Manny vs. Pedro

[GrassInZimsTeeth]

These are two of highest paid players in Major League Baseball history. Given that the contributions of position players are vastly different than pitchers, who would you consider to be more valuable? The contrasts are especially true in the American League, especially since the institution of the DH. What makes a baseball player "valuable"? How would you rank the value of the types of contributions a player can make? Is OPS and HRs more valuable than ERA and Ks? I'm curious to know what people think because these are the stats the two guys in the poll essentially represent.

[Tek04]

Definately ramirez...are pitching is stacked this season and are Offense isnt as good as last years and manny's bat in the lineup poses a threat to any team that we face.

[Benny9Sox7]

i think manny is more vauable for one, hes been great this year and is acually media friendly and seems like he could become more of a leader on this team... i think pedro is kinda becoming a cancer for the sox with all this about his contract

[yeszir]

K's are really a useless stat, first of all. There have been great pitchers that never got strikeouts. It's a show stat mostly and it doesnt always translate into greatness.

Anyway, I think Manny is more valuable because of something that you brought up in a previous thread. Manny plays 9 innings, 162 (theoretically) games a year, Pedro plays 7 every 5 days. Manny consistently produces, Pedro gives his team a shot to win once a week. Manny does that all the time.

But that doesn't mean hitters are infinitely more valuable than pitchers. You need quality pitchers to win. A great hitter, in my mind, is more valuable than a great pitcher, but a good pitcher is better than a good hitter. If that makes any sense. :D

[yawkeyway]

I dont know. As you said grassinzimsteeth, its almost impossible to compare batters to pitchers in terms of values. You need to compare within a specific group. Heck, its hard to compare a secondbaseman to a leftfielder, let alone a pitcher to a left fielder.

Anyway, with this impossible task looming over me :D, I chose Pedro simply because of what he means to the town (Manny was just bought, plain and simple, and even though Pedro was too, it seems like it is to a lesser extent). He can be the most dominant pitcher in baseball, and his outings often set the tone of an entire series. He gives us momentum, which really cant be quanitified, but its important nonetheless.

[roary]

I decided not to vote after reading your entire post :D. It is impossible to compare the value of a hitter to that of a pitcher, unless its Manny Ramirez to John Wasdin. They have completely different stats, have completely different effects on the game, play with a different frequency, etc.

Who do I LIKE more? Pedro. Who is more valuable? I have no idea.

[Benny9Sox7]

That is true. It is hard do determine whom is better between a pitcher and a hitter.

[RoyNHSox]

Isn't there some kind of statistical measurement that allows comparisons of this type? I'll be honest, I'm no stat guy, but aren't they called Win Shares?

[DuffyCliff]

Yes.

However, Win Shares aren't calculated until the end of the regular-season.

Right now I'd obviously have to say Manny has been more valuable thus far. If Pedro puts together his usual nice string of "Pedro-like" starts, then you have to go with the Starting Pitching as being the more valuable aspect. That is yet to happen thus far, but I believe we are getting close.

Pedro has done a good job of lowering his value so far. He really hasn't been as mediocre as his ERA says, it's just that when he's been bad... he's been bad

04/05: 6.0 IP, 7 H, 2 ER, 1 BB, 5 SO - L
04/10: 7.2 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 7 SO - W
04/15: 5.0 IP, 8 H, 7 ER, 4 BB, 3 SO - ND
04/20: 7.0 IP, 5 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 6 SO - W
04/25: 7.0 IP, 4 H, 0 ER, 1 BB, 7 SO - W
05/01: 4.0 IP, 9 H, 6 ER, 1 BB, 3 SO - L
05/06: 7.0 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 3 BB, 8 SO - W

Definitely not the same guy.

He's already had as many bad starts in 7 this season than he had in 58 in 1999-2000. His uber-fastball is no longer there nor are his K's even though he is still among the AL Leaders :lol:. However, it's hard to argue that when he's been "on", the end result (IP, ER) really hasn't been all that much different than the Old Pedro. Even as far as durability. There were 3 instances this season in which I felt Pedro could complete the game, but Francona has been extremely consistent about taking him out after a certain pitch count. I personally hate this. You have to go on performance, not pitch count. Pedro can still get outs after 105 pitches, he's done it all his career. He is not THAT weak. Let him "earn" his money.

When all is said and done, Pedro is one of the smartest and best pitchers in the history of baseball. He is going to start heating up, he's going to be dominant. If he can stay off the D.L. this season and make around 32 starts, I think he'll win 18-22 games with his team, have an ERA less than/equal to 2.50 and strikeout 200+ for the 8th time in his career. If he accomplishes all this, I don't think the Innings will be much of an issue to people and Pedro will have a good shot at a 4th-should be-5th Cy Young Award.

[yeszir]

About the Cy Young thing, I dont really see that much competition from other pitchers in the AL other than Schilling really. As you said, if he can stay off of the DL and can get over the 200 ip hump, he has a great shot at it.

Even though he doesn't have his old velocity, he has shown flashes of his former self (like in his last start), so if he can shake whatever ails him, he'll be even better than we expect.

