GOM's plan for Yankee dominance

[Gom]

Ahh...the thread you've all been waiting for...dreading actually. For I am convinced that Cashman read my column and followed it nearly to a T last year, and the end result is a championship. Two years ago, he ignored me and we missed the playoffs for the first time since 1995. Without further ado...and in no particular order...here we go.

1. Avoid Holliday. As good as his stats may be, he is not worth the money. First of all, his tenure in Oakland was nothing to write home about. An .832 OPS is more indicative of his performance in the AL instead of the insane 1.023 OPS with the Cardinals, in a weaker division and league. Also, he was horribly exposed in the NLDS. Of the 36 pitches he saw, 34 were inside fastballs. He hit one homerun, on you guessed it...a curveball. Considering the money he's going to command, would you rather have Damon AND Matsui short term or Holliday long-term? Let the Cardinals and Mets fight it out. Plus, with Arod, you need a lefty to even it out. Considering he will command a long-term contract, let him go back to the Cardinals or to the Mets, or as a suprise, the Giants. I doubt the Red Sox are dumb enough to take him on.

2. Resign Molina. 2 years/$4M. This may be the most important move the Yankees make. Posada was exposed as being an absolutely terrible defensive catcher. Anyone who watched Game Six of the World Series objectively was outright disgusted by how terrible he is behind the plate. Molina ended the season with a CERA that was a run and a half lower than Posada. His lack of framing nearly destroyed Pettitte. He still has a decent arm, but how many times does someone try to steal? It's all about the pitching, stupid. The Yankees beat the Phillies with nearly no production whatsoever from 1/3 of their lineup. Cervelli is decent, but could use another year of seasoning. The Yankees have too much money invested in pitching to NOT sign Molina.

3. Resign Damon. Two years/$18M. Abreu set the standard, which is going to be fair. Ideally, I would like to see a one year deal, but it won't get done with Boras. If he balks, let him walk. After playing the first few years in KC, then going to Oakland during their heyday, then the Red Sox and then the Yankees...I can't see him going to a middling team. This is tough because of Boras. A take it or leave it offer. His home/away splits are putrid, he is a by-product of Yankee Stadium...but since we play half of our games in Yankee Stadium, it's beneficial. Offer him arbitration and hope he takes it. One year at $13 million would be a Godsend. Then the Yankees can look to Carl Crawford next season as they are only on the hook for one year. If he rejects it and they can't work out a deal, we got two draft picks.

4. Resign Matsui. One year/$7 million. A professional hitter with the ability to hit lefties and righties, his market is limited as there are many DHs on the market. Winning is it's own drug, and the reality is we're starting to see what we saw in the 90's...players WANTING to play in New York. Winning does that for you.

5. Resign Pettitte. One year/$12 million. Pettitte will pretty much go year to year at this point. I don't think he will retire, he still has the ability to pitch effectively. He wants to come back, and the Yankees want him back.

6. Sign John Lackey. 6 years/$100 million. Throw the kitchen sink at this guy. His numbers are comparable to AJ Burnett, and he should command about the same amount of money. A quartet of CC, Lackey, AJ and Pettitte and we can book another trip to October.

7. Non-tender Wang, but bring him back. One year/$5 million. You can never have enough pitching. With four spots wrapped up, you leave a spring training competition between Hughes, Chamberlain, and Wang for number five, with the two losers going to the pen. I am of the belief that the 5th spot should always be a competition in the hope of catching lightning in a bottle. Plus, it will allow Girardi to stretch out the pitchers so they can save their arms for the post-season. This was the reason for going three deep in the playoffs.

Where does that leave us salary-wise? Molina is a wash, and so is Pettitte for the most part. Wang saves you a million. You save $6 million on Matsui, $4 million on Damon, and $5 million on Nady. That means breaking even and getting Lackey. Not only that, but Nady projects to be a Type A...so you don't even lose draft picks by signing Lackey.

The bullpen is unchanged. Cashman has assembled a bunch of pitchers who are interchangeable that there is no reason to go outside of the organization. Let Giradi figure out what to do with Marte, Coke, Aceves, Gaudin, Chamberlain/Hughes or both, Robertson, Kennedy, Bruney et. al.

This leaves a LOT of roster flexibility. Let's face it...this is an older team. Their core players are all on the wrong side of 35. Sooner or later, these players will start to decline. Jeter quieted his critics by turning back the clock defensively. Arod rebounded. Posada will continue his decline into oblivion. I fully expect Posada to catch a pitch next year, throw his glove down, and stomp on it. His contract the next two years will hamstring the Yankees. Mariano defies the odds, and is quite possibly the most amazing pitcher I've ever seen.

Most fans will see things as continuing. Father Time has a say in this. The Yankee players under 30 are nothing to write home about. Cashman has to manage the money until some of his players, the Jacksons and Monteros are ready. The Yankees cannot afford any more long-term deals. Short term deals at a higher AAV is a better risk.

A lesson to be learned from the Red Sox this year. They went into the season looking like they had a pitching surplus. It was a deficit by the end of the year.

Burnett, Joba, Wang, Hughes, and Pettitte have had injury issues. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them played an important role. I also wouldn't be surprised if all of them got injured. Let's face it...when it came to injuries to their staff, the Yankees were INCREDIBLY lucky this year.

Next year is the key. With the probably emergence of Austin Jackson, and the free agency of Carl Crawford, we could see two if not three changes in the OF.

I am a huge Crawford fan. With the excess in the pen, look to the Yankees to possibly package Melky with some of their surplus pitching to Tampa for Crawford and throwing him in CF. Gardner is not a major league hitter, and Melky is a weak stick as it is. Putting Gardner in there as well makes them a very weak team at the end of the lineup.

Cashman has done a good job in accumulating assets. This would allow him to use some of these chips in a deadline deal or to replace those that need replacing, and at a very low cost.

End result: Salary wash. Lackey replaces Gaudin.

Next...I will try my hand at Fixing the Red Sox.

[26 to 6]

Gom we made the playoffs in '95, you mean '93. :P
Anyways....

1-Agreed. Stay away from Holliday!!!

2-I'm impartial. He's as good a defensive catcher as they come, but he can't hit a lick. Unless the Yankees plan on carrying three catchers, which I don't see happening, I think Cervelli is more than capable of emerging as the new backup. He can hit a little and can call a great game. All the pitchers had great things to say about his game calling and defense behind the plate while he was with the big club this year. I think Cervelli has a bright future as a solid catcher, even with the emergence of Montero and Romine I think he can stick with the Yankees in a backup/platoon role for a long time here. As for next year though, it's getting clearer and clearer that Posada can't play as often, and when he's he's either DHing or not in the lineup I'm much more comfortable with Cervelli's bat in there than I am with Molina's. Now if the Yankees plan on DHing Posada a lot, then maybe carrying both Cervelli and Molina is a good thing, although it hurts our depth elsewhere tremendously. Ideally a third catcher should be able to play another position or 2 (granted Molina has played first, but he's a far from adequate first baseman), so I don't see it happening. If I were to choose between the two, I would go with Cervelli.

3 & 4-C'mon Gom, seriously? Both? It's not gonna happen. We need the room, unless you want your boy Posada behind the plate a significant portion of the season we need to open up some space, and the DH spot. I am all for bringing either of them back, but you can't do both. I would prefer Matsui, but only because he wouldn't require the 2 years that Damon would. I don't like the idea of giving Damon 2 years AT ALL. But Matsui is an injury risk with his balky knees, and he may or may not be able to play the field. He insists he can play the outfield, and is even willing to pick up a first baseman's glove. I say you offer them both a comparable one year deal, sign the first to accept, and let the other one go. I like both players very much, and I'm sure they can both be productive barring any injuries, but we can't keep them both and I would rather let them go one year too soon rather than one year too late.

5-Agreed. But how do you know he wants to come back? I hope he does but I wouldn't be surprised if he hangs them up (nor would I be surprised if Mo retired either), there's no better way to go out than coming off a World Series win while you can still perform. Both of them seem like guys that would want to go out on their own terms and not linger around and not be productive. If he does want to stick around then it goes without saying, bring him back!

6-Why? Seriously!? C'mon man. He's great, but age is a concern, as is the AL East. He's a tempting name, but I would stay away. He's gonna cost too much, and if we do sign him we're gonna get him for the twilight of his career. Not worth it if you ask me. Let the Mets sign him, he'd be perfect in Queens. The only way I would be open to Lackey is if we could trade Burnett. It won't happen in the second year of his $85 million deal, but I would LOVE for the Yankees to rid themselves of Burnett, ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.

7-Agreed, but if you're gonna non-tender him why offer him $5 mil? He wouldn't make that much in arbitration if they did tender him a contract. If he gets non-tendered they will try to bring him back on a Minor League deal to let him start the season in the minors and do some rehab and get back into the swing of things while keeping him off the 40 man roster. Whether they tender him a deal or not he'll be back at some point. But with his track record they can't non-tender him and let him go somewhere else. He's always been an injury risk his whole career coming up through the Minors, but when he's healthy he can be great, as we saw 2005-2008 when he was the winningest pitcher in the league.

I say flip-flop Hughes and Joba and let Hughes try his hand at starting again. Sign another quality starter who is not named Lackey and who will be cheaper to hold down a spot until CMW returns or if Hughes falters and goes back to the pen. I expect Hughes to excel though. He's got too much talent, and his horrid 2008 is far behind him. He's gotten his feet wet in the bigs, he's failed and succeeded in different roles and I think he would be a waste if we leave him out in the pen. The plan all along was for him to be a starter and hopefully our future ace. Joba on the other hand has convinced me he cannot start long-term and needs to go back to the pen full-time and get ready to succeed Mariano.

As for the outfield, Austin Jackson is probably still another year or so away as his prospect status has dropped a little bit after a marginal season. He hit .300 exactly, but only hit 4 homers with 65 RBIs (granted he hit out of the 2-hole most of the year) and accumulated just 204 total bases. Not to mention he had a .354 OBP and .405 slugging %. As for Crawford, I like him too, but only if we let Damon go. I have a hard time seeing Tampa Bay trade him within the division though, if at all. I think our best bet at him is to overpay in Free Agency. I say keep Melky around to be the CFer/4th OFer if Jackson emerges and trade Gardner if we can. He's a good gritty player but he looks like a little leaguer at the plate. All he's really got going for him is speed, both on the basepaths and tracking balls in the outfield. I think in the long run we can only keep one of Melky or Gardner to be our eventual 4th OFer, and I would much prefer Melky. Melky is Babe Ruth compared to Garnder, and he plays a slightly better defense, IMO. Not to mention he has a great arm, something Gardner does not. While he still has some value I say package Gardner in whatever big deal the Yankees look to make this offseason, whether it be for Crawford or someone else.

Also, I believe Nady has been declared a Type B already, not Type A. If he were an A there would be no question but to let him walk. But I think if he's willing to take a very cheap, incentive-laden deal we should explore the possibility of bringing him back to platoon with Swisher, especially if we only keep one of either Damon or Matsui. It's clear Swisher is a streaky player who at times in the season can be a liability, and I'm not too convinced that if both healthy he's better than Nady anyway. Having both of them gives us the chance to get them both enough rest to stay fresh and productive, especially Nady who's coming back from TJ (and might not be ready at the start of the season anyway, although most reports indicate he will be. Setbacks are always a possibility though. I'm no medical expert so direct any questions to Dr. Jacko), and it also gives us more flexibility elsewhere. If he needs to here and there Tex can DH and Swisher can play first or other things along those lines.

For the bench I would bring back Hairston and let Hinske walk. If the Yankees do take my advice and look into moving Gardner, Hairston has enough speed to come off the bench late and run, and he's just as versatile, if not more than Hinske. The only position that Hinske can play that Hairston can't is first. Other than that he can play third, the middle infield, and all over the outfield where as Hinske is strictly a corner guy. Hinske does have some pop, but we're the MFY, we hit 244 Home Runs this year. We don't need pop off the bench, we have enough of it in the lineup.

So basically this is what my rough/earlt Opening Day 25 man roster would look like. Keep in mind this will probably change 100 times as the offseason progresses and we see what's going in in Free Agency and Trades. Players in bold indicate my preferred choices.

Rotation:
Sabathia
Burnett
Pettitte
Hughes
Noah Lowry/Garland/Sheets/Pedro/Washburn (Lowry was just outrighted by SF and elected Free Agency after having surgery on his left forearm in 2008 forcing him to miss all of 2008 and all of 2009. In May he had rib removal surgery to relieve the continued pain in his shoulder and neck associated with his new recent diagnosis of thoracic outlet syndrome, which brought the original diagnosis of exertional compartment syndrome into question along with the necessity of his 2008 surgery. His name has always come up in rumors between the Yankees & Giants and coming back from injury he could be had on the cheap with just a Minor League deal/Spring Training invite. He anticipates being ready for Spring Training. Again, direct all questions to Dr. Jacko as I know nothing about what I just mentioned. He is the perfect type of pitcher to hold down a spot until CMW is ready, as is any of the others mentioned; but all things considered, especially financially, I think Lowry is the best bet. Wouldn't mind Sheets though)

Bullpen:
Mo
Joba
Aceves
Coke
Marte
Robertson
Melancon/Bruney/Gaudin/Mitre/Edwar/Pedro (I've always wanted to see Pedro in pinstripes and we know he's always wanted to wear pinstripes, and I really think he still has something left in the tank. As long as he's not starting every 5th day I think he can consistently come out and put up a solid inning or 2 consistently, and I don't think he would be too expensive. He's definitely a better option than any of the other 4 guys I mentioned before him)

Catchers:
Posada
Cervelli/Molina

Infielders/Outfielders:
Teixeira
Cano
Jeter
A-Rod
Swisher
Melky
Damon/Matsui
Nady
Hairston (He's a Type B so if he walks take the pick and sign one of the many other suitable FA bench players)
Pena/Hinske/Ronnie Belliard/Nomar/Mientkiewicz
Crawford/other possible trade recipient/Gardner (Maybe a package of Gardner, some prospects, and a reliever or 2 such as Bruney, Mitre, Edwar, Aceves, or Melancon could get it done. Even if it takes more, if the Rays are willing to deal him within the division, we gotta get him!)


Now THAT my friend, is a WINNING team.

[Dipre]

1. Avoid Holliday. As good as his stats may be, he is not worth the money. First of all, his tenure in Oakland was nothing to write home about. An .832 OPS is more indicative of his performance in the AL instead of the insane 1.023 OPS with the Cardinals, in a weaker division and league. Also, he was horribly exposed in the NLDS. Of the 36 pitches he saw, 34 were inside fastballs. He hit one homerun, on you guessed it...a curveball. Considering the money he's going to command, would you rather have Damon AND Matsui short term or Holliday long-term? Let the Cardinals and Mets fight it out. Plus, with Arod, you need a lefty to even it out. Considering he will command a long-term contract, let him go back to the Cardinals or to the Mets, or as a suprise, the Giants. I doubt the Red Sox are dumb enough to take him on.

Staying away from Holliday for his prohibitive cost is one thing, staying away because of his performance in Oakland because of his supposedly being "Exposed to the inside fastball" in the playoffs is an exercise in stupidity.

Allow me to elaborate.

For one, during his time in Oakland he was surrounded by a mediocre lineup, playing in a new league with a new team, yet still maintained a .378 OBP while playing above-average defense in LF, and hitting in one of the worst ballparks in the Majors, folks.

About the inside fastball:

Matt Holliday hot/cold zones. (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerHotZone?categoryId=200185)

As you can see in the chart, he hit .368 on middle inside pitches, .276 up and in, and .381 down and in in 2009.

You saying he's susceptible to the inside pitch is a fabrication. 12-15 ABs are indicative of nothing.

About his being unable to hit AL pitching, even with his "mediocre" .832 OPS with Oakland, here are Holliday's OPS numbers vs AL teams:

vs. BAL 1.472

vs. BOS .876

vs. CWS 1.271

vs. CLE .607

vs. DET 1.042

vs. KC 1.167

vs. LAA .813

vs. MIN 1.073

vs. NYY .690

vs. SEA .700

vs. TB .742

vs. TEX .882

vs. TOR .423

These are very limited sample sizes, but better than the couple ABs he got in the playoffs, and judging by these numbers, and adding the fact that he slumped badly for quite some in Oakland you can conclude that Holliday can in fact hit AL pitching. Specially given the right circumstances, because anyone who overlooks the fact that the Oakland offense and that savannah of a ballpark were major factors in his decreased production needs to get it together.

Holliday also brings to the table something extremely lacking in LF today: Defense.

UZR/150 last 3 seasons:

'07 14.7

'08 10.9

'09 6.0

Don't get me wrong, i know it's a flawed stat, but having seen the guy play, and looking up the stats to back up the argument, it's easy to conclude the guy's one of the best, if not, the best defensive LF in the game.

Add to that double digits stolen bases and smart base-running, and we've got ourselves a winner, folks.

One last thing, the "inferior" league argument is asinine in this case, because Holliday used to play in the NL West, a division stacked with good pitching and tough stadiums. By using a bit of logic and being able to put two and two together, all of these factors are easily put together to identify Holliday's true value.

Any team that is not the Mets with their shitty stadium will get their money's worth out of Holliday unless he gets injured.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree with Gom on a lot of things here, man.

First of all, Matsui and Damon are not coming back unless one of them takes a backup pay contract and role. It just isnt happening. And Matsui will find someone to give him more than a 1 yr contract, so that won't fly. But I do think it is imperative to bring one of them back, and to me that guy is Matsui. His bat protecting ARod was big all yr long and especially in the postseason. Damon in the 2 hole was great this yr, but seems to be a product of the stadium. Plus, he looks to be the more fragile of the two guys, pulling calves left and right. Matsui has balky knees, this we know. But if you dont put him in the OF often, they shouldnt be too much of a problem. Damon gets hurt every time he plays in cold weather, so he might not be the best play.

You dont lock up Molina for more than one yr. I'd be fine with him coming back. But with the catching depth that is coming up through the minors and with the kinds of defensive catchers we are breeding, it makes no sense to lock up a defense only catcher for more than one season. Cervelli offers more since he has average speed and can hit the ball a bit better than Jose.

Cashman and Co. have said that this off-season is about getting younger. And while resigning one of the old guard in the OF would actually age us by one yr, we need to address LF with a younger option. Damon isnt that guy. That is why I think Brad Hawpe ends up in pinstripes. There were some rumors a few weeks back that Ethier would be available for the right price, but his haul would be astronomical. I think Hawpe can be gotten for a reasonable sum and could lock down LF well for years to come.

I agree completely on Lackey. He is the exact kind of player we need. In his prime, gives innings, pitches like a horse in the postseason. He's a bit of an asshole to his fellow teammates, but I'd live with that if it meant getting close to 200IP of sub 4ERA and a playoff horse.

I also agree on signing Wang. He will allow for some insurance as will Gaudin, Mitre, Kennedy, and some of the other promising arms in the system.

Otherwise Gom, I agree with you these days. Must be the after championship glow.

[jacksonianmarch]

I absolutely wouldnt mind Pettitte coming back Gom. But I have a feeling he's retiring. Plus, we got a glimpse of what Pettitte might be next season. As the yr went on, he got by more on guile than anything else. His FB has lost another 2 mph. He was sitting in the 86-87mph range in both WS games.

[Gom]

This will get revamped if Pettitte retires of course. On second thought, I was probably a little high on Wang salary as well.

Funny how this goes Jacko...that I'm the one advocating keeping the younger players and not trading for Hawpe, and you're doing the opposite. Is the difference between Damon and Hawpe worth the cost in prospects? I don't believe so.

As for Dipre...again, close but no cigar. This is like a broken record. You try so hard....and fail. This seems to be a recurring theme both here and in personal life. You seem to agree that his cost is not worth his value, but you debate my point on his inability to hit the inside fastball in the NLDS.

See, in your desire to put in your two cents where they are not needed, you pointed out his hit chart. Kudos. What you failed to realize was I wasn't talking about the inside pitch, I was talking about the inside fastball. Did you know that the only homerun he hit was on a curveball? Did you know that of the 36 pitches he saw in the NLDS, 34 of them were inside fastballs? That his homerun came on a curveball? This kind of analysis is beyond your comprehension.

