The Obama Deception

[CrespoBlows]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886780711843120756

lol soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo deep wat a mindfuk rite? FROM THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF LoOsE ChAnGe!

Has anyone tried to sit through this? I managed ten minutes. If they told me that a vote for Barack Obama would make Alex Jones go away, I would gladly vote for him.

100% chance that NateGrey believes in this.

[RedSoxRooter]

I made it to minute 26! I deserve some sort of special privileges for that, don't I?

I love conspiracy theories and I love film, but when the guy was filming himself during a fire alarm talking to a conservative radio host (16 million listeners!) about the conspiracy, sort of advancing the story because he had no story, I just stopped.

I agree with the Maddux Mission response to Loose Change. If this shit's real, then the person who put this on GOOGLE would be dead right now (they already killed Kennedy for much less) and we'd have never seen this link to begin with. I really wish I had as much time as this guy does to go around filming whatever it would be I'd film, must me nice. Personally, I'd waste my time on a Zombie movie involving talksox members! ;)

Also, if Obama was placed into office based on his appearance (as being change but not really) then AT LEAST the shadow government is giving the people the appearance that they're getting what the want (even if they don't really get it). In Iran, the people don't even get that! The shadow gov there just says, "here's your president, go fuck yourself. God is great!!! AYANAY6AYAYYAAYYAGGGAGAAATATTAAAAAT!!!!! (throws shoes at monitor)"

So we still got it pretty ok in the world.

[MANNYHOF24]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886780711843120756

lol soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo deep wat a mindfuk rite? FROM THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF LoOsE ChAnGe!

Has anyone tried to sit through this? I managed ten minutes. If they told me that a vote for Barack Obama would make Alex Jones go away, I would gladly vote for him.

100% chance that NateGrey believes in this.

I think most of its total bullshit, but Crespo what do you make of the Federal Reserve? I have had a couple of friends try and convince me that it is a pretty corrupted organization that definitely does pull some strings in Washington.

[CrespoBlows]

Ask your friends if they have ever seen the movie Zeitgeist. If they have, then any information they tell you can safely be ignored.

About the Fed, I think it is safe to say that a organization that is given the power to print money at will, given control of the entire monetary system, and subjected to no supervision is going to end up with very bad results.

[TedWilliams101]

I have to admit, the whole "Obama Mania" did scare me a bit. I admit that I don't know all that much about politics, but it isn't very settling to see so many people worship a guy they really don't know much about. I think very few people actually know who Obama actually is (I certainly don't), so I find it a bit like "blind faith". I don't like jumping on a band wagon just because the media is telling me "this is the guy".

I'm young and I'm not really that worried about the Gov't. I've always thought that if things actually got bad in the future, I'd just move out to Switzerland or somewhere. I'm not exactly one of those loud, obnoxious "I'm an American, and this is the best country on Earth. Fuck everyone else." types, and there are A LOT of them.

[Keeper]

"He is being pushed as savior in an attempt to con the American people into accepting global slavery."

Wait... people actually believe this?

[jacksonianmarch]

they are a bit over the top, but I agree that there is a lot more going on behind the front that Obama gives.

[TheKilo]

they are a bit over the top, but I agree that there is a lot more going on behind the front that Obama gives.

Wow, no other politician in the history of ever doesn't have stuff going on behind the scenes.

[The_Destroyah]

I voted Ron Paul...I dont have a problem with Obama himself but some of the things he is pushing scare me, I dont think he is a flat out socialist but so many of his policies are socialist and thats getting kind of scary being that I think Bush was far too Liberal and our Gov't is getting TOO big to really serve the people, I believe in the free market and keeping Healthcare privatized and the fed has got to go, Im almost more of a Libretarian than Republican but Ron Paul is the only canadite ive seen that i actually "believe" in (dont worry im not a "doomsday" conservative im actually fairly open minded) I just believe in a smaller federal gov't.

sorry for the random rambling...

[TedWilliams101]

I'm completely Libertarian. I really believe that we lost our freedom in this country a long time ago. Personal freedoms are LONG gone. No longer can you do things for "pursuit of happiness", you have to have a good enough reason or they won't let you do it. You can see it everywhere now, seat-belt laws, boating laws, construction laws, the endangered species act; laws against drugs, gambling, prostitution, indecent exposure, the FCC, the list goes on and on. You know we are no longer "free" when you can get arrested for showing off cleavage in public IF you don't have a good reason (by their opinion, not yours).

To many people today just want to have their big TV, watch their football, get laid, and drink. They really don't care about the government until it REALLY fucks with them and it's too late.

[The_Destroyah]

I'm completely Libertarian. I really believe that we lost our freedom in this country a long time ago. Personal freedoms are LONG gone. No longer can you do things for "pursuit of happiness", you have to have a good enough reason or they won't let you do it. You can see it everywhere now, seat-belt laws, boating laws, construction laws, the endangered species act; laws against drugs, gambling, prostitution, indecent exposure, the FCC, the list goes on and on. You know we are no longer "free" when you can get arrested for showing off cleavage in public IF you don't have a good reason (by their opinion, not yours).

To many people today just want to have their big TV, watch their football, get laid, and drink. They really don't care about the government until it REALLY fucks with them and it's too late.

yeah thats why when i tell ppl im conservative they are suprised that i say weed should be legal, gays should be alowwed to be married, and the drinking age should be lowered to 18 (if you are old enough to die for your country you should be old enough to have a beer) the gov't isnt there to dictate how we live our lives infact the federal gov't should be responsible for very little and everything else should be moved down to the state or local gov'ts which would better represent every individuals ideals...

[TedWilliams101]

Exactly. I'm not sure when the individual got replaced with the community, but it happened, and most people don't mind. It's a very very slippery slope when the community can begin to decide what rights the individual should/shouldn't have. It's the reason why gambling and drugs are illegal, the community and gov't don't like it, so they won't let anyone do it. This country is no longer about individual freedoms.

One of the things I don't like about our government is the fact that only those already in the "machine" (via relations, wealth, etc) can actually do anything. If the government doesn't like what you represent, you have no chance. They won't let you get anywhere. It's almost like a rigged game, they will let you believe you can make a difference, but in the end, they are the ones really in control.

Now, I don't believe most conspiracy theories, but I'm also not naive.

[The_Destroyah]

Exactly. I'm not sure when the individual got replaced with the community, but it happened, and most people don't mind. It's a very very slippery slope when the community can begin to decide what rights the individual should/shouldn't have. It's the reason why gambling and drugs are illegal, the community and gov't don't like it, so they won't let anyone do it. This country is no longer about individual freedoms.

One of the things I don't like about our government is the fact that only those already in the "machine" (via relations, wealth, etc) can actually do anything. If the government doesn't like what you represent, you have no chance. They won't let you get anywhere. It's almost like a rigged game, they will let you believe you can make a difference, but in the end, they are the ones really in control.

Now, I don't believe most conspiracy theories, but I'm also not naive.

exactly, the federal gov't has to have some say in foreign policy, the military, and some federal laws and regulations such as our highway systems certain laws concerning immigrations and upholding the constitution (not "re-interpreting" it) but thats just about it.

[a700hitter]

The posts in this thread give me encouragement that some of the thinking young people are concerned about a government that is increasingly telling (some would say dictating) how we should live our lives. They are already inour pockets with regard to every aspect of our finances and they are increasing their regulation of our leisure activities. They seem to have no compunction about telling us what we can't smoke, eat, display etc. Our freedoms are shrinking every day. The young people need to wake up like the posters in this thread. They are the ones who will have to live with the oppression for decades. Here's what Barney Frank said today at he National Press Club:


I've had people come to us and complain, "Well, if you do that, I can't make any money." The answer is that's not my job. We're not here to help you make money. We are here to help have a system in which you will make money as an incident of your providing funds to those who will use it productively.

This philosophy is scary. I guess many of our elected officials including Mr. Frank think that the primary purpose of our labor is to fund a government which will dictate how the fruits of our labor should be spent.

[The_Destroyah]

The posts in this thread give me encouragement that some of the thinking young people are concerned about a government that is increasingly telling (some would say dictating) how we should live our lives. They are already inour pockets with regard to every aspect of our finances and they are increasing their regulation of our leisure activities. They seem to have no compunction about telling us what we can't smoke, eat, display etc. Our freedoms are shrinking every day. The young people need to wake up like the posters in this thread. They are the ones who will have to live with the oppression for decades. Here's what Barney Frank said today at he National Press Club:



This philosophy is scary. I guess many of our elected officials including Mr. Frank think that the primary purpose of our labor is to fund a government which will dictate how the fruits of our labor should be spent.

yeah im not a fan of government interfering with our personal lives, for example when i was 18 the city i lived in proposed a ban on smoking in public resturaunts, me personally i dont smoke and im not a fan of cigarette smoke when im eating, but I feel that if i dont like it i can eat somewhere else, so a few friends of mine and me decided to sign a petition to stop the proposition and even praticipated in a protest at a favorite local resturaunt and city hall and the local elected officials actually repealed it, that was the first time i realized that if enough ppl actually tried and pushed to make a difference it would help which pushed me to send letters my congressman at the time of the first "stimulus" package but to no avail it was passed anyways (although he did vote against it) and ive started to lose a bit of faith in alot of the country...once again im rambling, sorry for that.

oh and thank you for the compliment by the way a700 :)

[26 to 6]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886780711843120756

lol soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo deep wat a mindfuk rite? FROM THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF LoOsE ChAnGe!

Has anyone tried to sit through this? I managed ten minutes. If they told me that a vote for Barack Obama would make Alex Jones go away, I would gladly vote for him.

100% chance that NateGrey believes in this.
I think that's an ignorant way to look at it. I've seen Obama Deception and learned a lot from it. There's a lot of truth to all these crazy conspiracy theories that have surfaced since 9/11. But like with anything, you need to take them with a grain of salt and interpret them on your own. The one thing I know about all these government conspiracy theories is that there's a lot more truth to them than we might think, and the American government has been corruptly trying to control every aspect of our lives for hundreds of years. This is supposed to be the land of the free, but it's anything but. With all the Masons and elitists we've had in power throughout history you can't help but wonder what the government, and the people above the government (Bilderberg?) really have in store for us. We as Americans need to wake up, end the brainwashing, and get ready to fight. Sometime soon we're all gonna need to revolt, and unless the PEOPLE are on the same page it's going to be impossible to defend ourselves against the militarizes of the world, including our own.

[TedWilliams101]

Well, the 9/11 conspiracies are complete BS.

[26 to 6]

Well, the 9/11 conspiracies are complete BS.
Sure, to an extent.

[The_Destroyah]

Sure, to an extent.

What part of them isnt?
just curious, not tryin to be a dick, im a pretty open minded guy id like to know what you think...

[TedWilliams101]

What part of them isnt?
just curious, not tryin to be a dick, im a pretty open minded guy id like to know what you think...

I think he is probably referring to the Governments knowledge of the attacks. I'm open to the possibility that they received warnings and they either underestimated the scale or validity of the threats or if there was some internal/inter-agency mis-communication. The FBI/CIA get a TON of threats so it's completely possible it fell through the cracks.

[26 to 6]

Well I don't think they're as simple as the conspiracy theorists made them seem. But it's hard to ignore the enormous profits that a lot of people made on 9/11. All elite people who would know of things like this. It's funny how Larry Silverstein opened up a new $4 billion insurance policy on the WTC a month before the attacks. It's hard to ignore the business connections between members of the Bush administration and Middle Eastern companies, some of which include people who fund Al Queda and other terrorist organizations. There's tons and tons of information on it, and I could go on for days, but simply put this is how I feel about it: I think that it was something that was in the works for a long time. 9/11 scared the American people so bad that it put the government into a position where it could have an excuse to flex it's muscle towards us, with all of these new National Security policies and such; things that shit on the constitution. As far as the actual conspiracies, a lot of them are bullshit in regards to how they say everything played out; as far missiles hitting building instead of planes, and what planes actually did hit the buildings, and who was piloting them, etc. Bush had ties to people involved with Al Queda. I think all of the FACTUAL evidence presented to us is true, as far as the hijackers and the flights they were on and such. I just think it was too well organized for there not to be an inside aspect to it all. 9/11 gave the government tremendous power, power it's been working towards for hundreds of years. The fact of the matter is we will NEVER know the whole TRUTH, just like with every other event of historical significance in this nation's history. Everything is a big secret, and how can it not be when we live in a country where the foundations were laid by secret societies such as the Freemasons, Skull & Bones, etc, etc, etc.

For a long time I thought all of these theories were 100% bullshit, until as time went on and I started talking with people who were a lot more educated on things like these that opened my eyes to a lot of the brainwashing that the government does. I mean when you look at the big picture it's really scary, scary to think just how much control these people running our country actually have; and not just our country but our WORLD, these elite bankers and businessmen behind the scenes of groups like Bilderberg and other secret societies. They control EVERYTHING. All so they can profit. Everything that's happened in our country, and everything that will happen has already been pre-determined. Despite our views on democracy and what we think about our own freedoms none of that exists in America anymore. They just control our minds into thinking differently. I mean does anybody really think it's a coincidence that Bush and Obama are distantly related? Most of our presidents are. It's these elite families going all the way back to colonial times that control everything. Obama is just another puppet, even more so than G.W.B. He was the perfect candidate to continue carrying out their plans. When everyone grew so tired of Bush, they gave us someone who appeared to be the COMPLETE opposite; an intelligent democrat who has a way of captivating the public with his words, a minority to give everyone in America hope for a better future. But in reality they're exactly the same. Even share the same blood. He's just another puppet for the Illuminati to use to further carry out there plans on a New World Order and one world government. That's why we as Americans need to oppose the things that will be presented to us in the near future; things such as the North American Union, unified currency, martial law, gun control, etc. They knew what buttons they were pushing when they introduced us to Obama, they knew exactly what strings they were pulling. Thats why he won so overwhelmingly. Truth be told, and I wasn't a McCain supporter during the campaign (nor was I an Obama supporter, I actually voted for Ralph Nader by default lol) but we would be much better off with McCain in office right now. We'd be even better off with Ron Paul in office. What we need for this country to survive is for the government to start upholding the constitution, seriously, or for us civilians to fight these powers and start a revolution.

