played with Albert Belle, one of the biggest juicers of the 90's (IMO), I'm guessing Belle wasn't the only one injecting himself in that Indians clubhouse (from that partiicular time period and team I also suspect Thome, Grissom, Justice, Williams, Sorrento, Sexson, to name a few). Certainly could make one look at Manny's 1999 season stats a lot differently, his numbers that year were unfucking real..

Of course he'll say he only did it this time, to heal from some nagging injury or deal with some medical problem, and he has no idea how he could have tested positive.

Make no mistake though...he got caught but he is far from the only one doing the stuff...just because a player doesn't test positive doesn't mean they're innocent. They're virtually all tainted now.

[26 to 6]

Wow. Wow.
Wow.


How does it feel?


well, you know what this means...

no more saying the Yankees winning game 7 in '03 is tainted cause Giambi hit two HRs
Exactly.

Although it's nice to have this leverage, I'm very disappointed. I do really like Manny a lot and this is just terrible for him and the game. Damn. How stupid do you have to be to use today with the testing programs in place.

[Coco's Disciples]

Not too shocking, but I guess I've been numbed by everyone else who's gotten caught.

But really, holy shit.

[26 to 6]

They will try and ultimately fail. Manny is in LA, tested positive in LA. They can speculate as much as they feel like about his time in Boston.
Well then if that's the case nobody can say shit about A-Rod using as a Yankee. If you really think Manny's use began in Los Angeles you're foolish. He and Papi probably had a lil something something goin on in the Fenway clubhouse bathrooms (just as Canseco and McGwire did, just as Clemens and Pettitte did, etc.)

[Coco's Disciples]

Wow. Wow.
Wow.


How does it feel?

I guess it's disappointing, but he wasn't the only member to use and we all know it. This is not an uncommon thing anymore.

[Coco's Disciples]

Well then if that's the case nobody can say shit about A-Rod using as a Yankee. If you really think Manny's use began in Los Angeles you're foolish. He and Papi probably had a lil something something goin on in the Fenway clubhouse bathrooms (just as Canseco and McGwire did, just as Clemens and Pettitte did, etc.)

So that's what he was doing behind the monster...

[schillingouttheks]

Can we seriously can the fucking Red Sox and Yankees thing? It's not even close to the point. If people really thought there were only clean players on the Red Sox, they're retarded.

Oh, and for the record 26, you didn't gain any "leverage". Ours is just gone. It's now neutral, as it really was all along. No one can blame anything on PEDs since they're so common.

[Coco's Disciples]

Can we seriously can the fucking Red Sox and Yankees thing? It's not even close to the point. If people really thought there were only clean players on the Red Sox, they're retarded.

Oh, and for the record 26, you didn't gain any "leverage". Ours is just gone. It's now neutral, as it really was all along. No one can blame anything on PEDs since they're so common.

Yeah, this is beyond Sox-Yanks. Players cheated on both sides, we can't "deduce" anything about what wins are tainted.

[CrespoBlows]

OWNED

[rician blast]

I'd say that the chances that he did PEDs in LA only are roughly equivalent to the odds that my great grandmother grew a finger nail on her cock.

He did 'em in Cleveland and Boston too, of that I am very confident. Proof? Don't need it.

[schillingouttheks]

I'd say that the chances that he did PEDs in LA only are roughly equivalent to the odds that my great grandmother grew a finger nail on her cock.

He did 'em in Cleveland, of that I am very confident. Proof? Don't need it.

This.

[Coco's Disciples]

^ I don't think there's any debate he used in Boston. Probably Cleveland too. Hell, maybe his high school.

[Ray10]

Honestly im not surprised AT ALL. It's Manny number one and most players are doing this stuff nowadays anyways. I've said from day one that i bet Manny was doing some sort of PED's.

[MANNYHOF24]

Before I make a judgment, I want to learn a little more information. I want specifics. He said in the article that he passed 15 drug tests in the last five years, so until we know what he used I am not going to judge him yet. I think the probability that he used now is incredibly high though, which is very disapointing to me. I would say this revelation is going to bring some scrutiny to David Ortiz as well.

[TedWilliams101]

Same boat as the "disappointed, not surprised". Manny had always (maybe still is) been my favorite player (of those I've actually watched).

I think that, even though Manny's now a Dodger, this probably isn't very good news for Ortiz. You can honestly now question whether Ortiz' dramatic drop (disappearance) of power after Manny left is just coincidence. Bad bad situation for him. A scrub in Minnesota, he comes to the Sox, slugs besides Manny, Manny leaves, and so does Ortiz' power. Not good.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Well, fuck this. I'm surprised. Fuck baseball.

[a700hitter]

He says it wasn't steroids, and he say that he passed 15 tests over the past 5 years. What substance did he get nailed for? Amphetimines?

[Coco's Disciples]

Well, fuck this. I'm surprised. Fuck baseball.

Get used to it.

[ORS]

Before I make a judgment, I want to learn a little more information. I want specifics. He said in the article that he passed 15 drug tests in the last five years, so until we know what he used I am not going to judge him yet. I think the probability that he used now is incredibly high though, which is very disapointing to me. I would say this revelation is going to bring some scrutiny to David Ortiz as well.
This is about right for where we are in this story.

That said, like most, disappointed but not surprised. Disappointed in the sense that Manny is special hitter, still is in my eyes, his approach and swing are close to unparalleled, but this casts doubt on how truly great he really was.

[Teddyballgame10]

He says it wasn't steroids, and he say that he passed 15 tests over the past 5 years. What substance did he get nailed for? Amphetimines?

Yes this I don't get. Need to wait for specifics,

[ORS]

He says it wasn't steroids, and he say that he passed 15 tests over the past 5 years. What substance did he get nailed for? Amphetimines?
If it's not a steroid, this would be my guess. Ritalyn will trigger a positive test result, as it should since it's pretty powerful stimulant. The point is, a lot of stuff doc's prescribe regularly could result in a positive. Of course, it's up to the player to consult the MLBPA or MLB to see if the prescription is acceptable.

[ORS]

A scrub in Minnesota, he comes to the Sox, slugs besides Manny, Manny leaves, and so does Ortiz' power. Not good.
If this is a valid thought process to you, I recommend gloves for your hands to protect your knuckles when they drag and a screen to keep bugs out of your mouth.

[RedSoxRooter]

Yep. Here's my steroid rule: If you played in the late 80s or 90s, or began your career in the 90s, you used steroids until they were banned by the league. Then you switched to HGH and whetever elite athletes use today.

So I'm not surprised. I'd say Pujols, Ortiz and Howard will eventually be outed as well.

I don't really judge players anymore either. I'd deny them the HOF if caught but I don't hate them for using. It's just the way it was back then.

[ACL BoSox]

I will continue the sentiment of "disapointed, not surprised" - I'm just glad its the Dodger's problem and not ours. Would not want to have to deal with that distraction.

[Optimist]

Genuinely shocked. Don't know how I continue to be surprised at these stories...<_<

[BoSox21]

why is it so wrong to be surprised when a big-named player gets outed? I, for one, am glad I don't automatically assume anyone who hit over 30 HRs at any point past 1985 is on PEDs.

[Jasonbay44]

Not really surprised but Im really disappointed to see this. But from my understanding he recently took a banned substance, so he wasn't juiced his whole career right?

Edit: Never mind I didn't read the article yet, from what Ive understood, he never actually took steroids, just PED for any injury....Still very disappointed to hear this news....

[das11209]

I am more shocked that he took the risk to shame his legacy as the best hitter of the generation than to know actually he did it. What could it be to motivate him to take PED at this stage of his career ? - it is a loose/loose situation.

Baseball testing is so strict that a well respected player like Manny just should not have done it. It is like you see a cop car - and decide to speed to get caught - I don't get it. If this was last year when he was playing for a contact - it would have made some sense.

[ORS]

why is it so wrong to be surprised when a big-named player gets outed? I, for one, am glad I don't automatically assume anyone who hit over 30 HRs at any point past 1985 is on PEDs.
Where is it written that this needs to be the assumption to be unsurprised? I don't assume anyone has used PEDs, but I've already allowed for the possibility that they all have in my mind, therefore, none of this surprises me.

[TedWilliams101]

If this is a valid thought process to you, I recommend gloves for your hands to protect your knuckles when they drag and a screen to keep bugs out of your mouth.

It's not, I'm simply stating that there will probably be a lot of speculation over Ortiz now. There are some coincidences there and obviously people will question his decline in power. I believe it's mostly his injury, mechanical problems, and timing. But, it's still gonna get speculated now. Ortiz really hasn't had much speculation in the past, that's likely to change now.

[ACL BoSox]

Hmm... a new development

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ak2snRXrYAecGa81MfUM0Po5nYcB?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


“The substance is not a steroid and it is not human-growth hormone,” the source said.

[TedWilliams101]

I am more shocked that he took the risk to shame his legacy as the best hitter of the generation than to know actually he did it. What could it be to motivate him to take PED at this stage of his career ? - it is a loose/loose situation.

Baseball testing is so strict that a well respected player like Manny just should not have done it. It is like you see a cop car - and decide to speed to get caught - I don't get it. If this was last year when he was playing for a contact - it would have made some sense.

I was thinking the same thing myself, but that is only if what he is claiming is true. It is now likely that he has been a PED user all along, but just hasn't been caught until now.

I'm hoping that he was simply stupid and took a legitimate prescription drug without realizing it would trigger a positive test... but I'm not optimistic. Odds are, he is/has been a user.

[arbitrary]

Manny was caught smoking the chronic! Maybe its to Manny like spinach is to Popeye.

[ACL BoSox]

At least not on the baseball diamond. The source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the substance is supposed to boost sex drive. It is not Viagra, but a substance that treats the cause rather providing a temporary boost in sexual performance, the source said.

GOOD LORD! He was taking SEX ENHANCING DRUGS!

[ORS]

I was thinking the same thing myself, but that is only if what he is claiming is true. It is now likely that he has been a PED user all along, but just hasn't been caught until now.

I'm hoping that he was simply stupid and took a legitimate prescription drug without realizing it would trigger a positive test... but I'm not optimistic. Odds are, he is/has been a user.
Are you following the reported story at all or at least reading the updates in the thread? The substance he tested positive for is neither a steroid or HGH, thus not a PED in the contemporary use of the phrase.

The sentence in bold is a complete assumption without all the information.

I stand by my previous assesment. For the gloves, go to the gardening section at your local Lowe's. You can fashion a screen out of materials found in the window seciton.

[das11209]

GOOD LORD! He was taking SEX ENHANCING DRUGS!

Only Manny can turn such a serious news hillarious.

[Jasonbay44]

GOOD LORD! He was taking SEX ENHANCING DRUGS!:lol:

Whats the source of that?:

[ACL BoSox]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ak2snRXrYAecGa81MfUM0Po5nYcB?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[BoSox21]

Where is it written that this needs to be the assumption to be unsurprised? I don't assume anyone has used PEDs, but I've already allowed for the possibility that they all have in my mind, therefore, none of this surprises me.

I was primarily responding to this quote:


Here's my steroid rule: If you played in the late 80s or 90s, or began your career in the 90s, you used steroids until they were banned by the league. Then you switched to HGH and whetever elite athletes use today.

[Gom]

Guess your championships are bit tainted now, huh?

Welcome to the club, fellas.

[das11209]

Guess your championships are bit tainted now, huh?

Welcome to the club, fellas.

Serious question - did you read the posts at all?

[ORS]

Serious question - did you read the posts at all?
Serious question, did you notice who you were quoting?

[Jasonbay44]

Guess your championships are bit tainted now, huh?