Again, the Yankees should avoid Holliday. If his price came down to the 10 million dollar deal, by all means get him. However, he will cost about 16 million a season for years, and this is cost prohibitive for the Yankees. It is simply not a good allocation of funds.

You could learn a thing or two, not only from me, but from your baseball better's, Jacko and 26. You took a marginal point and argued it [incorrectly], while agreeing with the big picture. A true exercise in futility.

My advice? Shut up, read, and you may learn something or two.

[Dipre]

This will get revamped if Pettitte retires of course. On second thought, I was probably a little high on Wang salary as well.

Funny how this goes Jacko...that I'm the one advocating keeping the younger players and not trading for Hawpe, and you're doing the opposite. Is the difference between Damon and Hawpe worth the cost in prospects? I don't believe so.

As for Dipre...again, close but no cigar. This is like a broken record. You try so hard....and fail. This seems to be a recurring theme both here and in personal life. You seem to agree that his cost is not worth his value, but you debate my point on his inability to hit the inside fastball in the NLDS.

See, in your desire to put in your two cents where they are not needed, you pointed out his hit chart. Kudos. What you failed to realize was I wasn't talking about the inside pitch, I was talking about the inside fastball. Did you know that the only homerun he hit was on a curveball? Did you know that of the 36 pitches he saw in the NLDS, 34 of them were inside fastballs? That his homerun came on a curveball? This kind of analysis is beyond your comprehension.

Again, the Yankees should avoid Holliday. If his price came down to the 10 million dollar deal, by all means get him. However, he will cost about 16 million a season for years, and this is cost prohibitive for the Yankees. It is simply not a good allocation of funds.

You could learn a thing or two, not only from me, but from your baseball better's, Jacko and 26. You took a marginal point and argued it [incorrectly], while agreeing with the big picture. A true exercise in futility.

My advice? Shut up, read, and you may learn something or two.

My adivice?

Quit the bumbling stupidity.

Please tell me what's the most thrown pitch by pitchers?

If he has a .330+ average in the inner part of the strike zone, how could he have it without hitting fastballs if fastballs are the bread and butter pitch of almost every pitcher in the Major Leagues?

Again, please use a bit of logic, and stop making shit up. Thanks.


And another thing, you really think you're smarter than scouts?

If Holliday really had a big hole in his swing against inside fastballs, they'd have been pounding him hard inside before he got called up from the Minors.

[BSN07]

I agree with Gom .

Damn Jacko and Gom giving the Yankees the double whammy! The Yanks are so screwed next year:lol:;)

[BSN07]

Wang could get a 3M base, with some incentives taking it to like 6M or 7M from someone.

I bet AZ, St. Louis, Boston, Philly, LAD would all be interested I would think.

[26 to 6]

On second thought, maybe we should keep Hinske, he might be good luck. Each of the last three years his team went to the World Series, twice they won.

[Divinity]

2. Resign Molina. 2 years/$4M. This may be the most important move the Yankees make. Posada was exposed as being an absolutely terrible defensive catcher. Anyone who watched Game Six of the World Series objectively was outright disgusted by how terrible he is behind the plate. Molina ended the season with a CERA that was a run and a half lower than Posada. His lack of framing nearly destroyed Pettitte. He still has a decent arm, but how many times does someone try to steal? It's all about the pitching, stupid. The Yankees beat the Phillies with nearly no production whatsoever from 1/3 of their lineup. Cervelli is decent, but could use another year of seasoning. The Yankees have too much money invested in pitching to NOT sign Molina.


4. Resign Matsui. One year/$7 million. A professional hitter with the ability to hit lefties and righties, his market is limited as there are many DHs on the market. Winning is it's own drug, and the reality is we're starting to see what we saw in the 90's...players WANTING to play in New York. Winning does that for you.
[/B]


Pretty sure they won't be bring Molina back for the following reason's :

1.) As bad as you may think Posada is behind the plate, he's still one of the remaining old championship Yankees, and he can still hit pretty well. Jason Veritek is far worse and yet the Red Sox still start him

2.) They have a pretty good defensive catcher in Cerveli, along with Jesus Montero (named the third best prospect in baseball by Baseball America) who will most likely be Posada's sucessor in a couple years.


As far as Matsui goes, his chances of coming back are slim to none. As you know Brian Cashman wants to get younger regardless of the sentimental value. Remember when he let Bernie Williams walk? Not only that, Matsui can't play the field, and should his knee's give out, can they afford having sit on the DL for a month or two? They've also stated they don't want one person clogging the DH, so they can give Jeter, Posada, Damon and A Rod days off from playing the field.

[jacksonianmarch]

This will get revamped if Pettitte retires of course. On second thought, I was probably a little high on Wang salary as well.

Funny how this goes Jacko...that I'm the one advocating keeping the younger players and not trading for Hawpe, and you're doing the opposite. Is the difference between Damon and Hawpe worth the cost in prospects? I don't believe so.

As for Dipre...again, close but no cigar. This is like a broken record. You try so hard....and fail. This seems to be a recurring theme both here and in personal life. You seem to agree that his cost is not worth his value, but you debate my point on his inability to hit the inside fastball in the NLDS.

See, in your desire to put in your two cents where they are not needed, you pointed out his hit chart. Kudos. What you failed to realize was I wasn't talking about the inside pitch, I was talking about the inside fastball. Did you know that the only homerun he hit was on a curveball? Did you know that of the 36 pitches he saw in the NLDS, 34 of them were inside fastballs? That his homerun came on a curveball? This kind of analysis is beyond your comprehension.

Again, the Yankees should avoid Holliday. If his price came down to the 10 million dollar deal, by all means get him. However, he will cost about 16 million a season for years, and this is cost prohibitive for the Yankees. It is simply not a good allocation of funds.

You could learn a thing or two, not only from me, but from your baseball better's, Jacko and 26. You took a marginal point and argued it [incorrectly], while agreeing with the big picture. A true exercise in futility.

My advice? Shut up, read, and you may learn something or two.

By keeping both, you advocate having absolutely abysmal defense in LF with a significant likelihood of regression offensively. I am cool with one of them as a DH.

[Dipre]

Hey Jacko.

You played baseball.

Would you be so kind as to explain how the fuck can a baseball player hit a cumulative .350 on the inside part of the plate if he can't hit inside fastballs?

[yankees228]

I don't want to bring back Matsui, because I think, starting next year, they should rotate A-Rod and Posada in the DH spot. They have eight more years of A-Rod, they have to do all they can to preserve him for as much of that time as possible. As for Posada, they have to try to keep him productive through 2011.

[Dipre]

I don't want to bring back Matsui, because I think, starting next year, they should rotate A-Rod and Posada in the DH spot. They have eight more years of A-Rod, they have to do all they can to preserve him for as much of that time as possible. As for Posada, they have to try to keep him productive through 2011.

What do you suggest then?

Holliday's not an option because he clearly can't hit the inside fastball, even though he hit a cumulative .341 on the inside part of the plate, and about 60% of those pitches were fastballs, he simply can't hit fastballs on the inner third of the plate, and the 36 pitches they threw at him in the playoffs is a clear indication of that.

[yankees228]

What do you suggest then?

Holliday's not an option because he clearly can't hit the inside fastball, even though he hit a cumulative .341 on the inside part of the plate, and about 60% of those pitches were fastballs, he simply can't hit fastballs on the inner third of the plate, and the 36 pitches they threw at him in the playoffs is a clear indication of that.

Haha, I would love Holliday, but, if I'm the Yankees, I make Lackey the priority.

[Dipre]

Haha, I would love Holliday, but, if I'm the Yankees, I make Lackey the priority.

Why would you love Holliday?

He can't hit inside fastballs. :(

[Spudboy]

What do you suggest then?

Holliday's not an option because he clearly can't hit the inside fastball, even though he hit a cumulative .341 on the inside part of the plate, and about 60% of those pitches were fastballs, he simply can't hit fastballs on the inner third of the plate, and the 36 pitches they threw at him in the playoffs is a clear indication of that.

lol

[Emmz]

Why would you love Holliday?

He can't hit inside fastballs. :(

You mean like how he was especially hot on the inside of the plate, and the fact that most pitches are fastballs, like you pointed out? Yeah, he definitely can't hit inside fastballs

[Dipre]

You mean like how he was especially hot on the inside of the plate, and the fact that most pitches are fastballs, like you pointed out? Yeah, he definitely can't hit inside fastballs

But Gom's right. 36 pitches in the playoffs obviously negates the 2,428 he saw during the regular season. He simply can't hit the inside fastball.

[Emmz]

Of course it does dude, I mean, the overwhelming bulk just doesn't fucking matter, how dare you say otherwise

[Gom]

My adivice?

Quit the bumbling stupidity.
Let's have fun here...and point out your stupidity.


Please tell me what's the most thrown pitch by pitchers?

Fastballs.


If he has a .330+ average in the inner part of the strike zone, how could he have it without hitting fastballs if fastballs are the bread and butter pitch of almost every pitcher in the Major Leagues?

Again, please use a bit of logic, and stop making shit up. Thanks.

Watch replays of the NLDS and tell me what you see. Where we they pitching him? What were they throwing?


And another thing, you really think you're smarter than scouts?

Apparently you do. As usual, you're wrong.

Taken from ESPN Insider:


"In the postseason, the question is whether they can hit an inside fastball," says a longtime scout. "If they can't, they're going to get pounded." In the division series against the Dodgers, Cardinals cleanup man Holliday got pounded, and maybe it was inevitable. After struggling early on with Oakland, he was traded to St. Louis in late July and wrecked National League pitching. Some American League scouts wondered why NL hurlers didn't pitch Holliday inside more.

The Dodgers advance scouts must have asked the same question, because from the very first inning of the NLDS, Joe Torre basically challenged Holliday to beat LA. Torre ordered an intentional walk to Albert Pujols, loading the bases and putting the onus on Holliday, who struck out looking on an inside fastball. Dodgers pitchers kept crowding Holliday with hard stuff: Of the 36 pitches he saw in the series, 34 were fastballs-yes, 34-and of those, 20 were thrown inside. Holliday had one extra-base hit in the NLDS, a home run on a curveball away."


Apparently I miscounted the number of inside fastballs...but the premise is 100% correct.

Stop embarrassing yourself. You're out of your league.

GAME OVER.

[Dipre]

Small Sample Size.

.341 cumulative average on the inside part of the plate. At least 60% of those pitches were fastballs.

The premise is stupid and so is the poster.


GAME OVER.

[Gom]

Small Sample Size.
Exposed. Completely. As he was in the AL.


.341 cumulative average on the inside part of the plate. At least 60% of those pitches were fastballs.

How do you know this? Do you know how many pitches he saw on the inside corner? Do you know how many were fastballs? You're guessing.


The premise is stupid and so is the poster.

In this particular post, yes.

So you're smarter than the advance Dodger scouts who, by the way, by their work, completely shut down Holliday? I see your logic.

Keep trying, one day, you might get somewhere.

[Dipre]

36 pitches > 2428 pitches according to Gom.

That is all.

[Gom]

Dipre > Dodgers advance scouts.

Dude...you keep sinking...and sinking....

[Dipre]

Dipre > Dodgers advance scouts.

Dude...you keep sinking...and sinking....

Gom> Logic.

Who's sinking. :lol:

[example1]

This is stupid.

The common rap on Holliday is that he can be beat by fastballs on the inside part of the plate.

To whatever degree that's true it didn't keep him from being able to be very productive this year. Whether good pitchers are able to take advantage of it or not is another question, but the playoff sample is too small to be certain about it.

I mean, he did only hit .136/.296/.318/.614 in 27 PAs in that one playoff round. That's pretty bad, so obviously he was being exploited.

Oh, wait, that's actually Mark Teixeira in the World Series.

Holliday hit .167/.231/.417/.647 in his 13 PAs. That's pretty bad, but it alone is not enough to tell me that a career .313 avg/.933 OPS hitter can't hit inside fastballs. That's silly. If they're exploiting something he will adjust. If an inside FB was enough to beat Holliday he wouldn't have had the career he's had.

I also find it interesting to read Gom saying he's probably too expensive. What does this mean, to a Yankee fan? His $$/WARP is too low?

[Gom]

Gom> Logic.

Who's sinking. :lol:
Ok, you win. It's so obvious your logic supercedes mine.

I mean, Holliday hit .341 on inside fastballs?

WHAT WERE THE DODGERS THINKING? HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY PITCH HIM INSIDE WITH FASTBALLS? HE'D MURDER THEM!!! FIRE ALL THEIR SCOUTS AND HIRE DIPRE!!!!!

Oh...wait....

This is stupid.

The common rap on Holliday is that he can be beat by fastballs on the inside part of the plate.

Sssh...Don't tell Dipre. He's packing his things, thinking the Dodgers will give him a visa to come work for them.


To whatever degree that's true it didn't keep him from being able to be very productive this year. Whether good pitchers are able to take advantage of it or not is another question, but the playoff sample is too small to be certain about it.

I was really interested in watching him since I thought he was a great addition, regardless of the money. After seeing him, I changed my mind. It's like Soriano. An amazing hitter against mediocre pitchers, but against guys who can locate? Lost.


Holliday hit .167/.231/.417/.647 in his 13 PAs. That's pretty bad, but it alone is not enough to tell me that a career .313 avg/.933 OPS hitter can't hit inside fastballs. That's silly. If they're exploiting something he will adjust. If an inside FB was enough to beat Holliday he wouldn't have had the career he's had.

Good players adjust. Agreed. See Dipre? This is how you make a point. Maybe because English isn't your first language?

Anyways, 150 million or so for a player who built a career out of Coors and the National League and couldn't hit a lick in the AL and from what I saw, couldn't turn on an inside fastball? I'll pass.


I also find it interesting to read Gom saying he's probably too expensive. What does this mean, to a Yankee fan? His $$/WARP is too low?
It means he isn't going to be worth the money he's asking for, relatively speaking. Why did the Yankees win this year? As you mentioned, Tex was shit at the plate. They won because they had the best pitching in baseball. Throwing that much money at a hitter who is not without serious flaws IMO is a waste. Allocate that money towards short term deals with older players and wait for a good young player, like a Crawford becomes a free agent. Tie up pitching so that next year we can go with a four man rotation instead of a three man one.

[Dipre]

This is stupid.

The common rap on Holliday is that he can be beat by fastballs on the inside part of the plate.

To whatever degree that's true it didn't keep him from being able to be very productive this year. Whether good pitchers are able to take advantage of it or not is another question, but the playoff sample is too small to be certain about it.

I mean, he did only hit .136/.296/.318/.614 in 27 PAs in that one playoff round. That's pretty bad, so obviously he was being exploited.

Oh, wait, that's actually Mark Teixeira in the World Series.

Holliday hit .167/.231/.417/.647 in his 13 PAs. That's pretty bad, but it alone is not enough to tell me that a career .313 avg/.933 OPS hitter can't hit inside fastballs. That's silly. If they're exploiting something he will adjust. If an inside FB was enough to beat Holliday he wouldn't have had the career he's had.

I also find it interesting to read Gom saying he's probably too expensive. What does this mean, to a Yankee fan? His $$/WARP is too low?

Again, he hit a .341 cumulative batting average on the inside part of the plate, if you face mostly RH pitchers, they mostly don't throw breaking stuff inside to RH hitters, so logic tells you , it's mostly fastballs.

[Dipre]

The common rap on Holliday is that he can be beat by fastballs on the inside part of the plate.

To whatever degree that's true it didn't keep him from being able to be very productive this year. Whether good pitchers are able to take advantage of it or not is another question, but the playoff sample is too small to be certain about it.

I mean, he did only hit .136/.296/.318/.614 in 27 PAs in that one playoff round. That's pretty bad, so obviously he was being exploited.

Oh, wait, that's actually Mark Teixeira in the World Series.

Holliday hit .167/.231/.417/.647 in his 13 PAs. That's pretty bad, but it alone is not enough to tell me that a career .313 avg/.933 OPS hitter can't hit inside fastballs. That's silly. If they're exploiting something he will adjust. If an inside FB was enough to beat Holliday he wouldn't have had the career he's had.

I also find it interesting to read Gom saying he's probably too expensive. What does this mean, to a Yankee fan? His $$/WARP is too low?


Again, he hit a .341 cumulative batting average on the inside part of the plate, if you face mostly RH pitchers, they mostly don't throw breaking stuff inside to RH hitters, so logic tells you , it's mostly fastballs.

[Gom]

And the year before, he was terrible on the inside part of the plate, relative to how he did otherwise.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/scoutingreports/rockies/holliday/

Go read Example1's post. The book on Holliday is beat him inside with fastballs.

So you got me, Example1 and the advance scouts for the Dodgers. As well as the Dodger pitchers who shut him down by throwing ONE PITCH.

They didn't mix it up and throw curves, or sliders, or changeups. They threw 34 of 36 pitches as FASTBALLS!

I know you can't afford to watch the games down there, but I saw every pitch this guy saw in the NLDS. It was a fucking broken record. He saw only two pitches in three games that weren't fastballs. He hit one of them for a homer. That was it. He did nothing else.

You really should pick your arguments more carefully. You've yet to win one against me.

[Dipre]

And the year before, he was terrible on the inside part of the plate, relative to how he did otherwise.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/scoutingreports/rockies/holliday/

Go read Example1's post. The book on Holliday is beat him inside with fastballs.

So you got me, Example1 and the advance scouts for the Dodgers. As well as the Dodger pitchers who shut him down by throwing ONE PITCH.

They didn't mix it up and throw curves, or sliders, or changeups. They threw 34 of 36 pitches as FASTBALLS!

I know you can't afford to watch the games down there, but I saw every pitch this guy saw in the NLDS. It was a fucking broken record. He saw only two pitches in three games that weren't fastballs. He hit one of them for a homer. That was it. He did nothing else.

You really should pick your arguments more carefully. You've yet to win one against me.

Using "The year before".

This year he hit .341. THIS YEAR.

The white flag has been raised.

And the fact that you don't concede when you lose in an argument doesn't mean you didn't lose it. :lol:

[Dipre]

This is stupid.

The common rap on Holliday is that he can be beat by fastballs on the inside part of the plate.

To whatever degree that's true it didn't keep him from being able to be very productive this year. Whether good pitchers are able to take advantage of it or not is another question, but the playoff sample is too small to be certain about it.

Holliday hit .167/.231/.417/.647 in his 13 PAs. That's pretty bad, but it alone is not enough to tell me that a career .313 avg/.933 OPS hitter can't hit inside fastballs. That's silly. If they're exploiting something he will adjust. If an inside FB was enough to beat Holliday he wouldn't have had the career he's had.



All of this was conveniently ignored by Gom. :lol::lol:

[Gom]

So explain to me genius? If he murders the inside fastball....

Why did they pitch him just fastballs...and two thirds of all the pitches he saw were inside fastballs....and he shit the bed?

Every scouting report I read on this guy said he had trouble with the inside fastball and that he murders breaking pitches.

Of course, you know everything.

By the way, it's not whether I win an argument or not. It's the fact you're too retarded to realize that you don't.

You are assuming that he got pitched evenly...at an even dispersion...and all the pitches are the same with a percentage that you arbitrarily choose.

I repeat...I SAW....36 pitches. 34 fastballs. 20 inside [I'll assume ESPN was correct, I deleted the games from my DVR]. One extra base hit...off of a curveball.

Until you can explain how me, example1 and advance dodger scouts all see one thing, and you see another, pour yourself a nice, frosty mug of shut the fuck up.

[Dipre]

So explain to me genius? If he murders the inside fastball....

Why did they pitch him just fastballs...and two thirds of all the pitches he saw were inside fastballs....and he shit the bed?

Every scouting report I read on this guy said he had trouble with the inside fastball and that he murders breaking pitches.

Of course, you know everything.

By the way, it's not whether I win an argument or not. It's the fact you're too retarded to realize that you don't.

You are assuming that he got pitched evenly...at an even dispersion...and all the pitches are the same with a percentage that you arbitrarily choose.

I repeat...I SAW....36 pitches. 34 fastballs. 20 inside [I'll assume ESPN was correct, I deleted the games from my DVR]. One extra base hit...off of a curveball.

Until you can explain how me, example1 and advance dodger scouts all see one thing, and you see another, pour yourself a nice, frosty mug of shut the fuck up.