I'm sure I confused you a lot, and I apologize, by going from 9/11 to Obama, to the New World Order, etc. But the truth is ALL of these things are closely connected. I know I sound like an Alex Jones commercial, and believe me I really HATE Alex Jones, but a lot of what he says has a lot of truth to it. This country is in serious trouble. And in the next few years we're going to see exactly what we're in for...if we even make it that long. Time to wake up people, stop trusting and depending on the government. Look into these things; find better, more educated explanations than what I can offer you. But above all, preserve your FREEDOMS.......while we still have them.

[26 to 6]

I think he is probably referring to the Governments knowledge of the attacks. I'm open to the possibility that they received warnings and they either underestimated the scale or validity of the threats or if there was some internal/inter-agency mis-communication. The FBI/CIA get a TON of threats so it's completely possible it fell through the cracks.
It didn't fall through the cracks. That's just a convenient excuse. Everybody in power knew what was happening that day. All of the casualties were unknowing, everyday people like you and me.

[The_Destroyah]

I think he is probably referring to the Governments knowledge of the attacks. I'm open to the possibility that they received warnings and they either underestimated the scale or validity of the threats or if there was some internal/inter-agency mis-communication. The FBI/CIA get a TON of threats so it's completely possible it fell through the cracks.

I might buy that, but i refuse to believe that ANY president would willingly choose to kill 1000s of innocent ppl.

[CrespoBlows]

I think that's an ignorant way to look at it. I've seen Obama Deception and learned a lot from it. There's a lot of truth to all these crazy conspiracy theories that have surfaced since 9/11. But like with anything, you need to take them with a grain of salt and interpret them on your own. The one thing I know about all these government conspiracy theories is that there's a lot more truth to them than we might think, and the American government has been corruptly trying to control every aspect of our lives for hundreds of years. This is supposed to be the land of the free, but it's anything but. With all the Masons and elitists we've had in power throughout history you can't help but wonder what the government, and the people above the government (Bilderberg?) really have in store for us. We as Americans need to wake up, end the brainwashing, and get ready to fight. Sometime soon we're all gonna need to revolt, and unless the PEOPLE are on the same page it's going to be impossible to defend ourselves against the militarizes of the world, including our own.

lol

[CrespoBlows]

Well I don't think they're as simple as the conspiracy theorists made them seem. But it's hard to ignore the enormous profits that a lot of people made on 9/11. All elite people who would know of things like this. It's funny how Larry Silverstein opened up a new $4 billion insurance policy on the WTC a month before the attacks. It's hard to ignore the business connections between members of the Bush administration and Middle Eastern companies, some of which include people who fund Al Queda and other terrorist organizations. There's tons and tons of information on it, and I could go on for days, but simply put this is how I feel about it: I think that it was something that was in the works for a long time. 9/11 scared the American people so bad that it put the government into a position where it could have an excuse to flex it's muscle towards us, with all of these new National Security policies and such; things that shit on the constitution. As far as the actual conspiracies, a lot of them are bullshit in regards to how they say everything played out; as far missiles hitting building instead of planes, and what planes actually did hit the buildings, and who was piloting them, etc. Bush had ties to people involved with Al Queda. I think all of the FACTUAL evidence presented to us is true, as far as the hijackers and the flights they were on and such. I just think it was too well organized for there not to be an inside aspect to it all. 9/11 gave the government tremendous power, power it's been working towards for hundreds of years. The fact of the matter is we will NEVER know the whole TRUTH, just like with every other event of historical significance in this nation's history. Everything is a big secret, and how can it not be when we live in a country where the foundations were laid by secret societies such as the Freemasons, Skull & Bones, etc, etc, etc.

For a long time I thought all of these theories were 100% bullshit, until as time went on and I started talking with people who were a lot more educated on things like these that opened my eyes to a lot of the brainwashing that the government does. I mean when you look at the big picture it's really scary, scary to think just how much control these people running our country actually have; and not just our country but our WORLD, these elite bankers and businessmen behind the scenes of groups like Bilderberg and other secret societies. They control EVERYTHING. All so they can profit. Everything that's happened in our country, and everything that will happen has already been pre-determined. Despite our views on democracy and what we think about our own freedoms none of that exists in America anymore. They just control our minds into thinking differently. I mean does anybody really think it's a coincidence that Bush and Obama are distantly related? Most of our presidents are. It's these elite families going all the way back to colonial times that control everything. Obama is just another puppet, even more so than G.W.B. He was the perfect candidate to continue carrying out their plans. When everyone grew so tired of Bush, they gave us someone who appeared to be the COMPLETE opposite; an intelligent democrat who has a way of captivating the public with his words, a minority to give everyone in America hope for a better future. But in reality they're exactly the same. Even share the same blood. He's just another puppet for the Illuminati to use to further carry out there plans on a New World Order and one world government. That's why we as Americans need to oppose the things that will be presented to us in the near future; things such as the North American Union, unified currency, martial law, gun control, etc. They knew what buttons they were pushing when they introduced us to Obama, they knew exactly what strings they were pulling. Thats why he won so overwhelmingly. Truth be told, and I wasn't a McCain supporter during the campaign (nor was I an Obama supporter, I actually voted for Ralph Nader by default lol) but we would be much better off with McCain in office right now. We'd be even better off with Ron Paul in office. What we need for this country to survive is for the government to start upholding the constitution, seriously, or for us civilians to fight these powers and start a revolution.

I'm sure I confused you a lot, and I apologize, by going from 9/11 to Obama, to the New World Order, etc. But the truth is ALL of these things are closely connected. I know I sound like an Alex Jones commercial, and believe me I really HATE Alex Jones, but a lot of what he says has a lot of truth to it. This country is in serious trouble. And in the next few years we're going to see exactly what we're in for...if we even make it that long. Time to wake up people, stop trusting and depending on the government. Look into these things; find better, more educated explanations than what I can offer you. But above all, preserve your FREEDOMS.......while we still have them.

lol

You hate Alex Jones, and yet you spit out verbatim what that whack job believes.

[26 to 6]

I might buy that, but i refuse to believe that ANY president would willingly choose to kill 1000s of innocent ppl.
It wasn't the president who was entirely behind it. And Bush isn't just ANY president.


lol
Keep laughing.
http://ocw.usu.edu/University_Extension/sheep-and-lambing-management/sheep.jpg

We'll see who's laughing....

[CrespoBlows]

Keep laughing.
http://ocw.usu.edu/University_Extension/sheep-and-lambing-management/sheep.jpg

We'll see who's laughing....

hahahahahaha

Unwarranted self importance.

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2008/05/tinfoil.jpg

[CrespoBlows]

It wasn't the president who was entirely behind it. And Bush isn't just ANY president.




Yeah, according to the Jonesians, W. was the most brilliant President in the history of the Presidency. According to you douches, a bumbling oaf who can't keep photos of torture at Guantanamo secret, managed to pull off the most brilliant conspiracy in the history of this country.

[26 to 6]

Yeah, according to the Jonesians, W. was the most brilliant President in the history of the Presidency. According to you douches, a bumbling oaf who can't keep photos of torture at Guantanamo secret, managed to pull off the most brilliant conspiracy in the history of this country.
He didn't pull off the most brillaint conspiracy in the history of the country, he contributed to the conspiracy that IS the history of this country.

[CrespoBlows]

He didn't pull off the most brillaint conspiracy in the history of the country, he contributed to the conspiracy that IS the history of this country.

Shh...

I'm watching Gerald Celente miss on another prediction.

[a700hitter]

26 to 6 is going to NateGrey University.

[The_Destroyah]

Im sorry i cant call that anything more than incoherent bullshit 26...

[CrespoBlows]

I'm completely Libertarian. I really believe that we lost our freedom in this country a long time ago. Personal freedoms are LONG gone. No longer can you do things for "pursuit of happiness", you have to have a good enough reason or they won't let you do it. You can see it everywhere now, seat-belt laws, boating laws, construction laws, the endangered species act; laws against drugs, gambling, prostitution, indecent exposure, the FCC, the list goes on and on. You know we are no longer "free" when you can get arrested for showing off cleavage in public IF you don't have a good reason (by their opinion, not yours).

To many people today just want to have their big TV, watch their football, get laid, and drink. They really don't care about the government until it REALLY fucks with them and it's too late.

That means you = anarchist.

[26 to 6]

Look, I know I really can't EXPLAIN these things well enough, I'm not educated to. It's all very confusing, to mee too. But I really encourage you all to just look into these things, start questioning things more. I know I sound insane, but really look into the history and background of the people running your country, learn about their intentions and whatnot. I might not be 100% dead on, but we're all in store for something pretty bad, real soon.

[CrespoBlows]

Look, I know I really can't EXPLAIN these things well enough, I'm not educated too. It's all very confusing, to mee too. But I really encourage you all to just look into these things, start questioning things more. I know I sound insane, but really look into the history and background of the people running your country, learn about their intentions and whatnot. I might not be 100% dead on, but we're all in store for something pretty bad, real soon.

You're 0% right in your approach, but I agree with you that we are in store something really bad. There doesn't have to be a 1984-type plot for that to happen.

[Coco's Disciples]

You're 0% wrong in your approach, but I agree with you that we are in store something really bad. There doesn't have to be a 1984-type plot for that to happen.

So you agree with him then?

(This post was unnecessary)

[The_Destroyah]

I think some of the big gov't policies are leading us to a place we dont want to go but i dont think its due to some elaborate conspiracy between freemasons, aliens, and JFKs real assasin.

[yeszir]

Let's not have this devolve into fighting please

[a700hitter]

Let's not have this devolve into fighting pleaseLet's leave the game threads for that.:D

[The_Destroyah]

agreed im not big on discussing politics, alot of ppl get too personal and get too worked up...

[Dipre]

But politics are awesome.

FTR, if someone's gonna shit the bed real bad, they should leave foreign policy regarding Latin America as it is.

[TedWilliams101]

That means you = anarchist.

I'm a complete libertarian, but I do realize a Gov't is a good idea. I just think that the Gov't ought to be as small as absolutely possible. The Gov't shouldn't be making money off the people they are supposed to serve.

[yeszir]

26 to 6 is going to NateGrey University.

This was funny though :lol:

[Dipre]

I'm a complete libertarian, but I do realize a Gov't is a good idea. I just think that the Gov't ought to be as small as absolutely possible. The Gov't shouldn't be making money off the people they are supposed to serve.

Then how do you suggest the state maintain the service/economy/regulation structure?

[The_Destroyah]

I'm a complete libertarian, but I do realize a Gov't is a good idea. I just think that the Gov't ought to be as small as absolutely possible. The Gov't shouldn't be making money off the people they are supposed to serve.

I agree to a certain extent but there are certain things that need to be adressed by the gov't, Libertarians believe that all drugs should be legal and available, Meth, Cocaine, Heroine, Speed, etc. have no place in our country. And I believe that there should be a small FEDERAL gov't and a stronger State and Local Gov't to best represent the ppl directly...and if you dont pay the officials well then why would they become politicians when they could make FAR more as Lawyer's, I know some of the pay and incentives seem ridiculous but you have to have incentives to get the brightest and best minds available for the job.

[TedWilliams101]

Then how do you suggest the state maintain the service/economy/regulation structure?

When I say making money, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't tax us, etc. I'm saying that they shouldn't be making millions off of us. One of the things I think is completely wrong is how investors and really wealthy business owners can control the interests of politicians through funding, bribes, etc. The Gov't spends WAY more money than is necessary. Taxes, tolls, etc could be reduced if politicians weren't so damned greedy. Just look at how much money was spent on the war in Iraq and the "war" against drugs. The "war" against drugs was bullshit from the start. It was just a campaign strategy for Nixon so he could get in the white house and take more freedoms from the people. It's insane.

[Dipre]

When I say making money, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't tax us, etc. I'm saying that they shouldn't be making millions off of us. One of the things I think is completely wrong is how investors and really wealthy business owners can control the interests of politicians through funding, bribes, etc. The Gov't spends WAY more money than is necessary. Taxes, tolls, etc could be reduced if politicians weren't so damned greedy. Just look at how much money was spent on the war in Iraq and the "war" against drugs. It's insane.

Unfortunately, that is the population's fault.

Give a man power without regulation, and he will abuse it.

[TedWilliams101]

Unfortunately, that is the population's fault.

Give a man power without regulation, and he will abuse it.

Yes, it's human nature. That's why I can't stand how most Americans are completely ignorant to what's going on. As I said before, all they care about is their material things. The Gov't has dumbed people down and given them shiny toys so they can stay under control, and the people have fallen for it.

[The_Destroyah]

When I say making money, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't tax us, etc. I'm saying that they shouldn't be making millions off of us. One of the things I think is completely wrong is how investors and really wealthy business owners can control the interests of politicians through funding, bribes, etc. The Gov't spends WAY more money than is necessary. Taxes, tolls, etc could be reduced if politicians weren't so damned greedy. Just look at how much money was spent on the war in Iraq and the "war" against drugs. It's insane.

i agree as far as that goes, dont forget some of the insane shit that was put in that "bailout" bill and all the ridiculous earmarks that congressmen put in every year.

[Dipre]

Yes, it's human nature. That's why I can't stand how most Americans are completely ignorant to what's going on. As I said before, all they care about is their material things. The Gov't has dumbed people down and given them shiny toys so they can stay under control.

That's the main problem with the current political structure of the US and every nation who mirrors it.

Those in charge have found subtle ways to stupify the population so they can be easily controlled.

Either it being by literally keeping the people stupid by not investing enough or encouraging education (like here), or fooling the population with a false sense of stability , they're making sheep out of us.

[The_Destroyah]

Unfortunately, that is the population's fault.

Give a man power without regulation, and he will abuse it.

and this is very true, the public has lost contact with all of its elected officials, make sure that when you have a problem you contact your officials otherwise there is not anything you can say about it because you are part of the problem...

