Dontrelle to Yanks?

[Gom]

Both Foxsports and WFAN radio report that the Yankees have approached the Marlins about Dontrelle Willis, offering Humberto Sanchez and Melky Caberra. No word on the Marlins response [I think they would be nuts to agree, but I can hope, can't I?].

http://www.benmaller.com/#mlb_rumors_notes

[yeszir]

Ahhhh!

[Youk Of The Nation]

Please man, my blood is like pudding. Dont do that.

[BSN07]

GOM your gonna cause heart attacks for the weak hearted mebers of RSN with post like this:D
Yes it be a wonderful pick up for you guys, but i'm glad you kept your feet firmly on the ground by saying you could dream couldn't you:thumbsup: . To get Willis, your probably looking at Melky( which he realy isn't the type of OF they want, they want a CF, and Melky is shady at best in CF), Sanchez, and probably two more high prospects. I think you would have to depart with your farm ace Hughes.

The reason I think it would be so hi of a cost is as soon as teams find out that Willis is available, your going to have alot of teams interested and driving up the price. Most teams including the Red Sox( not saying they are but using them for argument sake) would easily beable to match a Melky, Sanchez package. EX. They could easily throw in Crisp/Ellsbury and two more of there arms that are in the minors. Which in my mind and not just because i'm a Sox fan is a better deal then what the NYY are offering. If Willis goes to NY, just expect to lose alot more prospects/players then just the two.

[Coco's Disciples]

This was posted on MLBTradeRumors...

All can relax.

[jsinger121]

Marlins easily could do better than Melky Cabrera and Humberto Sanchez.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

That is a pretty silly trade offer.

[a700hitter]

The Marlins would ask for Wang and Melky, and maybe settle on Hughes and Melky.

[Gom]

I wouldn't trade Wang for Willis straight up.

I'm just reporting what I heard driving home, and then found online, with the disclaimer that the Marlins would be nuts to agree. Maybe Marlins ownership hates the Sox, and figures that getting Ramirez and Sanchez wasn't enough. Who knows?

[a700hitter]

I wouldn't trade Wang for Willis straight up.

I'm just reporting what I heard driving home, and then found online, with the disclaimer that the Marlins would be nuts to agree. Maybe Marlins ownership hates the Sox, and figures that getting Ramirez and Sanchez wasn't enough. Who knows?I am sure that Marlins' management is motivated by hatred of the Red Sox. ;) Too bad they didn't take that into account before they beat the Yankees in the 2003 World Series.

[riverside sluggers]

Josh Beckett
Marlins get Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Harvey Garcia, Jesus Delgado

Dontrelle Willis
Marlins get Melky Cabrera, Humberto Sanchez

Yeah Marlins asked that much from Boston because they have pure hatred for them... then take it up the ass by the Yanks for giving up Dontrelle for a lot less than Boston's package for Beckett?

[TheKilo]

LOL.

[nickw308810]

We also got Lowell, and the player everyone forgets Guiellermo Mota, who was supposed to be a huge part of our bullpen before he was included in the Crisp deal. Oh well though, he has fell off since his days setting up Gagne.

[Soxfan#1]

They said no to Hansen and Elsburry yet they're supposed to be considering this?

[riverside sluggers]

We also got Lowell, and the player everyone forgets Guiellermo Mota, who was supposed to be a huge part of our bullpen before he was included in the Crisp deal. Oh well though, he has fell off since his days setting up Gagne.

The Sox had to take Lowell because it was a salary dump attached to Beckett, and Mota was added because of Boston's concerns about preliniary bad reports on Beckett's shoulder

[Coco's Disciples]

I wouldn't trade Wang for Willis straight up.

I'm just reporting what I heard driving home, and then found online, with the disclaimer that the Marlins would be nuts to agree. Maybe Marlins ownership hates the Sox, and figures that getting Ramirez and Sanchez wasn't enough. Who knows?


Yea since the Yanks are everyone's favorite team!

[nickw308810]

The Sox had to take Lowell because it was a salary dump attached to Beckett, and Mota was added because of Boston's concerns about preliniary bad reports on Beckett's shoulder
Agreed, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Lowell is a decent hitting 3B with gold glove caliber defense and Mota was a guy with some upside as well. We didn't just get Beckett in return, we got 2 other decent major leaguers. I for one was happy with how Lowell played and Mota had some trade value for us. You can't look at the deal without factoring those two into it.

[ARod2212]

I've mentioned this possible trade a couple of times, before the rumors started. Don't sell Cabrera short defensively, he can play all three positions well.