Left handed-pitchers, (Kershaw, Wolf,Kuo, Sherrill) usually throw the heat inside to RHH due to handedness.

For someone who claims to know so much about baseball, you sure don't know a lot about pitch selection.

For that matter, Kershaw also pitched Pujols inside a lot during game two. I guess he can't hit the inside fastball either amirite?

[Lester82]

it'll be hilarious if Boras successfully delivers Holliday to the Yankees and Gom has to like his new left fielder...

[Lester82]

I agree completely on Lackey. He is the exact kind of player we need

Can your team actually develop a legit starting pitcher without having to buy one?

Sabathia/ Burnett/ and maybe.... Lackey.

God, you simply haven't developed a consistent starter since Andy Pettitte.



Wang was a flameout. The team has screwed around Chamberlin with these retarded Joba Rules I, II, III and we still have no idea if Phil Hughes will truely be a quality starter.

[bsox0407]

About holliday. Because Holliday, in Gom's eyes, didn't hit well in one series, he shouldn't be signed. So were you against the new contract of A-rod, who before this year hadn't hit in the playoffs since '04. Do you want he Yankees to trade away Tex because he sucked in the WS this year.

Gom give up, your argument is stupid. Because he did bad against 36 pitches he shouldn't be signed is prolly the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Heard of a Slump. Every hitter has their weak spots. But Dipre's evidence of his .341 BA in the inside part of the plate.

You and Holliday are very similar. You both dropped fly balls in the Playoffs.

[Gom]

You and Holliday are very similar. You both dropped fly balls in the Playoffs.
Awesome.

[bsox0407]

Awesome.

i found the real reason you hate him. :lol::lol:

[Emmz]

No, Gom's balls never dropped bsox, you must be confusing him with someone else

[Gom]

No, Gom's balls never dropped bsox, you must be confusing him with someone else

You seem to be infatuated with my balls. I wonder why?

[Emmz]

So explain to me genius? If he murders the inside fastball....

Why did they pitch him just fastballs...and two thirds of all the pitches he saw were inside fastballs....and he shit the bed?

Every scouting report I read on this guy said he had trouble with the inside fastball and that he murders breaking pitches.

Of course, you know everything.

By the way, it's not whether I win an argument or not. It's the fact you're too retarded to realize that you don't.

You are assuming that he got pitched evenly...at an even dispersion...and all the pitches are the same with a percentage that you arbitrarily choose.

I repeat...I SAW....36 pitches. 34 fastballs. 20 inside [I'll assume ESPN was correct, I deleted the games from my DVR]. One extra base hit...off of a curveball.

Until you can explain how me, example1 and advance dodger scouts all see one thing, and you see another, pour yourself a nice, frosty mug of shut the fuck up.

Holy shit Gom, you really are a little sensitive today. Anywho, what's not to get? He kills inside pitches. Most pitches are fastballs. Of he struggled a whole lot against that inside fastball, then why does he kill inside pitches so much? Its really not rocket science.

[example1]

I was really interested in watching him since I thought he was a great addition, regardless of the money. After seeing him, I changed my mind. It's like Soriano. An amazing hitter against mediocre pitchers, but against guys who can locate? Lost.

I hope your logic holds and the Red Sox can be the ceiling setters in negotiations.



Anyways, 150 million or so for a player who built a career out of Coors and the National League and couldn't hit a lick in the AL and from what I saw, couldn't turn on an inside fastball? I'll pass.


.299/.400/.480/.880, 10 HR, 12 SB

Those are Matt Holliday's numbers for the final 75 of the 93 games he played in Oakland. That's May, June and July. He is being held responsible for getting off to a slow start in his first 18 games in a new city, in a new league, in the early spring. Honestly, I'm all for that theory to take on a life of it's own, because I hope it will devalue him.



It means he isn't going to be worth the money he's asking for, relatively speaking. Why did the Yankees win this year? As you mentioned, Tex was shit at the plate. They won because they had the best pitching in baseball. Throwing that much money at a hitter who is not without serious flaws IMO is a waste. Allocate that money towards short term deals with older players and wait for a good young player, like a Crawford becomes a free agent. Tie up pitching so that next year we can go with a four man rotation instead of a three man one.

Teixeira is still a good enough player to be a threat every time he's at the plate. I used him because I think he's obviously a great player, so if his numbers look poor it is likely just a phase. Holliday having a monster second half and then getting completely shut down by a mediocre Dodger's pitching staff? Sounds fishy. Roughly as fishy as believing that Teixeira is overmatched against good pitching. Anyone can be overmatched, but good players adjust.

[TheMino007]

Seeing as the Yankees are currently the best team in baseball, I hate to say the fact that they can actually get better. They are gonna get Bay/Holliday to play LF. I don't think Damon and Matsui will both be back its one or the other. There are too many DH candidates on this team, Damon, Matsui, even Posada is starting to break down behind the plate and would be better served just hitting. Yanks could use another catcher. Of course another starter and leave Joba and Hughes in the pen

[TedWilliams101]

I think a very fair question to ask is, if the inside fastball is his weakness, is his seemingly great ability to hit off-speed pitches enough to over come the weakness? To hit .329 on fastballs when facing fastballs 63.7% of the time (fangraphs) seems to suggest he can hit the pitch. The question is just how does he fare on the inside pitch? Is it only when he gets in a rut that he can't hit it? Is it for really hard stuff (95 mph+) on the black? Does he chase inside? If it's power pitching, then it shouldn't be that much of a problem since very very few pitchers can power-pitch inside effectively.

I must admit that seeing a low runs above average value on fastballs/100 (1.2, fangraphs) does raise some questions. Most sluggers have much higher values (Bay is 1.7, Teix is 1.82, Pujols 2.74, Arod 2.2, Youk 1.51, etc). However, his offspeed pitch values are above average (2.47 Slider, 1.48 cutter, 1.02 Curve, 2.67 Chgup, 2.49 splitter).

If he can hit fastballs well enough (which he can, maybe not as well as we might want out of slugger, though), he should still be able to see a good deal of offspeed pitches. So long as that happens, he should be fine. Honestly, the only guys I really see him struggling against in the AL East would be CC, maybe Burnett, maybe Pettitte, and Halladay. Then again, you could say that about any hitter.

[Gom]

I think a very fair question to ask is, if the inside fastball is his weakness, is his seemingly great ability to hit off-speed pitches enough to over come the weakness? To hit .329 on fastballs when facing fastballs 63.7% of the time (fangraphs) seems to suggest he can hit the pitch. The question is just how does he fare on the inside pitch? Is it only when he gets in a rut that he can't hit it? Is it for really hard stuff (95 mph+) on the black? Does he chase inside? If it's power pitching, then it shouldn't be that much of a problem since very very few pitchers can power-pitch inside effectively.

I must admit that seeing a low runs above average value on fastballs/100 (1.2, fangraphs) does raise some questions. Most sluggers have much higher values (Bay is 1.7, Teix is 1.82, Pujols 2.74, Arod 2.2, Youk 1.51, etc). However, his offspeed pitch values are above average (2.47 Slider, 1.48 cutter, 1.02 Curve, 2.67 Chgup, 2.49 splitter).

If he can hit fastballs well enough (which he can, maybe not as well as we might want out of slugger, though), he should still be able to see a good deal of offspeed pitches. So long as that happens, he should be fine. Honestly, the only guys I really see him struggling against in the AL East would be CC, maybe Burnett, maybe Pettitte, and Halladay. Then again, you could say that about any hitter.

Bingo.

See Dipre? This is what happens when you get a worthwhile education.

End result is he will not be worth the money he is asking for. Not only did you attempt to hijack the thread, but you did so while getting your ass handed to you.

I'd be interested to see one of you guys [at least one of you guys that understands baseball] make a thread of how to fix the Sox. Would be interesting.

[Lester82]

I'd be interested to see one of you guys [at least one of you guys that understands baseball] make a thread of how to fix the Sox. Would be interesting.

We'll need a thread next year on how to fix the Yankees beyond their top two starters.

Or maybe Joe Girardi can go with a 2-man rotation in next year's postseason.



LOL. . . .

[Gom]

Pettitte is coming back. He pretty much said so on Letterman.


Letterman peppered all the players with questions about how long they wanted to stick around. "I'm close, I'm getting close," Pettitte said. "If I pitch one more, you know, that would probably be good. "

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2009/11/06/2009-11-06_racking_up_hits_to_the_funnybone_with_dave.html #ixzz0WACkrmT0

[Dipre]

I think a very fair question to ask is, if the inside fastball is his weakness, is his seemingly great ability to hit off-speed pitches enough to over come the weakness? To hit .329 on fastballs when facing fastballs 63.7% of the time (fangraphs) seems to suggest he can hit the pitch. The question is just how does he fare on the inside pitch? Is it only when he gets in a rut that he can't hit it? Is it for really hard stuff (95 mph+) on the black? Does he chase inside? If it's power pitching, then it shouldn't be that much of a problem since very very few pitchers can power-pitch inside effectively.

I must admit that seeing a low runs above average value on fastballs/100 (1.2, fangraphs) does raise some questions. Most sluggers have much higher values (Bay is 1.7, Teix is 1.82, Pujols 2.74, Arod 2.2, Youk 1.51, etc). However, his offspeed pitch values are above average (2.47 Slider, 1.48 cutter, 1.02 Curve, 2.67 Chgup, 2.49 splitter).

If he can hit fastballs well enough (which he can, maybe not as well as we might want out of slugger, though), he should still be able to see a good deal of offspeed pitches. So long as that happens, he should be fine. Honestly, the only guys I really see him struggling against in the AL East would be CC, maybe Burnett, maybe Pettitte, and Halladay. Then again, you could say that about any hitter.

This is about fastballs in every part of the plate. He saw 61% fastballs last years, and if you know anything about pitch selection, you'll know that righties usually don't throw inside breaking stuff to righties, and lefties usually throw inside fastballs to lefties due to handedness. So you could easily make a case for the fact that more than 70% of the pitches that Holliday saw in the inside of the plate were fastballs. If he hit a cumulative .341 against them. Explain to me how can't he hit the inside fastball again?

You also didn't take time to check out partial splits.

He was miserable in Oakland with the null lineup and huge stadium.

However, the figure jumps to 2.45 while with the Cardinals.

Another thing, do you know how batting runs above average works?

By the premise of the formula, Holliday was actually 1.2 runs above average.


Bingo.

See Dipre? This is what happens when you get a worthwhile education.

End result is he will not be worth the money he is asking for. Not only did you attempt to hijack the thread, but you did so while getting your ass handed to you.

I'd be interested to see one of you guys [at least one of you guys that understands baseball] make a thread of how to fix the Sox. Would be interesting.

I try to explain it to TW101, because, unlike you, he might probably understand the argument about pitch selection instead of using a 36 pitch sample size and using silly fabrications like you.

[Gom]

This is about fastballs in every part of the plate. He saw 61% fastballs last years, and if you know anything about pitch selection, you'll know that righties usually don't throw inside breaking stuff to righties, and lefties usually throw inside fastballs to lefties due to handedness. So you could easily make a case for the fact that more than 70% of the pitches that Holliday saw in the inside of the plate were fastballs. If he hit a cumulative .341 against them. Explain to me how can't he hit the inside fastball again?

You also didn't take time to check out partial splits.

He was miserable in Oakland with the null lineup and huge stadium.

However, the figure jumps to 2.45 while with the Cardinals.

Another thing, do you know how batting runs above average works?

By the premise of the formula, Holliday was actually 1.2 runs above average.



I try to explain it to TW101, because, unlike you, he might probably understand the argument about pitch selection instead of using a 36 pitch sample size and using silly fabrications like you.

No, I get it. You're smarter than everyone, including those that handcuffed Holliday.

This is great...according to YOUR numbers, he has a 1.2 runs above average. Is this worth 16+ million a year for 6-8 years?

No. Hence, my reasoning for not signing him long-term is strengthened by you.

Seeing how you debate points here...have you ever won a case? No wonder why you have trouble finding work.

It's like Cano. He will put up good numbers during the season. However, when facing elite pitchers in the post-season, he will be lost.

Here is Cano's hot zone:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerHotZone?categoryId=288285

You know what they did? I know you watched the Yankee games. The pitched him outside ALL the time in the playoffs. He expanded the zone, and was useless. Of course, according to your logic, they should have pitched him inside all day. Run along Dipre...this analysis is beyond you.

Personally...I PRAY the Red Sox sign him to a long term deal. Wouldn't that make you happy? The sad truth...as much as I differ with Jacko....he's got something you don't.

Baseball intelligence.

Thanks for proving my point. 1.2 runs above average for 16 million per? Pass.

This wasn't even fun. It was abuse.

[TedWilliams101]

Well, I don't think there is really anything conclusive on Holliday in regards to his abilities with fastballs on the inner half. While his runs batted in per 100 fastballs is 1.2 runs above average (career), it certainly isn't elite. Just about all of the top hitters in baseball produce more runs (2.0+, career) on fastballs. However, I did also note the fact that he is one of the best offspeed hitters, as his runs batted in per 100 offspeed pitches are much higher than the average power hitter. It balances out a "lack" of production on fastballs.

The real question, as I posted earlier, is if this supposed fastball weakness exists and is exploitable. He will be a great hitter as long as he sees breaking pitches. If the AL just pounds fastballs inside against him, he might be in trouble if he can't adjust. I haven't been able to find split stats for fastballs on the inner part of the plate and until I do, I don't think I can say anything conclusive. I'd have to fall back on what he has done in his career.

I think using this past playoff series as the defining moment of Holliday's career is a big mistake. It certainly raises serious questions, but until we can get our hands on more data, I think it should be treated just the same as any 3 game stretch. It's just too small a sample size.

I also think he could very well end up seeing MORE offspeed pitches in the AL than he did in the NL. The NL has been more of a fastball league than the AL. It certainly isn't completely conclusive, but I took a look at a ton of AL East hitters who have played in the NL before and they all have seen a lower percentage of fastballs in the AL. It is a slight decrease (generally just a few percentage points), but a decrease non-the-less.

[Dipre]

No, I get it. You're smarter than everyone, including those that handcuffed Holliday.

This is great...according to YOUR numbers, he has a 1.2 runs above average. Is this worth 16+ million a year for 6-8 years?

No. Hence, my reasoning for not signing him long-term is strengthened by you.

Seeing how you debate points here...have you ever won a case? No wonder why you have trouble finding work.

It's like Cano. He will put up good numbers during the season. However, when facing elite pitchers in the post-season, he will be lost.

Here is Cano's hot zone:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerHotZone?categoryId=288285

You know what they did? I know you watched the Yankee games. The pitched him outside ALL the time in the playoffs. He expanded the zone, and was useless. Of course, according to your logic, they should have pitched him inside all day. Run along Dipre...this analysis is beyond you.

Personally...I PRAY the Red Sox sign him to a long term deal. Wouldn't that make you happy? The sad truth...as much as I differ with Jacko....he's got something you don't.

Baseball intelligence.

Thanks for proving my point. 1.2 runs above average for 16 million per? Pass.

This wasn't even fun. It was abuse.

*Yawn*

Fabrications.

Running away from logic.

Making shit up.

The Gom special.

900+ OPS, .393 OBP, and .341 BA on pitches over the inside of the plate. The stats say one thing, Gom's fabrications say another, who do i believe?

Hmmmm.........stats all the way!, i love how you're handing my ass to me by resorting to make shit up and using a 36 pitch sample size.


Also: LOL at using Cano as a benchmark. If you had "Baseball intelligence" you'd know Holliday has something Cano doesn't: Plate discipline.

Ahhhhhh......the benefits of a good education.

[Dipre]

Well, I don't think there is really anything conclusive on Holliday in regards to his abilities with fastballs on the inner half. While his runs batted in per 100 fastballs is 1.2 runs above average (career), it certainly isn't elite. Just about all of the top hitters in baseball produce more runs (2.0+, career) on fastballs. However, I did also note the fact that he is one of the best offspeed hitters, as his runs batted in per 100 offspeed pitches are much higher than the average power hitter. It balances out a "lack" of production on fastballs.

The real question, as I posted earlier, is if this supposed fastball weakness exists and is exploitable. He will be a great hitter as long as he sees breaking pitches. If the AL just pounds fastballs inside against him, he might be in trouble if he can't adjust. I haven't been able to find split stats for fastballs on the inner part of the plate and until I do, I don't think I can say anything conclusive. I'd have to fall back on what he has done in his career.

I think using this past playoff series as the defining moment of Holliday's career is a big mistake. It certainly raises serious questions, but until we can get our hands on more data, I think it should be treated just the same as any 3 game stretch. It's just too small a sample size.

I also think he could very well end up seeing MORE offspeed pitches in the AL than he did in the NL. The NL has been more of a fastball league than the AL. It certainly isn't completely conclusive, but I took a look at a ton of AL East hitters who have played in the NL before and they all have seen a lower percentage of fastballs in the AL. It is a slight decrease (generally just a few percentage points), but a decrease non-the-less.

So his 2.45 RC/FB is not to be taken into account?

[Gom]

900+ OPS, .393 OBP, and .341 BA on pitches over the inside of the plate. The stats say one thing, Gom's fabrications say another, who do i believe?

You really don't know when to quit do you?

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.


Hmmmm.........stats all the way!, i love how you're handing my ass to me by resorting to make shit up and using a 36 pitch sample size.
Again...
Exactly what am I making up? If you want to argue small sample size, that's relevant. I place a lot more relevance on how he did in the post-season than you do. It was my first time really watching him, and I didn't see anything I liked. It's differenct if they were mixing things up...they did the same thing, over and over and over again. He was useless...

Again...

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Also: LOL at using Cano as a benchmark. If you had "Baseball intelligence" you'd know Holliday has something Cano doesn't: Plate discipline.

Ahhhhhh......the benefits of a good education.[/QUOTE]
Again...

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Top notch school you went there dude...it's obvious.

Have you noticed that NO ONE sided with you except for your internet girlfriend Emmz...that in it's own should tell you something.

Keep on trying dude. One day, you'll get there. Just not with me.

It's ok. I commend you for trying.

Just in case you forgot...here you go again:

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Now...the whole thread was how the Yankees should avoid signing him. We both have holes in Left Field. Would you sign him for 16+ million for 6 years or so for the Red Sox? If not...well, thanks for not only the strawman...but one that was incorrect to top it off.

This was easier than the Yankees pitching to Ryan Howard.

Oh...by the way...

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

[Dipre]

You really don't know when to quit do you?

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Again...

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Also: LOL at using Cano as a benchmark. If you had "Baseball intelligence" you'd know Holliday has something Cano doesn't: Plate discipline.

Ahhhhhh......the benefits of a good education.
Again...


Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Have you noticed that NO ONE sided with you except for Emmz...that in it's own should tell you something.

Keep on trying dude. One day, you'll get there. Just not with me.

It's ok. I commend you for trying.

Just in case you forgot...here you go again:

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

Now...the whole thread was how the Yankees should avoid signing him. We both have holes in Left Field. Would you sign him for 16+ million for 6 years or so for the Red Sox? If not...well, thanks for not only the strawman...but one that was incorrect to top it off.

This was easier than the Yankees pitching to Ryan Howard.

Oh...by the way...

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

"Dodgers advanced scouts" were obviously not referring to 2009. A year (this year) in which he crushed inside pitches to the tune of a .341 batting average. You can say whatever you want, fabricate whatever you want. But the truth remains:

156 games>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>36 pitches.

[bsox0407]

Have you noticed that NO ONE sided with you except for your internet girlfriend Emmz...that in it's own should tell you something.


Hey guess what i side with him. you can't rate a player's ability on 36 pitches. According to your stupid logic. A-rod before this year and since 2004 should be the worst player on earth since he hit like shit in the playoffs and Tex should be fired for not hitting well in the WS. Give up you lost. Dipre is right.

[Dipre]

It's also hilarious how you keep using personal attacks as a substitute for actual data and logical thinking. Nice try though.

[Dipre]

Hey guess what i side with him. you can't rate a player's ability on 36 pitches. According to your stupid logic. A-rod before this year and since 2004 should be the worst player on earth since he hit like shit in the playoffs and Tex should be fired for not hitting well in the WS. Give up you lost. Dipre is right.

:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o

Holy shit.

I was about to post this!

Well done kid!

[Gom]

Again...