[Dipre]

and this is very true, the public has lost contact with all of its elected officials, make sure that when you have a problem you contact your officials otherwise there is not anything you can say about it because you are part of the problem...

Again, the population is either too stupid to realize the real problem with the current structure or too busy defending the interests of the political party they sympathize with to realize the system screws with the stupid and screws with the smart and opinionated in an equally simple manner.

[TedWilliams101]

and this is very true, the public has lost contact with all of its elected officials, make sure that when you have a problem you contact your officials otherwise there is not anything you can say about it because you are part of the problem...

Yes, that's one of the reasons why I want a small gov't. I've always thought the Gov't should be run like a volunteer/non-profit organization. Focus on serving the people with their basic needs and less on wars and meddling with our everyday affairs. They have no problem taking away freedom after freedom, but when it comes to raising the minimum wage or fixing the public school system, it takes FOR EVER and very few politicians care. Remember, they have the corporations interest in mind, not the average American. Corporations don't want to be paying employs more, so the Gov't won't make them.

[TedWilliams101]

and this is very true, the public has lost contact with all of its elected officials, make sure that when you have a problem you contact your officials otherwise there is not anything you can say about it because you are part of the problem...

Even that doesn't often work. I'm a poker player and as part of the "Poker Players Alliance", I have called, emailed, and signed petitions to politicians (mainly congressmen) to legalize poker/gambling. Its an extremely strong and large group, but the politicians don't want to let people gamble with their money, so they won't do anything about it, no matter what we do. It's frustrating.

It's like trying to persuade your parents to letting you do something when you're a kid, you don't really have any control and are at the complete mercy of your parents. If they don't want to let you do it, they won't, and nothing you do will change their minds. The difference is that the Gov't isn't supposed to act like our parents/superiors, they are supposed to be our servants.

[The_Destroyah]

Again, the population is either too stupid to realize the real problem with the current structure or too busy defending the interests of the political party they sympathize with to realize the system screws with the stupid and screws with the smart and opinionated in an equally simple manner.

are you callin me stupid?
<_<

[The_Destroyah]

Even that doesn't often work. I'm a poker player and as part of the "Poker Players Alliance", I have called, emailed, and signed petitions to politicians (mainly congressmen) to legalize poker/gambling. Its an extremely strong and large group, but the politicians don't want to let people gamble with their money, so they won't do anything about it, no matter what we do. It's frustrating.

It's like trying to persuade your parents to letting you do something when you're a kid, you don't really have any control and are at the complete mercy of your parents. If they don't want to let you do it, they won't, and nothing you do will change their minds. The difference is that the Gov't isn't supposed to act like our parents/superiors, they are supposed to be our servants.

Yeah the system as a whole is real fucked up, and the 2 party sytem is a real pain in the ass it screws the majority of the country in my opinion...

[Dipre]

Even that doesn't often work. I'm a poker player and as part of the "Poker Players Alliance", I have called, emailed, and signed petitions to politicians (mainly congressmen) to legalize poker/gambling. Its an extremely strong and large group, but the politicians don't want to let people gamble with their money, so they won't do anything about it, no matter what we do. It's frustrating.

It's like trying to persuade your parents to letting you do something when you're a kid, you don't really have any control and are at the complete mercy of your parents. If they don't want to let you do it, they won't, and nothing you do will change their minds. The difference is that the Gov't isn't supposed to act like our parents/superiors, they are supposed to be our servants.

This statement is true, but only in spirit.

The fact is, people have allowed politicians to make decisions for them for so long that now for them to acknowledge any type of initiative by the public, an extremely large group of people must be mobilized as part of said idea or initiative.

It's just the way the system works, and who's to blame but us?

[Dipre]

Yeah the system as a whole is real fucked up, and the 2 party sytem is a real pain in the ass it screws the majority of the country in my opinion...

It doesn't give the population a real choice.

Never has, never will.

[TedWilliams101]

It doesn't give the population a real choice.

Never has, never will.

Nope, it's just a way to control candidates. They create two giant parties where they select the candidate who best fits their plans/ideals and pit them against each other. The 3rd party really doesn't have a chance. Even if a 3rd party was to somehow win, the Gov't still handles the whole thing and basically controls the media, so they could easily rig an election if they wanted (not saying they actually have in the past, just that it's possible).

Anyways, the President is of the least of my concerns. It's only a figure head. The meat and potatoes is congress and their associates.

[Dipre]

Nope, it's just a way to control candidates. They create two giant parties where they select the candidate who best fits their plans/ideals and pit them against each other. The 3rd party really doesn't have a chance. Even if a 3rd party was to somehow win, the Gov't still handles the whole thing and basically controls the media, so they could easily rig an election if they wanted (not saying they actually have in the past, just that it's possible).

Anyways, the President is of the least of my concerns. It's only a figure head. The meat and potatoes is congress and their associates.

Florida balloting says hello.

[The_Destroyah]

Florida balloting says hello.

Ohio balloting waves back...

[TedWilliams101]

Florida balloting says hello.

I'm not convinced about that, there just isn't sufficient evidence. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned to be true, though.

[Dipre]

I'm not convinced about that, there just isn't sufficient evidence. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned to be true, though.

You should be, there's never coincidence when it comes to politics.

[CrespoBlows]

I'm a complete libertarian, but I do realize a Gov't is a good idea. I just think that the Gov't ought to be as small as absolutely possible. The Gov't shouldn't be making money off the people they are supposed to serve.

Libertarianism and government are incompatible.

[CrespoBlows]

That's the main problem with the current political structure of the US and every nation who mirrors it.

Those in charge have found subtle ways to stupify the population so they can be easily controlled.

Either it being by literally keeping the people stupid by not investing enough or encouraging education (like here), or fooling the population with a false sense of stability , they're making sheep out of us.

Wait, you want the government to encourage education investment, so the population would be less easy to control? How does that work?

[CrespoBlows]

Yes, that's one of the reasons why I want a small gov't. I've always thought the Gov't should be run like a volunteer/non-profit organization. Focus on serving the people with their basic needs and less on wars and meddling with our everyday affairs. They have no problem taking away freedom after freedom, but when it comes to raising the minimum wage or fixing the public school system, it takes FOR EVER and very few politicians care. Remember, they have the corporations interest in mind, not the average American. Corporations don't want to be paying employs more, so the Gov't won't make them.

Stop.

You obviously know little of Libertarianism.

[Dipre]

Wait, you want the government to encourage education investment, so the population would be less easy to control? How does that work?

Not your government, honey.

Mine.

[CrespoBlows]

Not your government, honey.

Mine.

The question can be considered universal, no matter the country.

[Dipre]

The question can be considered universal, no matter the country.

Not when my country uses 2.3% of the total budget in education, when the media around Latin America exceeds 6%.

In other words, this country sabotages the lower part of the population's chance at education by not investing enough in education.

You have no idea the kind of things you see in public schools in some of the rural places of this country.

We're talking no seats, a broken board and no ceiling on the school.

[CrespoBlows]

Not when my country uses 2.3&#37; of the total budget in education, when the media around Latin America exceeds 6%.

In other words, this country sabotages the lower part of the population's chance at education by not investing enough in education.

You have no idea the kind of things you see in public schools in some of the rural places of this country.

We're talking no seats, a broken board and no ceiling on the school.

More government investment into education would probably result in more state control, but that's strictly off my experience of Canadian and American public education systems. American public schools routinely airbrush the details of history to reflect an extremely pro-American viewpoint. Many American high school students see their government as a truly benevolent force.

The better chance for more education would be to break the the monopolic grip on the system. Are private schools allowed to compete in the DR?

[Dipre]

More government investment into education would probably result in more state control, but that's strictly off my experience of Canadian and American public education systems. American public schools routinely airbrush the details of history to reflect an extremely pro-American viewpoint. Many American high school students see their government as a truly benevolent force.

The better chance for more education would be to break the the monopolic grip on the system. Are private schools allowed to compete in the DR?

They are, but the price range of the smallest of private schools is too rich for over 80% of the population.

Besides that, the secretary of education is independent to the highest possible extent of the government, so their school programs do not reflect political interests of any kind.

I guess that's the only thing where education here really excels.

[CrespoBlows]

They are, but the price range of the smallest of private schools is too rich for over 80% of the population.

Besides that, the secretary of education is independent to the highest possible extent of the government, so their school programs do not reflect political interests of any kind.

I guess that's the only thing where education here really excels.

Our secretary of education presumably would argue the same, but I would consider the source. I have read that Dominican Roman Catholic schools are some of the finest in the world, and are the preferred schools for many of the middle class. What are the costs for tuition at one of those schools, compared to the costs of funding per pupil at state schools?

The national average in the States is a tick under $10,000, which is well above the cost of many private schools, which do an extraordinary job for half the cost.

[Dipre]

Our secretary of education presumably would argue the same, but I would consider the source. I have read that Dominican Roman Catholic schools are some of the finest in the world, and are the preferred schools for many of the middle class. What are the costs for tuition at one of those schools, compared to the costs of funding per pupil at state schools?
The national average in the States is a tick under $10,000, which is well above the cost of many private schools, which do an extraordinary job for half the cost.

States' FPP borders around 300 dollars per srudent, while the families cover around 100 dollars in expenses.

The average price range of a catholic bilingual school here comes to about 900 dollars per student.

The difference in quality is massive but so is the difference in price.

[CrespoBlows]

http://www.forexyard.com/en/reuters_inner.tpl?action=2009-08-21T215240Z_01_N2179917_RTRIDST_0_OBAMA-DEFICIT-LONGTERM-UPDATE-2

CHANGE

[schillingouttheks]

I read this the other day and thought it was pretty interesting ... and correct. Praying it falls through.

ObamaCare is all about rationing. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358233780260914.html)

[bosoxgirl34]

so i didnt read this whole thread but i am so sick of people bitching about obama not doing this and not doing that and saying he is bullshiting everything he had said about bettering america.....it has been 6 months give the man some time. i dont get why people think he should have fixed everything by now and why they are so scared of everything he says its stupid

[The_Destroyah]

so i didnt read this whole thread but i am so sick of people bitching about obama not doing this and not doing that and saying he is bullshiting everything he had said about bettering america.....it has been 6 months give the man some time. i dont get why people think he should have fixed everything by now and why they are so scared of everything he says its stupid

No im just angry that he has managed to outdo Bush in raising the national deficit so that the next 4 generations of tax payers are going to be fucked over...

[bosoxgirl34]

okay but the thing is he has to be spending money and stuff right now to even start to fix what bush did...he cant just take everything away and say okay its all better cause it wont be

[The_Destroyah]

spending does not equal fixing, we are trying to fix problems caused by artificial economic growth with artificial economic growth, it will help temporarily but in the longrun it will hurt...and I dont feel that now is the appropriate time for a healthcare bill like the one that is being passed now.

[bosoxgirl34]

yeah but there is alot of stuff going on that we dont know about and if there was an easy solution to our problems someone would have done it by now....every president spends more than the one before and tries to outdo the one before as well. I do honestly think though that h is trying to fix things. Also healthcare is sucking america dry i think a healthcare bill will help cause most of our money goes to medical exspenses

[Dipre]

No im just angry that he has managed to outdo Bush in raising the national deficit so that the next 4 generations of tax payers are going to be fucked over...

Failthought.

[YAZMAN]

okay but the thing is he has to be spending money and stuff right now to even start to fix what bush did...he cant just take everything away and say okay its all better cause it wont be

Can you give an example of how someone in debt successfully spent their way out of that condition by adding more debt?

Buying a gun on credit for a self-inflicted gunshot wound is not an example.

[Dipre]

The logical statement to defend her point would be "The bullshit storm GW turned this economy into didn't go away when Obama took reign".

[bosoxgirl34]

Basically what im saying is this isnt going to go away right away it might not eveb go away at all but atleast he is trying........and ever hear the saying youve got to spend money to make money......you dont just open a business and put no money into it and expect to make money in return

[ORS]

Basically what im saying is this isnt going to go away right away it might not eveb go away at all but atleast he is trying........and ever hear the saying youve got to spend money to make money......you dont just open a business and put no money into it and expect to make money in return
What does the US government spend money on that produces returns?

[rhet]

Also healthcare is sucking america dry i think a healthcare bill will help cause most of our money goes to medical exspenses

Does his healthcare bill reduce our medical expenses?
How so?

[The_Destroyah]

Basically what im saying is this isnt going to go away right away it might not eveb go away at all but atleast he is trying........and ever hear the saying youve got to spend money to make money......you dont just open a business and put no money into it and expect to make money in return

The US gov't is not a business, a business sells a product or service, the gov't produces nothing therefor the "spend money to make money" philosophy doesnt apply, and I realize he is trying but i dont like the way he is trying, its ineffective and if anything detrimental IMO.

[Dipre]

What does the US government spend money on that produces returns?

Nothing, that is impossible.

That's why they use tax as a recollection system.

Then again, you already knew that, but apparently she didn't.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

Can you give an example of how someone in debt successfully spent their way out of that condition by adding more debt?

Buying a gun on credit for a self-inflicted gunshot wound is not an example.

What if i borrow money from mom to buy a suit to go to a job interview, get a job make money pay off debt. does that work.

Obviously we have about 4 presidential candidates on this board. Since you all are so smart.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

The US gov't is not a business, a business sells a product or service, the gov't produces nothing therefor the "spend money to make money" philosophy doesnt apply, and I realize he is trying but i dont like the way he is trying, its ineffective and if anything detrimental IMO.

Does the government make money off of prescriptions drugs?

[Dipre]

What if i borrow money from mom to buy a suit to go to a job interview, get a job make money pay off debt. does that work.

Obviously we have about 4 presidential candidates on this board. Since you all are so smart.

Calm down champ, no one insulted your girl.

No need for the macho attitude.


Does the government make money off of prescriptions drugs?

Explain yourself.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

Calm down champ, no one insulted your girl.

No need for the macho attitude.



Explain yourself.