Welcome to the club, fellas.
Didn't read the posts in the thread Im guessing.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ak2snRXrYAecGa81MfUM0Po5nYcB?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgnsThanks, only Manny would do something like this.:lol:

[26 to 6]

Can we seriously can the fucking Red Sox and Yankees thing? It's not even close to the point. If people really thought there were only clean players on the Red Sox, they're retarded.

Oh, and for the record 26, you didn't gain any "leverage". Ours is just gone. It's now neutral, as it really was all along. No one can blame anything on PEDs since they're so common.
When the A-Rod thing came out it was a different story. We took a beating. Now that The Manny thing has come out you want the whole Yankee/Red Sox thing to go away. You can't have your cake and eat it to damnit. Grow the fuck up. If you guys can dish it you should be able to take. Now that your leverage is "gone" you want it to go away, well it doesn't work like that.

[26 to 6]

Manny was caught smoking the chronic! Maybe its to Manny like spinach is to Popeye.
That would not surprise me one bit. The sex enhancers however do surprise me :lol: . Poor guy. Chances are he probably still used at one point, but what a way to get suspended :lol:

I guess you still have your leverage sotk, therefore I take it the Yankee/Red Sox war is back on?

[arbitrary]

Leverage is a bunch of bs; bottom line: Yankees suck and they can all go fuck themselves. The statement transcends logic.

[26 to 6]

Leverage is a bunch of bs; bottom line: Yankees suck and they can all go fuck themselves. The statement transcends logic.
Go jerk off to your Josh Beckett baseball cards you fucking clown.

On another note, I imagine manny isn't too disappointed, he'll likely enjoy his 50 game vacation.

[BoSox21]

When the A-Rod thing came out it was a different story. We took a beating. Now that The Manny thing has come out you want the whole Yankee/Red Sox thing to go away. You can't have your cake and eat it to damnit. Grow the fuck up. If you guys can dish it you should be able to take. Now that your leverage is "gone" you want it to go away, well it doesn't work like that.

Who turned the A-Rod story into a Yankee/Red Sox thing? Not once have I seen the steroid issue be judged along uniform lines. Are the Giants hated cause they had Bonds? No, Bonds is hated on his own. Same with A-Rod, he's a douche no matter what uniform he plays in and he judged as such. Same with Clemens, Sheffield, Giambi, etc.



On another note, I imagine manny isn't too disappointed, he'll likely enjoy his 50 game vacation.

Not likely, he'll lose $8 million which I'm sure hurts a guy who is completely motivated by money.

[26 to 6]

Who turned the A-Rod story into a Yankee/Red Sox thing? Not once have I seen the steroid issue be judged along uniform lines. Are the Giants hated cause they had Bonds? No, Bonds is hated on his own. Same with A-Rod, he's a douche no matter what uniform he plays in and he judged as such. Same with Clemens, Sheffield, Giambi, etc.



Not likely, he'll lose $8 million which I'm sure hurts a guy who is completely motivated by money.
Yeah but he's gpt enough of it, and let's not forget about his $20 mil option for 2010.

[BoSox21]

He clearly doesn't think he has enough of it the way he torpedoed his own career in Boston to go make $5 million more somewhere else.

Remember, when gas went up, so did Manny


However, two sources told ESPN's T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada that the drug used by Ramirez is hCG -- human chorionic gonadotropin. HCG is a women's fertility drug typically used by steroid users to restart their body's natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Bonds, Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO.

lulz. I gotta wonder what doctor would prescribe a women's fertility drug for Manny...

[ORS]

If that's the drug, that is a smoking gun, IMO.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

HCG is a women's fertility drug typically used by steroid users to restart their body's natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle.

Yup.

[jacksonianmarch]

AND noW EveryTHinG DaT dA soX achieveD frUm 2001-2008 is TAinTeD!!!

[BoSox21]

so that links the reports that he took it to increase his sex drive then

[jacksonianmarch]

He clearly doesn't think he has enough of it the way he torpedoed his own career in Boston to go make $5 million more somewhere else.

Remember, when gas went up, so did Manny



lulz. I gotta wonder what doctor would prescribe a women's fertility drug for Manny...

its not really a fertility DRUG per se, it is a marker of pregnancy and is a hormone that assists in keeping the pregnancy going.

[BoSox21]

in regards to its relevance in this case, would it serve as a masking agent as well or does it simply jump start the testosterone after a steroid use cycle?

[Teddyballgame10]

When the A-Rod thing came out it was a different story. We took a beating. Now that The Manny thing has come out you want the whole Yankee/Red Sox thing to go away. You can't have your cake and eat it to damnit. Grow the fuck up. If you guys can dish it you should be able to take. Now that your leverage is "gone" you want it to go away, well it doesn't work like that.

Shut up the A-Rod thing was a different situation, it was clear cut he was using steroids. This story is very hazy, wait for more details to come out. I'm able to take shit for it but I want to see what actually happen before I start ridiculing the guy.

[Dojji]

Then there's the fact that A-Rod signed with the Yankees after his alleged use, while Manny was caught after having left Boston. The point is that we only know for sure that one team spent a bunch of $$$$ on a cheater.

[Mr Crunchy]

Well this is rather disturbing to me as I loved the guys swing and have stated that hes the best right handed hitter ive ever seen...
20hrs in all of 2007, 20 hrs in 100 games last year in Boston then blam,17hrs in 53 games in Los Angeles...
Could be the Clemens syndrome at work here.
you're losing it, you know it, yet you want to prove to the world otherwise so you cheat.
Nothing IN this game is sacred but the game itself is still sacred.
The participants from the Corporations that buy the luxury suites, to the unmitigated greed of owners who charge 2650.00 for seats and seperate the fans as if we were in a Caste system,from Jeff Loria and Carl Pohlad pocketing their TV and revenue sharing while dumping their teams stars and even our guys and their nasty ass p.r. machine leaking all kinds of shit to the whores in the media and of course the tainted players,their lack of city loyalty and their blatant dishonesty.....
They all suck as well.
Things that make it special for me like watching Martinez sending Jeter and Soriano to the emergency ward on consecutive pitches or him stuffing the gerbil into the Fenway turf in October.Josh Becketts incredible performances in 03-07,Oral Hershisers run in 88, Rickey Hendersons all around game was unreal and I still think hes up their with the best ever.Harmon Killebrew and Tony Oliva drinking at the porthole in Chelsea as me and my dad walked in what a treat as an 8 yr old who adored Killebrew,seeing the guy off the field,he was actually shorter than my father yet his hands were like catchers mitts, I couldnt even talk to the guy.
Too many good things about this game to simply give it up.
Fisks and Carbo's Hrs in game 6, Luis Tiant throwing 155 pitches in game 4, his ability to keep a cigar lit in the shower,Billy Martins explosiveness on and off the field, Yaz covering home plate with dirt after a called strike 3,Ortiz's rampage thru the 2004 season and his incredible playoffs, the grace of Freddy Lynn and the brute power and incredible glove of George Scott, Clemens K'ing 20 twice.
Wade Boggs tenacity which made him a good fielder and his incredible plate discipline, Ichiro,Johnny Bench behind the plate and his 1970 season that made him my favorite as a kid and really turned me on to the game
(Bernie Carbo told me Bench was gay..talk about a kick in the groin).
The game will survive but its this shit that hurts the kids and makes them cynical.
Watching Manny hit was a privledge for me, for my dad and my son and for so many of my friends.
This is just another cut the game and our kids have to endure and this hurts a lot more than any of em.

[castigs850]

i think its very telling that he denied his appeal. Even if it comes out that what he used this time werent steriods, its pretty obvious he doesnt want the extensive background checks

[TedWilliams101]

Are you following the reported story at all or at least reading the updates in the thread? The substance he tested positive for is neither a steroid or HGH, thus not a PED in the contemporary use of the phrase.

The sentence in bold is a complete assumption without all the information.

I stand by my previous assesment. For the gloves, go to the gardening section at your local Lowe's. You can fashion a screen out of materials found in the window seciton.

Yes, I was. You must not be. What he is claimed to have taken isn't some Viagra drug. All you ever do is just call people idiots, blah. Don't be stupid.

[rician blast]

Yep. Here's my steroid rule: If you played in the late 80s or 90s, or began your career in the 90s, you used steroids until they were banned by the league. Then you switched to HGH and whetever elite athletes use today.

So I'm not surprised. I'd say Pujols, Ortiz and Howard will eventually be outed as well.

I don't really judge players anymore either. I'd deny them the HOF if caught but I don't hate them for using. It's just the way it was back then.

Pretty much where I stand...kind of guilty until proven innocent. And Pujols and Howard and Ortiz are on my list along with a whole shitload of guys I don't feel like posting right now.

As for the HOF? Let 'em in, keep 'em out, I don't really fkn care, I'm not a HOF fan.

[jacksonianmarch]

in regards to its relevance in this case, would it serve as a masking agent as well or does it simply jump start the testosterone after a steroid use cycle?

I dont really remember the pathway, but I have read a few studies that state that the serum concentration of testosterone increases significantly after a single does of hCG.

[TedWilliams101]

Honestly, though, are we really all that "ashamed" that many many athletes (lets not just limit this to baseball) have done what ever they could do gain an edge. The only difference (to me) between taking PED and any other ways athletes looked for an edge in the history of man kind is in the effectiveness. Baseball players have always looked for an edge; spit balls, stealing signals, using altered bats, taking greenies, now PEDs. Same goes for any other sports. I honestly don't think anyone could argue that this same exact scenario wouldn't happen if steroids were available back when Ruth played the game.

[Spudboy]

its not really a fertility DRUG per se, it is a marker of pregnancy and is a hormone that assists in keeping the pregnancy going.

You seem to understand human physiology better than the average fan. Do you work in the health care industry? Medical background?

[ARod2212]

Taking a break from my thesis to say this-

God damn. I'm not shocked, but I figured it was possible that Manny was just the idiot savant who knew how to hit.

I'm just glad we can silence the retards who said Boston's titles were clean. There weren't many of them, but they were loud in their stupidity. It was frustrating.

Back to work.

[rician blast]

I dont really remember the pathway, but I have read a few studies that state that the serum concentration of testosterone increases significantly after a single does of hCG.


Doc,I'll chime in a bit on this...having worked in a gym back in college...and been a "conduit", shall we say, for dudes who wanted 'roids I can relate my experience with HCG:

Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) was something 'roid users ALWAYS got with an order for 'roids. So if the guy wanted Anavar, Testosterone, Deca-Durabolin, Dianabol, Winstrol, etc. he was ALWAYS supplied with a SERM...a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator...for post-cycle usage.

What HCG did was combat the shut down of an individuals natural testosterone production and help avoid the unwanted side effects of going off cycle...i.e. bitch tits, fat gain, loss of the lean muscle gains they achieved from the 'roids, and boost the individuals own test production.

However, there also were a number of times guys asked for HCG alone...not because they were going off a steroid cycle, but simply to enhance their natural testosterone production...they did it both for sexual enhancement and because it helped them get bigger/stronger without the shut-down of their own (endogenous? Riv?) test production.

If the substance turns out to be HCG, then I think there are three possibilities. (1) Manny wanted to boost his sex drive or (2) Manny was looking for an increase in natural testosterone production to enhance his baseball performance or (3) he was using it as a post-cycle therapy, meaning he had juiced in the not too distant past.

[BoSox21]

Pretty much where I stand...kind of guilty until proven innocent.

How does any baseball player get proven innocent?


You seem to understand human physiology better than the average fan. Do you work in the health care industry? Medical background?

He's a doctor.

[Dipre]

All i'm gonna say is:

Ain't Karma a bitch?

He sabotaged his way out of Boston to get more money, he loses a bit of money in the process, and now gets banned for $8 mill (he don't care about the games), for using a cock-enhancer.

Ah, in such strange ways does hilarity ensue.

[rician blast]

How does any baseball player get proven innocent?