"Dodgers advanced scouts" were obviously not referring to 2009. A year (this year) in which he crushed inside pitches to the tune of a .341 batting average. You can say whatever you want, fabricate whatever you want. But the truth remains:

156 games>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>36 pitches.

How did you get to .341?

Did you average out all three? If you did, it's useless. This assumes he sees the same pitches in the same relative frequency, the same amount of times. Nice way of using stats to fabricate things.

What were his numbers in the AL? Does your hot zone show how he did in the NL and the AL?

Oh...by the way, I noticed you didn't answer my question.

Would you sign him for the Red Sox for 16 million per for say...6 years?

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

I put more emphasis on how he did in the post-season than you do. To me, that matters more.

Would you rather face Cano or Matsui with the game on the line? How about Jeter or Holliday?

I rest my case.

[Dipre]

How did you get to .341?

Did you average out all three? Useless.

What were his numbers in the AL? Does your hot zone show how he did in the NL and the AL?

Oh...by the way, I noticed you didn't answer my question.

Would you sign him for the Red Sox for 16 million per for say...6 years?

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

I put more emphasis on how he did in the post-season than you do. To me, that matters more.

Would you rather face Cano or Matsui with the game on the line? How about Jeter or Holliday?

I rest my case.

I love how the argument has shifted to "He can't hit in the AL!!!!!!!11!!!" stick to your guns, champ.

You said he can't hit the inside fastball, the AL argument is a different beast altogether.

[bsox0407]

How did you get to .341?

Did you average out all three? Useless.

What were his numbers in the AL? Does your hot zone show how he did in the NL and the AL?

Oh...by the way, I noticed you didn't answer my question.

Would you sign him for the Red Sox for 16 million per for say...6 years?

Dodgers advance scouts. NLDS stats. ESPN article that backed up what I said. 34 fastballs out of 36 total pitches. Only extra-base hit? On one of the two non-fastballs he saw.

I put more emphasis on how he did in the post-season than you do. To me, that matters more.

Would you rather face Cano or Matsui with the game on the line? How about Jeter or Holliday?

I rest my case.

This sounds like you repeated your retarded logic. Plus if actually took the time to read this thread you would see where he got the .341 avg. you just got to pissed off because you were wrong that you had selective reading. and just didn't read anything correctly.

[bsox0407]

I love how the argument has shifted to "He can't hit in the AL!!!!!!!11!!!" stick to your guns, champ.

You said he can't hit the inside fastball, the AL argument is a different beast altogether.

agreed a backtracker. he knows he is wrong but just can't give you the joy of kicking his ball dropping ass.

[Gom]

Hey guess what i side with him. you can't rate a player's ability on 36 pitches. According to your stupid logic. A-rod before this year and since 2004 should be the worst player on earth since he hit like shit in the playoffs and Tex should be fired for not hitting well in the WS. Give up you lost. Dipre is right.

Had you looked at Arod's career in the post-season? Going into this year, his post-season OPS mirrored his real life OPS. This was BEFORE this monster off-season.

Tex had a bad off-season, and a decent one last year. I never liked Tex's swing. I think he uppercuts the ball too much, and have you ever really seen an elite hitter when they employ the shift? I haven't. [Of course, I never saw Ted Williams play].

Holliday has trouble with the inside fastball. That's why signing him to a long term deal is a bad idea. His problems with that pitch will simply increase with time.

[Gom]

agreed a backtracker. he knows he is wrong but just can't give you the joy of kicking his ball dropping ass.

I did drop Utley's ball, this is true. It sucks to drop a ball in the World Series. Have you ever seen a World Series game live?

[Dipre]

Had you looked at Arod's career in the post-season? Going into this year, his post-season OPS mirrored his real life OPS. This was BEFORE this monster off-season.

Tex had a bad off-season, and a decent one last year. I never liked Tex's swing. I think he uppercuts the ball too much, and have you ever really seen an elite hitter when they employ the shift? I haven't. [Of course, I never saw Ted Williams play].

Holliday has trouble with the inside fastball. That's why signing him to a long term deal is a bad idea. His problems with that pitch will simply increase with time.

Prove it.

That's the one thing you haven't done. Repeating a fallacy over and over and over doesn't make it true.

That was shown to me by a good, worthwhile education.

[bsox0407]

Tex had a bad off-season, and a decent one last year. I never liked Tex's swing. I think he uppercuts the ball too much, and have you ever really seen an elite hitter when they employ the shift? I haven't. [Of course, I never saw Ted Williams play].

Holliday has trouble with the inside fastball. That's why signing him to a long term deal is a bad idea. His problems with that pitch will simply increase with time.

How do you not know then that Holliday had just one bad playoff series. How do you know that holliday won't be in the playoffs next year and hit like Tex did in Anaheim. Just admit it your logic is the stupidest on this board and prolly the history of the world.



I did drop Utley's ball, this is true. It sucks to drop a ball in the World Series. Have you ever seen a World Series game live?

Not all of can drop that amt of money on a ticket. Plus in fenway you have to show up to the stadium to get some tickets to the games or call. i tried to call the Giants a few years back and the Sox game was sold out in 10 minutes now the WS that is a totally different. story.

[TedWilliams101]

Guys guys guys, lets just stick with the facts and stats. Scouting reports are great and all, but they don't really mean anything if the actual stats seem to contradict the report.

This IS the way it is. This scouting report that keeps getting mentioned doesn't prove that Holliday has a hole in his swing, neither does it even say that. The scouting report simply gives the best approach to get Holliday out. He has the most trouble on inside fastballs, however, THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE CAN'T HIT THEM! It simply is the most effective approach to pitch against him. In fact, going hard inside (especially up) is going to be the most effective pitching approach against most hitters because it is one of the hardest pitches to hit. Again though, that doesn't mean he can't hit them.

Just look at the facts. I simply can't believe that, if he had a huge hole in his swing and couldn't hit a inside fastball, he would have been able to sustain such a high level of success for 6 years in the majors. It just doesn't make any sense.

Right now there just isn't much substance to the theory (because that is what this is) that he can't hit isn't fastballs. All there is to support the theory is this scouting report and 3 games. You can make Albert freaken Pujols look like he has a hole in his swing with a 3-game sample size and scouting report

[TedWilliams101]

Had you looked at Arod's career in the post-season? Going into this year, his post-season OPS mirrored his real life OPS. This was BEFORE this monster off-season.

Tex had a bad off-season, and a decent one last year. I never liked Tex's swing. I think he uppercuts the ball too much, and have you ever really seen an elite hitter when they employ the shift? I haven't. [Of course, I never saw Ted Williams play].

Holliday has trouble with the inside fastball. That's why signing him to a long term deal is a bad idea. His problems with that pitch will simply increase with time.

How will his "problem" with that pitch increase in time? He has been in the league for 6 years now and it certainly doesn't look like he has a problem with the pitch. In fact the 2 years he saw the highest percentage of fastballs happen to be 2 of his best years (07/08). You're argument doesn't make sense. I've never of of a career .313/.879 hitter who can't handle an inside fastball. On top of that, AL hitters don't see as many Fastballs as NL hitters. Don't think it's true? Go check out fan graphs. I looked at all of the AL East hitters who have at one time been in the NL and every single one of them sees a lower percentage of fastballs in the AL East.

[Dipre]

Guys guys guys, lets just stick with the facts and stats. Scouting reports are great and all, but they don't really mean anything if the actual stats seem to contradict the report.

This IS the way it is. This scouting report that keeps getting mentioned doesn't prove that Holliday has a hole in his swing, neither does it even say that. The scouting report simply gives the best approach to get Holliday out. He has the most trouble on inside fastballs, however, THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE CAN'T HIT THEM! It simply is the most effective approach to pitch against him. In fact, going hard inside (especially up) is going to be the most effective pitching approach against most hitters because it is one of the hardest pitches to hit. Again though, that doesn't mean he can't hit them.

Just look at the facts. I simply can't believe that, if he had a huge hole in his swing and couldn't hit a inside fastball, he would have been able to sustain such a high level of success for 6 years in the majors. It just doesn't make any sense.

Right now there just isn't much substance to the theory (because that is what this is) that he can't hit isn't fastballs. All there is to support the theory is this scouting report and 3 games. You can make Albert freaken Pujols look like he has a hole in his swing with a 3-game sample size and scouting report

Well that's what i've been trying to tell Gom all along. But he just won't listen.

[bsox0407]

Well that's what i've been trying to tell Gom all along. But he just won't listen.

in one EYE out the other. lol Gom that is. not you Dipre. i completely agree with you.

[TedWilliams101]

Well that's what i've been trying to tell Gom all along. But he just won't listen.

Yeah, I had this problem on another (non-baseball) forum. They were saying ludicrous things about baseball, thought sabermetrics were stupid, useless, and wrong, called Bill James and Billy Bean idiots, thought Moneyball was a terrible idea, etc and based this all on the fact that they played baseball for 30 years. They got so pissed at the fact I was persistent with posting evidence and rebuttals that they just gave me a 24 hour ban. Some people just don't care about the truth.

[Dipre]

Yeah, I had this problem on another (non-baseball) forum. They were saying ludicrous things about baseball, thought sabermetrics were stupid, useless, and wrong, called Bill James and Billy Bean idiots, thought Moneyball was a terrible idea, etc and based this all on the fact that they played baseball for 30 years. They got so pissed at the fact I was persistent with posting evidence and rebuttals that they just gave me a 24 hour ban. Some people just don't care about the truth.

Yeah Gom just doesn't care about the truth.

[Emmz]

What do you expect, it's Gom

[bsox0407]

What do you expect, it's Gom

:thumbsup::thumbsup::lol::lol:

[Dipre]

It's hilarious how he says only Emmz has agreed with me. I guess TW101, E1 and bsox don't count.

[Emmz]

It's hilarious how he says only Emmz has agreed with me. I guess TW101, E1 and bsox don't count.

But of course, his argument has more holes in it than swiss cheese

[bsox0407]

It's hilarious how he says only Emmz has agreed with me. I guess TW101, E1 and bsox don't count.

i can see why i don't count. :lol::lol::rolleyes:

[Emmz]

Don't be so hard on yourself there, sport

[TedWilliams101]

Well, I'm sure I don't "count" because I haven't been around lately. I mean, because my almost 4,000 posts over the course of 3+ years don't mean anything. :rolleyes:

[Dipre]

Well, I'm sure I don't "count" because I haven't been around lately. I mean, because my almost 4,000 posts over the course of 3+ years don't mean anything. :rolleyes:

You "counted" when he thought you were supporting his argument.

[bsox0407]

Well, I'm sure I don't "count" because I haven't been around lately. I mean, because my almost 4,000 posts over the course of 3+ years don't mean anything. :rolleyes:

Of course they don't what are you stupid or something. lol j/k. You can't be serious 4,000 posts they mean nothing. :rolleyes::lol::lol:

[TedWilliams101]

You "counted" when he thought you were supporting his argument.

Yeah that is true... I was a bit surprised that he used my post as "evidence" to support his argument when I clearly said in the "conclusion" that he wouldn't likely have any trouble in the AL East.

[Emmz]

Guys, come on now, we all just need to realize that Gom is more intelligent than all of us, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for believing sound logic and statistics rather than his blatant crocks of shit

[bsox0407]

Guys, come on now, we all just need to realize that Gom is more intelligent than all of us, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for believing sound logic and statistics rather than his blatant crocks of shit

Agreed we are assholes. :lol::lol:

[Dipre]

God, i'm such an asshole.

[bsox0407]

God, i'm such an asshole.

:lol: I wish i could be on the level of asshole you are. lol

[Dipre]

:lol: I wish i could be on the level of asshole you are. lol

Hahahaha you don't mean that.

Then you'd have to live in a 3rd world country and have chickens running around in your backyard man. :lol:

[bsox0407]

Hahahaha you don't mean that.

Then you'd have to live in a 3rd world country and have chickens running around in your backyard man. :lol:

I would love that.:lol::lol: all i have in my back yard is a baseball field.

[Dipre]

I would love that.:lol::lol: all i have in my back yard is a baseball field.

Chickens are delicious. That is all.

[bsox0407]

Chickens are delicious. That is all.

I LOVE chicken.

[Gom]

Guys guys guys, lets just stick with the facts and stats. Scouting reports are great and all, but they don't really mean anything if the actual stats seem to contradict the report.

This IS the way it is. This scouting report that keeps getting mentioned doesn't prove that Holliday has a hole in his swing, neither does it even say that. The scouting report simply gives the best approach to get Holliday out. He has the most trouble on inside fastballs, however, THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE CAN'T HIT THEM! It simply is the most effective approach to pitch against him. In fact, going hard inside (especially up) is going to be the most effective pitching approach against most hitters because it is one of the hardest pitches to hit. Again though, that doesn't mean he can't hit them.

Just look at the facts. I simply can't believe that, if he had a huge hole in his swing and couldn't hit a inside fastball, he would have been able to sustain such a high level of success for 6 years in the majors. It just doesn't make any sense.

Right now there just isn't much substance to the theory (because that is what this is) that he can't hit isn't fastballs. All there is to support the theory is this scouting report and 3 games. You can make Albert freaken Pujols look like he has a hole in his swing with a 3-game sample size and scouting report

I didn't say he NEVER could hit an inside fastball. It's just that he has the most trouble with that pitch and that he was horribly exposed.

This is what I said.


1. Avoid Holliday. As good as his stats may be, he is not worth the money. First of all, his tenure in Oakland was nothing to write home about. An .832 OPS is more indicative of his performance in the AL instead of the insane 1.023 OPS with the Cardinals, in a weaker division and league. Also, he was horribly exposed in the NLDS. Of the 36 pitches he saw, 34 were inside fastballs. He hit one homerun, on you guessed it...a curveball. Considering the money he's going to command, would you rather have Damon AND Matsui short term or Holliday long-term? Let the Cardinals and Mets fight it out. Plus, with Arod, you need a lefty to even it out. Considering he will command a long-term contract, let him go back to the Cardinals or to the Mets, or as a suprise, the Giants. I doubt the Red Sox are dumb enough to take him on.

Anyone debate this? What I stated were FACTS. The only part that is my opinion is that I believe he would be closer to an .832 OPS hitter in the AL then he would be to 1.023 OPS and that I would rather have Damon and Matsui short term for the same money that it would cost annually to have Holliday, and signing him long-term to boot.

That a career built in Coors and a great second half of the season in St. Louis after having a very pedestrian stint in Oakland was not worth the $100 million he would be seeking.

Couple this with the facts that:

1) they threw one pitch to him, ultimately, as Dipre liked to point out, the one pitch nearly every pitcher has

2) They threw this pitch to him over 94% of the time in the playoffs

3) The location of this pitch was over 55% of the time in the same location

4) Of all the pitches he saw, his only extra base hit came on a curveball away.

Couple the four points, plus his pedestrian OPS in the AL, and I don't see how he is worth what he will command. Is he a terrible player? Of course not. He is a nice, above average OF. Not an elite player by a long shot. He is expecting to be paid that way.

I never said the guy couldn't hit. I said he was horribly exposed.

In the American League, his wFBC/100 was...get this, 0.18. 0.18!!!!! According to you, this doesn't matter. Why? Because you'll look at the full body of work. There is merit to that. However, to me, and as a Yankee fan, what he did in the AL mattered more, because that's more of what he will see. There is very little doubt that the quality of players in the AL, especially the AL East is better than that of the NL Central. Who would he face in the NL Central? Oswalt? Harden? Shit, he'd be facing CC, Burnett, Halliday, Beckett, Lester...would anyone care to wager here that if he is signed in the AL, would he be loser to .830 OPS or 1.020 OPS? Put the money you don't have Dipre where your mouth is.

I did not watch him all season, I doubt anyone did here unless they are rabid A's fans. His wFBC shows that he was basically garbage against the fastball in the American League. For some reason, go back and read the quote.

"In the postseason, the question is whether they can hit an inside fastball," says a longtime scout. "If they can't, they're going to get pounded." In the division series against the Dodgers, Cardinals cleanup man Holliday got pounded, and maybe it was inevitable. After struggling early on with Oakland, he was traded to St. Louis in late July and wrecked National League pitching. Some American League scouts wondered why NL hurlers didn't pitch Holliday inside more.

The Dodgers advance scouts must have asked the same question, because from the very first inning of the NLDS, Joe Torre basically challenged Holliday to beat LA. Torre ordered an intentional walk to Albert Pujols, loading the bases and putting the onus on Holliday, who struck out looking on an inside fastball. Dodgers pitchers kept crowding Holliday with hard stuff: Of the 36 pitches he saw in the series, 34 were fastballs-yes, 34-and of those, 20 were thrown inside. Holliday had one extra-base hit in the NLDS, a home run on a curveball away."

Apparently, their scouts saw something you didn't Dipre. Hard to argue with success...even though you try. Try as you might, you can't argue with the results the Dodgers had. Their job was to shut down Holliday. The fact that it was a small sample size is 100% irrelevant. They did their job. In fact, you can argue that because they were so prepared, the series only went three games. They told their pitchers to pitch around Pujols and pitch Holliday inside with hard stuff. Debate that...or go cry to your internet girlfriend.

[Dipre]

Now not only does he change his tune, but he sticks to the 36-pitch sample size.

Fucking hilarious.

[italstallianion]

Damn, all this time GOM was getting owned and I missed it. Nobody enjoys GOM getting served more than I do.

[Gom]

Now not only does he change his tune, but he sticks to the 36-pitch sample size.

Fucking hilarious.

Wow...you really are stupid. At least JHB knew enough to quit. I quoted exactly what I wrote before.

You know what's funny...you quoted his wFBC as 1.2, while failing to show that in the AL he was 0.18.

I love how you selectively use statistics to back up your claim while ignoring the ones that matter.

Still haven't answered my question on if you think he's worth it? You won't, because it will show you agree with my assessment to avoid him. I'd tell you to man up, but when you look between your legs, there's nothing there.

[Dipre]

Wow...you really are stupid. At least JHB knew enough to quit. I quoted exactly what I wrote before.

You know what's funny...you quoted his wFBC as 1.2, while failing to show that in the AL he was 0.18.

I love how you selectively use statistics to back up your claim while ignoring the ones that matter.

Still haven't answered my question on if you think he's worth it? You won't, because it will show you agree with my assessment to avoid him. I'd tell you to man up, but when you look between your legs, there's nothing there.

I mentioned it was 2.45 in the NL, because it was obvious that he has struggled in the AL. You probably don't have the brainpower to figure that out yourself. I apologize for that. From now on, i'll spoon feed you the stats. It's worth mentioning however, that you keep switching your arguments and engaging in personal attacks because it's quite obvious your SSS argument holds no water.

As to whether i think he'll be worth it?

I answered that question with the first response i gave to your ridiculous claims. Unfortunately, you were too busy making shit up and attacking me to actually read it apparently.

[Gom]

I mentioned it was 2.45 in the NL, because it was obvious that he has struggled in the AL. You probably don't have the brainpower to figure that out yourself. I apologize for that. From now on, i'll spoon feed you the stats. It's worth mentioning however, that you keep switching your arguments and engaging in personal attacks because it's quite obvious your SSS argument holds no water.

Thank goodness for the Dodgers, their scouts didn't believe in what you think. They thought his stint in the AL was VERY RELEVANT. In fact...they pitched to him the way he was pitched to in the AL.
[/QUOTE]

You know what's funny...the more I look at Holliday's stats, the LESS sense you make.

OPS in AL: .831
OPS in NL: 1.023

wFBc/100 in AL: 0.18
wFBc/100 in NL: 2.45

It is plausible to say [I am not a mathematician, so I'm not sure how statistically relevant this statement is] that his inability to hit the fastball with any consistently in the AL is the biggest reason for the difference in OPS.

Secondly...guess what?

He saw 10% more fastballs in the AL. His percentage dropped from 64.7 to 54.6 when he moved to the NL. I won't be presumptive to believe like you do that he saw all the pitches the same ratio in all nine squares. I don't have this stat, and I don't believe you do either. However, I will make the assumption that the scouting report on him was correct. That the way to get him out is with inside fastballs. In the AL, he saw more fastballs, and IMO more fastballs on the inner half of the plate.

Anything else?

[bsox0407]

Thank goodness for the Dodgers, their scouts didn't believe in what you think. They thought his stint in the AL was VERY RELEVANT. In fact...they pitched to him the way he was pitched to in the AL.