Are you psychic? I dont have any attitude.Does that not make any sense? How do people normally pay off debt? If I own a restaurant and its in debt, what is my way out of that debt? Should i continute my failing ways? Or figure out a better way to do things that may cost me money short term, but have a +EV long term.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

What does the US government spend money on that produces returns?

This is where my prescription drug comment was going. Do they make money off drugs?

[Dipre]

This is where my prescription drug comment was going. Do they make money off drugs?

The government does not make drugs, pharmaceutical companies make drugs, and pay taxes to the state, so we come back to the fact that tax recollection is the basic way for the state to make money.

[Dipre]

Are you psychic? I dont have any attitude.Does that not make any sense? How do people normally pay off debt? If I own a restaurant and its in debt, what is my way out of that debt? Should i continute my failing ways? Or figure out a better way to do things that may cost me money short term, but have a +EV long term.

Yes, i have two psychic balls, champ.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

Yes, i have two psychic balls, champ.

Cool, well rub em real hard and see if a genie comes out to tell you the future.

[Dipre]

Cool, well rub em real hard and see if a genie comes out to tell you the future.

I did, the genie came out, and i asked him what did he think of the state making money like it was a business, and he asked who the fuck thinks such a stupid thing is possible.

The genie is awesome.

[pedroia_the_destroyah53]

I did, the genie came out, and i asked him what did he think of the state making money like it was a business, and he asked who the fuck thinks such a stupid thing is possible.

The genie is awesome.

And I had an attitude.

I don't even understand where this is going. I dont have no beef with you so I'll just quit while you and the genie are ahead.

[The_Destroyah]

lol I like where this conversation has gone.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Lol this went from Obama to Testicular Genies. I love this place.

[Dipre]

And I had an attitude.

I don't even understand where this is going. I dont have no beef with you so I'll just quit while you and the genie are ahead.

The genie card never fails.

[YAZMAN]

What if i borrow money from mom to buy a suit to go to a job interview, get a job make money pay off debt. does that work.

Presuming you bought a suit because you don't have one, no, that does not work. Even in a good economy your chances of landing a job in a business suit environment when you have so little experience in that field are almost nil. That's a bad proposition, and while you will have a nice suit you'll also have more debt.

If it's not a business suit environment, you'd be far better served interviewing in clean conservative clothing that is a match for the work environment. I have over 100 part-time and seasonal employees who work under me, some of whom hold positions that require various certifications. None of those are suit jobs. If someone showed up for an interview in a suit, the first question I'd ask them is "why did you wear a suit today". "To impress" would be the only viable answer, although it still demonstrates a lack of understanding about the work environment and indicates a degree of desperation that employers flee from during the hiring process.

[jacksonianmarch]

Obama sucks. Discuss.

[The_Destroyah]

Obama sucks. Discuss.

What do you think about the Universal Healthcare Bill Jacko? I haven't talked to anyone in the medical field what they think about it yet.

[RedSoxRooter]

I pay over 35% of my income to Income and Property taxes ALONE (forget all the other taxes) and I have no problem paying a little more for UHC that covers everyone. Actually, it would be nice to see at least some of my tax contributions going to something I can physically see...

I can see why people would not want to be taxed higher or go into debt further, but everyone should embrace the idea of UHC for all Americans. That is why we should make every attempt to get it done ASAP. The longer the dems wait for the republicans to jump on board, the more lies will be spread about it, so I say fuck the Republicans and special interest groups and insurance companies and pharmaceuticals and just push her through without any Republican support.

Up next, Gun Control.

Next term, marijuana. :thumbsup:

[rhet]

Everyone's already covered.
Do you want to double cover them?

[Dipre]

Everyone's already covered.
Do you want to double cover them?

You need to re-think that statement.

[rhet]

You need to re-think that statement.

Why?

[The_Destroyah]

I pay over 35% of my income to Income and Property taxes ALONE (forget all the other taxes) and I have no problem paying a little more for UHC that covers everyone. Actually, it would be nice to see at least some of my tax contributions going to something I can physically see...

I can see why people would not want to be taxed higher or go into debt further, but everyone should embrace the idea of UHC for all Americans. That is why we should make every attempt to get it done ASAP. The longer the dems wait for the republicans to jump on board, the more lies will be spread about it, so I say fuck the Republicans and special interest groups and insurance companies and pharmaceuticals and just push her through without any Republican support.

Up next, Gun Control.

Next term, marijuana. :thumbsup:

what specifically about gun control? guns are controlled enough and gun control doesnt keep guns away from criminals, it keeps them out of the hands of good people. Just remember "The best defense against tyranny is a well armed populace." - Benjamin Franklin.

[Dipre]

Why?

Technically =/= literally.

Think about it.

[rhet]

Technically =/= literally.

Think about it.

OK, so we all know the emergency room is an option of last resort to anyone who steps foot into this country. So that's what I was referring to.

But if we take the so-called 47 million "uninsured" and subtract those who choose to be uninsured, those who are eligible for Medicaid or Medicare but haven't enrolled, those who are short term uninsured because of job change, and those who are not US citizens, we find the real number of involuntarily long term uninsured Americans is under 10 million. In my opinion, we shouldn't turn a whole system that is serving 270 million Americans well over to the state to correct this problem. Surely there are ideas for more targeted approaches.

[ORS]

I pay over 35% of my income to Income and Property taxes ALONE (forget all the other taxes) and I have no problem paying a little more for UHC that covers everyone. Actually, it would be nice to see at least some of my tax contributions going to something I can physically see...

I can see why people would not want to be taxed higher or go into debt further, but everyone should embrace the idea of UHC for all Americans. That is why we should make every attempt to get it done ASAP. The longer the dems wait for the republicans to jump on board, the more lies will be spread about it, so I say fuck the Republicans and special interest groups and insurance companies and pharmaceuticals and just push her through without any Republican support.

Up next, Gun Control.

Next term, marijuana. :thumbsup:
You like the idea of rationing care? Letting the government decide if you should get a procedure based on their table of life expectancy?

Keep this in mind, provided you don't die a sudden death, a rationed care system will shorten your life so that a current non-contributor gets cared for. Maybe you are fine with that, but I'm not.

Gun control will assure only one thing. It will assure armed criminals that the law abiding citizens they attack won't be armed as well.

[Dipre]

OK, so we all know the emergency room is an option of last resort to anyone who steps foot into this country. So that's what I was referring to.

But if we take the so-called 47 million "uninsured" and subtract those who choose to be uninsured, those who are eligible for Medicaid or Medicare but haven't enrolled, those who are short term uninsured because of job change, and those who are not US citizens, we find the real number of involuntarily long term uninsured Americans is under 10 million. In my opinion, we shouldn't turn a whole system that is serving 270 million Americans well over to the state to correct this problem. Surely there are ideas for more targeted approaches.

Theoretically,yes.

Realistically, probably not.

[The_Destroyah]

Theoretically,yes.

Realistically, probably not.

Why not? Why cant we focus on a system to help those who are uninsured that doesnt affect the rest of the population? And why is it the gov'ts job to provide healthcare to citizens in the first place?

[jacksonianmarch]

I have bided my time trying to figure out which plan they are gonna try to push. Now, there is a clearer picture and its a picture of shit. A big pile of dogshit.

Point #1: We dont know everything in medicine. So how can one person come up with a table that accurately predicts how long you are going to live? I've seen young people die of relatively benign diseases. I have seen old people continue to live good lives after devastating illnesses. Any prediction tool is doomed to fail. And they wont have medical people making those decisions. It will be the suits.

Point #2: This type of system will stifle research. How can you enroll patients if nobody is willing to pay for the procedures? It will also stifle finished research since the new, expensive technology wont have data on it to prove that it adds an adjusted life year.

Point #3: It wont fly in this country. We want everything for free and for everyone to go the extra mile. Nobody accepts the fact that we are mortals and that we will eventually die. That is the problem in America and why this plan will be fought tooth and nail

Point #4: It doesnt address any of the real issues. If you want doctors to treat patients with fiscal responsibility in mind, you cannot then have them financially liable when said procedures are passed up. I am sorry, I dont have time at work to fight with an insurance agent over why grandma needs a stent or else she's gonna be dead. I just dont have the time to do it.

Point #5: Obama is trying to bundle payments to the hospitals. Meaning less and less payment to the hospital rendering services. And that also means that those with more clout in the hospital will get more money. NOT where the money needs to go. You need your money on the front lines to PREVENT things from getting out of hand. This will pull money from primary care and the emergency department.

Point #5: This does nothing to address primary care. Nothing. If you want to save money, make primary care access easier, ie, pay primary care physicians more money so more people want to do it in this country. The residents in the IM and family medicine departments around this country are filled with doctors who I wouldnt send my dog to. If you put shit in, you will get shit back. Residents follow the money, and I bet there are plenty of people who would love to do primary care, just the fiscal burden placed on them makes it impossible. When you come out of residency with a 300K loan to your name, then buy a 300K house, you need to make more than 90-110K, especially after sacrificing 7 of the best yrs of your life in postgraduate education and training.

Point #6: Make deductibles for emergency visits higher to keep the people who dont need to go to the ED away. You wouldnt believe the amount of people I see on a daily basis who dont need to be in the ED. Back pain for 20 years! One woman told me she needed to wait for a day when her child was away at a sleepover to come in for her fatigue over the last 3 months. And you know what, you and I paid her bill. She didnt pay one red cent.

Point #7: Force an increase in enrollment across the country in medical schools and help subsidize loans into grants for future doctors. The more doctors you have, the better, and I am sure there are plenty of great minds who have found the medical school cost prohibitive and so they went into something else.


Those are my thoughts. Also, in the current economic state, I have no idea how he is gonna do this without raising taxes significantly. This is gonna have a massive up front cost. And in the age of the stimulus and the recession, I have no idea how we are gonna pay this without a massive tax hike including those he told he wouldnt tax (middle class says hi). I think he's gonna take a system that is gasping for breath and hold a pillow over its head. Dark times ahead for both patients and doctors and I see our breakthroughs becoming more and more scarce. This isnt the way to do it.

[VA Sox Fan]

You like the idea of rationing care? Letting the government decide if you should get a procedure based on their table of life expectancy?

Keep this in mind, provided you don't die a sudden death, a rationed care system will shorten your life so that a current non-contributor gets cared for. Maybe you are fine with that, but I'm not.

Gun control will assure only one thing. It will assure armed criminals that the law abiding citizens they attack won't be armed as well.


Agree 100%.

And RedSoxRooter, a 2nd term?? Don't get your hopes up. :)

[The_Destroyah]

I have bided my time trying to figure out which plan they are gonna try to push. Now, there is a clearer picture and its a picture of shit. A big pile of dogshit.

Point #1: We dont know everything in medicine. So how can one person come up with a table that accurately predicts how long you are going to live? I've seen young people die of relatively benign diseases. I have seen old people continue to live good lives after devastating illnesses. Any prediction tool is doomed to fail. And they wont have medical people making those decisions. It will be the suits.

Point #2: This type of system will stifle research. How can you enroll patients if nobody is willing to pay for the procedures? It will also stifle finished research since the new, expensive technology wont have data on it to prove that it adds an adjusted life year.

Point #3: It wont fly in this country. We want everything for free and for everyone to go the extra mile. Nobody accepts the fact that we are mortals and that we will eventually die. That is the problem in America and why this plan will be fought tooth and nail

Point #4: It doesnt address any of the real issues. If you want doctors to treat patients with fiscal responsibility in mind, you cannot then have them financially liable when said procedures are passed up. I am sorry, I dont have time at work to fight with an insurance agent over why grandma needs a stent or else she's gonna be dead. I just dont have the time to do it.

Point #5: Obama is trying to bundle payments to the hospitals. Meaning less and less payment to the hospital rendering services. And that also means that those with more clout in the hospital will get more money. NOT where the money needs to go. You need your money on the front lines to PREVENT things from getting out of hand. This will pull money from primary care and the emergency department.

Point #5: This does nothing to address primary care. Nothing. If you want to save money, make primary care access easier, ie, pay primary care physicians more money so more people want to do it in this country. The residents in the IM and family medicine departments around this country are filled with doctors who I wouldnt send my dog to. If you put shit in, you will get shit back. Residents follow the money, and I bet there are plenty of people who would love to do primary care, just the fiscal burden placed on them makes it impossible. When you come out of residency with a 300K loan to your name, then buy a 300K house, you need to make more than 90-110K, especially after sacrificing 7 of the best yrs of your life in postgraduate education and training.

Point #6: Make deductibles for emergency visits higher to keep the people who dont need to go to the ED away. You wouldnt believe the amount of people I see on a daily basis who dont need to be in the ED. Back pain for 20 years! One woman told me she needed to wait for a day when her child was away at a sleepover to come in for her fatigue over the last 3 months. And you know what, you and I paid her bill. She didnt pay one red cent.

Point #7: Force an increase in enrollment across the country in medical schools and help subsidize loans into grants for future doctors. The more doctors you have, the better, and I am sure there are plenty of great minds who have found the medical school cost prohibitive and so they went into something else.


Those are my thoughts. Also, in the current economic state, I have no idea how he is gonna do this without raising taxes significantly. This is gonna have a massive up front cost. And in the age of the stimulus and the recession, I have no idea how we are gonna pay this without a massive tax hike including those he told he wouldnt tax (middle class says hi). I think he's gonna take a system that is gasping for breath and hold a pillow over its head. Dark times ahead for both patients and doctors and I see our breakthroughs becoming more and more scarce. This isnt the way to do it.

these are all pretty much more detailed and better informed versions of what I've thought plus a few I hadn't thought of, I just figured you would have a good perspective on this issue.

[Dipre]

Why not? Why cant we focus on a system to help those who are uninsured that doesnt affect the rest of the population? And why is it the gov'ts job to provide healthcare to citizens in the first place?

Exactly the point.

No way they can instill a system that both helps the uninsured but doesn't screw over the rest of the population, either tax-wise or otherwise.

About the second point, the only reason a government exists is to provide people with a system that will make their lives as complete as possible, to put it in layman's terms, thus, healthcare is a part of the governments' obligations.