I don't know. That's the unfortunate part of this.

To be fair, and more accurate, I should adopt ORS's word "assumed" when I talk about PED use. It's gotten to the point where if a guy's production spikes, or if he gets even the slightest bit bigger/stronger the assumption is that he's using.

I simply don't find myself thinking "wow, he must have worked very hard in the offseason." Years ago? Sure, that's what I thought when a guy came out and tore it up. Now? I can't help but think the player is using.

[Redguitar985]

I was at work when I got a text about this. Wow. I, too, though will have to group myself with the ones saying they were disappointed but not surprised.

I read that the drug he was taking helps restore lost testosterone, and steroid use depletes testosterone. He said he passed 15 drug tests over the last five years, but I heard HGH can't be picked up by drug tests. Is that true? If so, then maybe he was using steroids before this, maybe for a while, and he decided to stop. He wanted to restore testosterone in his body, and his doctor gave him the wrong drug. The question then would be, why did he stop.

Oh well, at least he didn't do it in Boston. Good thing Epstein made the call and got rid of him last year.

[Mr Crunchy]

You seem to understand human physiology better than the average fan. Do you work in the health care industry? Medical background?

Hes a patient at Bridgewater State Hospital after escaping from Bellvue in NY.
Jack2aKing is a Doctor and shows flashes of intelligence from time to time.

[Coco's Disciples]

Taking a break from my thesis to say this-

God damn. I'm not shocked, but I figured it was possible that Manny was just the idiot savant who knew how to hit.

I'm just glad we can silence the retards who said Boston's titles were clean. There weren't many of them, but they were loud in their stupidity. It was frustrating.

Back to work.

Every title in the past decade (at least) is tainted if the basis is one positive tester.

[BoSox21]

I just don't want to ever get to the point where I'm cynical enough to automatically think that anyone who improves at the game is improving cause of PEDs. I love the game too much to allow that and it would affect my love for the game if I became that cynical. If it comes at the price of being duped every now and then, so be it.

[RobiForMVP]

This disappoints me...
All thought he didn't use it for baseball..

[Dipre]

I just don't want to ever get to the point where I'm cynical enough to automatically think that anyone who improves at the game is improving cause of PEDs. I love the game too much to allow that and it would affect my love for the game if I became that cynical. If it comes at the price of being duped every now and then, so be it.

That statement is just about to explode with WIN, and it is a stance we should all try to emulate.

[TedWilliams101]

I think that you always have to consider that professional athletes will do just about anything in their power to get an edge. These are just "fans" of the sport who want everything "clean" and perfect. They are competitive athletes trying to be the best and make the most money. Its just the way it is (and likely always has been). If you want clean, pure sports, go watch little league. Maybe in the future it will be possible to have a pure league.

Maybe its just me, but I wouldn't put it past anyone. I honestly believe that if Baby Ruth, Hank Aaron, etc had access to steroids, they might very well use them. Who knows, they might have experimented with ways to improve their game that might be considered "cheating" if it worked. Heck, it's been claimed that Willie Mays used to use a greenie called "Red Juice". I enjoy sports, especially played at the highest level for the highest stakes, even though it means that there might be cheating, attempts to cheating, etc going on. When the stakes are high, people will do anything to win.

[Coco's Disciples]

However, two sources told ESPN's T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada that the drug used by Ramirez is HCG -- human chorionic gonadotropin. HCG is a women's fertility drug typically used by steroid users to restart their body's natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Bonds, Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO.
-per ESPN

EDIT: Already posted, my bad.

[rician blast]

I was at work when I got a text about this. Wow. I, too, though will have to group myself with the ones saying they were disappointed but not surprised.

I read that the drug he was taking helps restore lost testosterone, and steroid use depletes testosterone. He said he passed 15 drug tests over the last five years, but I heard HGH can't be picked up by drug tests. Is that true? If so, then maybe he was using steroids before this, maybe for a while, and he decided to stop. He wanted to restore testosterone in his body, and his doctor gave him the wrong drug. The question then would be, why did he stop.

Oh well, at least he didn't do it in Boston. Good thing Epstein made the call and got rid of him last year.

True, they do not currently test for HGH. HGH would not have depleted his test levels, to my knowledge, so I don't see the HCG connection with HGH.

Read my post above, I have a little experience with this stuff, at least from the perspective of what guys used and why.

As far as post-cycle drugs, like HCG, are concerned, while HCG may not be specifically a female fertility drug (as it does have valid use as a male testosterone enhancer) there are such drugs being used post-cycle by heavy 'roid users.

Clomid is female fertility enhancement drug that guys are using post-cycle.

Then there is a drug called Nolvadex. What is it? Oh, it's a drug prescribed for women who are at a high-risk for developing breast cancer. Each of these drugs supresses estrogen spikes that are common after a steroid cycle. I'd be willing to bet they're all on the banned substance list.

[example1]

One can't help but wonder what this says about Manny's past use. Did he regularly show up at Spring Training late so he could clear his system? I really hate that Manny is nailed, like everyone else disappointed but not surprised.

This should be a referrendum on Manny--of course--but it should also be one on Scott Boras, whose clients have continually been caught up in this shit and who keeps playing as if he has the strongest hand at the table. Hopefully teams will soon start finding ways to get assurances from the all-knowing Boras that his clients aren't using. This is really a shame for the Dodgers, who are getting screwed already by Manny and his contract demands.

I agree with the earlier post: Jason Bay > Manny Ramirez.

[Mr Crunchy]

Fuck the Dodgers, they paid this guy with his baggage well known to everyone.
Someone tell Frank Mccourt to pay his rent now that he saves 8M.

[BoSox21]

This should be a referrendum on Manny--of course--but it should also be one on Scott Boras, whose clients have continually been caught up in this shit and who keeps playing as if he has the strongest hand at the table.

Scott Boras' job is to negotiate the best possible contract for his clients and to generally stick up for them in all baseball-related matters. Why should he be held accountable if his clients CHOOSE to use PEDs? Blame rests solely on the player, no one else.


Hopefully teams will soon start finding ways to get assurances from the all-knowing Boras that his clients aren't using.

If they even care about the PED issue, teams should be doing for any player they sign anyway. If they choose to ignore the issue, then they get what they deserve when the guy is suspended.

[Mr Crunchy]

Manny was clean on 15 tests and his #s were very consistant in Boston till he started declining in 07.
The idea that the sox titles are tainted is pure fucking nonsense just as NY's are legit from 96-98-00.

another case of desperate yankee fans who should are pulling their pricks looking for a reason,any reason at all, to gloat at our expense.Manny never tested positive in Boston and hes not on this years team thats 5-0 against NY...Give it a rest.

[rician blast]

On WFAN some callers went down the "Red Sox championship is tainted" path. Loved it when the callers were told, by a Yankee fan, that the Red Sox have been the better team this decade and that they are better now.

Anyone turning this into a Yankee-Red Sox thing is a fkn douche.

[Redguitar985]

True, they do not currently test for HGH. HGH would not have depleted his test levels, to my knowledge, so I don't see the HCG connection with HGH.

Read my post above, I have a little experience with this stuff, at least from the perspective of what guys used and why.

As far as post-cycle drugs, like HCG, are concerned, while HCG may not be specifically a female fertility drug (as it does have valid use as a male testosterone enhancer) there are such drugs being used post-cycle by heavy 'roid users.

Clomid is female fertility enhancement drug that guys are using post-cycle.

Then there is a drug called Nolvadex. What is it? Oh, it's a drug prescribed for women who are at a high-risk for developing breast cancer. Each of these drugs supresses estrogen spikes that are common after a steroid cycle. I'd be willing to bet they're all on the banned substance list.

Are there any other steroids or PEDs that wouldn't come up in the drug tests besides HGH? As much as I'd like to believe Manny was juicing before, it's a valid point that he hasn't failed any drug tests before, and he's been taking them for the last five years.

[RedSoxRooter]

It's probably because the testing has gotten better. He got busted for masking agent and nothing really more.

[rician blast]

Are there any other steroids or PEDs that wouldn't come up in the drug tests besides HGH? As much as I'd like to believe Manny was juicing before, it's a valid point that he hasn't failed any drug tests before, and he's been taking them for the last five years.

Besides HGH? Not sure.

There is a shitload of stuff you can buy over the counter that essentially provides the same performance improvement as Androstendione (remember? found in Mark McGwire's locker?) did before it was banned in the US. I don't know if those compounds are on MLB's banned substance list. Brand names such as Epistane, Havoc, 6-Oxo, 3-AD, Halodrol, Superdrol are all over the market products "designer steroids" that teens and adults are using.

The cynic in me says that there are likely sources you can go to, quite possibly outside of the US, that have developed anabolic products that are not detectable in MLB's tests. As for HGH itself, my guess is that it's use is fairly common, since they don't yet test for it.

If the drug he tested positive for was HGH, I think it's important to note it is NOT a masking agent. Males use it generally either post-cycle or as a testosterone booster. It doesn't hide anything else you've taken.

[Redguitar985]

On WFAN some callers went down the "Red Sox championship is tainted" path. Loved it when the callers were told, by a Yankee fan, that the Red Sox have been the better team this decade and that they are better now.

Anyone turning this into a Yankee-Red Sox thing is a fkn douche.

I think it's pretty clear to any baseball fan who's followed it the last few years and seen all the prominent names busted for steroids that baseball is no different than any sport, and the players will juice if they think it will boost their performance and get them a better contract. I would not be surprised if we found out down the road Manny or another player on the Red Sox had been juicing in '04.

One thing I was thinking about earlier is why people are so crazy about it in baseball, but could care less about steroids in other sports. Guys like Rodney Harrison and Shawn Merriman got busted in the NFL, but the outcry wasn't nearly as big as it has been in baseball. It has to be because baseball is the American pastime, and people want it to be a clean sport, right? When you think of baseball, you think of apple pie, summer nights, and anything else happy, right? And since most people see steroid use as cheating, that doesn't their image.

Haha, I'm now thinking of that George Carlin joke about the differences between baseball and football, if anyone knows it.

[Redguitar985]

Besides HGH? Not sure.

There is a shitload of stuff you can buy over the counter that essentially provides the same performance improvement as Androstendione (remember? found in Mark McGwire's locker?) did before it was banned in the US. I don't know if those compounds are on MLB's banned substance list. Brand names such as Epistane, Havoc, 6-Oxo, 3-AD, Halodrol, Superdrol are all over the market products "designer steroids" that teens and adults are using.

The cynic in me says that there are likely sources you can go to, quite possibly outside of the US, that have developed anabolic products that are not detectable in MLB's tests. As for HGH itself, my guess is that it's use is fairly common, since they don't yet test for it.

If the drug he tested positive for was HGH, I think it's important to note it is NOT a masking agent. Males use it generally either post-cycle or as a testosterone booster. It doesn't hide anything else you've taken.

Manny's from the Dominican Republic. Maybe they had something there? Yeah, I don't know.

[ORS]

Yes, I was. You must not be. What he is claimed to have taken isn't some Viagra drug. All you ever do is just call people idiots, blah. Don't be stupid.
At the time of your post, the one where the assumption was clear indication of a career's worth of usage, the banned substance had not been reported.

I don't call people idiots, I call idiots idiots. Some of them just happen to be people, like you.

[ORS]

If they even care about the PED issue, teams should be doing for any player they sign anyway. If they choose to ignore the issue, then they get what they deserve when the guy is suspended.
I'm surprised we haven't seen a void clause for PED use yet. Anyone know if the MLBPA was able to get these excluded in the last CBA?

If I'm an owner in the current climate, I put them in any contract of appreciable time. That is, I do if I'm serious about reversing the culture of the game.

[J-Beck]

Well I can't say I'm too disappointed...

I kinda half wanted to see him fail miserably in LA after he left the Sox.