You know what's funny...the more I look at Holliday's stats, the LESS sense you make.

OPS in AL: .831
OPS in NL: 1.023

wFBc/100 in AL: 0.18
wFBc/100 in NL: 2.45

It is plausible to say [I am not a mathematician, so I'm not sure how statistically relevant this statement is] that his inability to hit the fastball with any consistently in the AL is the biggest reason for the difference in OPS.

Secondly...guess what?

He saw 10% more fastballs in the AL. His percentage dropped from 64.7 to 54.6 when he moved to the NL. I won't be presumptive to believe like you do that he saw all the pitches the same ratio in all nine squares. I don't have this stat, and I don't believe you do either. However, I will make the assumption that the scouting report on him was correct. That the way to get him out is with inside fastballs. In the AL, he saw more fastballs, and IMO more fastballs on the inner half of the plate.

Anything else?

You really can't deal with losing. You got schooled and you can deal with it. Just give up and admit that you are wrong. Your comments are so much of a sweeping generalizations and your personal attacks on Dipre are lame. You remind me of a third grade child trying to fight a genius.

[Dipre]

Thank goodness for the Dodgers, their scouts didn't believe in what you think. They thought his stint in the AL was VERY RELEVANT. In fact...they pitched to him the way he was pitched to in the AL.



You know what's funny...the more I look at Holliday's stats, the LESS sense you make.

OPS in AL: .831
OPS in NL: 1.023

wFBc/100 in AL: 0.18
wFBc/100 in NL: 2.45

It is plausible to say [I am not a mathematician, so I'm not sure how statistically relevant this statement is] that his inability to hit the fastball with any consistently in the AL is the biggest reason for the difference in OPS.

Secondly...guess what?

He saw 10% more fastballs in the AL. His percentage dropped from 64.7 to 54.6 when he moved to the NL. I won't be presumptive to believe like you do that he saw all the pitches the same ratio in all nine squares. I don't have this stat, and I don't believe you do either. However, I will make the assumption that the scouting report on him was correct. That the way to get him out is with inside fastballs. In the AL, he saw more fastballs, and IMO more fastballs on the inner half of the plate.

Anything else?

It's simple:

1) He hit .341 on pitches in the inside part of the plate, this is a fact.

2) Ever think the reason he saw more fastballs in the AL is because he was crushing them after switching leagues?

The more i look at your bullshit, the less sense it makes. We all know he struggled in the AL, therefore his numbers look very diminished compared to his numbers from the NL, however, your assumption that he simply can't hit AL pitching is wrong, because the sample size is not big enough, and besides that, the NL West is a tough pitching league with huge stadiums and quality pitching, yet he succeeded there.

You keep basing your argument on 3 months worth of ABs when Holliday's been around for years. You, my good sir, have reached the epitome of stupidity. Congrats.

[Spudboy]

Hahahahha!

I love talksox.

[Dipre]

And to seal the deal, here are Holliday's interleague statistics (Vs AL pitching of course) during 2004,06,07 and 08 with Colorado.

04: 828 OPS as a rookie.

06: 948 OPS.

07: .917 OPS

08: 1.141 OPS.

All of this over 70 games, adds up to a 958 OPS against the AL.

In 2009, he had a .831 OPS over 93 games with Oakland.

So explain to me how he can't hit AL pitching?

Even adding his miserable time in Oakland, which had all sorts of aggravating factors, he has an .891 lifetime OPS against AL pitching. Well i think most AL outfielders would love to not be able to hit AL pitching to the tune of an .891 OPS.

[Gom]

It's simple:

1) He hit .341 on pitches in the inside part of the plate, this is a fact.

Again, you're assuming he hit the same in the AL as well as the NL, and that he was pitched equally in all three zones. These are incorrect assumptions.


2) Ever think the reason he saw more fastballs in the AL is because he was crushing them after switching leagues?

Wow...total and utter stupidity. Yeah, he was crushing them in them in the AL. To a tune of an .831 OPS. The only excuse for this comment is that this is somehow a typo.


The more i look at your bullshit, the less sense it makes. We all know he struggled in the AL, therefore his numbers look very diminished compared to his numbers from the NL, however, your assumption that he simply can't hit AL pitching is wrong, because the sample size is not big enough, and besides that, the NL West is a tough pitching league with huge stadiums and quality pitching, yet he succeeded there.
This is great....now his time in the AL is also a small sample size.

He had 400 plate appearances in the AL this year. He has 270 in the NL. However, the AL was too small a sample size, but what he did in the NL wasn't. This gets better...and better...and better.

Again...for the zillionth time....how are you possibly arguing with success?

He had a worse OPS in the AL then in the NL. FACT.
He saw more fastballs in the AL then in the NL. FACT.

Now, this is where I draw upon the work of others. I saw personally that he was being pounded inside and that he was terrible. Apparently, what I was seeing was the result of the advance Dodger scouts. So...I am sure that they had more access to better and more accurate scouting reports than me . So what I saw their end result.

Where the AL pitched him 64% fastballs, and the NL pitched him 54% fastballs, the Dodgers threw him 94% fastballs. He saw more fastballs on the inner half of the plate than he saw TOTAL percentage of fastballs in his NL stint this year.

BUT HE HIT .341 ON FASTBALLS INSIDE!!! Bullshit. You have no idea how many of those were fastballs, and at what percent. Nice try though.

End result...a .647 OPS in the post-season.

I would excuse it as a small sample size...if they hadn't thrown ONE FUCKING PITCH 94% of the time.


You keep basing your argument on 3 months worth of ABs when Holliday's been around for years. You, my good sir, have reached the epitome of stupidity. Congrats.
Yeah, sorry, I am. I won't take inflated Coors stats seriously. My bad.

Let's delve a little deeper...let's take a look at his AWAY stats for his CAREER.

This takes away his obvious inflated stats for Coors.

Ready for this...drumroll please....

BA: .284
OBP: .353
SLG: .454
OPS: .808

[B]Fucking .808. LOWER THAN WHAT HE DID IN OAKLAND THIS YEAR. You take a sample size of 270 plate appearances? I took over 1700! He is a product of his home stadium. With an .808 OPS for his fucking AWAY career...you think he murders the inside fastball...when he posted a .647 OPS being pitched nothing but fastballs in the NLDS. Yeah, you make sense. The funny thing is...I didn't know any of this until I stared looking into it to show you how much of a moron you are.

The team that signs this guy will regret this tremendously if it is a $100 million plus deal.

To you...and the rest of the idiots that supported you [not you Ted, at least you said the data was inconclusive]....pour yourself a nice, ice cold, frosty mug of shut the fuck up.

[Dipre]

Read above Einstein.

[Gom]

Read above Einstein.

Let me throw your small sample size up your you know what. How many at bats? How many home and away?

His career away stats result in an .808 OPS. Enjoy the mug.

[Dipre]

Let me throw your small sample size up your you know what. How many at bats? How many home and away?

His career away stats result in an .808 OPS. Enjoy the mug.

Including his time in Oakland, meaning he hit against the NL in interleagues, but you already knew that.

[Dipre]

Oh, and about the sample size, the 93 games in Oakland and the 70 of interleague play constitute about a full season.

Full season>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>36 pitches.

That is all.

[bsox0407]

Oh, and about the sample size, the 93 games in Oakland and the 70 of interleague play constitute about a full season.

Full season>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>36 pitches.

That is all.

he just doesn't give up and admit he lost does he. i totally agree with you.

[Dipre]

he just doesn't give up and admit he lost does he. i totally agree with you.

Everyone who disagrees with him is an idiot though.

Even though the stats and common sense both disagree with him. So stats and common sense are both idiots i suppose.

[bsox0407]

Everyone who disagrees with him is an idiot though.

Even though the stats and common sense both disagree with him.

I wish i could be smart like him. :rolleyes::lol:

Stats and facts are totally overrated.

[Gom]

Let's ignore the 414 games he played in his career in away games. Let's take inflated numbers in the NL for 270 plate appearances as the truth.

By your logic:

414 games>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.270 plate appearances.

400 plate appearances>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>270 plate appearances.

Now...when the numbers for 36 pitches is close to the 400 plate appearances AND the 414 games, which do you think is the abberation. I can see why you have trouble winning in a court of law. Bsox0407...there is something to be said for the fool, and the fool who follows him.

If you take away his stats at home, he's a pedestrian player. None of what you say has shows one thing. He has trouble with the hard stuff inside.

How's that mug?

Say anthing you want. I'll rotate between three things.

His away stats for his career, and the major discrepancy between home and away.

His tenure in Oakland in a non-hitters park.

His production in the playoffs consisting of 94% fastballs and 55% percent fastballs inside.

What have you got? Numbers inflated by his tenure in St. Louis this year with Pujols in front of him and numbers inflated by Coors.

I'd say game over, but it ended a while ago. You still think the Yankees didn't win the World Series in 2009 did you?

[Dipre]

And the argument changes yet again. Good stuff.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What is .27 of a plate apperance?

[bsox0407]

Bsox0407...there is something to be said for the fool, and the fool who follows him.

Lets just see. Your views have changed from the start. You have no leg to stand on. You change your argument more than the weather. You are the fool. You opinion has nothing on Dipre's actually stats.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'm new to the argument, but how exactly is 400 plate appearances not >>>>>>>> 270 plate appearances?

[Dipre]

And for the record, Matt Holliday's road OPS had increased every year culminating with an .892 mark in 2008.

I also love how Gom uses the arguments that batting in front of Pujols inflated his numbers yet discounts that having no protection whatsoever in the Oakland lineup negatively impacted his numbers.

[Gom]

How have I changed my argument? I have shown proof that he has trouble with the inside fastball.

He was horribly exposed in the NLDS. FACT. The sample size is irrelevant. If he was pitched inside and hit 4 homers, I would be pining to sign him. Instead, I saw a weakness, and the funny thing, the numbers backed me up.

He was pitched in the NLDS 94% fastballs, and 55% inside fastballs. FACT. Indisputable.

He had a worse OPS in the AL than in the NL in 2009. FACT. Indisputable.

He saw more fastballs in the AL [64.7%], than in the NL [54.7%] and did worse against them[0.18 to 2.45]. FACT. Indisputable.

His stint in Oakland showed a pedestrian OPS of .831 [some sites say .832, whatever]. His OPS in St. Louis was 1.023. FACT. Indisputable.

His CAREER road OPS [taking away the influence of Coors] is .808. FACT. Indisputable.

My belief, and I will admit it is conjecture, that due to the increase in seen fastballs in the AL and his problem with that pitch, primarily on the inside, led to his decreased profiency in the AL. When he went to the NL, and saw less fastballs, his production increased. This is my opinion on the analysis of the stats. Anyone willing to debate this, I'm willing to hear them out.

Your argument?

He hit .341 on inside fastballs. FALSE. There is no way to know WHAT pitches he saw and how often he was pitched to in each zone. You are assuming he saw all pitches at an equal percentage in all three inside zones. If this is true, then I will agree that this would be changed to FACT. Also, you are unable to show the following:

a) frequency of pitches in each zone
b) frequency of fastballs in each zone
c) differentiate between AL and NL

Do that, and we'll talk. Other than that, shut the fuck up. Back up what you're saying or quit while behind.

You are making an assumption I am not willing to accept...nor would it be accepted in a court of law.

[Gom]

I'm new to the argument, but how exactly is 400 plate appearances not >>>>>>>> 270 plate appearances?

Let him go...he thinks he's winning.

[TedWilliams101]

Well, an increase in FBs doesn't necessarily correlate to less success. In 2007/2008 he saw the highest % of FBs in his career (66.8%, 67%) yet he had 2 of his best years (.340, .321 BA; 1.01, 0.947 OPS).

[Dipre]

How have I changed my argument? I have shown proof that he has trouble with the inside fastball.

He was horribly exposed in the NLDS. FACT. The sample size is irrelevant. If he was pitched inside and hit 4 homers, I would be pining to sign him. Instead, I saw a weakness, and the funny thing, the numbers backed me up.

He was pitched in the NLDS 94% fastballs, and 55% inside fastballs. FACT. Indisputable.

He had a worse OPS in the AL than in the NL in 2009. FACT. Indisputable.

He saw more fastballs in the AL [64.7%], than in the NL [54.7%] and did worse against them[0.18 to 2.45]. FACT. Indisputable.

His stint in Oakland showed a pedestrian OPS of .831 [some sites say .832, whatever]. His OPS in St. Louis was 1.023. FACT. Indisputable.

His CAREER road OPS [taking away the influence of Coors] is .808. FACT. Indisputable.

My belief, and I will admit it is conjecture, that due to the increase in seen fastballs in the AL and his problem with that pitch, primarily on the inside, led to his decreased profiency in the AL. When he went to the NL, and saw less fastballs, his production increased. This is my opinion on the analysis of the stats. Anyone willing to debate this, I'm willing to hear them out.

Your argument?

He hit .341 on inside fastballs. FALSE. There is no way to know WHAT pitches he saw and how often he was pitched to in each zone. You are assuming he saw all pitches at an equal percentage in all three inside zones. If this is true, then I will agree that this would be changed to FACT. Also, you are unable to show the following:

a) frequency of pitches in each zone
b) frequency of fastballs in each zone
c) differentiate between AL and NL

Do that, and we'll talk. Other than that, shut the fuck up. Back up what you're saying or quit while behind.

You are making an assumption I am not willing to accept...nor would it be accepted in a court of law.

A) I said how much he hit on inside pitches.

B ) His road OPS was never the issue to begin with, it was "He can't hit the inside fastball", which has been disproven, but as long as we're on it, his road OPS had improved every year he was in the league except last year.

C) His time in Oakland has enough mitigating factors that harmed his numbers so that saying "he can't hit Al pitching" is an act of complete stupidity. Enter Gom.

D) There's a pretty good chance the reason he saw less fastballs in the NL is because he was crushing everything. When a hitter's doing real good, they tend to stay away from the fastballs to avoid a mistake in their wheelhouse.

Again, a lot of your "facts" are Gommie fabrications and numbers manipulations, see how you're so angry and "telling me to STFU" because i'm handing your ass to you. That's good stuff.

The fact that you've kept changing arguments, calling me names, and using sample sizes that would've made Chris Shelton a happy man tells us that your argument is basically an enormous amount of fabricated BULLSHIT.

So if anyone needs to STFU, it's you, Gommie.

[Dipre]

Let him go...he thinks he's winning.

The only delusional person here is you, Gommie.

[Gom]

Outside of pitching inside fastballs to him myself, there is nothing really left to show you. You refuse to see logic. Not surprised. The next time you do, it will be the first.

You have not refuted a single thing I stated, you just spout information that is speculative, incomplete and not valid. I've taken everything you've stated and shown you errors.

The irony of the whole thing is this:

After seeing what I saw in the post-season, I made my deductions.

Only when you starting debating the opposite did I delve deeper into the research...and I found the following:

His career OPS on the road is average at best.

He saw more fastballs in the AL than in the NL and did worse against them.

I guess I should thank you since you basically made my debate against you stronger. I had no idea of this stuff when I posted it originally.

Without resulting to personal attacks, because they've become tiresome in this thread [but not others], you've supplanted Jacko for me in the sense that all I have to do is take the opposite stance with you in pretty much every debate, and I will be right 95% of the time.

Thank you.

[Tyler Durden]

I would let Damon take a hike, and try and make a trade for a top of the order type hitter who can play the outfield. Brad Hawpe or maybe even Curtis Granderson.

[Dipre]

As usual, gommie changes arguments 10,000 times and stick to his guns even if his "deep research" has been proven wrong.

He also writes things like "Your points made mine stronger" which is outright hilarious. But what can ya do?

You're wrong, and that's that.

[bsox0407]

As usual, gommie changes arguments 10,000 times and stick to his guns even if his "deep research" has been proven wrong.

He also writes things like "Your points made mine stronger" which is outright hilarious. But what can ya do?

You're wrong, and that's that.
Gom makes me laugh every time he comments on this. Just more and more stupid shit comes out of his mouth. He is wrong and just deal with it. He just keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper and he can't go much lower, But it is Gom i wouldn't be surprised if he was able to dig even deeper. Say hi to the Chinese for me Gom.

[Dipre]

Gom makes me laugh every time he comments on this. Just more and more stupid shit comes out of his mouth. He is wrong and just deal with it. He just keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper and he can't go much lower, But it is Gom i wouldn't be surprised if he was able to dig even deeper. Say hi to the Chinese for me Gom.

Holy shit that is so cliche that it's hilarious. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[bsox0407]

Holy shit that is so cliche that it's hilarious. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Maybe i should have said bring me back some pork fired rice to. :lol:

[Gom]

Well, this is obviously over. No proof from your side. Too bad...I thought you could actually back up your point and maybe prove me wrong. I'm all about learning, but sadly, all you've shown is that you are too retarded to know you're wrong.

You should get sharper people to try to help you than bsox and emmz. Try ORS or Kilo next time...or pretty much anyone.

Nice try.


I would let Damon take a hike, and try and make a trade for a top of the order type hitter who can play the outfield. Brad Hawpe or maybe even Curtis Granderson.

The problem that we face is this: Is the cost in prospects worth the difference between Damon and the player you're trying to get? I am not sure.

[Dipre]

Lol no proof.

You're stupid enough not to realize the following:

Your "he can't hit on the road" premise is flawed from its foundation, because the knock on Holliday was that he couldn't hit anywhere else but Coors.

Holliday's combined OPS last year between Oakland and St. Louis: .982.

You don't even know the facts about the argument you're trying to make.

It's been over for a long time since i have destroyed every laughable argument you've made to the point that you're now trying to change the subject.

Bitch please.

[Dipre]

Gom says: Holliday can't hit inside fastballs.

Dipre says: He hit .341 against inside pitches last year. Most inside pitches are fastballs, therefore, he hit inside fastballs well. Gom FAIL.

Gom says: But they fed him inside fastballs in the playoffs and he did nothing.

Dipre says: It's a 36 pitch sample size. Gom FAIL.

Gom says: Well he can't hit AL pitching.

Dipre says: He has an .892 OPS lifetime against AL pitching including his time in Oakland.Gom FAIL.

Gom says: But that's a small sample size.

Dipre says: After you used 36 pitches as a sample size, you call 163 games worth of AB's a SSS. Gom FAIL.

Gom says: Well he can't hit on the road.

Dipre says: He had increased his road OPS every year until last year when he had problems hitting on the with Oakland, but there are enough issues that aggravate this (Stadium, no protection, new team, new league.) to explain his struggles. Hell, Teixeira was doing NOTHING while he adjusted to the Yanks, but he's a Yankee so he's omnipotent amirite?. Gom FAIL.

Gom says: I tell you he can't hit on the road.

Dipre says: The true knock on Holliday was that he couldn't hit AWAY FROM COORS, you're recycling the information you read without even processing it. He had .982 OPS in St. Louis and Oakland last year. Neither of those stadiums is Coors Field. Gom FAIL.

You're right when you say this discussion is over. I'm about to have a heart attack from laughing at your arguments.

[bsox0407]

Well, this is obviously over. No proof from your side. Too bad...I thought you could actually back up your point and maybe prove me wrong. I'm all about learning, but sadly, all you've shown is that you are too retarded to know you're wrong.

You should get sharper people to try to help you than bsox and emmz. Try ORS or Kilo next time...or pretty much anyone.

Personal attacks. When you lose you go to that. You know you are wrong but you have shown "that you are too retarded to know you're wrong." Im glad you know that you are the retarded one. My shit has a higher IQ than you do.

[Gom]

Read on folks...this is going to be great.


Gom says: Holliday can't hit inside fastballs.

Dipre says: He hit .341 against inside pitches last year. Most inside pitches are fastballs, therefore, he hit inside fastballs well. Gom FAIL.

Again. Assumption. Incorrect. I would have been the first one who, on limited information like you're giving, have thought the LAST thing they should do is pitch him inside. However, what I saw was the result of intensive Dodger scouting that probably, and I'm making an assumption here, had better information than you did. End result? 34 of 36 pitches seen were fastballs, 20 were inside, one extra base hit on a curveball, a homerun.

Again, only you would argue against success.


Gom says: But they fed him inside fastballs in the playoffs and he did nothing.