Personally I'm not that high on Willis, and probably wouldn't trade Melky and Sanchez.

[Gom]

Yea since the Yanks are everyone's favorite team!

No, I think Wang is a better pitcher than Dontrelle. That's why. I would trade Wang for Halliday or Santana, because they are better...get the drift here?

[Coco's Disciples]

No, I think Wang is a better pitcher than Dontrelle. That's why. I would trade Wang for Halliday or Santana, because they are better...get the drift here?

Not exactly sure what you're talking about here...read the 2nd half of the quote.

[TheKilo]

No, I think Wang is a better pitcher than Dontrelle. That's why. I would trade Wang for Halliday or Santana, because they are better...get the drift here?



You're quite the homer, aren't you?

On what planet is Wang a better pitcher than Dontrelle Willis?

[ARod2212]

You're quite the homer, aren't you?

On what planet is Wang a better pitcher than Dontrelle Willis? I'd rather have Wang, without question. This isn't being a homer, this is me looking at a guy whose already proven he can pitch in the AL East vs. a guy who hasn't. Until Willis shows to me he can do it here, I prefer Wang.

[a700hitter]

I'd rather have Wang, without question. This isn't being a homer, this is me looking at a guy whose already proven he can pitch in the AL East vs. a guy who hasn't. Until Willis shows to me he can do it here, I prefer Wang.The yankees wish you were the Marlin's GM.

[redsoxrules]

I'd rather have Wang, without question. This isn't being a homer, this is me looking at a guy whose already proven he can pitch in the AL East vs. a guy who hasn't. Until Willis shows to me he can do it here, I prefer Wang.

proven ? he's had one full year in the AL . wait this year his ERA will jump at 4.5 at least

[TheKilo]

I'd rather have Wang, without question. This isn't being a homer, this is me looking at a guy whose already proven he can pitch in the AL East vs. a guy who hasn't. Until Willis shows to me he can do it here, I prefer Wang.


Wang's peripherals aren't as good as his numbers were this last year. If he reverts to the mean what happens then?

Willis has performed at a MUCH higher level thsn Wang has. Wang had a 121 ERA+ this year (when he was supposedly the second best pitcher in the AL)

Last year Willis had an ERA of 153+. In a supposed down year this year, he had one of 112+.

[ARod2212]

If you can name me one former Marlin pitcher who's had a good year in the AL East I'll drop it. Until he shows me he can do it, I'm taking Wang.

[rician blast]

Willis may be better and he is younger, but it'd be pretty hard to justify any move of Wang at this point. He may be a Yank but damn the kid has been good...27-11 thus far in his MLB career.

What I'd really hate to see is him AND Wang in the same rotation, assuming the Yankees found a way to make a deal without losing Chin.

[Coco's Disciples]

That would take Hughes.

[example1]

I'd rather have Wang, without question. This isn't being a homer, this is me looking at a guy whose already proven he can pitch in the AL East vs. a guy who hasn't. Until Willis shows to me he can do it here, I prefer Wang.

SO by definition doesn't that mean that you would never trade for anyone in the NL? If Willis has to pitch for the Yankees before he pitches for the Yankees you're never going to get there. <_<

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Dontrelle Willis is a better pitcher than Ching Wang.....that doesn't mean Wang couldn't beat him in a game necessarily. Overall Willis has better stuff and a great personality (something Wang does not pocesses).

[Optimist]

No deal is worth dealing Hughes.

[Coco's Disciples]

Dontrelle Willis is a better pitcher than Ching Wang

I concur.

Dontrelle Willis:

2003: 160 IP, 14-6, 3.31 ERA, 142 K, 1.28 WHIP
2004: 197 IP, 10-11, 4.02 ERA, 139 K, 1.37 WHIP
2005: 236 IP, 22-10, 2.63 ERA, 170 K, 1.13 WHIP
2006: 223 IP, 12-12, 3.87 ERA, 160 K, 1.41 WHIP

Chien Ming Wang:

2005: 116 IP, 8-5, 4.02 ERA, 47 K, 1.24 WHIP
2006: 218 IP, 19-6, 3.63 ERA, 76 K, 1.30 WHIP

How many of Willis' seasons were better than Wang's first? 2003 was. 2004 was about the same...lower ERA, more K, a little higher whip. 2005 was by far. 2006 was.

How many of Willis' seasons were better than Wang's second? 2003 was. 2004 was a little worse. 2005 was miles better. 2006 was a little bit worse.

Oh, but he pitched in the NL...if this is the fucking criteria for every pitcher who ever moves to the AL, let's bring the Mets into the AL and have everyone else go to AAA.