But I question whether or not a 50 game suspension is adequate for supposedly something that is meant for erectile dysfunction.

[rician blast]

I'm surprised we haven't seen a void clause for PED use yet. Anyone know if the MLBPA was able to get these excluded in the last CBA?

If I'm an owner in the current climate, I put them in any contract of appreciable time. That is, I do if I'm serious about reversing the culture of the game.

I thought I heard Tom (sp?) Kurchian'Kerchian/Kerjcian..whatever the fuck his name is... say that in the last CBA the player's association won on that front, but it was something owners had raised.

Thing is I wonder how that would work out cuz if they have a void clause and opted not to exercise it, the franchise looks like a sell-out.

I'd suspect it's something that'll be very contentious during the next negotations.

[BoSox21]

I'm sure a clause like that could be included in a future CBA but I think for now, Selig is taking the "baby steps" approach to it.

[Teddyballgame10]

Manny was clean on 15 tests and his #s were very consistant in Boston till he started declining in 07.
The idea that the sox titles are tainted is pure fucking nonsense just as NY's are legit from 96-98-00.

another case of desperate yankee fans who should are pulling their pricks looking for a reason,any reason at all, to gloat at our expense.Manny never tested positive in Boston and hes not on this years team thats 5-0 against NY...Give it a rest.

Perfectly said. I could careless what hes doing now.

[J-Beck]

When I first heard the news that the substance was not steroids, I immediately thought it was marijuana.

He just seems like the guy who would be a total pothead.

[Mr Crunchy]

Manny looks like a burner to me but does this erectile dysfunction thing have any legs and how do I explain this to a 13 yr old kid who worships manny and isnt familiar with Viagra or the reasons behind its popularity amongst the Yankee fans and their squeezes?.
Based on the power surge I tend to think that Manny was juicing but Id prefer to see him come out of this clean.

[BoSox21]

you just explain to him that he cheated and broke the rules and hopes he learns a lesson from it. at some point, he'll have to learn that athletes aren't role models anyway

[Mr Crunchy]

Ya but what if it was a viagra like substance?that isnt cheating,
thats just being a typical Republican or a Yankee fan.
I dont want to explain the whole erectile dysfuction thing to a kid who i hope is still a virgin.

[Lil D-Ped]

This surprised me a lot.. I saw Ramirez shirtless photo in Johnny Damon's book "Idiot" and there was no trace of muscle at all. Which led me to believe that he did not take steroids or illegal substance of any kind. I guess you can't be too sure.

[jacksonianmarch]

On WFAN some callers went down the "Red Sox championship is tainted" path. Loved it when the callers were told, by a Yankee fan, that the Red Sox have been the better team this decade and that they are better now.

Anyone turning this into a Yankee-Red Sox thing is a fkn douche.

that is for the sox fans who like to pretend that the yankees were the only champion to have tainted players on their teams. I dont care. But there are plenty of people on this site who maintain that the yankees championships are tainted because of Clemens and Pettitte. For those people, seeing Manny fail a drug test is ironic, eh? For those who didnt make those statements, then this doesnt apply to you.

[jacksonianmarch]

are people truly thinking that Manny is using this solely as a sexual enhancer? How many on here are THAT gullible

[Redguitar985]

Bill Plaschke just went off on Manny on ATH. Maybe he was overreacting, but I can't say I blame him. When we've had so many big name, hall-of-fame players connected to steroids, when is it ever going to end?

Today makes me really hope Albert Pujols is clean so we have at least ONE clean superstar.

[CrespoBlows]

Bill Plaschke


Worst reporter ever.

[BoSox21]

I dont want to explain the whole erectile dysfuction thing to a kid who i hope is still a virgin.

He took a testosterone booster, no need to bring up anything related to ED

[BSN07]

I don't think of Championships as being tainted. Someone on the winning team where using. As some where probably using on the losing teams as well. To argue otherwise is dumb. It's good for a poke in the ribs, but anything beyond that is fruitless.

I'm not slow or stoned enough to think Manny was using this just for sex enhancement.

I thank Manny for what he did in Boston pre 2008, but what goes around comes around, and the fact he's made 150M+ dollars, I find it hard to feel sorry for him.


But like I said before, give me 150M+ and I'd use roids too. I'd prolly put my balls in a deep fryer as well...

[example1]

I'm surprised we haven't seen a void clause for PED use yet. Anyone know if the MLBPA was able to get these excluded in the last CBA?

If I'm an owner in the current climate, I put them in any contract of appreciable time. That is, I do if I'm serious about reversing the culture of the game.

That's exactly what I"m saying too ORS. No team should put up with this shit. First, big market teams start refusing to sign those guys; next, those players' agents (like Boras) start enforcing it, doing their own testing, etc., to ensure that their guys come with a stamp of approval.

BoSox21, I think your "this rests solely with the player" approach negates the role that the players association has and that the cutthroat agents have in promoting their players and the game itself. Between A-Rod and Manny this is plenty of reason for teams to just avoid Boras altogether. He brags about how much his players contribute to winning, but does he give a fuck about how much his players have impacted fans trust of the game itself?

THe game is extremely popular, yes, but it is losing popularity compared to football--a sport that doesn't seem to have the same impact of steroids despite its obvious usage. To me, steroids get to the heart of what is valuable to many baseball fans: numbers, consistency, records, individual performance within a team framework. Football can get away with an OLB being suspended for 4 games because the games that Shaun Merriman misses aren't filled with "merriman would have made that tackle" comments the same way that replacing Manny Ramirez with league average LF is an obvious pain for the team.

[example1]

I'm sure a clause like that could be included in a future CBA but I think for now, Selig is taking the "baby steps" approach to it.

Why wouldn't Selig approach it aggressively? This isn't about Selig, it is about the players association, which is the most powerful players association in all of sports. They can threaten to strike whenever they want to and have followed through in the past. There is no salary cap, only a weak cap on draft pick values, and the PA is unwilling to subject itself to blood tests or any type of voiding. Blame the PA and the players.

[J-Beck]

This article makes me want to kick babies.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

[BoSox21]

Why wouldn't Selig approach it aggressively? This isn't about Selig, it is about the players association, which is the most powerful players association in all of sports. They can threaten to strike whenever they want to and have followed through in the past. There is no salary cap, only a weak cap on draft pick values, and the PA is unwilling to subject itself to blood tests or any type of voiding. Blame the PA and the players.

It's not about why he wouldn't appreach it aggressively. He had to fight the PA every step of the way just to get a damn testing program into MLB and it took congress intervening to actually get that going. So imagine that it would take for Selig to get the PA to agree to have owners getting the ability to void contracts if a player gets a positive test.


He brags about how much his players contribute to winning, but does he give a fuck about how much his players have impacted fans trust of the game itself?

Umm....no he doesn't...

What the hell gives you the idea that Scott Boras, or any agent for that matter, should or would care about ANYTHING other than getting their clients the best contract possible? Scott Boras is not a caretaker of the game of baseball.

[ORS]

Why wouldn't Selig approach it aggressively? This isn't about Selig, it is about the players association, which is the most powerful players association in all of sports. They can threaten to strike whenever they want to and have followed through in the past. There is no salary cap, only a weak cap on draft pick values, and the PA is unwilling to subject itself to blood tests or any type of voiding. Blame the PA and the players.
There are three main variables in the business of baseball equation. The owners (producers), players (resources), and fans (consumers). Two of those three groups have formed a union to focus their behavior on what is in their best interest as a group. The first was the owners when they formed the league. The next was the players. IMO, the final will be the fans.

Two decades ago, I would have thought it impossible. Too much distance and disorganization between groups of people that wouldn't put up with inconvenience of maintaining such an endeavor. But the new connected world has made participation in a variety of causes virtually hassle free. It's only a matter of time before someone with the time and interest necessary to get it started gets the ball rolling. Hell, if I won the lottery, I'd probably do it.

When this happens, the loudest voice will be that of the fans because behind their voice is the $$. United, they can get anything to happen from the owners and players.

You won't ever see solidarity like you do with players. Boycotts would probably only occur at the 50% level of "fan union" members at best, but ask any business if it is comfortable losing 50% of it's revenue.

[BoSox21]

I honestly don't believe that the casual fan cares all that much about players using PEDs. Sure when ESPN.com has a poll asking "Are you outraged?", 85&#37; will say yes but how many of them would honestly boycott the game?

If I lived in Boston and news came out that Ortiz failed a drug test, it wouldn't keep me from watching games on NESN or going to Fenway

[yeszir]

This article makes me want to kick babies.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

Way to be a downer Bill.

[ORS]

I honestly don't believe that the casual fan cares all that much about players using PEDs. Sure when ESPN.com has a poll asking "Are you outraged?", 85% will say yes but how many of them would honestly boycott the game?

If I lived in Boston and news came out that Ortiz failed a drug test, it wouldn't keep me from watching games on NESN or going to Fenway
It isn't whether or not you would stop watching if a single player was identified by the testing program.

Fans would unite, IMO, behind forcing the MLBPA to stop obstructing efforts to rid the game of PEDs. They'd get behind allowing owners to be more aggressive in identifying and penalizing users. At least, I think they would.

[schillingouttheks]

When the A-Rod thing came out it was a different story. We took a beating. Now that The Manny thing has come out you want the whole Yankee/Red Sox thing to go away. You can't have your cake and eat it to damnit. Grow the fuck up. If you guys can dish it you should be able to take. Now that your leverage is "gone" you want it to go away, well it doesn't work like that.

No, I maintained the stance that everyone does it and the rest of the list should be released because it's not fair to A-Rod, as much as I dislike him. Go look for those posts. They're there. I never once made Yanks/Sox an issue in this. In fact, I remember repeatedly telling people to go above the rivalry, because it wasn't just the Yankees.

I would expect the same treatment and backup in return.

[CrespoBlows]

Bill Simmons is a douchebag.

[example1]

Umm....no he doesn't...

What the hell gives you the idea that Scott Boras, or any agent for that matter, should or would care about ANYTHING other than getting their clients the best contract possible? Scott Boras is not a caretaker of the game of baseball.

It's really simple. The pool of money that Boras has to pull from is directly related to the popularity of the game and the fans' ability to see the game as based on fair competition. Steroid and PED usage reduce fan interest and tarnish the game. If, as ORS hypothesizes, the fans start to turn away from the game--either in a united effort as by attrition--then teams will start to lose revenue. Combined with the shitty economy and a rigid players union and we're talking about lots and lots of money that Boras will not be getting for his players.

Manny already got less than Boras wanted, as did a bunch of non-Boras players like Abreu and Dunn. It isn't going to get any better.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Bill Plaschke just went off on Manny on ATH. Maybe he was overreacting, but I can't say I blame him. When we've had so many big name, hall-of-fame players connected to steroids, when is it ever going to end?

Today makes me really hope Albert Pujols is clean so we have at least ONE clean superstar.
Bill Plaschke is the ultimate fuck nugget. I don't listen to anything he says.

[rician blast]

from this link :

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907

comes the following:

"testing by Major League Baseball showed that Ramirez had testosterone in his body that was not natural and came from an artificial source, two people with knowledge of the case told ESPN's Mark Fainaru-Wada and T.J. Quinn. The sources said that in addition to the artificial testosterone, Ramirez was identified as using the female fertility drug human chorionic gonadotropin, or hCG."

OK, so he had unnatural testosterone in his body AND HCG, which as I mentioned in earlier posts is a key post-steroid cycle substance in order to avoid a host of problems that accompany steroid-induced shut down of natural testosterone production.

Guilty as a motha fucka.

[BoSox21]

Fans would unite, IMO, behind forcing the MLBPA to stop obstructing efforts to rid the game of PEDs. They'd get behind allowing owners to be more aggressive in identifying and penalizing users. At least, I think they would.