Dipre says: It's a 36 pitch sample size. Gom FAIL.
Actually, Holliday failed. The amazing thing is that you are defending failure...and trying to show that what the Dodgers did was a failure as well. Funny...they held him in check, but they failed. End justifies the means. The Dodgers apparently saw something you don't have access to, or are too simple to realize. Throwing a batter 94% fastballs, and 55% in the same relative location is NOT an accident or random chance. Explain to me, if your tired brain can actually debate logic, WHY would the Dodgers pitch him that way if you were correct? Why attack a hitters strength instead of his weakness? WHY WHY WHY??? The fact that he was dogshit in the NLDS shows something. See if you can figure it out.


Gom says: Well he can't hit AL pitching.

Dipre says: He has an .892 OPS lifetime against AL pitching including his time in Oakland.Gom FAIL.

BLATANT LIE. You're making shit up. I would say unbelievable, but you're pathetic. Check the following link.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hollima01&year=&t=b

He has a .880 OPS in interleague play in his career. Considering his entire career was in the NL except for four months in the AL with Oakland, the majority of those numbers, in fact, all but one season, this year, he compiled a .880 OPS.

His OPS in Oakland was .832.
You're quoting .892 as his OPS. BULLSHIT.

Only in your world does any combination of adding and averaging .880 and .832 come up to .892.

This, dear members of Talksox, ends the argument. I'll continue, but if he MAKES shit up, he has ZERO credibility. Period. In ANY argument. In ANY debate. I am just enjoying the internet ass-whipping too much to quit.



Gom says: But that's a small sample size.

Dipre says: After you used 36 pitches as a sample size, you call 163 games worth of AB's a SSS. Gom FAIL.
That's why I showed a sample size this year of 400 plate appearances in Oakland. Like I said, he can't hit AL pitching with anywhere near the success he did NL pitching. Seeing how he was pitched fastballs nearly 20% more in the AL than in the NL, and his OPS in Oakland was .832 as compared to 1.023 in St. Louis, it is a fair assumption in my mind. Coupled with what the Dodgers did to him in the post-season, I'd say it's a very high degree of probability.

I also quoted his stats for his career on the road. Sorry, I put more credibility in what he did in his career than in one season, especially a split season. Considering in his career he played 405 games on the road with an .808 OPS to be more relevant. I didn't say your 163 was a small sample size. I said it is more relevant than yours. Due to sample size. Don't you love it when your arguments jump up and bite you in your own ass?

See, if sample size is the major determinant, and sample size decreases from A to Z, then A>B>C. My arguments are C [NLDS stats], and A [lifetime road stats]. The only sample size larger than his road stats would be his career stats...but, sad to tell you, they are not relevant since we are discussing how he hits on the road . Again...you lose.


[I]Gom says: Well he can't hit on the road.

Dipre says: He had increased his road OPS every year until last year when he had problems hitting on the with Oakland, but there are enough issues that aggravate this (Stadium, no protection, new team, new league.) to explain his struggles. Hell, Teixeira was doing NOTHING while he adjusted to the Yanks, but he's a Yankee so he's omnipotent amirite?. Gom FAIL.
Oh...I'm sorry. He was "adjusting". Just like in the playoffs. Just like in his career in inter-league play. Just like anything that fits your argument.

Where is the reference to Tex coming from? Again...more auxillary bullshit.


Gom says: I tell you he can't hit on the road.

Dipre says: The true knock on Holliday was that he couldn't hit AWAY FROM COORS, you're recycling the information you read without even processing it. He had .982 OPS in St. Louis and Oakland last year. Neither of those stadiums is Coors Field. Gom FAIL.

He hit in St. Louis. Not in Oakland. Get it straight.

Thanks for the fiction. Go away. I've said this before, I commended you for trying.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, in which case I'll apologize in advance for calling you a liar. Show me a link that shows his OPS against the AL in his career [preferably AWAY from Coors, but that may be a bit of a stretch to find] is .892. We are all beholden to the stats on the internet, and I'll excuse it if your research, as misguided as it is, came up with this number. Make it a real site, like ESPN or baseball reference, not your cousin Yuri's site.

However, unless you can prove your OPS numbers with a link, you're garbage. Out of respect for the board, please don't post in this thread until you can prove your numbers. I don't appreciate dealing with people who would rather lie than admit they are wrong.

[bsox0407]

Read on folks...this is going to be great.

It was great to see how much you make bullshit up.



Again. Assumption. Incorrect. I would have been the first one who, on limited information like you're giving, have thought the LAST thing they should do is pitch him inside. However, what I saw was the result of intensive Dodger scouting that probably, and I'm making an assumption here, had better information than you did. End result? 34 of 36 pitches seen were fastballs, 20 were inside, one extra base hit on a curveball, a homerun.

More and more different info coming out. Just more things to discredit your stance even more that was already a weak position. You have been making false statements and making just plain stupid assumptions.




Actually, Holliday failed. The amazing thing is that you are defending failure...and trying to show that what the Dodgers did was a failure as well. Funny...they held him in check, but they failed. End justifies the means. The Dodgers apparently saw something you don't have access to, or are too simple to realize. Throwing a batter 94% fastballs, and 55% in the same relative location is NOT an accident or random chance. Explain to me, if your tired brain can actually debate logic, WHY would the Dodgers pitch him that way if you were correct? Why attack a hitters strength instead of his weakness? WHY WHY WHY??? The fact that he was dogshit in the NLDS shows something. See if you can figure it out.


Small sample size. Pedroia first stint in the MLB was horrid. Does that make him a horrid batter. NO. You have no common sense.


Dipre says: He has an .892 OPS lifetime against AL pitching including his time in Oakland.Gom FAIL.

BLATANT LIE. You're making shit up. I would say unbelievable, but you're pathetic. Check the following link.

I believe you are the one making shit up. Just face it, you are the stupidest person in the world.






This, dear members of Talksox, ends the argument. I'll continue, but if he MAKES shit up, he has ZERO credibility. Period. In ANY argument. In ANY debate. I am just enjoying the internet ass-whipping too much to quit.
[QUOTE=Dipre;499397;]

Gom says: But that's a small sample size.

Dipre says: After you used 36 pitches as a sample size, you call 163 games worth of AB's a SSS. Gom FAIL.
That's why I showed a sample size this year of 400 plate appearances in Oakland. Like I said, he can't hit AL pitching with anywhere near the success he did NL pitching. Seeing how he was pitched fastballs nearly 20% more in the AL than in the NL, and his OPS in Oakland was .832 as compared to 1.023 in St. Louis, it is a fair assumption in my mind. Coupled with what the Dodgers did to him in the post-season, I'd say it's a very high degree of probability.

I also quoted his stats for his career on the road. Sorry, I put more credibility in what he did in his career than in one season, considering in his career he played 405 games on the road. With an .808 OPS. I didn't say your 163 was a small sample size. I said it is more relevant than yours. Due to sample size.

See, if sample size is the major determinant, and sample size decreases from A to Z, then A>B>C. My arguments are C [NLDS stats], and A [lifetime road stats]. The only sample size larger than his road stats would be his career stats...but, sad to tell you, they are not relevant. Again...you lose.
[QUOTE=Dipre;499397;]
Gom says: Well he can't hit on the road.

Dipre says: He had increased his road OPS every year until last year when he had problems hitting on the with Oakland, but there are enough issues that aggravate this (Stadium, no protection, new team, new league.) to explain his struggles. Hell, Teixeira was doing NOTHING while he adjusted to the Yanks, but he's a Yankee so he's omnipotent amirite?. Gom FAIL.
Oh...I'm sorry. He was "adjusting". Just like in the playoffs. Just like in his career in inter-league play. Just like anything that fits your argument.

Where is the reference to Tex coming from? Again...more auxillary bullshit.

He hit in St. Louis. Not in Oakland. Get it straight.

Thanks for the fiction. Go away. I've said this before, I commended you for trying.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, in which case I'll apologize in advance for calling you a liar. Show me a link that shows his OPS against the AL in his career [preferably AWAY from Coors, but that may be a bit of a stretch to find] is .892. We are all beholden to the stats on the internet, and I'll excuse it if your research, as misguided as it is, came up with this number. Make it a real site, like ESPN or baseball reference, not your cousin Yuri's site.

However, unless you can prove your OPS numbers with a link, you're garbage. Out of respect for the board, please don't post in this thread until you can prove your numbers. I don't appreciate dealing with people who would rather lie than admit they are wrong.

You have made the world dumber with your blatant stupidity.

[Gom]

I'm mistaken. You are dumber than Dipre. Actually, I don't even know who you are bsox, nor do I care. I won't bother arguing with you, since you're just a complete moron. Go away.

[bsox0407]

I'm mistaken. You are dumber than Dipre. Actually, I don't even know who you are bsox, nor do I care. I won't bother arguing with you, since you're just a complete moron. Go away.

Im the moron? Yeah you make laugh. You make the world dumber with your sheer mentally retarded comments. Just because you are the one is still wrong and have been proved wrong with actual evidence. GDIF. You need to understand something if you can be cause of your mental defect. You are wrong.

[Coco's Disciples]

You all need to stop with the personal attacks. Now.

[bsox0407]

You all need to stop with the personal attacks. Now.

Gom started with the personal attacks since he blatantly wrong comments and decided to get indigent and bring out the personal attacks on Dipre.

[Dipre]

Read on folks...this is going to be great.


Again. Assumption. Incorrect. I would have been the first one who, on limited information like you're giving, have thought the LAST thing they should do is pitch him inside. However, what I saw was the result of intensive Dodger scouting that probably, and I'm making an assumption here, had better information than you did. End result? 34 of 36 pitches seen were fastballs, 20 were inside, one extra base hit on a curveball, a homerun.

On a 36 pitch sample size. Stupidity at its finest.


Again, only you would argue against success.

Actually, Holliday failed. The amazing thing is that you are defending failure...and trying to show that what the Dodgers did was a failure as well. Funny...they held him in check, but they failed. End justifies the means. The Dodgers apparently saw something you don't have access to, or are too simple to realize. Throwing a batter 94% fastballs, and 55% in the same relative location is NOT an accident or random chance. Explain to me, if your tired brain can actually debate logic, WHY would the Dodgers pitch him that way if you were correct? Why attack a hitters strength instead of his weakness? WHY WHY WHY??? The fact that he was dogshit in the NLDS shows something. See if you can figure it out.

Yet you keep comparing a year worth of AB's to 36 pitches in the ALDS. Fantastic.



BLATANT LIE. You're making shit up. I would say unbelievable, but you're pathetic. Check the following link.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hollima01&year=&t=b

He has a .880 OPS in interleague play in his career. Considering his entire career was in the NL except for four months in the AL with Oakland, the majority of those numbers, in fact, all but one season, this year, he compiled a .880 OPS.

His OPS in Oakland was .832.
You're quoting .892 as his OPS. BULLSHIT.

Only in your world does any combination of adding and averaging .880 and .832 come up to .892.

Gom's smart enough to add the 2009 numbers of interleague play, without knowing that he played the interleague games this year with Oakland vs the NL, so he shouldn't count them.

Fucking hilarious.


This, dear members of Talksox, ends the argument. I'll continue, but if he MAKES shit up, he has ZERO credibility. Period. In ANY argument. In ANY debate. I am just enjoying the internet ass-whipping too much to quit.


Or maybe you don't have the brainpower to discount AL vs NL numbers?

Internet ass-whooping at its best here folks.


That's why I showed a sample size this year of 400 plate appearances in Oakland. Like I said, he can't hit AL pitching with anywhere near the success he did NL pitching. Seeing how he was pitched fastballs nearly 20% more in the AL than in the NL, and his OPS in Oakland was .832 as compared to 1.023 in St. Louis, it is a fair assumption in my mind. Coupled with what the Dodgers did to him in the post-season, I'd say it's a very high degree of probability.

First of all, he didn't have 400 PAs with Oakland, so you're making that up.

Second of all, the fact that his career interleague PA's almost equals the amount he took in Oakland with vastly superior numbers tells you that he probably sits somewhere in the middle.

So you average them out and what do you get?

A very above-average .892 OPS.

Unfortunately, you try to disguise the fact that you lack the brainpower to analyze this numbers correctly by hiding your posts in a sea of personal attacks.

Goes to show everyone how little you really know.


I also quoted his stats for his career on the road. Sorry, I put more credibility in what he did in his career than in one season, especially a split season. Considering in his career he played 405 games on the road with an .808 OPS to be more relevant. I didn't say your 163 was a small sample size. I said it is more relevant than yours. Due to sample size. Don't you love it when your arguments jump up and bite you in your own ass?

See, if sample size is the major determinant, and sample size decreases from A to Z, then A>B>C. My arguments are C [NLDS stats], and A [lifetime road stats]. The only sample size larger than his road stats would be his career stats...but, sad to tell you, they are not relevant since we are discussing how he hits on the road [i.e. AWAY FROM COORS]. Again...you lose.

He had an .892 OPS away from Coors in 2008, and .982 OPS between Mcaffee and Busch stadium this year.

Two year's worth of PA's anyone?


Oh...I'm sorry. He was "adjusting". Just like in the playoffs. Just like in his career in inter-league play. Just like anything that fits your argument.


36- pitch sample size.

How you keep clinging to the stupidity is astounding.


Where is the reference to Tex coming from? Again...more auxillary bullshit.

He hit in St. Louis. Not in Oakland. Get it straight.

He maintained his OPS above the .830 mark while in Oakland, and just before being traded, he was tearing the cover off the ball.

He had .872, .814., and 1.150 OPS marks in May,June and July. The month that did him in was April with a .648 OPS, just like Tex's abysmal April. You don't want to use the comparison because it helps my argument. Pathetic.


Thanks for the fiction. Go away. I've said this before, I commended you for trying.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, in which case I'll apologize in advance for calling you a liar. Show me a link that shows his OPS against the AL in his career [preferably AWAY from Coors, but that may be a bit of a stretch to find] is .892. We are all beholden to the stats on the internet, and I'll excuse it if your research, as misguided as it is, came up with this number. Make it a real site, like ESPN or baseball reference, not your cousin Yuri's site.

Already done, you lacked the brainpower to take off 2009's vs NL numbers.

Hilarious.


However, unless you can prove your OPS numbers with a link, you're garbage. Out of respect for the board, please don't post in this thread until you can prove your numbers. I don't appreciate dealing with people who would rather lie than admit they are wrong.

You provided the link yourself. You just didn't have enough brain cells working at the same time to figure out that this year he played interleague games with Oakland vs. the NL.

Hilarious.

[Dipre]

You all need to stop with the personal attacks. Now.

Wait.

I have tried to refrain from the personal attacks as much as possible.

But the gentleman here has taken to hiding the fact that his arguments are laughable with a slew of insults and attacks.

Please sort through the posts and realize this for yourself.

[jacksonianmarch]

This should be taken to the F&C thread

[Coco's Disciples]

Wait.

I have tried to refrain from the personal attacks as much as possible.

But the gentleman here has taken to hiding the fact that his arguments are laughable with a slew of insults and attacks.

Please sort through the posts and realize this for yourself.

I don't care who started it or who has been doing it more. Everybody stop.

[yeszir]

Gom started with the personal attacks since he blatantly wrong comments and decided to get indigent and bring out the personal attacks on Dipre.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indigent

Gom is poor? Were you trying to say indigenous? Because that would have also been wrong...

You're all wrong. Everyone is attacking everyone. Echoing Coco here.....stop.

[bsox0407]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indigent

Gom is poor? Were you trying to say indigenous? Because that would have also been wrong...

You're all wrong. Everyone is attacking everyone. Echoing Coco here.....stop.

Indignant is what i meant. Horrible spelling curses me again.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indignant

[Gom]

Yet you keep comparing a year worth of AB's to 36 pitches in the ALDS. Fantastic.
I assume you mean NLDS...or in your mind did he play in the ALDS? Would make sense, as you like making shit up.


Gom's smart enough to add the 2009 numbers of interleague play, without knowing that he played the interleague games this year with Oakland vs the NL, so he shouldn't count them.

Fucking hilarious.
Ok...I went back and did the math. I thought it was obvious. However, just to show that you are a complete and utter liar, because you HAD the chance to say your numbers were in error, the cumulative total for all his interleague stats, removing his numbers with Oakland, calculate to a .862 OPS when combined with his stint in Oakland.

Let's see...an .832 OPS with Oakland, a career .880 OPS in interleague [keep in mind, half THOSE numbers were at Coors...but I'll STILL accept them].

Hmm....832 and 880...even when figuring the 880 was a little low for this year...comes out to 862. Plausible? I figured for normal and marginally retarded people.

Dipre would rather you believe that the average of 832 and 880 would fall around 892.

Let's just say....creative mathematics.


Take out his interleague numbers with Oakland, since I was too

Or maybe you don't have the brainpower to discount AL vs NL numbers?

Internet ass-whooping at its best here folks.
About the only correct thing you've said in this thread.


First of all, he didn't have 400 PAs with Oakland, so you're making that up.
No buddy, that's YOUR realm of expertise.

Here is the direct link to Fangraphs. 400 PA.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1873&position=OF

Here is the direct link to ESPN. 400 PA [under "Miscellaneous Batting"].

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5940


Second of all, the fact that his career interleague PA's almost equals the amount he took in Oakland with vastly superior numbers tells you that he probably sits somewhere in the middle.
I'll agree with you that he will most likely finish somewhere in between. Probably right around, um...let's say.....862 OPS?


So you average them out and what do you get?

A very above-average .892 OPS.
Again...NO. You're 30 points off. That is a significant amount.


Unfortunately, you try to disguise the fact that you lack the brainpower to analyze this numbers correctly by hiding your posts in a sea of personal attacks.

Goes to show everyone how little you really know.
Coming from someone who:

a) Has never given me a reason as to why the Dodgers attacked him with inside fastballs when that is his supposed strength. The only relevant information he tried to use was a hot zone, which does not show the difference between AL and NL...but he tries to use it in other arguments....which is pathetic...but not as bad as...

b) Outright lying and fabricating numbers to suit your goals. I very diplomatically gave you a chance to honorably claim error in your data, which you refused to do. You tried to convince everyone here that somehow, an average of .880 OPS and .832 OPS would end up around .862. No one with a 9th grade education would buy that. I was too lazy, but went back and did the math...it's .862. Take my word for it [I think we all know, regardless of where they stand on the issue, who's word everyone would take at this point], or do the math yourself. I gave you all the links.

c) This:



First of all, he didn't have 400 PAs with Oakland, so you're making that up.

I don't take offense to personal attacks, I find them funny. On a different subject, for no reason, I posted I dropped a World Series homerun ball. Just so we could have fun and to give you guys an excuse for some good-natured ribbing. I like to laugh at others, with others, and at myself. Everyone who gave me shit about dropping the ball did it in good taste, with a few exceptions, and everyone pretty much knows those that didn't are assholes anyways. However, I don't accept attacks on my credibility of what I post when it comes to statistical data. You may not agree with what I say, that goes for all of you, but I don't post LIES. Unfortunately, Dipre...YOU DO. I ask anyone here to validate this. Go to ESPN, or FanGraphs, or Baseball Reference...and come back and post how many Plate Appearances Holliday had with Oakland.

It's 400.

I don't make shit up.

Dipre does. From his very first post in this thread.

Now...back to the thread.

It's a mistake to sign Holliday...even more so with the bevy of free agents next year. It's funny, but the New York Mess is going after Holliday. Funny.

[bsox0407]

Gom- FACEPALM. You still insist you are right but in fact you are still wrong. Please for the last time you are WRONG and you should get over it. You change your opinion like an ADHD kid changes where his attention is. Please take some R and R and please learn to actually believe real facts not your own made up ones.

[Gom]

Go away. You have added ZERO to this thread...and you're about the biggest loser here. 1500+ posts, and nothing but shit. Go cry in your Beckett jersey and bitch about the Yankees buying a championship.

I am convinced you will one day be the victim of a violent crime.

If this is the best defense Dipre has, God help him.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

http://www.ugo.com/tv/fat-bad-guys/images/entries/eric-cartman.jpg

[bsox0407]

Go away. You have added ZERO to this thread...and you're about the biggest loser here. 1500+ posts, and nothing but shit. Go cry in your Pedroia jersey and bitch about the Yankees buying a championship.