[Coco's Disciples]

No deal is worth dealing Hughes.

If I were the Yankees, I would deal Hughes straight up for:

Roy Halladay
Johan Santana
Scott Kazmir
Erik Bedard (Possibly)
Justin Verlander
Jeremy Bonderman
Francisco Liriano
Dontrelle Willis
Roy Oswalt
Brandon Webb

And thats just the starters. Why? Because Hughes has a lesser chance to become one of these players, than say, one of these players. This is something out of a700hitter's book...I would MUCH rather have major league talent that has proven they can win 14+ games with a good ERA, etc. than a prospect who COULD become better than that, but also could very well do absolutely nothing.

[example1]

Dontrelle Willis is a better pitcher than Ching Wang.....that doesn't mean Wang couldn't beat him in a game necessarily. Overall Willis has better stuff and a great personality (something Wang does not pocesses).


Very few people would rather have Wang than Willis. Willis has great stuff and Wang reminds me of D-Lowe. He's an extreme groundball pitcher who doesn't get a lot of K's. Willis has thrown 500 more professional innings and is 2 years younger than Wang.

I really don't see the two as mutually exclusive anyway, but I'd much rather have Dontrelle. Either would be great to have though.

[example1]

If I were the Yankees, I would deal Hughes straight up for:

Roy Halladay
Johan Santana
Scott Kazmir
Erik Bedard (Possibly)
Justin Verlander
Jeremy Bonderman
Francisco Liriano
Dontrelle Willis
Roy Oswalt
Brandon Webb



Out of those players I think only Bedard could be had without other pieces from the Yankees (barring that player being in the last year of a contract and the team dumping him to get some value). If I had any of the players listed above I would not trade them for Hughes unless Hughes came with another prospect.

And thats just the starters. Why? Because Hughes has a lesser chance to become one of these players, than say, one of these players. This is something out of a700hitter's book...I would MUCH rather have major league talent that has proven they can win 14+ games with a good ERA, etc. than a prospect who COULD become better than that, but also could very well do absolutely nothing.[/QUOTE]

[Coco's Disciples]

Yeah I wasnt saying a deal was possible, just guys I would trade Hughes for, without hesitation.

[example1]

Yeah I wasnt saying a deal was possible, just guys I would trade Hughes for, without hesitation.

Those are guys I would trade just about ANY minor league player for straight up.

[Beckett95]

Wang > Willis

Something tells me the D-train would struggle in the AL (especially the AL East)

[Beckett95]

Wang--19-6, 3.63 ERA, 218 IP, 12 HR, 2.85 GO/AO, 1.30 WHIP, 1.46 K/BB

Willis--12-12, 3.87 ERA, 223 IP, 21 HR, 1.61 GO/AO, 1.42 WHIP, 1.93 K/BB

Both are great and would be a pretty good 1-2 punch in the rotation, but id wouldnt even consider moving Wang for Willis

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Rob Neyer had a great article on Wang and his low k rate awhile back. Wang has had pretty much the same K rate for 2 years and hes been fine. I chalk it up to having such an outstanding pitch and outstanding control of it.

[ARod2212]

SO by definition doesn't that mean that you would never trade for anyone in the NL? If Willis has to pitch for the Yankees before he pitches for the Yankees you're never going to get there. <_< I understand that, but if I'm forced to choose between the guy who has shown me he can do it and the guy who hasn't, the choice is pretty easy.

I'm not saying Willis is a bad pitcher, but I would not trade away a consistent, reliable (young!) starter for something that could blow up in our face.

[Gom]

I am sure that Marlins' management is motivated by hatred of the Red Sox. ;) Too bad they didn't take that into account before they beat the Yankees in the 2003 World Series.
a700...the quote was sarcasm. I would give up Melky and Sanchez in a heartbeat. It would be funny if the team [via trade] that sabotaged a huge portion of the Red Sox's 2006 season sabotaged the coming one for the Sox again by taking below-market value for Willis from the Yankees.

You're quite the homer, aren't you?
On what planet is Wang a better pitcher than Dontrelle Willis?
Earth. Try living there sometime. It's kinda fun.

If you can name me one former Marlin pitcher who's had a good year in the AL East I'll drop it. Until he shows me he can do it, I'm taking Wang.
Agreed. Burnett, Beckett, and Pavano have underperformed in the AL East. I can think of three good reasons. Number one, they play in a huge pitchers park. Number two, they play in a very weak offensive division as compared to the AL East [although the gap has shrunk somewhat last year]. Number three, they have no DH. Kind of hurts when you play 1/4 of your games facing Giambi and Ortiz instead of El Duque at the plate.