I'm sure they would unite behind the cause but how far would fans be willing to go to force the issue? They would have to take their dollars out of the game and that means not buying any more merchandise or going to games. They'd also have to stop watching games on TV forcing advertisers on TV networks to pull their ads thus costing MLB a ton of money.

[BoSox21]

Steroid and PED usage reduce fan interest and tarnish the game.

I disagree. Baseball revenues are at an all-time high. Look, I love the idealism of a fan boycott of all things MLB but I think it's a lot of wishful thinking.

[ORS]

"Revenues at an all-time" high is a bit misleading. Yes, in recent years they set new records for revenues. No chance this coincided with the massive expansion of the connected world and a period of economic expansion?

I can get why you think interest wouldn't be sufficient to support united action, but I don't think recent revenues are a good reason to support that. Unless it is expressed as some sort of rate/ratio, gross numbers, particularly ones concerning money, will be misleading. Inflation alone makes this so.

[example1]

I'm sure they would unite behind the cause but how far would fans be willing to go to force the issue? They would have to take their dollars out of the game and that means not buying any more merchandise or going to games. They'd also have to stop watching games on TV forcing advertisers on TV networks to pull their ads thus costing MLB a ton of money.

They're already backing down from attending games and I'm willing to bet that in a few months we'll hear reports about how many fewer $200+ jerseys are being sold during this recession.

You laid out a blueprint of what lower popularity would look like... let's wait and see how it plays out.

[Teddyballgame10]

Bill Simmons is a douchebag.

No hes not hes a genius, although I don't like the newest article about Manny. I disagree with him and I wont look at that championship any other way. Technichally they were on an even playing field as he says. I wont think any differently of the championship though.

[CrespoBlows]

No hes not hes a genius, although I don't like the newest article about Manny. I disagree with him and I wont look at that championship any other way. Technichally they were on an even playing field as he says. I wont think any differently of the championship though.

'Genius' is an antonym for Bill Simmons.

[jacksonianmarch]

This article makes me want to kick babies.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

Its actually very good. For those of you who absolutely despise cheating, then you have to read this. For those of you who understand that it is part of our culture and dont really care, then it shouldnt bother you.

[jacksonianmarch]

from this link :

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907

comes the following:

"testing by Major League Baseball showed that Ramirez had testosterone in his body that was not natural and came from an artificial source, two people with knowledge of the case told ESPN's Mark Fainaru-Wada and T.J. Quinn. The sources said that in addition to the artificial testosterone, Ramirez was identified as using the female fertility drug human chorionic gonadotropin, or hCG."

OK, so he had unnatural testosterone in his body AND HCG, which as I mentioned in earlier posts is a key post-steroid cycle substance in order to avoid a host of problems that accompany steroid-induced shut down of natural testosterone production.

Guilty as a motha fucka.

Agreed

[crossfire726]

well im pretty disappointed in manny. but im not too surprised. the thing that would be shocking to me is if some how ken griffey tested positive. He seems to be the only clean one among the rest of the cheaters from the 90's.

[jacksonianmarch]

Nothing would surprise me. But if there is anything for his case is that he did all his damage in his prime and absolutely collapsed once he turned 30

[castigs850]

jesus, this guy is a fuck and a half. he got his money, had this year and next. he had his rings. and he had the benefit of the doubt. there was no reason to take steroids anymore.

[MannybeingBarryBonds]

Honestly im not surprised however I thought manny had a pretty big dick. dude must of been horny for his wife, she better be hot and he better of provided and if he didn't shame on him for tainting his career. damn manny just use those penis enlarging commercials they always show on tv. you can have a larger dick for the cost of a postage stamp. if it didn't work would they be able to do that? exaclty manny. damn man i wont be surprised if miguel cabrera, albert pujols, shane vicorino, fielder and justin upton are all on steroids but none will ever be on dick or sex enlargements.

[RobiForMVP]

Honestly im not surprised however I thought manny had a pretty big dick. dude must of been horny for his wife, she better be hot and he better of provided and if he didn't shame on him for tainting his career. damn manny just use those penis enlarging commercials they always show on tv. you can have a larger dick for the cost of a postage stamp. if it didn't work would they be able to do that? exaclty manny. damn man i wont be surprised if miguel cabrera, albert pujols, shane vicorino, fielder and justin upton are all on steroids but none will ever be on dick or sex enlargements.

WTF??

[MannybeingBarryBonds]

What son? got a problem with my post?

[castigs850]

the old lady in the tub gives me wood every time

[MannybeingBarryBonds]

Id give you wood but i don't provide enough, i better use some sex performance enhancing drugs to provide enough for you. me and manny are tight he can give me some sex enhancers like santonio holmes gets weed. hell steelers have a guy named sweed you feel me.

[Gom]

What's really funny is that people believed he started doing this AFTER he left Boston.

Right....

[RHS]

the thing that would be shocking to me is if some how ken griffey tested positive. He seems to be the only clean one among the rest of the cheaters from the 90's.

Agree in that KGJ being linked in anyway would be pretty upsetting and shocking for me.

[rician blast]

What's really funny is that people believed he started doing this AFTER he left Boston.

Right....

you saying you think that is the prevailing notion? I don't think so. Some may think he just started, but I think the majority of fans probably suspect this goes back a ways. The 90's were a big time for steroid use and he broke in during that era, on a team with several guys who I suspect used (Albert Belle, Thome, et al). I'd guess there's a good chance he did it back then.

[rician blast]

the thing that would be shocking to me is if some how ken griffey tested positive. He seems to be the only clean one among the rest of the cheaters from the 90's.

Curious...why do people think he's clean and has always been so? What is this notion based upon?

[jacksonianmarch]

What's really funny is that people believed he started doing this AFTER he left Boston.

Right....

But ARod has been JUICING IN NY!!! Kinda funny. Here's a shocking revelation. ARod juiced in NY. Manny juiced in Boston.

[BSN07]

That's exactly what I"m saying too ORS. No team should put up with this shit. First, big market teams start refusing to sign those guys; next, those players' agents (like Boras) start enforcing it, doing their own testing, etc., to ensure that their guys come with a stamp of approval.

BoSox21, I think your "this rests solely with the player" approach negates the role that the players association has and that the cutthroat agents have in promoting their players and the game itself. Between A-Rod and Manny this is plenty of reason for teams to just avoid Boras altogether. He brags about how much his players contribute to winning, but does he give a fuck about how much his players have impacted fans trust of the game itself?

THe game is extremely popular, yes, but it is losing popularity compared to football--a sport that doesn't seem to have the same impact of steroids despite its obvious usage. To me, steroids get to the heart of what is valuable to many baseball fans: numbers, consistency, records, individual performance within a team framework. Football can get away with an OLB being suspended for 4 games because the games that Shaun Merriman misses aren't filled with "merriman would have made that tackle" comments the same way that replacing Manny Ramirez with league average LF is an obvious pain for the team.
Agree

I honestly don't believe that the casual fan cares all that much about players using PEDs. Sure when ESPN.com has a poll asking "Are you outraged?", 85% will say yes but how many of them would honestly boycott the game?

If I lived in Boston and news came out that Ortiz failed a drug test, it wouldn't keep me from watching games on NESN or going to Fenway
Agree

I disagree. Baseball revenues are at an all-time high. Look, I love the idealism of a fan boycott of all things MLB but I think it's a lot of wishful thinking.
It's the same as everyone talking about boycotting the Gas stations. It sounds good, but no one ever does it.

What's really funny is that people believed he started doing this AFTER he left Boston.

Right....
I said it sarcastically earlier. To believe it would be utterly moronic.

But ARod has been JUICING IN NY!!! Kinda funny. Here's a shocking revelation. ARod juiced in NY. Manny juiced in Boston.
I'm with you here.

[Mr Crunchy]

I look for the mysterious injuries and great differences in power #s when i suspect someone of cheating but im not naive enuff to think Mannys been clean since day 1 either.
It just surprises me that he never got caught till yesterday
then you look at the shocking disparity in homers he hit in Boston and his surge in Los Angeles after he left...
20/80? in 2007 in 133 games
20/? in 100 games in boston
17hrs in 53 games in Los Angeles....
Clemens did the same shit when Duquette ruled him past his prime.
The sox made Clemens the highest paid player in the game with a 5/25 yr deal and Clem was what?
41-40??39-40?? essentially a .500 pitcher for 5 yrs.
He leaves boston wanting to play for a contender closer to texas and decides on a last place team in fucking canada?...The rest is history and Brian Mcnamee is holding the evidence.
Too bad
But we won last night and NY lost,
its 75 degrees today with brilliant sunshine and life goes on my friends.

[Gom]

Great article on Manny/Papi and the Red Sox.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

[BoSox21]

proof that you havent followed the thread, that article's already been posted, assclown

[rician blast]

Great article on Manny/Papi and the Red Sox.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

great article? how so?

[Gom]

Well-written.

[ORS]

How can it not be great? It's full of completely thoughtless assumption that the drooling masses eat up like ice cream, and on top of that, it's all bad for the Red Sox. With those two criteria met, the only way it could suit Gom better is if he wrote it so he could pat himself on the back for it.

[Gom]

How can it not be great? It's full of completely thoughtless assumption that the drooling masses eat up like ice cream, and on top of that, it's all bad for the Red Sox. With those two criteria met, the only way it could suit Gom better is if he wrote it so he could pat himself on the back for it.

Wow...you really live in your own little world, don't you? A world where the Yankees are evil, the Red Sox are good and honest and clean. I just like a little reality in my life.

It's what I've been saying for years. Just written better than I could write it. No Manny, no juice, and Ortiz is nothing more than a scrub player. Your hero, Manny cheated. You don't win without Manny. You know it. So you're great season, the great comeback, was orchestrated by frauds. Great day for Yankee fans.

[BoSox21]

So you're great season, the great comeback, was orchestrated by frauds. Great day for Yankee fans.

You stupid idiot, the great comeback came against a team with Sheffield and A-Rod on it. Go camping on a pig farm in Mexico, douchebag.

[TheKilo]

Wow...you really live in your own little world, don't you? A world where the Yankees are evil, the Red Sox are good and honest and clean. I just like a little reality in my life.

It's what I've been saying for years. Just written better than I could write it. No Manny, no juice, and Ortiz is nothing more than a scrub player. Your hero, Manny cheated. You don't win without Manny. You know it. So you're great season, the great comeback, was orchestrated by frauds. Great day for Yankee fans.

lol wow what a mouth breather

Pretty weak trolling attempt.

[PhuckTheSox]

So, this is what helped the Sox win their title?

[TheKilo]

So, this is what helped the Sox win their title?

I take it back, Gom.

This is a really weak trolling attempt.

[ORS]

Wow...you really live in your own little world, don't you? A world where the Yankees are evil, the Red Sox are good and honest and clean. I just like a little reality in my life.

It's what I've been saying for years. Just written better than I could write it. No Manny, no juice, and Ortiz is nothing more than a scrub player. Your hero, Manny cheated. You don't win without Manny. You know it. So you're great season, the great comeback, was orchestrated by frauds. Great day for Yankee fans.
No, I've never said the good and evil stuff. This is the fantasy you keep telling yourself to place yourself on the false pedestal you do.

Look at the path Simmons takes to get to his conclusions, and it's not just about Ortiz or Ramirez. It's thoughtless, mouth breathing drivel. It's the same path you take to your conclusions. There's no surprise they are the same.

Look, I have no problem accepting the possibility that any and all players from that team were using something. I just need something more than, "They were good, so they were using". If this is the criteria, every good team is suspect, and therefore, none of them are tainted since they all share the same assumed source of success. Get it. So, that great comeback, came on a level field, right?

[example1]

Great day for Yankee fans.