[The_Destroyah]

Exactly the point.

No way they can instill a system that both helps the uninsured but doesn't screw over the rest of the population, either tax-wise or otherwise.

About the second point, the only reason a government exists is to provide people with a system that will make their lives as complete as possible, to put it in layman's terms, thus, healthcare is a part of the governments' obligations.

How is the federal government obliged to provide healthcare? where does it state that in the constitution or bill of rights? I dont see why the government should provide healthcare when people can provide it for themselves, if we give everyone healthcare why not feed them all, and provide them with cars, and clothe them? all of these things are a necessity with most people here in the US, what gives healthcare precedent?

[Dipre]

How is the federal government obliged to provide healthcare? where does it state that in the constitution or bill of rights? I dont see why the government should provide healthcare when people can provide it for themselves, if we give everyone healthcare why not feed them all, and provide them with cars, and clothe them? all of these things are a necessity with most people here in the US, what gives healthcare precedent?

You got it wrong.

Not healthcare in itself, but the mainframe for the service to be provided.

[rhet]

Theoretically,yes.

Realistically, probably not.

Realistically, yes. Even extending Medicaid to those 10 million would be cheaper than usurping the whole healthcare industry.

[Dipre]

Realistically, yes. Even extending Medicaid to those 10 million would be cheaper than usurping the whole healthcare industry.

But then you're just updating the current system, and that is not what they intend to do.

That's why i said not realistically.

[The_Destroyah]

You got it wrong.

Not healthcare in itself, but the mainframe for the service to be provided.

so basically making insurance available to those who cannot currently get it? I just don feel that those that do have healthcare should have to pay for others who dont work as hard to get healthcare.

[Dipre]

so basically making insurance available to those who cannot currently get it? I just don feel that those that do have healthcare should have to pay for others who dont work as hard to get healthcare.

This is true, however, thus the conundrum.

[rhet]

But then you're just updating the current system, and that is not what they intend to do.

That's why i said not realistically.

The current system works fairly well for those who buy reasonable coverage. It also works very well for the poor who utilize it. Of course, there are problems, as jacksonianmarch has stated. Economical coverage for the tweeners, paucity of doctors, incentives for research, drug costs and malpractice reform all need to be addressed. But they should be addressed individually, not as a government takeover.

[Dipre]

The current system works fairly well for those who buy reasonable coverage. It also works very well for the poor who utilize it. There are problems, as jacksonianmarch has stated. Economical coverage for the tweeners, paucity of doctors, incentives for research, drug costs and malpractice reform all need to be addressed. But they should be addressed individually, not as a government takeover.

IMO this is what the reform SHOULD constitute.

But they want to make a hostile takeover.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theory guy, but there's something weird with the whole issue.

[rhet]

IMO this is what the reform SHOULD constitute.

But they want to make a hostile takeover.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theory guy, but there's something weird with the whole issue.

No need for a conspiracy. State run healthcare has been the goal of a certain political party in this country for the last 70 years.

[Dipre]

No need for a conspiracy. State run healthcare has been the goal of a certain political party in this country for the last 70 years.

Lulz.

Wouldn't that count as a sort of conspiracy?

[YAZMAN]

Lulz.

Wouldn't that count as a sort of conspiracy?

No, it's not a conspiracy, it's just another push towards socialism.

JFK must be rolling in his grave with what these clowns are doing.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." BAWHAWHAW, yeah, if you work you can pay more taxes. If you don't, it's evidently your Constitutional right to have what others earn.

[Dipre]

No, it's not a conspiracy, it's just another push towards socialism.

JFK must be rolling in his grave with what these clowns are doing.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." BAWHAWHAW, yeah, if you work you can pay more taxes. If you don't, it's evidently your Constitutional right to have what others earn.

No offense, but that's stupid.

Socialism would take tens of years to apply in the US.

You need to go ahead and look up what socialism actually is, and how it's impossible to convert a purely capitalist country into socialism.

For actual socialism to be applied, your economic regime would have to be crushed.

[ORS]

About the second point, the only reason a government exists is to provide people with a system that will make their lives as complete as possible, to put it in layman's terms, thus, healthcare is a part of the governments' obligations.
No, government exists as agreement among people to give up some of their freedom (natural, anarchy type freedom) for stability. How much of that freedom they give up is decided by the people who establish the governing system (or, in some cases, they have no say and allow themselves to be ruled by others). There is no set purpose for government. It's variable. The people decide what they want the role/responsibility of government to be. To me, this Jerry McGuire, "You complete me", shit is nonsense. That's not the country I was raised in, and I damn sure hope it doesn't become that.

[jacksonianmarch]

No offense, but that's stupid.

Socialism would take tens of years to apply in the US.

You need to go ahead and look up what socialism actually is, and how it's impossible to convert a purely capitalist country into socialism.

For actual socialism to be applied, your economic regime would have to be crushed.

we'll never get to pure socialism. But, having an unequal tax system pushes toward it, AND when you make it more unequal, then you continue the same push.

[Dipre]

No, government exists as agreement among people to give up some of their freedom (natural, anarchy type freedom) for stability. How much of that freedom they give up is decided by the people who establish the governing system (or, in some cases, they have no say and allow themselves to be ruled by others). There is no set purpose for government. It's variable. The people decide what they want the role/responsibility of government to be. To me, this Jerry McGuire, "You complete me", shit is nonsense. That's not the country I was raised in, and I damn sure hope it doesn't become that.

You said yourself the role is determined by those who govern it, and remember that Governments are not meant to DELIVER SERVICES, but to create the structure for services to exist, that is universal among the so-called democratic states.

If your government wants to shit itself by staging a hostile takeover of the healthcare system, good for them, but don't mistake that for the basic premises of what a State's supposed to do, even if the constitution doesn't specify it.

[Dipre]

we'll never get to pure socialism. But, having an unequal tax system pushes toward it, AND when you make it more unequal, then you continue the same push.

You can't even push as long as the unequal nature of capitalism exists.

No matter how hard they push, the social differences can not disappear, therefore not even a "moderate socialism" can take place.

[rhet]

You can't even push as long as the unequal nature of capitalism exists.

No matter how hard they push, the social differences can not disappear, therefore not even a "moderate socialism" can take place.

Taking over complete industries will bring us to socialism. Banks, autos and now healthcare make up 30% of our GDP.

[ORS]

You said yourself the role is determined by those who govern it, and remember that Governments are not meant to DELIVER SERVICES, but to create the structure for services to exist, that is universal among the so-called democratic states.

If your government wants to shit itself by staging a hostile takeover of the healthcare system, good for them, but don't mistake that for the basic premises of what a State's supposed to do, even if the constitution doesn't specify it.
You are going down the same incorrect track. Government is "meant" to do what the creators of the system want. In socialism, your point about not delivering services is 100% wrong. That is exactly what socialism was created for. You can't rant about how people are getting socialism wrong on the one hand while ignoring it in relation to this discussion.

While you are correct that the proposed system isn't true socialism, it is a single payer system, with the single payer establishing the who, what, when, where, why, and how much of payments, and, it's the government. So, while it technically won't be true socialism, it's as close as you can get without having the government provide the services. If it walks like a duck, well...

[Dipre]

You are going down the same incorrect track. Government is "meant" to do what the creators of the system want. In socialism, your point about not delivering services is 100% wrong. That is exactly what socialism was created for. You can't rant about how people are getting socialism wrong on the one hand while ignoring it in relation to this discussion.

While you are correct that the proposed system isn't true socialism, it is a single payer system, with the single payer establishing the who, what, when, where, why, and how much of payments, and, it's the government. So, while it technically won't be true socialism, it's as close as you can get without having the government provide the services. If it walks like a duck, well...

I don't think i ever said in socialism a government will not deliver services, since socialism, is, in fact, a system that takes away almost all individual liberties and provides human beings with everything from jobs to basic services.

Allow me to rephrase, in your capitalist system, the government creates the infrastructure for things, but creates an independent system for it to be run on.

That's what i meant.

[RedSoxRooter]

And RedSoxRooter, a 2nd term?? Don't get your hopes up. :)

Oh hellz yeah. I even registered to vote this year for the first time since Clinton's first presidency! I'm voting Dem across the board here in GA next year - these fucking rednecks can suck my dick.

And I love the fact Obama's gone on record as saying he'd be a one term president it thats what it takes. Damn right! The man's got balls.

I swear, if this idiot country elects Jeb, I'll move to Canada.

[RedSoxRooter]

... and Ted Kennedy dies. Too bad he didn't live to see it, but it will happen.

[The_Destroyah]

Oh hellz yeah. I even registered to vote this year for the first time since Clinton's first presidency! I'm voting Dem across the board here in GA next year - these fucking rednecks can suck my dick.

And I love the fact Obama's gone on record as saying he'd be a one term president it thats what it takes. Damn right! The man's got balls.

I swear, if this idiot country elects Jeb, I'll move to Canada.

dont worry, the republicans
A. know that no one named Bush is going to be elected for the next 10 years because of peoples view of him.
B. they are looking at Palin, Gendel, Romney, maybe Hukabee, maybe Ron Paul.

and I honestly think Obama has spent too much to get re-elected but he is charismatic and well liked by alot of people who dont know anything about politics (no offense to the Obama supporters that are educated) so who knows.

[RedSoxRooter]

what specifically about gun control? guns are controlled enough and gun control doesnt keep guns away from criminals, it keeps them out of the hands of good people. Just remember "The best defense against tyranny is a well armed populace." - Benjamin Franklin.

I'd do nothing to stop the manufacturing of guns but stop the manufacturing of any sort of ammunition and at the same time point out that gun users are pussies who can't actually harm anyone without 10 ft of space and a gun - because they are scared little pussies. Robbers and victoms alike.

[The_Destroyah]

I'd do nothing to stop the manufacturing of guns but stop the manufacturing of any sort of ammunition and at the same time point out that gun users are pussies who can't actually harm anyone without 10 ft of space and a gun - because they are scared little pussies. Robbers and victoms alike.

you know that you can make ammunition rather easily right? and if you took away all guns and ammunition only criminals would have them...they might be pussies but they will kill and rob so think what you want, and does that make Officers of the law and those in the armed forces pussies? and even if guns didnt exist people would just stab each other and you would solve nothing. People are violent if you take away all weapons there will be a drastic increase in strangling and homicide via blunt force trauma. Guns=/=crime.

[Dipre]

I'd do nothing to stop the manufacturing of guns but stop the manufacturing of any sort of ammunition and at the same time point out that gun users are pussies who can't actually harm anyone without 10 ft of space and a gun - because they are scared little pussies. Robbers and victoms alike.

I'm sorry, man. but gun control is a pipe dream.

[ORS]

I'd do nothing to stop the manufacturing of guns but stop the manufacturing of any sort of ammunition and at the same time point out that gun users are pussies who can't actually harm anyone without 10 ft of space and a gun - because they are scared little pussies. Robbers and victoms alike.
So you'd stand up to an armed attacker if you were unarmed, right? No, you'd do what the attacker wanted. Living in an environment where criminals arm themselves with guns and choosing not to arm yourself in kind for protection is accepting the role of victim. Allowing yourself to be the victim when you have a choice to do otherwise is as pussified as it gets.

[yeszir]

I'm going to close this thread and ban people the second insults start to fly. Threads about politics suck.

[Dipre]

I'm going to close this thread and ban people the second insults start to fly. Threads about politics suck.

This, however, has been a pretty decent thread.

[rhet]

For those who prefer banning guns and government takeover of industries, I suggest a read of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[schillingouttheks]

I'm going to close this thread and ban people the second insults start to fly. Threads about politics suck.

I've been closely monitoring. No one's getting out of hand. It's probably the most civilized political thread we have, which is odd given the title of it, lol.

[schillingouttheks]

I'd do nothing to stop the manufacturing of guns but stop the manufacturing of any sort of ammunition and at the same time point out that gun users are pussies who can't actually harm anyone without 10 ft of space and a gun - because they are scared little pussies. Robbers and victoms alike.

Okay, because I'm just going to sit in my room and lock the door and wait for the police to get there if some crazed asshole comes into my home at night with a knife or gun.

I'm staking out in my house and shooting the motherfucker the first chance I get. That's what that idiot deserves for breaking into my home AND having the audacity to carry a weapon with him. Nothing like a little taste of his own medicine.


you know that you can make ammunition rather easily right? and if you took away all guns and ammunition only criminals would have them...they might be pussies but they will kill and rob so think what you want, and does that make Officers of the law and those in the armed forces pussies? and even if guns didnt exist people would just stab each other and you would solve nothing. People are violent if you take away all weapons there will be a drastic increase in strangling and homicide via blunt force trauma. Guns=/=crime.

One of my favorite quotes is "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

[rhet]

Okay, because I'm just going to sit in my room and lock the door and wait for the police to get there if some crazed asshole comes into my home at night with a knife or gun.

I'm staking out in my house and shooting the motherfucker the first chance I get. That's what that idiot deserves for breaking into my home AND having the audacity to carry a weapon with him. Nothing like a little taste of his own medicine.



One of my favorite quotes is "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Nice to know logic is present on our college campuses.
Go Eagles.

[CrespoBlows]

so i didnt read this whole thread but i am so sick of people bitching about obama not doing this and not doing that and saying he is bullshiting everything he had said about bettering america.....it has been 6 months give the man some time. i dont get why people think he should have fixed everything by now and why they are so scared of everything he says its stupid

I think he's been given enough time to display what he has in store for the United States for the next four years. He was elected as the anti-war candidate who promised to end our involvement in Iraq. What does he do instead? He leaves troops in Iraq, while doubling the committment to a rapidly falling into chaos country whose leader resembles Diem, rather than Churchill.

He's bailed out the auto industry, as well as burdened more poor people with more debt with that horrifically stupid cash-for-clunkers program, and now he's trying to convince the public that we don't have socialized medicine already. The government makes up 50&#37; of healthcare spending with Medicare, Medicaid, and VA. Check the track records on those wonderful programs.