I am convinced you will one day be the victim of a violent crime.

If this is the best defense Dipre has, God help him.

Fixed.
Actually i only weigh 155 so i can't be the biggest loser. If 36 pitches determines a career than Pedroia should be in the minors. According to you no player should be signed if they do bad on 36 pitches.

As for the victim of a violent crime. You are just sad. You must make your parents cry every night wonder what they have brought into this world. I actually i hope i do. You know i need a good ass kicking. But at least i could take being wrong. You on the other hand you have given me no choice but facepalm anytime you post something. Plus what have you contributed to this post other than your made up facts.

[Dipre]

If saying someone can't hit inside fastballs from a 36-pitch sample size isn't making shit up, i don't know what is.

And i bet you're still using Holliday's 2009 numbers to calculate his OPS against AL opponents.

Hilarious.

I'll admit a brianfart confusing ABs with PA's, It's still better than the 36-pitch sample size.

You keep clinging to that, while ignoring the fact that he hit inside pitches all year long.

But that's ok, feel free to continue using what we will refer to as "Gomfarts" as arguments.

I don't need "defense":

Your patchwork arguments are enough.

[bsox0407]

http://www.ugo.com/tv/fat-bad-guys/images/entries/eric-cartman.jpg

:lol::lol:

Suck my balls Mr. Garrison.

[kreinbihl34]

Great post Gom, kudos.

Anyway, to throw my two cents into the argument, I for one, like to focus on the bigger "value" for the team.

By value I like to think not only by value in the sense of how much the player is worth by WAR/Dollars, but how the contract benefits the team in a negative or positive way.

It's a consensus on this board that Holliday will receive a larger contract in terms of money and years. The question being will he be worth it, not now, but towards the end.

I agree Holliday is the more complete player, but Bay makes more sense for this team for a couple of reasons. The first being we don't have to surrender draft picks. I know I'll catch hell for it, but it's still a small reason when comparing two very similar player. Secondly there is no reason to not to believe Bay can prevent the terrible slump he went through if we add another bat in the line-up. Finally with the contracts compared IMO, Bay will end up receiving four years and 64 million, with an option around the aav of the contract. With Holliday it could climb around six years and 110 million. With this is mind, I don't think Holliday is worth it in the long run. There still is a question mark with him in the AL whether posters want to admit it or not. In addition we get to avoid what happened to the Yankees, having older players tied up. I believe that the FO will have atleast one really good corner outfield prospect ready to go in five years, not including Reddick, which will be more productive compared to a 35 year old Holliday.

Yet again, just my opinion.

[Dipre]

Holliday's 29, if he signs for 5 years (which is what he'll likely get unless it's from the Yankees), he'll be 34 by the time the contract ends.

About the AL numbers, did you do the analysis and you're not just talking the talk?

Also, do you know Jason Bay is a DH playing left field, and if given a 4-year contract he'll be the same age as Holliday as he finishes a 5-year one?

Vlaid points, i believe.

[Dipre]

And folks, in Gom's .880 career interleague OPS numbers, he's using the 2009 AL vs NL numbers, which means he was facing NL pitching. I find it hilairous.

Since we're talking about War and this has turned into a Bay vs Holliday discussion:

Holliday: 3.0 WAR in half a season with Oakland.

Bay: 3.5 WAR with Boston.

Hmmm.........

[Gom]

And folks, in Gom's .880 career interleague OPS numbers, he's using the 2009 AL vs NL numbers, which means he was facing NL pitching. I find it hilairous.

Since we're talking about War and this has turned into a Bay vs Holliday discussion:

Holliday: 3.0 WAR in half a season with Oakland.

Bay: 3.5 WAR with Boston.

Hmmm.........

No Dipre. I SUBTRACTED his numbers in 2009 for interleague play. I only counted his interleague numbers minus this season and combined them with his numbers with Oakland.

Reading is fundamental.

[Dipre]

No Dipre. I SUBTRACTED his numbers in 2009 for interleague play. I only counted his interleague numbers minus this season and combined them with his numbers with Oakland.

Reading is fundamental.

His interleague OPS is .880 with 2009.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hollima01&year=&t=b

[26 to 6]

Gom- FACEPALM. You still insist you are right but in fact you are still wrong. Please for the last time you are WRONG and you should get over it. You change your opinion like an ADHD kid changes where his attention is. Please take some R and R and please learn to actually believe real facts not your own made up ones.
I've pretty much tried to stay out of this one since it went downhill about 9 pages ago, but you have issues dude and I felt the need to chime in. I for one agree with Gom that signing Holliday is a mistake. He's provided stats and analysis to back up all his reasons for thinking that (I on the other hand wouldn't have gone to that extreme, I just don't like the guy, let him stay in the NL. The Mets could use a LFer) and the only rebut any of you guys have made is to attack him, tell him he's wrong when the numbers are staring you right in the face, and carrying on a pointless argument for far too long now. Besides, what's the point of even having this argument, it's almost as if you guys are either just LOOKING for a fight, or for some far fetched reason are defending the stance that the Yankees should sign Holliday, which I don't understand. If he's as great as you guys are arguing him to be why not just be content with the fact that Yankee fans don't want him (Gom and myself that is, I can't speak for the rest) rather than going on and on about his worth trying aimlessly to sway our opinion. Why don't we just end this ridiculous discussion now or send it to "Anything Goes" where you guys can continue to have your retarded fun. If Holliday does sign with the Yankees you guys are just gonna cry about it anyway, so save your breath for then.

[kreinbihl34]

Holliday's 29, if he signs for 5 years (which is what he'll likely get unless it's from the Yankees), he'll be 34 by the time the contract ends.

About the AL numbers, did you do the analysis and you're not just talking the talk?

Also, do you know Jason Bay is a DH playing left field, and if given a 4-year contract he'll be the same age as Holliday as he finishes a 5-year one?

Vlaid points, i believe.

Good points.
But in my post I have Holliday getting a six year deal, which is what I believe he will be able to swindle, so in my case he's 35.

Also the 3.0 WAR was not in a half of season, it's 60%, not a huge deal but still 60 or so ABs.

The thing I'm trying to put out or get across is that Matt Holliday is not what this team needs or should spend 18 million dollars a year on for six years. He is not an elite type player worth it, neither is JD Drew at 14 million, but that's free agency. The Red Sox, in again my opinion, are becoming more careful about how to give out contracts because of the failed Lugo and Renteria experiments. I'm not saying they won't had out the funds when necessary, but they are more cautious because of it. To me, with Bay showing he can produce here and the price/year difference between the two, the answer is pretty clear.

[Dipre]

Good points.
But in my post I have Holliday getting a six year deal, which is what I believe he will be able to swindle, so in my case he's 35.

Also the 3.0 WAR was not in a half of season, it's 60%, not a huge deal but still 60 or so ABs.

The thing I'm trying to put out or get across is that Matt Holliday is not what this team needs or should spend 18 million dollars a year on for six years. He is not an elite type player worth it, neither is JD Drew at 14 million, but that's free agency. The Red Sox, in again my opinion, are becoming more careful about how to give out contracts because of the failed Lugo and Renteria experiments. I'm not saying they won't had out the funds when necessary, but they are more cautious because of it. To me, with Bay showing he can produce here and the price/year difference between the two, the answer is pretty clear.

JD Drew has been worth every cent of his salary, and Holliday will be worth every cent of his salary as well.

It's funny you bring Drew up, he's also an NL guy who had never faced AL pitching on a consistent basis.

[Dipre]

I've pretty much tried to stay out of this one since it went downhill about 9 pages ago, but you have issues dude and I felt the need to chime in. I for one agree with Gom that signing Holliday is a mistake. He's provided stats and analysis to back up all his reasons for thinking that (I on the other hand wouldn't have gone to that extreme, I just don't like the guy, let him stay in the NL. The Mets could use a LFer) and the only rebut any of you guys have made is to attack him, tell him he's wrong when the numbers are staring you right in the face, and carrying on a pointless argument for far too long now. Besides, what's the point of even having this argument, it's almost as if you guys are either just LOOKING for a fight, or for some far fetched reason are defending the stance that the Yankees should sign Holliday, which I don't understand. If he's as great as you guys are arguing him to be why not just be content with the fact that Yankee fans don't want him (Gom and myself that is, I can't speak for the rest) rather than going on and on about his worth trying aimlessly to sway our opinion. Why don't we just end this ridiculous discussion now or send it to "Anything Goes" where you guys can continue to have your retarded fun. If Holliday does sign with the Yankees you guys are just gonna cry about it anyway, so save your breath for then.

I expect this post not to be directed at me, and expect that to be clarified, because i justified my point with and analysis and received the bulk of the insults of this thread.

Don't come running your mouth to defend your yankee comrade with such hypocrisy.

[jacksonianmarch]

Can someone be the bigger man here and just let it go. It started with an actual debate about the players he wanted and it wasnt a bad debate. Then it degraded and as usual Gom and Dipre were in the middle of it. I don't give a fuck who started it, everyone continues to perpetuate it. Someone just be the bigger person here.

Also, this should be moved to the Fights and Crap thread.

[Optimist]

The key to GOM's plan for Yankee dominance is that you all really dislike each other and Matt Holliday may or may not be able to hit an inside fastball? That's what I'm getting from this thread. :lol:

[bsox0407]

I've pretty much tried to stay out of this one since it went downhill about 9 pages ago, but you have issues dude and I felt the need to chime in. I for one agree with Gom that signing Holliday is a mistake. He's provided stats and analysis to back up all his reasons for thinking that (I on the other hand wouldn't have gone to that extreme, I just don't like the guy, let him stay in the NL. The Mets could use a LFer) and the only rebut any of you guys have made is to attack him, tell him he's wrong when the numbers are staring you right in the face, and carrying on a pointless argument for far too long now. Besides, what's the point of even having this argument, it's almost as if you guys are either just LOOKING for a fight, or for some far fetched reason are defending the stance that the Yankees should sign Holliday, which I don't understand. If he's as great as you guys are arguing him to be why not just be content with the fact that Yankee fans don't want him (Gom and myself that is, I can't speak for the rest) rather than going on and on about his worth trying aimlessly to sway our opinion. Why don't we just end this ridiculous discussion now or send it to "Anything Goes" where you guys can continue to have your retarded fun. If Holliday does sign with the Yankees you guys are just gonna cry about it anyway, so save your breath for then.

Did you read the entire thread? How does 36 pitches make an entire career?

[Emmz]

God this is a stupid argument. We should have had this covered about 8 or 9 pages ago: 36 pitches is a piss-poor sample size. Why is that so difficult? And the "he can't hit AL pitching" argument is classic, by the way

[26 to 6]

Did you read the entire thread? How does 36 pitches make an entire career?
I did not read the entire thread, and can you blame me? It's 11 pages of back and forth stupidity. However, I don't believe Gom was ever claiming that the 36 AB's was representative of a career, he was just basing his analysis on those 36 AB's. It's one thing for you guys to disagree with the point he was trying to make, but to go on for ELEVEN PAGES about it is pretty ridiculous.

[Dipre]

I did not read the entire thread, and can you blame me? It's 11 pages of back and forth stupidity. However, I don't believe Gom was ever claiming that the 36 AB's was representative of a career, he was just basing his analysis on those 36 AB's. It's one thing for you guys to disagree with the point he was trying to make, but to go on for ELEVEN PAGES about it is pretty ridiculous.

If you didn't read the whole things, then why come here running your mouth saying Gom was the victim of the big bad bullies?

Jesus Christ.

[26 to 6]

I didn't say anyone was a victim, I said I don't see the point for you guys (all of you, Gom included) to have an 11 page argument about this. It's stupid. Agree to disagree, but don't go back and forth with insults for 11 god damn pages. That was Gom's opinion, erroneous or not there was no reason for you guys to blow this up into what it has become. This was a legitimate thread at one point and now it resides here in the wastelands of talksox.com (aka the Anything Goes forum)...and for what reason? Based on what I have read it seems like people like some people like picking fights regardless of the topic at hand. A yankee fan could say the grass is green and some Sox fans would disagree just for the sake of arguing with a Yankee fan.

[Dipre]

I didn't say anyone was a victim, I said I don't see the point for you guys (all of you, Gom included) to have an 11 page argument about this. It's stupid. Agree to disagree, but don't go back and forth with insults for 11 god damn pages. That was Gom's opinion, erroneous or not there was no reason for you guys to blow this up into what it has become. This was a legitimate thread at one point and now it resides here in the wastelands of talksox.com (aka the Anything Goes forum)

The argument between Gom and i was legit. He backed up with stats and analysis but so do i, it could've gone 100 pages, but it was muddled with unnecessary personal attacks.

The analysis would have sufficed, and this wouldn't have been moved to AG.

[Gom]

His interleague OPS is .880 with 2009.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hollima01&year=&t=b

Ummm.....most of the interleague stats came aginst the NL since he was with the AL team.

More lies.....

[Dipre]

Ummm.....most of the interleague stats came aginst the NL since he was with the AL team.

More lies.....

Hahahaha.

You're so confused it's funny.

Think about it. Slowly.

[bsox0407]

Ummm.....most of the interleague stats came aginst the NL since he was with the AL team.

More lies.....

You just don't quit do you? When you are wrong you just throw fuel on the fire and expect people actually to find you reliable. You make me laugh. I finally thought you actually did the smart thing and realize you were wrong and give up.

[Emmz]

I didn't say anyone was a victim, I said I don't see the point for you guys (all of you, Gom included) to have an 11 page argument about this. It's stupid. Agree to disagree, but don't go back and forth with insults for 11 god damn pages. That was Gom's opinion, erroneous or not there was no reason for you guys to blow this up into what it has become. This was a legitimate thread at one point and now it resides here in the wastelands of talksox.com (aka the Anything Goes forum)...and for what reason? Based on what I have read it seems like people like some people like picking fights regardless of the topic at hand. A yankee fan could say the grass is green and some Sox fans would disagree just for the sake of arguing with a Yankee fan.


I for one agree with Gom that signing Holliday is a mistake. He's provided stats and analysis to back up all his reasons for thinking that (I on the other hand wouldn't have gone to that extreme, I just don't like the guy, let him stay in the NL. The Mets could use a LFer) and the only rebut any of you guys have made is to attack him, tell him he's wrong when the numbers are staring you right in the face, and carrying on a pointless argument for far too long now.

o rly nao?

[Emmz]

Ummm.....most of the interleague stats came aginst the NL since he was with the AL team.

More lies.....

...

[26 to 6]

The argument between Gom and i was legit. He backed up with stats and analysis but so do i, it could've gone 100 pages, but it was muddled with unnecessary personal attacks.

The analysis would have sufficed, and this wouldn't have been moved to AG.
My point exactly. It was the personal attacks that doomed it

[Dipre]

My point exactly. It was the personal attacks that doomed it

Read the argument, check who attacked who.

[Gom]

Hahahaha.

You're so confused it's funny.

Think about it. Slowly.

I misread what you wrote. I stand corrected on this point.

However...how many of these numbers were compiled in Coors? Fair assumption to say half?

I'll be happy to keep the Holliday thing going in this one, and leave it out of the other one.

Dipre, explain to me one thing.

If you are right, and he hit .341 on inside fastballs, and obviously does very well against them...

Why would the Dodgers SPECIFICALLY attack him there?

Throwing 34 pitches as fastballs out of 36, and 20 of those pitches inside, is hardly an accident.

Why attack his strength, according to you?

Explain. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Gom]

JD Drew has been worth every cent of his salary, and Holliday will be worth every cent of his salary as well.



You will live to eat these words if he signs with an AL team.

[bsox0407]

Dipre, explain to me one thing.

If you are right, and he hit .341 on inside fastballs, and obviously does very well against them...

Why would the Dodgers SPECIFICALLY attack him there?

Throwing 34 pitches as fastballs out of 36, and 20 of those pitches inside, is hardly an accident.

Why attack his strength, according to you?

Explain. Inquiring minds want to know.

There are these things called slumps. He faced 36 total pitches. Its all the way you set up the pitch. A fastball away change the eye level and you can screw up a hitter and have him over stride on pitch at his hands.

[yankees228]

There are these things called slumps. He faced 36 total pitches. Its all the way you set up the pitch. A fastball away change the eye level and you can screw up a hitter and have him over stride on pitch at his hands.

That's not Gom's question though. He's asking why the Dodgers would choose to attack that way.

[bsox0407]

That's not Gom's question though. He's asking why the Dodgers would choose to attack that way.

And i answered. they could have attacked away and then jammed him on the interior on the strength of him.

[yankees228]

And i answered. they could have attacked away and then jammed him on the interior on the strength of him.

You answered why he might've struggled, not why the Dodgers employed that exact strategy. Although the numbers do not back it up, they might have seen something in Holliday's approach that would lead them to believe he is susceptible to the inside fastball.

[bsox0407]

You answered why he might've struggled, not why the Dodgers employed that exact strategy. Although the numbers do not back it up, they might have seen something in Holliday's approach that would lead them to believe he is susceptible to the inside fastball.

its all about his mind set. A pitcher can set up a batter by pitching away. I was just adding a possibility. Also when a batter goes into a slump. Some pitches that would end up in the crowd will end up in the infielder glove on a weak pop up. he could have changed his approach which could be led to bad coaching on the Cardinals maybe why the batting coach is not coming back.

[Gom]

its all about his mind set. A pitcher can set up a batter by pitching away. I was just adding a possibility. Also when a batter goes into a slump. Some pitches that would end up in the crowd will end up in the infielder glove on a weak pop up. he could have changed his approach which could be led to bad coaching on the Cardinals maybe why the batting coach is not coming back.

I'll be nice and not call you what I think of you.

When you set up a batter, you usually use DECEPTION. You attack him, say inside with fastballs, and then you throw a changeup away. You change the eye level, like you noticed, you change pitch type and location.

However...they threw 94% fastballs. 55% of all th pitches he saw were inside. They specifically attacked 1/3 of the zone over 50% of the time.

This was no accident. This was specific, and intentional. The fact that he slumped...was it due to him not hitting, or good pitching...or some combination of both?

Most of you watched the Yankees in the playoffs. Tex had a horrible post-season offensively. However, I did not detect a general strategy. He just sucked. They got him out on every pitch in every zone. In fact, most of you SAW more playoff games for the Yankees than I did, since I was at every home game.

They threw one pitch, in the same location, more than half the time for all three games. Like I said, no accident.

I'm curious to what Dipre thinks. I don't expect a response other than small sample size, which is completely avoiding the question. Either that, or making up more stats that exist nowhere but in his mind.

[bsox0407]

I'll be nice and not call you what I think of you.

When you set up a batter, you usually use DECEPTION. You attack him, say inside with fastballs, and then you throw a changeup away. You change the eye level, like you noticed, you change pitch type and location.

However...they threw 94% fastballs. 55% of all th pitches he saw were inside. They specifically attacked 1/3 of the zone over 50% of the time.

This was no accident. This was specific, and intentional. The fact that he slumped...was it due to him not hitting, or good pitching...or some combination of both?

Most of you watched the Yankees in the playoffs. Tex had a horrible post-season offensively. However, I did not detect a general strategy. He just sucked. They got him out on every pitch in every zone. In fact, most of you SAW more playoff games for the Yankees than I did, since I was at every home game.

They threw one pitch, in the same location, more than half the time for all three games. Like I said, no accident.

I'm curious to what Dipre thinks. I don't expect a response other than small sample size, which is completely avoiding the question. Either that, or making up more stats that exist nowhere but in his mind.

I was a catcher. sometimes the FB is all about where you place it. if you put it on the lower corner it can also change the eye-level. Im glad you know that though. the best pitch is the FB its all about placement. you can place it on the corners and be more effective than a curveball.

[bsox0407]

However...they threw 94% fastballs. 55% of all th pitches he saw were inside. They specifically attacked 1/3 of the zone over 50% of the time.

60% of the time it works everytime.

[Gom]

Pitching to high schoolers is a little different, don't you think? Most pitchers have nothing but a fastball in high school and a "show-me" curveball.

Still, none of you have answered my question. I shouldn't be surprised. Neither you or Dipre have answered any question or backed up anything with solid stats yet.

Again..why attack him with fastballs inside if that is his supposed strength?

[bsox0407]

Pitching to high schoolers is a little different, don't you think? Most pitchers have nothing but a fastball in high school and a "show-me" curveball.