It's funny when the best franchise in sports is reduced to this. Rivera in the high 80's with a sore shoulder, clearly the 3rd best team in the AL East, a stadium that can't sell out seats behind home plate, disappointing production from 400m worth of contracts, a disappointing farm system and repeated steroid concerns of their own, and it's "a great day for Yankee fans".

:lol:

[a700hitter]

It's funny when the best franchise in sports is reduced to this. Rivera in the high 80's with a sore shoulder, clearly the 3rd best team in the AL East, a stadium that can't sell out seats behind home plate, disappointing production from 400m worth of contracts, a disappointing farm system and repeated steroid concerns of their own, and it's "a great day for Yankee fans".

:lol:Great post. Yankee fans are getting very very bitter. It must be the result of realizing that your team is no longer a prominent team.

[yankees228]

It's funny when the best franchise in sports is reduced to this. Rivera in the high 80's with a sore shoulder, clearly the 3rd best team in the AL East, a stadium that can't sell out seats behind home plate, disappointing production from 400m worth of contracts, a disappointing farm system and repeated steroid concerns of their own, and it's "a great day for Yankee fans".

:lol:

For what's worth, Gom's sentiment does not represent the Yankee fans that really have respect for the sport. This doesn't vindicate what the Yankee players have done or may have done. This has nothing to do with the Yankees. This is about one of the best hitters in the history of the game failing a drug test.

[BoSox21]

of course not, Gom is a troll and nothing more

[Gom]

I love this.

See, the difference between me and most of you guys is that I accept that the players I root/rooted for did steroids. It sucks, but I'm realistic about it. For all the people that defended Manny, and the great comeback by the Red Sox [or choke by the Yankees, depending on your POV], realize it doesn't happen without your best player doing steroids.

Accept it. Accept that Manny, and most likely Papi, are frauds just as much as Arod is. The majority of you can't do it. You can't accept the fact that your championships are tainted by the ugly spectre of steroids.

That's why I love it. You won in 2004 and 2007, but your players cheated to win.

For everyone of you that loved it when Arod got caught...the shoe's on the other foot. When we laugh about it, we troll..but when you do, it's acceptable? I love the hypocrisy. At least Simmons, an ardent Red Sox fan, accepts it and says..hey...it hurts because it takes away from what his team accomplished. The rest of you, for the most part, are too stupid or proud to admit it. I'm here to remind you.

[Gom]

Look at the path Simmons takes to get to his conclusions, and it's not just about Ortiz or Ramirez. It's thoughtless, mouth breathing drivel. It's the same path you take to your conclusions. There's no surprise they are the same.

Now Simmons writes mouth breathing drivel?

So basically, anyone who disagrees with you, whether it be me, or anyone else here, or respected writers in the media, are idiots? We're all idiots, and you're God's gift to baseball knowledge?

Is that how it works? Please take your meds in a timely fashion, old man.

[BoSox21]

For all the people that defended Manny, and the great comeback by the Red Sox [or choke by the Yankees, depending on your POV], realize it doesn't happen without your best player doing steroids.

Accept it. Accept that Manny, and most likely Papi, are frauds just as much as Arod is. The majority of you can't do it. You can't accept the fact that your championships are tainted by the ugly spectre of steroids.

That's why I love it. You won in 2004 and 2007, but your players cheated to win.

What is it you don't understand? The '04 Sox, with a roided Manny, beat the '04 Yankees, with a roided A-Rod and Sheffield. A tainted team beat a tainted team and you know what, you can say that for EVERY SINGLE MAJOR LEAGUE GAME that has been played for at least the last two decades.

Guess what, Gom? The Yankees '03 ALCS win....is tainted!

[example1]

I love this.

See, the difference between me and most of you guys is that I accept that the players I root/rooted for did steroids. It sucks, but I'm realistic about it. For all the people that defended Manny, and the great comeback by the Red Sox [or choke by the Yankees, depending on your POV], realize it doesn't happen without your best player doing steroids.

Accept it. Accept that Manny, and most likely Papi, are frauds just as much as Arod is. The majority of you can't do it. You can't accept the fact that your championships are tainted by the ugly spectre of steroids.

That's why I love it. You won in 2004 and 2007, but your players cheated to win.



You can't show me a single post here where people said "the 2004 championship was won without steroids".

You can't. Go. Look for one. Otherwise, your point is baseless and simply a deflection of the fact that your team has been a massive disappointment and you're still bragging about what a great day it is to be a Yankee fan.

For what it's worth, Manny Ramirez is suspended and missing 50 games... with the Dodgers. He was traded to get Jason Bay, who may or may not be on steroids, but who is carrying this team offensively right now. Sox fans have no problems with the way things turned out.

[Gom]

What is it you don't understand? The '04 Sox, with a roided Manny, beat the '04 Yankees, with a roided A-Rod and Sheffield. A tainted team beat a tainted team and you know what, you can say that for EVERY SINGLE MAJOR LEAGUE GAME that has been played for at least the last two decades.

Guess what, Gom? The Yankees '03 ALCS win....is tainted!

Include Papi there too. Unless you want to believe a player who was a marginal player, was picked up by the Red Sox, gained about 30 pounds of muscle and became a superstar...who strangely, after testing was introduced and bans created, became a crappy player again.

Like I said...I accept it. You guys don't. You don't believe it, read the post above this one.

[BoSox21]

We're supposed to accept that Ortiz was on steroids where there is no evidence or even hearsay about it aside from the fact that the guy hitting behind him did roids? And if we don't, we're being hypocrites?

Posada hit .338 in 2005 and he's a .277 career hitter, he did steroids. If you don't believe that, you're a hypocrite.

Rivera had his best season as a 38 year old, he did steroids. If you don't believe that, you're a hypocrite.

Do you even believe the shit you write up anymore?

[example1]

Include Papi there too. Unless you want to believe a player who was a marginal player, was picked up by the Red Sox, gained about 30 pounds of muscle and became a superstar...who strangely, after testing was introduced and bans created, became a crappy player again.

Like I said...I accept it. You guys don't. You don't believe it, read the post above this one.

nobody denies that steroids were a problem for every team. show me where they did.

[Gom]

We're supposed to accept that Ortiz was on steroids where there is no evidence or even hearsay about it? And if we don't, we're being hypocrites?

Do you even believe the shit you write up anymore?

You really believe he wasnt? What do you really think? No hearsay about it?

Try these articles:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/02/19/2009-02-19_arods_pal_the_tainted_trainer_steroidlin.html?p age=0

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsports.yahoo.com%2Fmlb%2Fnews%3Fs lug%3Dortizsteroids&ei=Gt8ESqrpA8yYtgfrrtCKBw&usg=AFQjCNE1E3uU9_QoqbpC-qEnycGIh1JnXQ&sig2=LHca6gjor0vJQ7ZBxdELeg

What we've seen in baseball when it comes to steroids...is that when there is smoke...there's usually fire.

[example1]

We're supposed to accept that Ortiz was on steroids where there is no evidence or even hearsay about it? And if we don't, we're being hypocrites?

Do you even believe the shit you write up anymore?

Maybe he was, so what? It is foolish to pretend that no proof is a free pass. Sox still won in 04 and 07 and the Yankees didnt. Gom doesnt want us to enjoy that fact anymore, but he can F himself. He is a season ticket yankee fan, so why should we expect otherwise? Remember, it is a great day to be a yankee fan. 3rd place baby.

[Gom]

We're supposed to accept that Ortiz was on steroids where there is no evidence or even hearsay about it aside from the fact that the guy hitting behind him did roids? And if we don't, we're being hypocrites?

Posada hit .338 in 2005 and he's a .277 career hitter, he did steroids. If you don't believe that, you're a hypocrite.

Rivera had his best season as a 38 year old, he did steroids. If you don't believe that, you're a hypocrite.

Do you even believe the shit you write up anymore?

How am I a hypocrite? I realize that the players on my team do steroids. Do I believe Arod took PEDs as a Yankee? Absolutely. Posada? Probably. Mariano? I'd be surprised, as his velocity has been slowly decreasing over the years...and he's kind of an anomaly anyways in the sense that he's basically made a career out of one pitch, and hasn't gotten bigger than he was as a rookie.

Rivera having a career year is more due to....drum roll please....Molina behind the plate more than anything else. Also...relievers have a lot of luck in their ERAs.

[rhet]

Jeter's HR production has dropped dramatically since testing was implemented.
Hmmm...

[BoSox21]

You really believe he wasnt? What do you really think? No hearsay about it?

For now, I really don't think he was cause from what we've seen over the past few years, it doesn't matter how big the name is, they get outed. And Ortiz hasn't been named in any legal document or outright accused by anyone and the only "proof" is that he was associated with a trainer who seems to have been friends with every Dominican player or that there might've been something in a shake he drank under a mango tree in the DR as a kid.

[Gom]

:)

[example1]

How am I a hypocrite? I realize that the players on my team do steroids. Do I believe Arod took PEDs as a Yankee? Absolutely. Posada? Probably. Mariano? I'd be surprised, as his velocity has been slowly decreasing over the years...and he's kind of an anomaly anyways in the sense that he's basically made a career out of one pitch, and hasn't gotten bigger than he was as a rookie.

Rivera having a career year is more due to....drum roll please....Molina behind the plate more than anything else. Also...relievers have a lot of luck in their ERAs.

Name a Yankee star over the past 15 years who you are absolutely certain did not take PEDS at some point... if you cant then we are all in the same boat and everyone is under suspicion. Your all knowing ways have the same limits as ours Gom, and yet again you are no more clear headed or unbiased as most here.

[BoSox21]

How am I a hypocrite? I realize that the players on my team do steroids. Do I believe Arod took PEDs as a Yankee? Absolutely. Posada? Probably. Mariano? I'd be surprised, as his velocity has been slowly decreasing over the years...and he's kind of an anomaly anyways in the sense that he's basically made a career out of one pitch, and hasn't gotten bigger than he was as a rookie.

Rivera having a career year is more due to....drum roll please....Molina behind the plate more than anything else. Also...relievers have a lot of luck in their ERAs.

yea...you're full of excuses for Rivera but don't give Ortiz any benefit of the doubt. Guess what, Brian Roberts never got any bigger either...

answer me this, is the pennant the Yankees won in '03 tainted? are any of the WS titles they won in the late 90s tainted?

[rhet]

yea...you're full of excuses for Rivera but don't give Ortiz any benefit of the doubt. Guess what, Brian Roberts never got any bigger either...

answer me this, is the pennant the Yankees won in '03 tainted? are any of the WS titles they won in the late 90s tainted?

Take away those Giambi HRs in the 03 ALCS and NY loses.

[Gom]

Jeter's HR production has dropped dramatically since testing was implemented.
Hmmm...

ROFLMAO!!!!

Jeter's home run total? Holy shit, that was funny.

Name a Yankee star over the past 15 years who you are absolutely certain did not take PEDS at some point... if you cant then we are all in the same boat and everyone is under suspicion. Your all knowing ways have the same limits as ours Gom, and yet again you are no more clear headed or unbiased as most here.
None. I'd be surprised if Rivera took roids..but that's biased as he's my favorite player, and really nice guy who I've met. Same with Bernie. I'd be surprised at Jeter as well.

Am I certain that anyone didn't do it? Not at all.


yea...you're full of excuses for Rivera but don't give Ortiz any benefit of the doubt. Guess what, Brian Roberts never got any bigger either...

answer me this, is the pennant the Yankees won in '03 tainted? are any of the WS titles they won in the late 90s tainted?
Rivera didn't come out of nowhere, join a new team, and then miraculously turn around and become a great hitter. He also didn't drop off the face of the earth after stricter steroid testing was introduced.

Of course they're tainted. I will never again have that pure joy of really winning a championship. That feeling of winning a championship due to clutch, or heart, etc. is gone. Now, the team that has the best masking agent wins.