[YanksHater213]

the only reason manny is so much more valuable to us than petey is because of his consistency. petey doesnt have much conisitency for us right now. manny and petey are both great players but manny is the mvp of our team

[DuffyCliff]

Originally posted by yeszir@May 9 2004, 07:34 AM
About the Cy Young thing, I dont really see that much competition from other pitchers in the AL other than Schilling really. As you said, if he can stay off of the DL and can get over the 200 ip hump, he has a great shot at it.

Even though he doesn't have his old velocity, he has shown flashes of his former self (like in his last start), so if he can shake whatever ails him, he'll be even better than we expect.

I dont really see that much competition from other pitchers in the AL other than Schilling really.

Hudson.

[TheFens]

Pedro should beat out Hudson easily. Well, not easily, but hopefully he'll beat him out. Pedro will end up having 1.5 times the strikeouts, and a lowe ERA (both have similar ERAs right now, but Pedro isn't pitching too well).

He sure deserves it! If his numbers arent unanimously the most impressive this year, they should remember when they gave it to Zito over him! That sucked!

[TheFens]

Whoops. I forgot to add my input to the Manny/Pedro thing. I, too, vote Manny. Not because Pedro isn't a great player. No, he's the best pitcher in the AL (as my cy young vote shows), but because of consistency and every day consistency.

Win shares can compare players I guess, but I don't trust them completely. This team could still win without Pedro. Without Manny, however, it would be tought. That's why he is more valuable right now.

[DuffyCliff]

It would be tough without either of them. They could still be a "winning team" if they lost one or the other for nothing, but they wouldn't and won't win the World Series without them.

I can't really see going to battle with the Yanks or Angels without Pedro... not to mention the pitching juggernaut that is the Chicago Cubs. The Red Sox would be completely obliterated by Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Clement, Maddux... they may anyway.. if they even get to the Series.

[yeszir]

Lol, its the cubs you're tlaking about, something bad is bound to happen to them and they won't make it. Think Steve Bartman.

Anway, another thing I thought of is the fact that the team (albeit with different players) HAS won without pedro in the past. He's been on the DL for a long time over the course of his redsox career, and the team has survived.

[GreenMonsterSeats]

Manny based on his consistent batting, his leadership, and ability to maintain focus with the constant media attention (something that seems to bother Pedro and rattle him from time to time).

[DuffyCliff]

Originally posted by yeszir@May 10 2004, 06:03 AM
Lol, its the cubs you're tlaking about, something bad is bound to happen to them and they won't make it. Think Steve Bartman.

Anway, another thing I thought of is the fact that the team (albeit with different players) HAS won without pedro in the past. He's been on the DL for a long time over the course of his redsox career, and the team has survived.
Yes, they've won without Pedro before but a lot of that was because of where Pedro had them positioned when he DID pitch. Pedro literally carried the team on his back with some offensive help from Nomar.

[Jtfire99]

Manny is hitting really well now and if he hits like this for the rest of the season and on, he'll be more valuable.

[67Bleachers]

I voted for Ramirez.

It's a tough and interesting question.

Before reading the posts I was thinking Pedro is the guy.

Predominantly, this thread believes that trying to answer this survey is a Catch-22 situation and I agree.

I decided to use the KISS principle and decided that Pedro gets what, 30 starts with an opportunity to win 30 games? Manny gets 150+ starts with the opportunity to win 'em all.

Simplistic but that's how my finite brain emerged from the, (whaddayacallit?) the "cononundrum" (sp.), posed by our fine fellow fan.

[TheFens]

What is the KISS principle? Oh, right, lol keep it simple stupid, right? Yea, it is kind of tough to answer, but I guess we've decided on Manny because of the 150 games to win it theory.

[GrassInZimsTeeth]

Originally posted by 67Bleachers@May 12 2004, 06:11 PM
Predominantly, this thread believes that trying to answer this survey is a Catch-22 situation and I agree.

It's true, trying to compare pitchers to position players is tough but that's what the MVP vote is all about. I often try to imagine how to differentiate the two groups, but almost always side with the position players. Now with the dawn of specialty pitchers (closers, set up men, etc.) it's hard to say who's the best pitcher out there. Gagne slammed the door last season and had a microscopic ERA and WHIP, but was he the best pitcher in the MLB? He influenced more games, but pitched less innings than most of the top tier starters.

This is really a modern era phenomenon because back in the day pitchers were the most athletic guys on the team. Now you get dough boys like El Guapo and C.C. Sabathia making a mockery out of the game. Not to mention that also, as part of the modern era, pitchers can't hit! At virtually every level of baseball from little league up through college pitchers are often some of the best hitters out there! If that were still the case today it would make voting for MVP much different.

[67Bleachers]

Originally posted by TheFens@May 12 2004, 08:12 PM
What is the KISS principle? Oh, right, lol keep it simple stupid, right? Yea, it is kind of tough to answer, but I guess we've decided on Manny because of the 150 games to win it theory.
Yeah, I chose the "simple" and the "stupid" I guess.