Now to answer the lurid comparisons to Lowe. The difference is this, folks. No one in baseball throws the pitch Wang does. It's not that he has a sinker...it's that he throws it at 95 MPH. He has a unique pitch that no one else throws nearly as fast.

Think about this for a second. His sinker is as fast, if not faster than most player's fastballs. Players routinely beat it into the ground. So he may not strike out a lot of players, because he rarely if ever elevates his fastball/sinker, which most strikeout pitchers do. I'm sure if he wanted to strike people out, he could, at the expense of giving up more homeruns, which defeats the purpose. You pretty much need three hits off of Wang to score a run. That's what makes him so good. He keeps the ball in the park, doesn't walk a lot of hitters, and is not a big strikeout machine. Over 75% of the balls put in play against him are on the ground. I'm not saying he is Cy Young, but he's a damn good pitcher.

As long as his sinker keeps sinking at 95 MPH, you are looking at one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball. In the AL, only Santana and Halliday are better. I wouldn't put Dontrelle in the top 10 in baseball right now.

Anyways, it makes no sense to trade one for another, irrespective of the opinions of who is better. It is a worthless deal. They are close in age, and play the same position, and both make shit for money [relatively speaking]. So it's never going to happen.

[a700hitter]

a700...the quote was sarcasm. I would give up Melky and Sanchez in a heartbeat. It would be funny if the team [via trade] that sabotaged a huge portion of the Red Sox's 2006 season sabotaged the coming one for the Sox again by taking below-market value for Willis from the Yankees.So was mine, or was the winking smiley face too subtle?

[elsrbueno]

I'd rather have Wang, without question.

Sorry for the temporary immaturity-- but this guy said in 3 different ways that he prefers Wang. hehe.

Anyway back to the subject at hand. The difference between Wang and Dontrelle is that Dontrelle has proven he can hold his own in the NL East. Wang has proven that he can do the same thing in the AL East, which is an infinitely harder division to pitch in. The Mets are strong offensively, but can't even match the Yankees, and who'd you rather pitch against: The Orioles, Red Sox, Blue Jays, and Devil Rays or the Mets, Phillies, Nationals and Braves?

No brainer. Right now if I had Wang I wouldn't trade him for Willis straight up. Hughes for Willis straight up is a different alltogether.

[BSN07]

Let's say that Wang and Willis pretty much cancel each other out in the skill department. With both of them being good, I would take either for my team, if I had would pick, I would pick Willis over Wang . Because Willis is LH. LH pitchers with his stuff are alot more rare then RH pitchers with Wang's stuff.

Most dominate pitchers in the game today are RH. So knowing they come along more often then LH, I would grab the lefty while I could.

[example1]

Let's say that Wang and Willis pretty much cancel each other out in the skill department. With both of them being good, I would take either for my team, if I had would pick, I would pick Willis over Wang . Because Willis is LH. LH pitchers with his stuff are alot more rare then RH pitchers with Wang's stuff.

Most dominate pitchers in the game today are RH. So knowing they come along more often then LH, I would grab the lefty while I could.

Willis' potential for dominance is considerably higher than Wangs. And despite Wang's good season last year that's one good season, give him some time before we declare that he's the best pitcher in the AL.

Finally, I would take the 2 years YOUNGER Willis over the older Wang.

[riverside sluggers]

Wang--19-6, 3.63 ERA, 218 IP, 12 HR, 2.85 GO/AO, 1.30 WHIP, 1.46 K/BB

Willis--12-12, 3.87 ERA, 223 IP, 21 HR, 1.61 GO/AO, 1.42 WHIP, 1.93 K/BB

Both are great and would be a pretty good 1-2 punch in the rotation, but id wouldnt even consider moving Wang for Willis

And the year before, Willis ranked what like 3rd in Cy Young voting? His stats in 2006 were marred by a rought start in the first month or so

[Bosoxwest]

Yeah, Hughes and Cabrera and a B+-level, Duncan-type, I'm thinking. Shit, Florida had an outside chance at the playoffs last year. Why not see if they can drum up some attendance on that puppy before you trade DW?

[Gom]

So was mine, or was the winking smiley face too subtle?

Just making sure. The idea of subtlety in New York is bashing someone over the head with a brick.


Sorry for the temporary immaturity-- but this guy said in 3 different ways that he prefers Wang. hehe.


As immature as that was, I laughed for two minutes.