Still, none of you have answered my question. I shouldn't be surprised. Neither you or Dipre have answered any question or backed up anything with solid stats yet.

Again..why attack him with fastballs inside if that is his supposed strength?

Have you ever played the number one high school in your state with a SP who is headed off to Seton Hall. High 80s fastball. Devastating CB and a 78 mph changeup and don't forget the Cutter. His FB devastated the players more than the Curveball. It is different in a small respect. But the way you pitch is the same. A lot of pitches thrive off pitching into the danger zones of the hitter. Lefty pitchers also have a specific advantage with the movement that is more evident than a righties. he could be getting fooled against lefties with the pitch tailing back in.

Plus could it have been possible that some of the FBs were 2 seamers or do you know for a fact that they were all 4 seamers. which would have led him to chase with the inner tail. and get jammed

[Gom]

Still never answered the question. Not surprised.

[bsox0407]

Still never answered the question. Not surprised.

I did maybe you should try reading it. Sometimes the Best strategy is going after a players strength. the player may get overeager. he only got 20 on the inside of the 34 pitches. that means 14 pitches that help set up those pitches.

So you did not answer my question which could lead to the explanation of your question better. Were they all 4 seamers or mixed in with 2 seamers and cutters?

[Gom]

I did maybe you should try reading it. Sometimes the Best strategy is going after a players strength. the player may get overeager. he only got 20 on the inside of the 34 pitches. that means 14 pitches that help set up those pitches.

So you did not answer my question which could lead to the explanation of your question better. Were they all 4 seamers or mixed in with 2 seamers and cutters?

I don't know, as I deleted the games from my DVR. They looked to be four seamers from what I remember for the most part.

The point is..they didn't set him up with anything else. The enitre post-season they threw him TWO...TWO!!!! non-fastballs. He hit one of them out of the park. That's it.

[bsox0407]

I don't know, as I deleted the games from my DVR. They looked to be four seamers from what I remember for the most part.

The point is..they didn't set him up with anything else. The enitre post-season they threw him TWO...TWO!!!! non-fastballs. He hit one of them out of the park. That's it.

Yes They just threw him straight as shit FB on the inside edge the whole series. that would just be stupid. i bet there was a mix of 2 seamers cutters and 4 seamers in there. all with different tail confusing the hitter. same as you said changing speed except in this case changing direction.

[Gom]

Yes They just threw him straight as shit FB on the inside edge the whole series. that would just be stupid. i bet there was a mix of 2 seamers cutters and 4 seamers in there. all with different tail confusing the hitter. same as you said changing speed except in this case changing direction.

Like I said, I don't remember clearly because I deleted the games already.

Unlike others, I won't make shit up. Irrespective, they threw him one pitch type in one location over half the time.

To his supposed strength.

Either they were idiots who got lucky, or they saw something that we didn't.

Basically either the Dodgers advance scouts were unbelievably lucky idiots who pitched to Holliday's strength [fastballs] over 94% of time and specifically to his biggest strength [inside fastballs] 55% o the time, and not only succeeded in spite of the odds, but fucking thrived on it, or Dipre is the idiot.

It's one or the other, really.

Take your pick.

[bsox0407]

Like I said, I don't remember clearly because I deleted the games already.

Unlike others, I won't make shit up. Irrespective, they threw him one pitch type in one location over half the time.

To his supposed strength.

Either they were idiots who got lucky, or they saw something that we didn't.

Basically either the Dodgers advance scouts were unbelievably lucky idiots who pitched to Holliday's strength [fastballs] over 94% of time and specifically to his biggest strength [inside fastballs] 55% o the time, and not only succeeded in spite of the odds, but fucking thrived on it, or Gom is the idiot.

It's one or the other, really.

Take your pick.

Fixed
This is my choice. you still don't understand the difference between a cut fastball a 2 seam fastball and a 4 seam fastball? This amazes me.

Have you ever heard the Ted Williams quote about baseball and hitting? it might clear this up a bit for you.

[Gom]

I do know the difference between fastballs, you fucking imbecile. I also have forgotten more baseball than you will ever know.

So, because they could have been four seamers, two seamers, or cut fastballs, the Dodger pitchers, with two exceptions, decided not to throw:

Change-ups, Circle Changes, Curveballs, 12-6 Curves, Sinkers, Splitters, Forkballs, Screwballs, Sliders, Slurve, Gyroballs, Knuckleballs, KnuckleCurves, 3-Finger Change-ups, Palmballs, Straight Curves, and the Eephus pitch. I probably forgot a few pitches, but you get the jist.

Not only is he an idiot, but you're a fucking imbecile for defending his point. Honestly...let him answer, and go the fuck away. You've added NOTHING here, except to prove you're fucking clueless. I want to hear what he says to defend himself, because if you were his defense attorney, he'd be sent to the electric chair for shoplifting at Walmart.

Dipre, again...defend your point. Here is the question again:




Dipre, explain to me one thing.

If you are right, and he hit .341 on inside fastballs, and obviously does very well against them...

Why would the Dodgers SPECIFICALLY attack him there?

Throwing 34 pitches as fastballs out of 36, and 20 of those pitches inside, is hardly an accident.

Why attack his strength, according to you?

Explain. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Dipre]

Game plans for hitters differ from series to series, with LHH on the mound at Dodger stadium, it was a good idea to keep him from extending his arms and drive the ball out of the park, because i told you, (and of course you ignored and didn't care to do the research), that the few times Pujols got pitched to, he also got attacked inside.

Inquiring minds want to know how you keep clinging to a 36-pitch sample size.

[Dipre]

You answered why he might've struggled, not why the Dodgers employed that exact strategy. Although the numbers do not back it up, they might have seen something in Holliday's approach that would lead them to believe he is susceptible to the inside fastball.

Left-handed pitchers are not adept to throw outside fastballs to RHH, so why risk throwing him meatballs when Holliday's known to drive middle and outside fastballs outside of the park?. Also, are the Dodgers the only team with advanced scouts in MLB? Why wasn't this "weakness" that was so obvious for Gom to pick up not exploited by other teams? Could it be that it was just a game plan to play to their pitcher's strengths and park dimensions?

Again, check Gameday.

The few times that Pujols got pitched to, they also tried hard to get him to swing at inside fastballs.

Please explain to me why they did that then?

Maybe Pujols is also susceptible to the inside fastball. They did throw it to him quite a bit. It doesn't matter that he hammers them throughout his career. It just matters that they threw them to him in the NLDS.

Jesus Christ.

[bsox0407]

I do know the difference between fastballs, you fucking imbecile. I also have forgotten more baseball than you will ever know.

So, because they could have been four seamers, two seamers, or cut fastballs, the Dodger pitchers, with two exceptions, decided not to throw:

Change-ups, Circle Changes, Curveballs, 12-6 Curves, Sinkers, Splitters, Forkballs, Screwballs, Sliders, Slurve, Gyroballs, Knuckleballs, KnuckleCurves, 3-Finger Change-ups, Palmballs, Straight Curves, and the Eephus pitch. I probably forgot a few pitches, but you get the jist.

Not only is he an idiot, but you're a fucking imbecile for defending his point. Honestly...let him answer, and go the fuck away. You've added NOTHING here, except to prove you're fucking clueless. I want to hear what he says to defend himself, because if you were his defense attorney, he'd be sent to the electric chair for shoplifting at Walmart.

Dipre, again...defend your point. Here is the question again:

I see you do not understand baseball enough to get why Rivera Gets people out. he has a Cutter a 4 seamer and a 2 seamer. Plus i know a wicked lot about baseball. I guess you don't get baseball.

Please explain to me why Rivera with only these three pitches can he dominate most hitters.

[Dipre]

Forget it, he doesn't understand what a "game plan" is.

The hardest pitch to hit for a RHH from a LHP pitcher with good velocity is inside heat. I never said hitting fastballs was "Holliday's strength", he's making it up. As usual.

The fact is, in a short series, you play to your pitcher's and your park's strengths. It was simply a gameplan, not the holy-grail to get Matt Holliday out like our 36-pitch sample size friend would lead you to believe.

With scouting as advanced as it is now, if Holliday had a definite hole in his swing against inside fastballs, it would have been exploited already.

Repeating your argument and using DV-R doesn't make a senseless argument correct, because, by your argument, the Dodgers are the only team with advanced scouting in MLB.

That is just plain ridiculous.

Ad-nauseum argumentation, anyone?

[Spudboy]

Lol.

[Gom]

Left-handed pitchers are not adept to throw outside fastballs to RHH, so why risk throwing him meatballs when Holliday's known to drive middle and outside fastballs outside of the park?. Also, are the Dodgers the only team with advanced scouts in MLB? Why wasn't this "weakness" that was so obvious for Gom to pick up not exploited by other teams? Could it be that it was just a game plan to play to their pitcher's strengths and park dimensions?

Again, check Gameday.

The few times that Pujols got pitched to, they also tried hard to get him to swing at inside fastballs.

Please explain to me why they did that then?

Maybe Pujols is also susceptible to the inside fastball. They did throw it to him quite a bit. It doesn't matter that he hammers them throughout his career. It just matters that they threw them to him in the NLDS.

Jesus Christ.
Dude...honestly, have you NOT MADE ANYTHING UP?

They threw him more than half the pitches on the outside part of the plate. Most of them outside the zone, true. However, most of the pitches were outside the zone. They pretty much threw the kitchen sink at him, and mostly out of the zone and away.

Enough. You still haven't answered anything. I reposted the question twice. You failed to answer it. Again...for the final time, why pitch to a batters strength? That's all fine and dandy to try to tie him up, but if that happens to be his strength, why would you do it?

The only reason to do it is if it is NOT his strength. That would mean you're an idiot. The other posibility is that they were incredibly lucky and their scouts were idiots.


I've pretty much tried to stay out of this one since it went downhill about 9 pages ago, but you have issues dude and I felt the need to chime in. I for one agree with Gom that signing Holliday is a mistake. He's provided stats and analysis to back up all his reasons for thinking that (I on the other hand wouldn't have gone to that extreme, I just don't like the guy, let him stay in the NL. The Mets could use a LFer) and the only rebut any of you guys have made is to attack him, tell him he's wrong when the numbers are staring you right in the face, and carrying on a pointless argument for far too long now. Besides, what's the point of even having this argument, it's almost as if you guys are either just LOOKING for a fight, or for some far fetched reason are defending the stance that the Yankees should sign Holliday, which I don't understand. If he's as great as you guys are arguing him to be why not just be content with the fact that Yankee fans don't want him (Gom and myself that is, I can't speak for the rest) rather than going on and on about his worth trying aimlessly to sway our opinion. Why don't we just end this ridiculous discussion now or send it to "Anything Goes" where you guys can continue to have your retarded fun. If Holliday does sign with the Yankees you guys are just gonna cry about it anyway, so save your breath for then.

THIS.

I've backed up what I said with numbers that are ACCURATE. You're only defense is sample size. I saw it is very relevant due to the fact that it was specific in both pitch type and location. We can agree to disagree there, fine.

You're arguing just to argue, and you lost 10 pages ago.

You've brought in incorrect stats [.341], irrelevant stats [interleague stats, which combine both home and away for his career], and just plain made up stats. You've questioned MY numerical analysis, and have been proven false. [Yes, he did have 400 PA with Oakland]. You've selected chose statistics when ignoring the rest that don't fit your argument. [You stated he had a 2.45 wFBc in the NL, and 1.2 total, while ignoring the fact that it was 0.18 in the AL and I stated he didn't hit well in the AL]. You stated that the easiest pitch for LHP to throw to RHH is the inside fastball. I'm not sure of this, but, let's go with it. He had 6 PA against lefties. 2-5 with a HBP. Yet, lefties, righties...they all pitched him the same.

Enough. You've lost this debate and badly. You've destroyed any credibility you had by lying, and making shit up, and questioning my statistical numbers.

You can agree or disagree. The more intellegent posters in this thread have agreed with me, the dumber ones with you.

However, much more importantly than that, you've damaged your own reputation here by lying, making shit up, and then questioning others. I doubt there is anyone here who followed this thread who will EVER take a number quoted by you without double-checking it. That, my friend, is very sad.

It's over. It's been over. Learn from it, and move on.

[Dipre]

Dude...honestly, have you NOT MADE ANYTHING UP?

They threw him more than half the pitches on the outside part of the plate. Most of them outside the zone, true. However, most of the pitches were outside the zone. They pretty much threw the kitchen sink at him, and mostly out of the zone and away.

Enough. You still haven't answered anything. I reposted the question twice. You failed to answer it. Again...for the final time, why pitch to a batters strength? That's all fine and dandy to try to tie him up, but if that happens to be his strength, why would you do it?

The only reason to do it is if it is NOT his strength. That would mean you're an idiot. The other posibility is that they were incredibly lucky and their scouts were idiots.

Game 2, Clayton Kershaw. LOL

[Dipre]

THIS.

I've backed up what I said with numbers that are ACCURATE. You're only defense is sample size. I saw it is very relevant due to the fact that it was specific in both pitch type and location. We can agree to disagree there, fine.

You're arguing just to argue, and you lost 10 pages ago.

You've brought in incorrect stats [.341], irrelevant stats [interleague stats, which combine both home and away for his career], and just plain made up stats. You've questioned MY numerical analysis, and have been proven false. [Yes, he did have 400 PA with Oakland]. You've selected chose statistics when ignoring the rest that don't fit your argument. [You stated he had a 2.45 wFBc in the NL, and 1.2 total, while ignoring the fact that it was 0.18 in the AL and I stated he didn't hit well in the AL]. You stated that the easiest pitch for LHP to throw to RHH is the inside fastball. I'm not sure of this, but, let's go with it. He had 6 PA against lefties. 2-5 with a HBP. Yet, lefties, righties...they all pitched him the same.

Enough. You've lost this debate and badly. You've destroyed any credibility you had by lying, and making shit up, and questioning my statistical numbers.

You can agree or disagree. The more intellegent posters in this thread have agreed with me, the dumber ones with you.

However, much more importantly than that, you've damaged your own reputation here by lying, making shit up, and then questioning others. I doubt there is anyone here who followed this thread who will EVER take a number quoted by you without double-checking it. That, my friend, is very sad.

It's over. It's been over. Learn from it, and move on.

This post gave me the biggest laugh in my time here on Talksox.

Your whole argument is based on speculation, inaccurate numbers and a 36-pitch sample size.

Your stance that only the Dodger's scouts recognized this absolutely definitive and exploitable weakness in Holliday's swing is asinine, laughable and legitimately laugh-inducing.

The sample size IS the only defense i need, because you haven't stuck to a single argument, but you flip-flop them as you see fit every time things don't go your way. If your initial argument was accurate, why change to 13 different arguments?

It's funny, really.

Keep making more hilarious stuff up, please.

[Gom]

This post gave me the biggest laugh in my time here on Talksox.

Your whole argument is based on speculation, inaccurate numbers and a 36-pitch sample size.

Your stance that only the Dodger's scouts recognized this absolutely definitive and exploitable weakness in Holliday's swing is asinine, laughable and legitimately laugh-inducing.

The sample size IS the only defense i need, because you haven't stuck to a single argument, but flip-flopping them as you see fit every time things don't go your way.

It's funny, really.

How have I flip-flopped? If anything, your sorry ass has flip-flopped, trying to change the argument. I've showed that he was not shown to be the hitter he was in Colorado, because he saw more pitches in Oakland.

The sample size is, IMO, relevant due to the facts of him not performing well in Oakland, and being specifically attacked in the NLDS. Again, they are idiots, not you.

I'm going to make an assumption here....that if a hitter hits .341 on a pitch, or in a zone, and his average is .313, then that is a strength, isn't it? [It would be in any world but Dipre's]

As for flip-flopping..enjoy this. They are all your words, after all.
[QUOTE=Dipre;500041;]
I never said hitting fastballs was "Holliday's strength", he's making it up. As usual.


As you can see in the chart, he hit .368 on middle inside pitches, .276 up and in, and .381 down and in in 2009.

You saying he's susceptible to the inside pitch is a fabrication.



I never said hitting fastballs was "Holliday's strength", he's making it up. As usual.


Again, he hit a .341 cumulative batting average on the inside part of the plate, if you face mostly RH pitchers, they mostly don't throw breaking stuff inside to RH hitters, so logic tells you , it's mostly fastballs.


I never said hitting fastballs was "Holliday's strength", he's making it up. As usual.



This is about fastballs in every part of the plate. He saw 61% fastballs last years, and if you know anything about pitch selection, you'll know that righties usually don't throw inside breaking stuff to righties, and lefties usually throw inside fastballs to lefties due to handedness. So you could easily make a case for the fact that more than 70% of the pitches that Holliday saw in the inside of the plate were fastballs. If he hit a cumulative .341 against them. Explain to me how can't he hit the inside fastball again?



I never said hitting fastballs was "Holliday's strength", he's making it up. As usual.


Keep making more hilarious stuff up, please.

Honestly..if you knew how many people IM'd me, and all but one were Red Sox fans, basically laughing at you but not wanting to get involved, you'd probably never post here again.

[Dipre]

[QUOTE=Dipre;500041;]This post gave me the biggest laugh in my time here on Talksox.

Your whole argument is based on speculation, inaccurate numbers and a 36-pitch sample size.

Your stance that only the Dodger's scouts recognized this absolutely definitive and exploitable weakness in Holliday's swing is asinine, laughable and legitimately laugh-inducing.

The sample size IS the only defense i need, because you haven't stuck to a single argument, but flip-flopping them as you see fit every time things don't go your way.

It's funny, really.

How have I flip-flopped? If anything, your sorry ass has flip-flopped, trying to change the argument. I've showed that he was not shown to be the hitter he was in Colorado, because he saw more pitches in Oakland.

The sample size is, IMO, relevant due to the facts of him not performing well in Oakland, and being specifically attacked in the NLDS. Again, they are idiots, not you.

I'm going to make an assumption here....that if a hitter hits .341 on a pitch, or in a zone, and his average is .313, then that is a strength, isn't it? [It would be in any world but Dipre's]

As for flip-flopping..enjoy this. They are all your words, after all.









Honestly..if you knew how many people IM'd me, and all but one were Red Sox fans, basically laughing at you but not wanting to get involved, you'd probably never post here again.

Oh, you mean the response to every one of your argument "change of hearts"?

The hypocrisy is astounding.

About the PM's, i could say the same thing, but the words "stupid" were not the ones used.
Several stronger ones were.

However, unlike me, you would keep posting. I have shame and all.

The use of this argument is hilarious by the way. It's the most pathetic argument defense i have ever heard. Congrats.

[yankees228]

Left-handed pitchers are not adept to throw outside fastballs to RHH, so why risk throwing him meatballs when Holliday's known to drive middle and outside fastballs outside of the park?. Also, are the Dodgers the only team with advanced scouts in MLB? Why wasn't this "weakness" that was so obvious for Gom to pick up not exploited by other teams? Could it be that it was just a game plan to play to their pitcher's strengths and park dimensions?

Again, check Gameday.

The few times that Pujols got pitched to, they also tried hard to get him to swing at inside fastballs.

Please explain to me why they did that then?

Maybe Pujols is also susceptible to the inside fastball. They did throw it to him quite a bit. It doesn't matter that he hammers them throughout his career. It just matters that they threw them to him in the NLDS.

Jesus Christ.

I don't disagree with you. I would take Holliday in a heartbeat. I was just pointing out that the question hadn't necessarily been answered up to that point.

[italstallianion]

I confess to having PM'd GOM, but I only messaged him so he'd think that he was right and that he'd continue the hilarity. I also didn't want him to cower in his stupidity and hang himself, so out of pity I told him that I supported him, and I almost kept a straight face while doing it. ;)

[Dipre]

I don't disagree with you. I would take Holliday in a heartbeat. I was just pointing out that the question hadn't necessarily been answered up to that point.

I mentioned that before, perhaps you overlooked it.


I confess to having PM'd GOM, but I only messaged him so he'd think that he was right and that he'd continue the hilarity. I also didn't want him to cower in his stupidity and hang himself, so out of pity I told him that I supported him, and I almost kept a straight face while doing it. ;)

Thanks for fessing up. :lol:

[Keeper]

I can't believe this argument is still going on.

[Coco's Disciples]

Awesome. Locked.