[BoSox21]

Take away those Giambi HRs in the 03 ALCS and NY loses.

Take away Manny's production and the Sox don't even get to Game 7

My point is for the last few decades, its been juiced up teams beating juiced up teams, that's just the way baseball was/is

[rhet]

Manny's contribution to both championships is overrated.

[Coco's Disciples]

Manny's contributions to both championships is overrated.

Holy shit.

[BoSox21]

Rivera didn't come out of nowhere, join a new team, and then miraculously turn around and become a great hitter. He also didn't drop off the face of the earth after stricter steroid testing was introduced.

going from 20 homers to 31 is a miraculous turn around?

look, its always been in the back of my mind that Ortiz could have done steroids but if names like Clemens, Bonds, Sheffield, Giambi, Palmeiro, Rodriguez and Ramirez can be outed, I'll wait and see if Ortiz gets outed. Until then, I'll believe he didn't do them and not go by circumstantial evidence.

but I'm glad you at least acknowledge the last four Yankee titles and the last six WS appearances are tainted just like I believe the last two Sox WS titles are tainted but in a twisted way, its justified cause it was tainted teams beating tainted teams and if anyone believes the Sox happened to be the only clean team yet somehow are the premier organization in baseball in this century, you're being naive

[jacksonianmarch]

I would be surprised if Rivera and Bernie ever juiced. Rivera, mostly because he works short innings, has pristine mechanices, has a big frame and works off one pitch. I think that helped his longevity more than anything. Bernie mostly because he got fatter and started to suck at around 32, 33.

[BoSox21]

who the hell brought up Bernie? there's no way someone hopped up on roid rage could make sweet love to a guitar like he does

[example1]

None. I'd be surprised if Rivera took roids..but that's biased as he's my favorite player, and really nice guy who I've met. Same with Bernie. I'd be surprised at Jeter as well.

Am I certain that anyone didn't do it? Not at all.


So, how are those of us who are in the same position--skeptical of just about everyone, pretty confident in some certain players, and still fans of our hometown team--being hypocritical if we celebrate our team winning and your team losing?

I'm pretty confident that guys like Mueller and Dave Roberts didn't use. I can't be sure, but I'm pretty confident. At the same time, I acknowledge fully that it isn't a coincidence that the 2003 and 2004 teams had some of the highest SLG in history. That said, they still beat the Yankees, who were also enhancing their performance--as were the Royals, White Sox, Blue Jays, Marlins, Giants, Cubs, etc.,

[rician blast]

You can't accept the fact that your championships are tainted by the ugly spectre of steroids.


How are they tainted? If the opponent's players are using too, isn't it a level playing field?

[Gom]

So, how are those of us who are in the same position--skeptical of just about everyone, pretty confident in some certain players, and still fans of our hometown team--being hypocritical if we celebrate our team winning and your team losing?

I'm pretty confident that guys like Mueller and Dave Roberts didn't use. I can't be sure, but I'm pretty confident. At the same time, I acknowledge fully that it isn't a coincidence that the 2003 and 2004 teams had some of the highest SLG in history. That said, they still beat the Yankees, who were also enhancing their performance--as were the Royals, White Sox, Blue Jays, Marlins, Giants, Cubs, etc.,

I said most of you guys, example1..and you know I wouldn't include you in it. You're not hypocritical if you celebrate your team winning and your rivals losing.

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

[rician blast]

I would be surprised if Rivera and Bernie ever juiced. Rivera, mostly because he works short innings, has pristine mechanices, has a big frame and works off one pitch.

This is naive, blind faith or very hopeful.

[example1]

I would be surprised if Rivera and Bernie ever juiced. Rivera, mostly because he works short innings, has pristine mechanices, has a big frame and works off one pitch. I think that helped his longevity more than anything. Bernie mostly because he got fatter and started to suck at around 32, 33.

That's the problem though, right? I mean, Rivera either happens to be the best closer in the history of the game at a time when more players were juicing, or he was keeping up with the competitive advantage. The more players that come under fire, the more likely I am to just suspect everyone.

Over the past two days I've convinced myself that Pedro was juicing. I have no proof, just strong suspicions.

Bernie I just don't know. I suspect he did, but why wouldn't he have juiced a lot when he started to decline?

Here's how I see it: the Yankees can take some pride that a core of their championship teams appears to not have been juicing: Rivera, Jeter, Bernie. The Sox can take some pride that a core of their championships (and especially their current team) appear to not juice. I would be pretty surprised if Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Beckett or Dice-K were juicing. Papelbon, Ortiz, Manny... I can't speak for them. Papelbon is on something, he's a nutcase! :lol:

[TedWilliams101]

I said most of you guys, example1..and you know I wouldn't include you in it. You're not hypocritical if you celebrate your team winning and your rivals losing.

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

I think that had more to do with the fact that he is our hated (though respected) rival that just got ousted. I'm sure most people weren't ignorant to believe that the Red Sox were clean and the Yankees were all juicers, we were just reveling in the fact that another big Yankee was caught taking roids.

[BoSox21]

Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

The Selena Roberts book says he juiced with the Yankees in '04

[example1]

I said most of you guys, example1..and you know I wouldn't include you in it. You're not hypocritical if you celebrate your team winning and your rivals losing.

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

I loved it when he was caught, but mostly because it became a huge firestorm for the Yankees, an embarassment for a big-headed, holier than thou franchise, and a reflection that the Yankees huge spending (and their fans' drooling over it) is ill advised.

I want Sox fans to realize that spending the most money for the biggest name isn't always the best way to go, and I think when the Yankees trip and fall on their face by doing it, Sox fans get a really nice perspective on why our FO is better.

Remember, the Sox picked Ortiz up for nothing. They traded Nomar for 3 guys who most likely didn't use. They tried to release Manny and tried to trade him year after year. THey didn't re-sign Pedro, or Damon. From what I can see they like having home grown (i.e., substance contolled) players and they don't like having steroids on their team if possible. It is sometimes inevitable, and given how much money they spend players will often hide their usage. I'm not saying that they are pristine, but I actually have faith that they see the negative side of their players being implicated in steroid controversy and would avoid players who have those concerns.

That said, I think Mark Teixeira looks like he uses and the Sox made hard runs at him, and A-Rod, and Clemens. Again, no team is pristine.

[Gom]

He juiced in 2007. There is little doubt about that. When Ortiz realized he was about to be released, he starting juicing. He only stopped when he realized if he got caught, that would be it for him and his legacy in Boston.

I didn't know what I was taking...the funny thing is that some people believe that line. What a crock of shit.

[rhet]

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY.

And Manny was caught with the Dodgers... not with the Red Sox.

[Coco's Disciples]

And Manny was caught with the Dodgers... not with the Red Sox.

He used in Boston just as much as A-Rod used in New York.

[rhet]

Some of what we are discussing is fact, and a lot is just speculation.

Manny's declining numbers in Boston the last three years aren't evidence of PEDs.

[rician blast]

ROFLMAO!!!!

Jeter's home run total? Holy shit, that was funny.



For the record, I suspect Jeter used, likely somewhere around 1999-2004. Seems to me he put on a little bit of mass (legs mainly) and has since trimmed down again. Could be wrong, just a hunch based on a subtle change in physique and what I believe goes on in the heads of baseball's top players.

As for HR numbers?

1996 10
1997 10
1998 18
1999 24
2000 15
2001 21
2002 18
2003 10 (only 119 games)
2004 23
2005 19
2006 14
2007 12
2008 11 (34 yrs old)

Tough to conclude anything...did he spike in 1998-2004 because of experience and a maturing body? Could be. Did he tail off in 2006-2008 because he's old? Not likely, he was only 34 in 2008.

Not everyone gets the same results from using, not all users use for the same reason and not all PEDs have the same effect...so looking at power numbers won't tell the whole story in every case.

He may never have touched a PED..or he may have used in those years where he had respectable HR numbers...or he may have used studd his entire career. We just don't know...but I'm not naive enough to say "he didn't do it" or "LOL" at the comment regarding hsi HR numbers, because just about every guy that's tested positive, been named in investigations or simply been under great scrutiny based on various evidence are guys I had on my list.

[Gom]

That's it. Jeter juiced. Look at his homerun totals. He broke 20 three times.

Clueless....

[ORS]

Ortiz hit 20 in Minnesota, 40 with the Sox. That's, wait for it, 100&#37; more.

Now look at Jeter's baseline outside the window Rician highlighted. Inside the window it's, wait for it, about 100% more. Funny how that works, right?

Apply your standard of proof equally, and he's guilty. You painted yourself in a corner.

[ORS]

Now Simmons writes mouth breathing drivel?

So basically, anyone who disagrees with you, whether it be me, or anyone else here, or respected writers in the media, are idiots? We're all idiots, and you're God's gift to baseball knowledge?

Is that how it works? Please take your meds in a timely fashion, old man.
Gom, stupid is stupid. I don't care what someone does for their career, if they write/say something stupid, it's fair game. You are free to disagree, but you seem to lack the capacity of understanding that the title of a person espousing an idea doesn't make the person right.

For the record, I think Simmons sucks. Any writer that makes points about sports by relating them to 80's sitcoms blows goats, IMO. There is one area where he does have some chops, but I don't care about it. He's pretty good when he's breaking down basketball. For all other sports, I tune him out.

I accepted a long time ago that every single one of the Sox championship teams could have been using. Simmons isn't stupid for thinking the same thing. It's how he gets there and the conclusion he makes. He assumes the 2004 team all used, which is fine, but he does so by stating that his assumption is based on them having good years. Guess what so did a shitload of other players on other teams that year. This is at odds with his reason for writing the article, coming to grips with a tainted championship. The failure of logic there is pretty clear. If the standard of evidence is that a good year constitutes using, then you have a lot of players using on a lot of teams, and every playoff team must be chock full of users. Hindsight is revealing this to be the case. However, if it's pervaisive, there's no taint, other than the original opinion.

[TheKilo]

Rivera having a career year is more due to....drum roll please....Molina behind the plate more than anything else. Also...relievers have a lot of luck in their ERAs.

LOL FRAMING PITCHES!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Gom - Sox won two tainted world titles. And it still feels fucking awesome.

Your team of roided freaks missed the playoffs this past season and are fighting to stay out of the cellar this weekend.

$200 million steroid bank that can't do shit for a decade - how pathetic.

[ARod2212]

Ortiz hit 20 in Minnesota, 40 with the Sox. That's, wait for it, 100% more.

Now look at Jeter's baseline outside the window Rician highlighted. Inside the window it's, wait for it, about 100% more. Funny how that works, right?

Apply your standard of proof equally, and he's guilty. You painted yourself in a corner.
And if a player went from 5 to 10 homeruns that's a 100% increase too.

And if a player went from 40 to 80 homeruns, that's a 100% increase!

You get that as the numbers go up the more ridiculous you sound, right? A jump from 10 to 20 homers is not nearly as unusual as a jump from 20 to 40.

Just as a jump from 5 to 10 homers isn't as unusual as a jump from 40 to 80. Hell, Bonds only increased 50% from 49 to 73.

[ARod2212]

LOL FRAMING PITCHES!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Gom - Sox won two tainted world titles. And it still feels fucking awesome.

Your team of roided freaks missed the playoffs this past season and are fighting to stay out of the cellar this weekend.

$200 million steroid bank that can't do shit for a decade - how pathetic.
I've been to 4 Yankee parades in Manhattan, I'm content with my team's history.

[BoSox21]

I've been to 4 Yankee parades in Manhattan, I'm content with my team's history.

4 tainted parades. the air was thick with taint at each parade as they went down the tainted street in their tainted floats made out of tainted wood.

[ORS]

And if a player went from 5 to 10 homeruns that's a 100% increase too.