Oh, don't forget the failed Stimulus package. Stimulus II, $9trillion deficit. $50 trillion plus in entitlements. Hahaha, we are so fucked. I hope that enough people will be able to weather the economic storm that's on the horizon.

[The_Destroyah]

why doesnt the Fed go ahead and print 50 trillion dollars? lol
they are close to doing it anyways.

[CrespoBlows]

Oh hellz yeah. I even registered to vote this year for the first time since Clinton's first presidency! I'm voting Dem across the board here in GA next year - these fucking rednecks can suck my dick.

And I love the fact Obama's gone on record as saying he'd be a one term president it thats what it takes. Damn right! The man's got balls.

I swear, if this idiot country elects Jeb, I'll move to Canada.

If Obama is a one term president, which I think he probably will be, it will be because the country has decisively repudiated his platform, and will have embraced a considerably more fiscally conservative candidate.

[rhet]

If Obama is a one term president, which I think he probably will be, it will be because the country has decisively repudiated his platform, and will have embraced a considerably more fiscally conservative candidate.

60% of voters follow the lead of liberal media, Hollywood and the late night comics. Obama will surely win a second term as long as they remain in his corner.

[CrespoBlows]

60% of voters follow the lead of liberal media, Hollywood and the late night comics. Obama will surely win a second term as long as they remain in his corner.

Americans may not be experts on political science, but they are far from the sheep the elite makes them out to be. When Americans are fed up with nonsense, the pendulum swings back the other way. Sure, there isn't a significant difference between the two parties, but Americans will vote for the Republican party in record numbers if they can offer a platform that offers them "Change!" Will the Republicans turn their rhetoric into reality? Recent history suggests they won't, but that doesn't stop Americans from feeling better about the supposed change that has occured.

[CrespoBlows]

Basically what im saying is this isnt going to go away right away it might not eveb go away at all but atleast he is trying........and ever hear the saying youve got to spend money to make money......you dont just open a business and put no money into it and expect to make money in return

Yeah, but you have to have money to spend money. You don't rev up the printer to dispense funds so you can buy new toys for your misadventures overseas. Oh, wait that's called counterfeiting.

[jacksonianmarch]

Americans may not be experts on political science, but they are far from the sheep the elite makes them out to be. When Americans are fed up with nonsense, the pendulum swings back the other way. Sure, there isn't a significant difference between the two parties, but Americans will vote for the Republican party in record numbers if they can offer a platform that offers them "Change!" Will the Republicans turn their rhetoric into reality? Recent history suggests they won't, but that doesn't stop Americans from feeling better about the supposed change that has occured.

People are sick of seeing multiple failures on multiple fronts. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The economy falling into despair. The housing market crashing. The job market crashing. The health system being broken. Obama's (and Bush's to that matter) plans have all been short sighted and will not fix the problems at hand. Once America sees this, they will scream for change again, and I have a feeling that scream for change comes when Obama needs to pay the piper and raise taxes on EVERYONE. Thats coming, cause you cannot start all these stimulus plans AND put significantly more money into a healthcare system that initially will cost a TON more and not expect to have to pay the piper. Thats coming. Once the middle class and possibly the working poor need to kick in another 1-2% of their paychecks into the pot, there will be chaos.

[CrespoBlows]

People are sick of seeing multiple failures on multiple fronts. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The economy falling into despair. The housing market crashing. The job market crashing. The health system being broken. Obama's (and Bush's to that matter) plans have all been short sighted and will not fix the problems at hand. Once America sees this, they will scream for change again, and I have a feeling that scream for change comes when Obama needs to pay the piper and raise taxes on EVERYONE. Thats coming, cause you cannot start all these stimulus plans AND put significantly more money into a healthcare system that initially will cost a TON more and not expect to have to pay the piper. Thats coming. Once the middle class and possibly the working poor need to kick in another 1-2% of their paychecks into the pot, there will be chaos.

1-2%? It would have to substantially more than that, and I don't think Obama will have the mandate to get a bill like that through both houses of Congress. The Blue Dogs would face a heavy backlash, which could compromise their seats on the hill. Chances are, if health care reform goes through, it will be courtesy of the Federal Reserve.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Federal Reserve has already handed out trillions of dollars in bailout money. If Obama is true to his word and wishes to reduce or maintain the national debt, he will raise taxes. Cause as of right now, the national debt is due to grow by 2 trillion over his 4 yr term, the largest leap in any 4 yr span ever.

[CrespoBlows]

The Federal Reserve has already handed out trillions of dollars in bailout money. If Obama is true to his word and wishes to reduce or maintain the national debt, he will raise taxes.

That would be a shocking reversal of policy from both the Federal Reserve and Barack Obama. The rebound we are having right now isn't sustainable, and when there is another dive, and there will be another one, Stimulus II will be launched. I wouldn't be surprised if it is led by a Republican controlled Congress, although they may not have the opportunity. There isn't the political will to stop inflating, or spending. A raise in taxes would send this economy into a major depression. The Federal Reserve won't even raise interest rates, or cut the money supply.

Do you seriously expect Obama to raise taxes? It would be an amazing display of a shining star going into supernova. The Republicans would have a major revolution akin to the False Reagan Revolution of 1980. I have been stunned about some of the policies passed by the administration, but they have their Keynesian cover to help them out there, but not even Keynes advocated raising taxes during a recession. It would be the most mind-boggling decision in the history of this country.


Cause as of right now, the national debt is due to grow by 2 trillion over his 4 yr term, the largest leap in any 4 yr span ever.

That's incredibly optimistic.

[jacksonianmarch]

optimistic as in you think the debt will grow by more than 2 trillion, or am I being pessimistic and you think it wont grow by 2 trillion

[CrespoBlows]

optimistic as in you think the debt will grow by more than 2 trillion, or am I being pessimistic and you think it wont grow by 2 trillion

The deficit will explode past $2 trillion, especially if the war drums beat louder with Iran, and if we see any deflationary movements in the economy.

[jacksonianmarch]

And I do expect Obama to raise taxes. He's already raising taxes on the higher tax brackets by letting the Bush tax cuts "expire". I find that hilarious. I am not raising taxes, I am just letting tax cuts expire. What a political BS move. Now, he is talking about raising taxes on families who make over 250K when his policy line initially was anyone over 500K. He's a democrat snake, the uber democrat. Possibly the most liberal liberal to ever take office and he has the power of the senate and congress on his side. Hence, I wouldnt trust him at all. Also, the federal reserve can only bail us out for so long, since by pulling cash out of it, you effectively decrease the value of the american dollar. Eventually, the piper will need to be paid.

What I find just irresponsible is the timing of all these bailouts and now the medical reform. We are in a massive recession with unemployment rates at all time highs and real estate value at record lows. And instead of riding it out, this guy starts handing out billions of dollars as if its free. And then he has stimulus packages that are shortsighted in goal and painful in terms of the long term fiscal soundness of this country. Granted, I am taking advantage of one of them (1st time homebuyers credit), but that doesnt help the american populace on the whole. Now, after giving trillions of dollars to big business and to these stimulus packages, he is rushing to tackle medical reform. Something that will have a MASSIVE up front cost. Massive. It is the project of all projects that would require tons of money and a change in the mentality of the american people. Something that wont go over well. Regardless, there are a lot of things I thought I liked about Obama. But he is just continuing the practice of fiscal irresponsibility and the practice of rushing into big decisions without thinking things through. Its gonna be a disaster.

[CrespoBlows]

And I do expect Obama to raise taxes. He's already raising taxes on the higher tax brackets by letting the Bush tax cuts "expire". I find that hilarious. I am not raising taxes, I am just letting tax cuts expire. What a political BS move. Now, he is talking about raising taxes on families who make over 250K when his policy line initially was anyone over 500K. He's a democrat snake, the uber democrat. Possibly the most liberal liberal to ever take office and he has the power of the senate and congress on his side. Hence, I wouldnt trust him at all. Also, the federal reserve can only bail us out for so long, since by pulling cash out of it, you effectively decrease the value of the american dollar. Eventually, the piper will need to be paid.

What I find just irresponsible is the timing of all these bailouts and now the medical reform. We are in a massive recession with unemployment rates at all time highs and real estate value at record lows. And instead of riding it out, this guy starts handing out billions of dollars as if its free. And then he has stimulus packages that are shortsighted in goal and painful in terms of the long term fiscal soundness of this country. Granted, I am taking advantage of one of them (1st time homebuyers credit), but that doesnt help the american populace on the whole. Now, after giving trillions of dollars to big business and to these stimulus packages, he is rushing to tackle medical reform. Something that will have a MASSIVE up front cost. Massive. It is the project of all projects that would require tons of money and a change in the mentality of the american people. Something that wont go over well. Regardless, there are a lot of things I thought I liked about Obama. But he is just continuing the practice of fiscal irresponsibility and the practice of rushing into big decisions without thinking things through. Its gonna be a disaster.

I don't see how he's any more liberal than FDR, LBJ, or even W. Jr. for that matter, but good point on the expiration of Bush tax cuts.

I believe his policy line has always been $250,000, but the inflation tax should count as a tax increase. That hits people under that bracket the hardest.

EDIT* So should cap-and-trade, and the Sin Tax on cigarettes.

[jacksonianmarch]

When he first began running, going through the primaries, his number was actually a million. Then, it was 500K. Now its 250K. Its like getting penalized for making something out of yourself.

[ORS]

The GWB II tax cuts were 3&#37; across the board + reductions to capital gains taxes. So, you can count on a 3% increase for everyone.

[jacksonianmarch]

"BUT HE ISNT RAISING TAXES!!!" Thats the rally cry for the Obama supporters. I am just shocked how loyal people can be to someone when he bold-faced lies to them.

[ORS]

Oh and the child tax credit reduces from $1000 to $600 when that tax bill expires. So, I'm planning on 3&#37; more taxes + $1200 in reduced credits.

[CrespoBlows]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/31/2009-08-31_ted_kennedys_wife_good_fit_for_senate_seat_say_ pols.html

Nepotism in the USA.

[Dipre]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/31/2009-08-31_ted_kennedys_wife_good_fit_for_senate_seat_say_ pols.html

Nepotism in the USA.

The media's gonna crush even the insinuation.

What a stupid move.

[The_Destroyah]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/31/2009-08-31_ted_kennedys_wife_good_fit_for_senate_seat_say_ pols.html

Nepotism in the USA.

what an absolutely god awful idea.

[CrespoBlows]

http://www.seattlepi.com/connelly/409872_joel07.html?source=mypi

Partisan politics at its finest.

[a700hitter]

what an absolutely god awful idea.It's only a matter of time before Dodd takes a poke at the widow.

[rhet]

It's only a matter of time before Dodd takes a poke at the widow.

But thankfully not Barney Frank.

[rhet]

Barack Obama Wins NL Most Valuable Player Award

October 9, 2009

NEW YORK — In a stunning surprise, Barack Obama has won the National League MVP Award. Major League Baseball announced Friday that it had awarded its highest honor to President Obama “for his extraordinary efforts to follow the sport and strengthen hope and cooperation between peoples.”

“He has created a new climate,” MLB said in its announcement. Because he is not technically a professional baseball player, President Obama’s name had not figured in speculation about the likely winner until minutes before the prize was announced here.

Likely candidates had been seen here as including sluggers Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard, as well as shortstop Hanley Ramirez who captured the NL batting title with a .342 batting average.

[Emmz]

Lolwut?

[yeszir]

Barack Obama Wins NL Most Valuable Player Award

October 9, 2009

NEW YORK — In a stunning surprise, Barack Obama has won the National League MVP Award. Major League Baseball announced Friday that it had awarded its highest honor to President Obama “for his extraordinary efforts to follow the sport and strengthen hope and cooperation between peoples.”

“He has created a new climate,” MLB said in its announcement. Because he is not technically a professional baseball player, President Obama’s name had not figured in speculation about the likely winner until minutes before the prize was announced here.

Likely candidates had been seen here as including sluggers Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard, as well as shortstop Hanley Ramirez who captured the NL batting title with a .342 batting average.

Actually got a chuckle out of me.

[Optimist]

Yeah, that was pretty funny. There's a lengthier one over at the Huffington Post which was really funny too.

[Keeper]

Haha, nice commentary.

[a700hitter]

ZlKIfzoC8D0I wonder if he also says Marine Corpse

[RedSoxRooter]

Tea Party turns nasty: ‘It’s our country – let’s take it back’

They will proudly boast of how they have galvanised ordinary Americans against runaway government spending, but a dark underbelly of xenophobia has been exposed at the first national gathering of the Tea Party movement.

Here in the vast Gaylord resort in Nashville, where 600 members of the conservative grassroots phenomenon that exploded in revolt against President Obama’s economic policies have gathered, it would be advisable not to wear a T-shirt declaring “I am an illegal immigrant”.

The anti-Government, anti-Establishment movement, which has splintered in the past week with many boycotting this gathering, has billed itself as a revolution born of the widespread disgust at Washington and the way that the nation’s politicians are bankrupting America’s future.

With its raucous protests it has undeniably become a political force that threatens to hand Democrats a disastrous midterm election night in November. Voter anger against spending and debt, of which the Tea Partiers are in the vanguard, played a significant role in the recent loss of the late Edward Kennedy’s Senate seat and could conceivably lead to Democrats losing the House and Senate.

Yet the speech that opened the Nashville event yesterday, an address greeted with whoops and cheers from the mainly white audience, reflects a movement that also appears to have a less attractive side to it.

Tom Tancredo, a former Republican congressman who ran for president in 2008 on an anti-illegal immigration platform, said of the voters who elected Mr Obama: “They could not even spell the word ‘vote’ or say it in English and they put a committed socialist ideologue in the White House — Barack Hussein Obama!”

Decrying America’s multiculturalism, Mr Tancredo said that Republicans and Democrats had voted for a black man because they felt they had to. To a standing ovation, he shouted: “We really do have a culture to pass on to our children: it’s based on Judaeo-Christian values.”

“This is our country,” he declared. “Let’s take it back!” He added, to applause: “Cultures are not the same. Some are better. Ours is best!” The crowd, some wearing recently purchased T-shirts saying “Keep the change — I’ll keep my FREEDOM my GUNS and my MONEY”, loved it.