And if a player went from 40 to 80 homeruns, that's a 100% increase!

You get that as the numbers go up the more ridiculous you sound, right? A jump from 10 to 20 homers is not nearly as unusual as a jump from 20 to 40.

Just as a jump from 5 to 10 homers isn't as unusual as a jump from 40 to 80. Hell, Bonds only increased 50% from 49 to 73.
You can't apply the simple concept either. Not surprising.

Comparing two players on raw numbers is folly, that is unless they are very comparable in physical size, strength, and talent. If they aren't, you need to look at baseline and make increases relative to the baseline talent.

Gom's conclusion was that 20 HR is such a low number that it should be beyond suspicion. This is stupid. If you agree with him, you are stupid. Derek Jeter unassisted by PEDs does not have the same baseline power as David Ortiz unassistend by PEDs.

I'm not saying either used, but if the standard is increased power, as Gom suggests, both are equally guilty.

[ARod2212]

4 tainted parades. the air was thick with taint at each parade as they went down the tainted street in their tainted floats made out of tainted wood.
Actually it was fun. Some chicks showed their boobs.

[ORS]

Tainted boobs.

[ARod2212]

You can't apply the simple concept either. Not surprising.

Comparing two players on raw numbers is folly, that is unless they are very comparable in physical size, strength, and talent. If they aren't, you need to look at baseline and make increases relative to the baseline talent.

Gom's conclusion was that 20 HR is such a low number that it should be beyond suspicion. This is stupid. If you agree with him, you are stupid. Derek Jeter unassisted by PEDs does not have the same baseline power as David Ortiz unassistend by PEDs.

I'm not saying either used, but if the standard is increased power, as Gom suggests, both are equally guilty.

I wasn't reading the whole conversation, so I understand what you're getting at with different body types.

If I took enough steroids to hit 6 homeruns in the major leagues, nobody may think anything of it, but I definitely cheated to get there.


I just saw a raw number comparison and thought it was pointless.

[TheKilo]

I've been to 4 Yankee parades in Manhattan, I'm content with my team's history.

COUNT THE RINGZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Coco's Disciples]

http://nyystadiuminsider.com/uploaded_images/yankee_fan-739206.jpg

[example1]

He juiced in 2007. There is little doubt about that.

There is plenty of doubt about it. There is plenty of reason to suspect it too, but at least get your catch phrases right. If there is little doubt about something then it is conventional wisdom. There is little doubt that Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever, or that Evander Holifield had Mike Tyson's number.

There exists plenty of doubt that Ortiz juiced at any particular time, as there is no actual proof that he did. You can speculate all you want, but the proof hasn't been revealed... it wouldn't take much.

Again, I wouldn't be shocked if he did, but get your phrasing right if you want to be precise or clearly understood.


Personally, I'm ready to start by writing off anyone who hit more than 50 HRs since 1980. Here's that list (multiple winners listed only once):

Greg Vaughn
Sammy Sosa
Prince Fielder
Albert Belle
Brady Anderson
Andruw Jones
Cecil Fielder
Jim Thome
Alex Rodriguez
Mark McGwire
David Ortiz
Ken Griffey Jr
Luis Gonzalez
Ryan Howard
Barry Bonds

That's the list. Not a name on there that I trust enough to stick my neck out and say they were clean.

Furthermore, let's look at the list of teams who have won since 1995. I bet I could list a few players from each team who could be suspected of concurrent or future PED use and who would, in Gom's thinking, taint the WS victory:

1995: Atlanta Braves (Ryan Klesko, Javy Lopez, David Justice, Chipper Jones)

1996: New York Yankees (Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Ruben Sierra, Jim Leyritz, Straw, Cecil Fielder, Jorge Posada, Pettitte, Kenny Rogers, Steve Howe, John Wetteland, Mariano Rivera)

1997: Florida Marlins (Charles Johnson, Bobby Bonilla, Moises Alou, Gary Sheffield, Kevin Brown)

1998: New York Yankees (Posada, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Paul O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera, Borowski)

1999: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Clemens, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera)

2000: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Justice, Jose Canseco, Glenallen Hill (?), Pettitte, Clemens, Gooden (?), Nelson/Stanton

2001: Arizona Diamondbacks (Matt Williams, Luis Gonzalez, Reggie Sanders)

2002: Anaheim Angels (Glaus, Salmon, Garret Anderson (?), Percival, Ben Weber, Brendan Donnelly)

2003: Florida Marlins (Ivan Rodriguez, Ugueth Urbina)

2004: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Millar, Manny, Damon, Kapler, Ortiz, Nomar, Nixon, Pedro, Lowe, Timlin, Foulke)

2005: Chicago White Sox (Paul Konerko, Pierzynski, Carl Everett, Frank Thomas)

2006: St. Louis Cardinals (Albert Pujols, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen)

2007: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Manny, JD Drew, David Ortiz, Julio Lugo, Eric Hinske, Julian Tavarez, Mike Timlin, Brendan Donnelly, JC Romero, Eric Gagne)

2008: Philadelphia Phillies--a bit harder-- (Ryan Howard, Brett Myers, JC Romero)

================

It is complete speculation, but I see no reason to think the above list shouldn't be suspected of PED use. Guys like Donnelly make the list because they just look and act the part, same with Brett Myers, Ugueth Urbina, Carl Everett, etc.,.

If we can agree that there probably wasn't a single WS team in the past 14 years that has won without a PED user contributing in some way, then we are back where we started: namely, with the Red Sox still having 2 WS victories this decade, the Yankees having missed the playoffs last year, and the Yankees still having a record for having paid PED users more than any other team has, and it isn't close (between A-Rod, Clemens, Giamboid, etc.,).

Again, all are tainted, but that doesn't make the Sox success any less real.

[rician blast]

Example, I'm with you. Your list captures a high percentage of those I've always suspected.

[rician blast]

That's it. Jeter juiced. Look at his homerun totals. He broke 20 three times.

(I'm GOM and I am) Clueless....

Jeez, by your logic if a player hits 3 HRs a year for 10 yrs, then juices and hits 15 for the next 5 years, he's not to be suspected because he didn't hit 20?

I'm guessing you're just being a dick with the post above, because somehow I can't imagine you're so ignorant that you don't understand the concept of a spike in performance...meanwhile you conveniently ignore the rest of the post which not only qualified my suspicions but also further supported them based upon criteria that goes beyond the rise and fall of Jeter's numbers.

By the way, fixed your post for you.

[Dipre]

There is plenty of doubt about it. There is plenty of reason to suspect it too, but at least get your catch phrases right. If there is little doubt about something then it is conventional wisdom. There is little doubt that Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever, or that Evander Holifield had Mike Tyson's number.

There exists plenty of doubt that Ortiz juiced at any particular time, as there is no actual proof that he did. You can speculate all you want, but the proof hasn't been revealed... it wouldn't take much.

Again, I wouldn't be shocked if he did, but get your phrasing right if you want to be precise or clearly understood.


Personally, I'm ready to start by writing off anyone who hit more than 50 HRs since 1980. Here's that list (multiple winners listed only once):

Greg Vaughn
Sammy Sosa
Prince Fielder
Albert Belle
Brady Anderson
Andruw Jones
Cecil Fielder
Jim Thome
Alex Rodriguez
Mark McGwire
David Ortiz
Ken Griffey Jr
Luis Gonzalez
Ryan Howard
Barry Bonds

That's the list. Not a name on there that I trust enough to stick my neck out and say they were clean.

Furthermore, let's look at the list of teams who have won since 1995. I bet I could list a few players from each team who could be suspected of concurrent or future PED use and who would, in Gom's thinking, taint the WS victory:

1995: Atlanta Braves (Ryan Klesko, Javy Lopez, David Justice, Chipper Jones)

1996: New York Yankees (Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Ruben Sierra, Jim Leyritz, Straw, Cecil Fielder, Jorge Posada, Pettitte, Kenny Rogers, Steve Howe, John Wetteland, Mariano Rivera)

1997: Florida Marlins (Charles Johnson, Bobby Bonilla, Moises Alou, Gary Sheffield, Kevin Brown)

1998: New York Yankees (Posada, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Paul O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera, Borowski)

1999: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Clemens, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera)

2000: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Justice, Jose Canseco, Glenallen Hill (?), Pettitte, Clemens, Gooden (?), Nelson/Stanton

2001: Arizona Diamondbacks (Matt Williams, Luis Gonzalez, Reggie Sanders)

2002: Anaheim Angels (Glaus, Salmon, Garret Anderson (?), Percival, Ben Weber, Brendan Donnelly)

2003: Florida Marlins (Ivan Rodriguez, Ugueth Urbina)

2004: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Millar, Manny, Damon, Kapler, Ortiz, Nomar, Nixon, Pedro, Lowe, Timlin, Foulke)

2005: Chicago White Sox (Paul Konerko, Pierzynski, Carl Everett, Frank Thomas)

2006: St. Louis Cardinals (Albert Pujols, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen)

2007: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Manny, JD Drew, David Ortiz, Julio Lugo, Eric Hinske, Julian Tavarez, Mike Timlin, Brendan Donnelly, JC Romero, Eric Gagne)

2008: Philadelphia Phillies--a bit harder-- (Ryan Howard, Brett Myers, JC Romero)

================

It is complete speculation, but I see no reason to think the above list shouldn't be suspected of PED use. Guys like Donnelly make the list because they just look and act the part, same with Brett Myers, Ugueth Urbina, Carl Everett, etc.,.

If we can agree that there probably wasn't a single WS team in the past 14 years that has won without a PED user contributing in some way, then we are back where we started: namely, with the Red Sox still having 2 WS victories this decade, the Yankees having missed the playoffs last year, and the Yankees still having a record for having paid PED users more than any other team has, and it isn't close (between A-Rod, Clemens, Giamboid, etc.,).

Again, all are tainted, but that doesn't make the Sox success any less real.

That's a really well constructed post.

However, i couldn't help but LOL when i saw you write JD Glass in your list of *possible* users.

[Lil D-Ped]

Actually it was fun. Some chicks showed their boobs.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was probably the only time that has ever happened to you, you seem so excited

[Coco's Disciples]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was probably the only time that has ever happened to you, you seem so excited

Dude nice joke man.

[ARod2212]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was probably the only time that has ever happened to you, you seem so excited
You'll like girls when you get older, it's okay.

[castigs850]

OOOOOOOO
thats what i like to seeeeee, a shitty joke slammed back in yo face with a shitty shitty comeback

[Lil D-Ped]

You'll like girls when you get older, it's okay.

oh nice comeback.. not

[CrespoBlows]

oh nice comeback.. not

lol saving face attempt fail.

[Lil D-Ped]

OOOOOOOO
thats what i like to seeeeee, a shitty joke slammed back in yo face with a shitty shitty comeback

that is true. but seriously who would say "it was so fun, and girls were showing off their boobs" like its a big freaking deal. Not gonna lie, he sounded like some nerd virgin whos never seen boobs in his life. do you want a cookie for that?

[Lil D-Ped]

lol saving face attempt fail.

you mean Arod2212? you got it

[CrespoBlows]

that is true. but seriously who would say "it was so fun, and girls were showing off their boobs" like its a big freaking deal. Not gonna lie, he sounded like some nerd virgin whos never seen boobs in his life. do you want a cookie for that?

I'm guessing he was 10 or 11 when it happened.

[CrespoBlows]

you mean Arod2212? you got it

I quoted you.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[schillingouttheks]

that is true. but seriously who would say "it was so fun, and girls were showing off their boobs" like its a big freaking deal. Not gonna lie, he sounded like some nerd virgin whos never seen boobs in his life. do you want a cookie for that?

Not gunna lie... I've seen lots of boobs and they never get old. I'd be pretty excited if girls were flashing everyone.