Mr Tancredo’s speech was followed by music from Lisa Mei Norton, who sang among other songs one entitled Where Were You Born?, a reference to the right-wing “birther” movement which believes that Mr Obama is not a natural-born US citizen.

One featured speaker, a “Patriot Pastor” named Rick Scarborough, told The Times that he was not against legal immigrants “but God has ordained that you are not a nation if you don’t have borders”. Standing next to a pile of books entitled Liberalism Kills Kids, he added: “If this country becomes 30 per cent Hispanic we will no longer be America. We don’t want to become like the UK where in places you have Sharia.

“English is our language. We are Americans. We’re not Hispanic-Americans, or African-Americans — we are Americans.”

He then invoked Winston Churchill when he referred to the inauguration of Mr Obama. “A year ago we thought we had lost the war. A year later they are reeling. I believe God has once again given America an opportunity for a new beginning. Even in the darkest days of the blitzkrieg, Churchill said ‘no surrender’.”

Sarah Palin, the Republican’s 2008 vice-presidential nominee and former Alaskan Governor, is due to speak tonight. She is attending in part because it enhances her anti-Washington, outsider image — and because these are the type of people who will do anything for her.

Thomas Chanteloupe, a 45-year-old wearing a Sarah Palin badge, said without prompting: “I’m the same age as Sarah Palin, we left high school at the same time, we’re both big Reagan fans, we both have three children, we’re both the middle children, and both our fathers were high-school teachers and sports coaches.”

That’s Palin fever for you.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7017218.ece

[a700hitter]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7017218.eceSo, I guess the approach will be to call all of O's critics racists. Weak.

[RedSoxRooter]

I didn't mention you.

[Keeper]

The Tea Party is just another name for the Religious Right.

[VA Sox Fan]

Posted by Keeper in the Dojji Job Interview thread:

The old double standard game. Because Beck and Limbaugh are "entertainers," it's okay for them to say it? It's not like they're influential or anything. They only have have millions of listeners. I also can't help but wonder how faux outraged you would be if an entertainer like Sean Penn did something like this.

Nice try. No one gives a crap about what Sean Penn, anyone in Hollywood or the Music Industry have to say about politics. Most of them don't live in the real world and have no idea what it's about.

[VA Sox Fan]

The Tea Party is just another name for the Religious Right.

Yeah, the Religious Right are the only ones upset about the current Administration. That's why Republican Brown beat Democrat Coakley in one of the most Liberal states in the country. It'll be similar in the Nov 2010 elections.

[a700hitter]

The Tea Party is just another name for the Religious Right.I oppose just about all of this administrations policies regarding the economy and the environment, and if I went into a House of Worship my hair would probably go on fire. It is my peeps-- the people who work every day and pay lots of taxes that took the Kennedy seat from the Dems and we will sweep out lots more Dems if jobs don't get created in significant numbers. It won't be the religious right.

I am old timey. The time horizon for my career is short. The young people should care. I was starting out when Carter was POTUS and there were nooo jobs. The economy was in the crapper. His policies of turning down the thermostat and tightening our belts was never going to work. IMO, this guy is Jimmy Carter part 2. My generation woke up and rejected the liberal politics that had dominated Washington, D.C. for 25 years. The result was a robust economy for most of my working career. Young people, wake up. This time it's your life.

[a700hitter]

And Sean Penn is a douche. He is irrelevant to everyone but himself, Hollywood and the mainstream press. He swaps spit with a dictator that believes the US military caused the earthquake in Haiti with a bomb detonated in the ocean, and he is good friends with another irrelevant wackadoo, Charlie Sheen (I love Two and Half Men) who thinks that the Bush Administration planned and carried out 9/11. Should the Press be giving these two idiots any time at all.

[Emmz]

Sean Penn is a complete moron, and using him and I don't really think that anyone else's opinions besides your own are viable for an argument. Whenever I argue with democrats, they always do that, they use quotes from these whack-job theorists/ACTORS/MUSICIANS who basically think that the so-called "religious right" is what caused everything. If you're going to source something, at least use a viable source, not Sean Penn or someone of the same caliber, who shows an obvious political agenda.

I don't know how badly I'd be blasted if I used a Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity argument to support my own. It takes credibility away from your argument, and makes it look like you're relying on someone else to make your points for you.

[Keeper]

Yeah, the Religious Right are the only ones upset about the current Administration. That's why Republican Brown beat Democrat Coakley in one of the most Liberal states in the country. It'll be similar in the Nov 2010 elections.

Coakley lost because she ran a shitty campaign. There's really nothing more to it.

[Keeper]

Sean Penn is a complete moron, and using him and I don't really think that anyone else's opinions besides your own are viable for an argument. Whenever I argue with democrats, they always do that, they use quotes from these whack-job theorists/ACTORS/MUSICIANS who basically think that the so-called "religious right" is what caused everything. If you're going to source something, at least use a viable source, not Sean Penn or someone of the same caliber, who shows an obvious political agenda.

I don't know how badly I'd be blasted if I used a Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity argument to support my own. It takes credibility away from your argument, and makes it look like you're relying on someone else to make your points for you.

You lack reading comprehension. Limbaugh and Beck were referred to as entertainers by a700. Penn is an entertainer, just like Limbaugh and Beck. That's why I used him as an example. Should I have used Alec Baldwin instead? Does it really fucking matter? They're all either on the far left or the far right.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7017218.ece

Fuck those people. Twice.


And anyone who believes entertainers don't hold some sort of effect on people must be out of their mind. This country sucks up anything spoon fed to them, be it from Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Penn, any other actor, musician, sports figure or anything. Any of those people can make some sort of opinion and tons of people will latch on to it immediately and believe it.

“This is our country,” he declared. “Let’s take it back!” He added, to applause: “Cultures are not the same. Some are better. Ours is best!”

And I hate this attitude. I have no idea who this dude is, but just reading this and some stuff from a wikipedia article he seems like a thin vieled racist prick.

[Emmz]

You lack reading comprehension. Limbaugh and Beck were referred to as entertainers by a700. Penn is an entertainer, just like Limbaugh and Beck. That's why I used him as an example. Should I have used Alec Baldwin instead? Does it really fucking matter? They're all either on the far left or the far right.

You're taking what I said out of context, and being an assbag in the process. I'm not a fan of using Limbaugh, or Beck, or Hannity, or Penn, or any of those dickbags' opinions as arguments. I noted that, so I guess, you're the one who lacks reading comprehension. All I said was to use your own opinions, or the opinions of someone who isn't decisively in the tank for a particular party as your points in a discussion. You took that and tried to insult me with it.

Think about it for more than two seconds.

[Dipre]

Please stop fighting over politics. It's ridiculous.:(

[Emmz]

Fuck those people. Twice.


And anyone who believes entertainers don't hold some sort of effect on people must be out of their mind. This country sucks up anything spoon fed to them, be it from Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Penn, any other actor, musician, sports figure or anything. Any of those people can make some sort of opinion and tons of people will latch on to it immediately and believe it.

“This is our country,” he declared. “Let’s take it back!” He added, to applause: “Cultures are not the same. Some are better. Ours is best!”

And I hate this attitude. I have no idea who this dude is, but just reading this and some stuff from a wikipedia article he seems like a thin vieled racist prick.

I usually don't assume any context until I know the context, but from what I see, yeah, that seems Aryan-esque. However, like I said, people often take one little snippet to support the argument, very well-placed, and leave out other crucial information. Such as when CNN, I think it was Mathews or that other asshat Obermann or whatever, took a clip of Sarah Palin talking about "spreading the wealth", painting her as a hypocrite, when she was talking about giving money back to the people that had been taken from the corrupt state. It wasn't socialistic in the least, but CNN made it seem like that.

I'll probably get blasted for posting this, but you'd be surprised what people can do to make things sound about a million times worse than they truly are.

[Spudboy]

Please stop fighting over politics. It's ridiculous.:(

No shit.

[Emmz]

Please stop fighting over politics. It's ridiculous.:(

It CAN be civil.

[Keeper]

Jesus. You're making too much of this and I suspect you're missing the point (http://www.talksox.com/forum/general-off-topic-chat/13760-i-have-job-interview-tomorrow-3.html). Like I said, I only mentioned Penn because he falls on the opposite side of the political spectrum from Limbaugh and Beck and because they're all entertainers.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I'll probably get blasted for posting this, but you'd be surprised what people can do to make things sound about a million times worse than they truly are.

This this this. From both sides too. It's what's turned me off of all this politics stuff. I don't know why I even really bothered to post in this thread, all this politics stuff is really just shit

[schillingouttheks]

Coakley lost because she ran a shitty campaign. There's really nothing more to it.

I don't know about you, but I can tell you that everyone in my neighborhood along with many other residents of Massachusetts just thought she was a fucking idiot. It had nothing to do with bad politics, or other stupid moves; she was just simply stupid. Almost everything that came out of her mouth was either factually incorrect or not mentally screened. The entire vibe she gave off was that she was going to be a puppet for the other democrats in Congress.

Now, everyone calm down. If you are using a curse word in an offensive manner towards another poster on this board (instead of frustratingly describing the content of your post, as what I did above), you probably shouldn't be posting it.

[Spudboy]

I really try to avoid political discussion on Talksox.

But I feel I can say some things that may not be controversial or shit storm inducing.

Coakley was not a good choice for the Dems. In fact, they had no electable candidates, from what I saw.

I don't know any intelligent or enlightened person here that would say That Martha Coakley is stupid. She is actually pretty intelligent, well educated, and tough. In my opinion. But she had a very poor campaign staff and made some really visible blunders. Simply, she screwed the pooch.

Add to that, many people in Massachusetts are becoming economically displaced and fearful that all they have been working for is now in jeopardy. Somehow their fear has manifested itself in a reactionary repudiation of "more of the same". Hence, many who had previously voted for Democrats decided to vote for someone else. This trend has been evident since the late '80 in this state.

[Emmz]

Democrats, especially in "Ted Kennedy's Seat", should usually have it locked up in Massachusetts, regardless of everything else. I think it's probably a sign that the people aren't really in favor of this heavy democrat Washington. Usually when there's a democrat president, the congress goes republican, and for a republican, democrats are in the congress.

Not always, but that's the way it's been lately. I expect the Republicans to take majorities come the elections. It doesn't help that Obama's approval rating is sinking pretty quickly as well.

[Emmz]

This this this. From both sides too. It's what's turned me off of all this politics stuff. I don't know why I even really bothered to post in this thread, all this politics stuff is really just shit

I agree with you that it's both sides. It simply happens all the time, FNC, CNN, MSNBC, everyone does it with great frequency. You can't just take whatever they say, and go "ZOMGZOSHGASP". You have to just say, well from what it looks like, it could be, but I'm not going to judge until I see solid proof, not some (literally) one-sentence snippet of what the person actually said.

However, people have always been too simple to really look into it, conservatives drink the FNC Kool-Aid, and the liberals drink the CNN Kool-Aid. They don't bother to check context of what was actually said, or facts, they just accept it as it is. Usually if a source is being honest, the audio/video clip lasts more than a sentence, or half a sentence.

[rhet]

Does Obama's "Pay Czar" have authority over Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin or Rosie O'Donnell? Or is he just in charge of CEOs?

[a700hitter]

Wow!! This all started from a joke that I made about Head Start being a program for retards as Rahim Emanuel would say--- just a joke based on current events. The left (aka Obama Kool Aid drinkers) got very sensitive a blew this up out of proportion and in the process misrepresented what Limbaugh said.

[rhet]

Wow!! This all started from a joke that I made about Head Start being a program for retards as Rahim Emanuel would say--- just a joke based on current events. The left (aka Obama Kool Aid drinkers) got very sensitive a blew this up out of proportion and in the process misrepresented what Limbaugh said.


What did Limbaugh say?

[a700hitter]

The Obama Kool Aid drinkers have lots of pressure on them trying to spin the special Massachusetts election, so they are super sensitive. They freak out when it is pointed out that the media acclaimed articulate President (and Commander in Chief) doesn't know that they are not Navy "Corpse-men" and that it is not the Marine Corpse. If GWB had said this, there would have been unending ridicule. Thank goodness for the Internet. People will start to realize that Obama is not so articulate and certainly not a great intellect. The Press always sets up the Dem candidates as intellectuals, and few of them have been intellectually gifted. Kerry's IQ was lower than GWB's. Gore has exposed himself as a boob, and if you listen to Obama closely you'd have to conclude that he has no clue.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

This is fucking funny.

[a700hitter]

This is fucking funny.Then you should find this to be hysterical.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/poll_shows_voters_abandoning_prez_8heJoGQmfWVfPUtm x00JAM

[26 to 6]

Then you should find this to be hysterical.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/poll_shows_voters_abandoning_prez_8heJoGQmfWVfPUtm x00JAM
Good! He was all talk in his campaign, and he hasn't done shit since!

Impeach Obama! Elect Paul!

[Keeper]

Of course, everyone misrepresents what Limbaugh says. He's so misunderstood! And yeah, Obama misspoke. Big time. Oh noes, it's not like Bush didn't have a gaffe in pretty much every speech he ever delivered.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Oh no, Obama has been in office only 1 year and hasn't changed the world! We still haven't won the war on terror, the economy hasn't skyrocketed and we all still have to work our asses off to make a living! What a fucking fraud. We'd be in a better position even if our president was Sarah Palin's retarded infant.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Of course, everyone misrepresents what Limbaugh says. He's so misunderstood! And yeah, Obama misspoke. Big time. Oh noes, it's not like Bush didn't have a gaffe in pretty much every speech he ever delivered.

But you're drinking the kool-aid!


Honestly, someone ought to close this thread, it's full of shit.

[a700hitter]

Of course, everyone misrepresents what Limbaugh says. He's so misunderstood! And yeah, Obama misspoke. Big time. Oh noes, it's not like Bush didn't have a gaffe in pretty much every speech he ever delivered.

Did Bush ever have one like this?

ZxBX8sz3tO8

[a700hitter]

Of course, everyone misrepresents what Limbaugh says. He's so misunderstood! And yeah, Obama misspoke. Big time. Oh noes, it's not like Bush didn't have a gaffe in pretty much every speech he ever delivered.

or this?

KbpWonUzlrc

[rhet]

OMG, he sounds like a blithering idiot... never saw those on the news....

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Wow, he lost his train of thought a few times, what a horrible idiot who shouldn't be president.:rolleyes:

[a700hitter]

Of course, everyone misrepresents what Limbaugh says. Actually, he is misrepresented all the time. He welcomes it. He baits his opponents constantly, and amazingly, they run with it hook, line and sinker every single time. As the controversial nature of Rush's statements increase so does the size of trap that he is setting. That's his MO.

[a700hitter]

OMG, he sounds like a blithering idiot... never saw those on the news....The press that slobbered over the man and his historic run for the Presidency never examined his policies, so why would they show you his Gaffes. I'm sure that these gaffes are GWB's fault.:lol:

[a700hitter]

Wow, he lost his train of thought a few times, what a horrible idiot who shouldn't be president.:rolleyes:Very articulate. If Bush had done this, he'd never emerged from the primaries.

[example1]

The press that slobbered over the man and his historic run for the Presidency never examined his policies, so why would they show you his Gaffes. I'm sure that these gaffes are GWB's fault.:lol:

The clip you showed says CNN on the bottom of it. Seems like they did show his gaffe, didn't they? Jesus.

to preempt any baiting (which I'm sure a700 would love) I have no interest in this discussion because his Presidency is still too young for there to be any ultimate grade given out. I will reevaluate in a few years when the next election is coming up.

[Spudboy]

Of course, everyone misrepresents what Limbaugh says. He's so misunderstood! And yeah, Obama misspoke. Big time. Oh noes, it's not like Bush didn't have a gaffe in pretty much every speech he ever delivered.

:D

[BigPapiEnFuego]

The clip you showed says CNN on the bottom of it. Seems like they did show his gaffe, didn't they? Jesus.

to preempt any baiting (which I'm sure a700 would love) I have no interest in this discussion because his Presidency is still too young for there to be any ultimate grade given out. I will reevaluate in a few years when the next election is coming up.

This. jumping to conclusions now and hating on a President who has only been around for a year is stupid.

[Spudboy]

Oh no, Obama has been in office only 1 year and hasn't changed the world! We still haven't won the war on terror, the economy hasn't skyrocketed and we all still have to work our asses off to make a living! What a fucking fraud. We'd be in a better position even if our president was Sarah Palin's retarded infant.

:D

[a700hitter]

The clip you showed says CNN on the bottom of it. Seems like they did show his gaffe, didn't they? Jesus.

I have no interest in this discussion because his Presidency is still too young for there to be any ultimate grade given out. I will reevaluate in a few years when the next election is coming up.Wow, Example gets smoked out. I've been waiting for that. Yes, Cable News Network (CNN) broadcast it, because it was a live feed. They didn't know he was going to shit the bed like that, and I don't think they rebroadcast it. I don't think that the major networks broadcast it at all. Not many people have seen these gaffes. I have posted them about three times on this forum, and yet there are TalkSox members that have never seen them.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Because no one cares if he made a gaffe. Everyone makes gaffes, it's human nature. He even said in one video he hadn't had much sleep in the last 48 hours. Lack of sleep does that. No one hated on Bush when he was butchering every speech like he was still an alcoholic, we all just laughed.

[Emmz]

The clip you showed says CNN on the bottom of it. Seems like they did show his gaffe, didn't they? Jesus.

to preempt any baiting (which I'm sure a700 would love) I have no interest in this discussion because his Presidency is still too young for there to be any ultimate grade given out. I will reevaluate in a few years when the next election is coming up.

It was probably Glen Beck or something like that, I believe he was with CNN at the time, and also, in general, the press, Fox included, did not show that, probably because they weren't allowed to. The censorship of anyone trying to expose Obama IS immense, whether you're democrat or republican, I think everyone can see that.

He even started a program, Big Brother, that would put anyone who was supposedly against Obama, on a watchlist. All you had to do was report them to flag@whitehouse.gov. That's not just ridiculous, it's scary.

I'm not a republican, I consider myself libertarian, and I didn't vote for McCain/Palin either.

[example1]

Wow, Example gets smoked out. I've been waiting for that. Yes, Cable News Network (CNN) broadcast it, because it was a live feed. They didn't know he was going to shit the bed like that, and I don't think they rebroadcast it. I don't think that the major networks broadcast it at all. Not many people have seen these gaffes. I have posted them about three times on this forum, and yet there are TalkSox members that have never seen them.

Yes, you smoked me out of my cave and here I am in broad daylight.

Nobody gives two shits about gaffes like that. It is in no way a reflection of whether or not he is capable of holding the position. Remember how OBGYNs practice their "love" with their patients? Did that gaffe matter? Nope.

Everyone has seen enough of Obama to know that he's a smart guy who knows what he is doing. The only people still wondering that are the people who have been against him from the very beginning, like yourself.

You're a good enough man to at least make your bias known to everyone, which helps them not have to take you seriously. A700, meet the ignore list.

[Emmz]

Because no one cares if he made a gaffe. Everyone makes gaffes, it's human nature. He even said in one video he hadn't had much sleep in the last 48 hours. Lack of sleep does that. No one hated on Bush when he was butchering every speech like he was still an alcoholic, we all just laughed.

I'm not a fan of George Bush, but I disagree with you. He was painted as a complete idiot by his gaffes, while Obama makes some hardcore gaffes when he's not cheating, that would make Bush look like Einstein.

By that logic, I can understand it. Obama's not this great speaker. Aside from that, if you can laugh at Bush making gaffes, why's it so serious when Obama makes them? I don't understand that. I also think this can be a civil discussion.

[Emmz]

Yes, a live feed would explain it too. Didn't really think of that.

[example1]

It was probably Glen Beck or something like that, I believe he was with CNN at the time, and also, in general, the press, Fox included, did not show that, probably because they weren't allowed to. The censorship of anyone trying to expose Obama IS immense, whether you're democrat or republican, I think everyone can see that.

He even started a program, Big Brother, that would put anyone who was supposedly against Obama, on a watchlist. All you had to do was report them to flag@whitehouse.gov. That's not just ridiculous, it's scary.

I'm not a republican, I consider myself libertarian, and I didn't vote for McCain/Palin either.

WTF are you talking about? Censorship against people trying to "expose" Obama? I suppose we should expect a considerable slapdown to the teapartiers who were demanding his birth certificate and who were trying to paint him as a fraud at last weekend's event, right?

It's only scary if you're paranoid about what the federal government is capable of doing. I'm not so I'm not worried about it.

[example1]

By that logic, I can understand it. Obama's not this great speaker. Aside from that, if you can laugh at Bush making gaffes, why's it so serious when Obama makes them? I don't understand that. I also think this can be a civil discussion.

Serious? The whole crowd laughed.

[Emmz]

Everyone has seen enough of Obama to know that he's a smart guy who knows what he is doing. The only people still wondering that are the people who have been against him from the very beginning, like yourself.

Don't know about that, he's been around for a year, and while I don't think he's some kind of basket case, I don't think he's a very smart, articulate man, or at least to the degree that many seem to think he is, which is basically that he's the smartest president who's ever lived. I certainly don't agree with that, and I don't think that gaffes should account for his intellect, however, by the logic used on Bush, which was that he was a terrible speaker, and therefore a complete idiot, then Obama isn't very smart either.

Like I said, I disagree with that, but I understand what a700's getting at for certain.

[Emmz]

Serious? The whole crowd laughed.

Yes, and when you bring it up again, then everyone gets all bent out of shape about it. Really, I'm just trying to discuss this, I don't understand why you have to "wtf" and "seriously" me.

[Keeper]

by the logic used on Bush, which was that he was a terrible speaker, and therefore a complete idiot, then Obama isn't very smart either.

Like I said, I disagree with that, but I understand what a700's getting at for certain.

That wasn't why many considered Bush to be a complete idiot. It was a contributing factor.

[a700hitter]

Yes, you smoked me out of my cave and here I am in broad daylight.

Nobody gives two shits about gaffes like that. It is in no way a reflection of whether or not he is capable of holding the position. Remember how OBGYNs practice their "love" with their patients? Did that gaffe matter? Nope.

Everyone has seen enough of Obama to know that he's a smart guy who knows what he is doing. The only people still wondering that are the people who have been against him from the very beginning, like yourself.

You're a good enough man to at least make your bias known to everyone, which helps them not have to take you seriously. A700, meet the ignore list.Wow, so sensitive. Things must be bad on the left. The Ignore list is the coward's way out, but I am not surprised.

My family was life long, loyal Democrats right up through Kennedy in 1960. The 60's and the Great Society, which has not eradicated poverty in the least in 50 years, turned my family away from liberal politics. If you want to use the word "bias" to describe my being against policies that don't work and that have zero chance of working, I think that is an incorrect use of the word.

I'll make a prediction here. If the economy continues to be sluggish with no job growth and the Dems take a bath in November, it will be his own party that will take him down. I don't know how, but it will be the Dems not the Republicans that will be his biggest problem after November if the elections are one-sided. The results in NJ, VA and Massachusetts do not bode well for the Dems. They will blame B.O. if there is no job growth soon and it costs them their jobs.

[Emmz]

WTF are you talking about? Censorship against people trying to "expose" Obama? I suppose we should expect a considerable slapdown to the teapartiers who were demanding his birth certificate and who were trying to paint him as a fraud at last weekend's event, right?

I think a president not having a birth certificate is a valid reason for doubt.


It's only scary if you're paranoid about what the federal government is capable of doing. I'm not so I'm not worried about it.

I'm not paranoid of the government so much either, but that doesn't excuse trying to compile a list of people who are against you. That sounds like something they'd do in the USSR. Granted, they probably won't show up at 2AM, take you out of your house, and you'll never be heard from again, but it's still not right.

[Emmz]

That wasn't why Bush was a complete idiot. It was a contributing factor.

Elaborate, I think I could make an equally valid argument for Obama's case as well, with his gaffes just being a "contributing factor".

[Keeper]

You don't believe Bush was an idiot and you want to see Obama's birth certificate. There is really nothing I can say to you to get through to you.

[a700hitter]

You don't believe Bush was an idiot and you want to see Obama's birth certificate. There is really nothing I can say to you to get through to you.It is funny that Bush's most offensive policies have been perpetuated by Obama. We are still in Iraq. We have escalated the war in Afghanistan, and GITMO is still operating. I guess if Buss was an idiot, then Obama must also be an idiot.

[Emmz]

You don't believe Bush was an idiot and you want to see Obama's birth certificate. There is really nothing I can say to you to get through to you.

So you're being cutting, because you can't make a legitimate argument? Grow up, seriously, whenever someone opposes you, you go into a blind shit-tossing mode. I'm a libertarian, and you're trying to paint me as a republican. Keep digging your hole, and the fact that you're okay with having someone who may not be qualified to be a president, be a president, then that's just testifying to your irrational thinking.

Remember when John McCain was supposedly ineligible because he was born in the Panama Canal zone? Yeah, the dems got all excited, and thought they could disqualify him. Well, his parents were both US citizens. He could have been born on Neptune, and he would be eligible to hold the Executive Office.

That's the double standard that the media creates, because it leans heavily to the left. If you want to start using the bias card against me, then your argument doesn't hold much water.

[yeszir]

I think this thread is probably sliding towards being locked.

[example1]

You don't believe Bush was an idiot and you want to see Obama's birth certificate. There is really nothing I can say to you to get through to you.

Pretty much.

I'm convinced that if Obama were a white man nobody would be asking for his birth certificate.

As far as Bush being an idiot, it has a lot less to do with his gaffes than it does with his stupid decisions.

[a700hitter]

It's only scary if you're paranoid about what the federal government is capable of doing. I'm not so I'm not worried about it.Governments have never been known to become tyrannical? Are you serious? The founding fathers designed the Constitution with the thought that a Government without limited powers would inevitably become tyrannical. They didn't believe that it would be a possibility. They believed it to be a certainty.

[Emmz]

Then you could say the same for Obama, and I'm done, the race card pretty much kills all discussion, so I'm done with this one.

[a700hitter]

I think this thread is probably sliding towards being locked.Don't go there Dave. It's civil. If you don't like what is being said, you are going to act the tyrant?

[a700hitter]

Then you could say the same for Obama, and I'm done, the race card pretty much kills all discussion, so I'm done with this one.It really doesn't take the libs long to get there--the race card. They have to demonize, because they have no support in history, logic, and substance.

[yeszir]

Don't go there Dave. It's civil. If you don't like what is being said, you are going to act the tyrant?

My ass it's civil. Every single post in this thread by people on both sides of whatever argument you're all having is dripping with contempt. It's threads like this that make people start shit in other threads.

I don't give a shit what's being said, don't accuse me of censoring.

Go to http://www.debatepolitics.com/ if you want to talk about politics.

[example1]

Remember when John McCain was supposedly ineligible because he was born in the Panama Canal zone? Yeah, the dems got all excited, and thought they could disqualify him. Well, his parents were both US citizens. He could have been born on Neptune, and he would be eligible to hold the Executive Office.

That's the double standard that the media creates, because it leans heavily to the left. If you want to start using the bias card against me, then your argument doesn't hold much water.

You lean to the right, so you percieve that everyone else leans left. Nobody seriously cared that McCain was born in the Panama Canal zone and nobody was excited to disqualify him. Show me where the mainstream media ran with that as a legitimate concern.

[rhet]

It's only scary if you're paranoid about what the federal government is capable of doing. I'm not so I'm not worried about it.

You should be. The founders wrote the Constitution to specifically limit the power of government. Too many politicians forget this, including this president.

If they can take over companies and industries, and if they can limit what people working in private enterprises are paid, they have more power than was ever intended. And if they can force every individual citizen to buy a product (insurance) they might not want, they can do just about anything.