I think we can all agree that both Wang and Willis are top tier pitchers. I think we can both agree that it makes little sense to trade them for each other. That being said...

Do you think the Marlins would accept the package the Yankees got for Sheffield [Sanchez and the other guys, lol] and Melky for Willis?

You guys probably know more about the pitchers the Yankees got in the Sheffield deal than I do.

Do you think that is a fair deal?

[jacksonianmarch]

They said no to Hansen and Elsburry yet they're supposed to be considering this?

With all due respect, Cabrera is much better right now than Ellsbury simply because he has a successful rookie season under his belt. And Hansen is damaged goods with his poor performances early on. Not that I think this ludicrous offer will be accepted or anything.

Put me in the camp that thinks Dontrelle is overrated. His stock is sky high right now and the marlins dont need to deal him. He is bound to have another bad yr and will then command big bucks in arbitration. Right now, if the yankees did not want to give up Hughes, would take Sanchez, Duncan, and three more prospects, mostly all on the pitching end. The marlins are flush with young pitching yet they lack bats. Tabata might be the only match and the yankees would be foolish to deal him if they truly believe that his ceiling is as a Beltran type player. I think the yankees need to ride this season out and see where their prospects lie. They have a ton of pitching in that farm, yet Tabata and to a lesser extent Gardner and Duncan are the only two offensive guys worth more than a lipper of dip.

[jacksonianmarch]

On the wang vs willis debate, I'd take wang simply because he has proven he can handle NY, he was the wins leader last yr, and he doesnt give up HRs which kill you in the AL. He is perfect for the yankees and he should be deemed 100% untouchable.

[TheKilo]

I'd like to see Wang pull off a couple more decent season before we start calling him a "top tier pitcher"

He's good. But he's not there yet.

[jacksonianmarch]

he's good but not there yet? He led the majors in wins in his second season in the majors. That is about as top tier as you get right now. I am not sure if that is an indictment on the league or props to Wang, but it is what it is.

[TheKilo]

he's good but not there yet? He led the majors in wins in his second season in the majors. That is about as top tier as you get right now. I am not sure if that is an indictment on the league or props to Wang, but it is what it is.


Wins could be one of the worst statistics on judging whether or not a pitcher is any good. Entirely too team dependent.

[jacksonianmarch]

Wins could be one of the worst statistics on judging whether or not a pitcher is any good. Entirely too team dependent.

he had the era to justify it.

[ARod2212]

he had the era to justify it. Wang 7th in the American League, Willis was 14th in the NL.

[example1]

Wang 7th in the American League, Willis was 14th in the NL.

Fun with numbers.

2005 MLB ERA LEADERS

Clemens
Pettitte
Willis

3rd in the NL. 3rd in MLB. Willis is the more talented but less consistent pitcher. He's younger and a tremendous athelete. I guess at some point it comes down to personal preference, but Willis has had the better season between the two of them in their short careers and he is younger (i.e., he'll likely have another season like that before too long).

[jacksonianmarch]

2005 was a long time ago my friend.

[ARod2212]

If you can guarantee me that Willis will have that kind of a season in the American League East, I'll take him. I think based upon empirical evidence that Wang is perfectly suited for the Yankees.

[redsoxrules]

If you can guarantee me that Willis will have that kind of a season in the American League East, I'll take him. I think based upon empirical evidence that Wang is perfectly suited for the Yankees.

fine by me cause he sucks against boston (wang that is )

[jacksonianmarch]

2-2, yup, he sucks against the sox.

[redsoxrules]

2-2, yup, he sucks against the sox.

dont forget that 5.25 era , 1.76WHIP, and the high opponants bating average or 325 ;) shall i go on ????

[TheKilo]

2-2, yup, he sucks against the sox.



ATTN: WINS ARE NOT A GOOD MEASURE OF A PITCHER'S WORTH.

[Gom]

New rumor on the WFAN.

The Yankees have offered Melky, Humberto Sanchez, and Duncan for Willis. The rumor also said that the Yankees may include Proctor instead of Sanchez or Duncan.

If this is true...wow...may really twist the Marlins.

[jacksonianmarch]

New rumor on the WFAN.

The Yankees have offered Melky, Humberto Sanchez, and Duncan for Willis. The rumor also said that the Yankees may include Proctor instead of Sanchez or Duncan.

If this is true...wow...may really twist the Marlins.

I would absolutely include Proctor over Sanchez. Proctor is one yr removed from an insane workload and is an injury just waiting to happen. Plus, Proctor is no spring chicken at 30yrs old. Sanchez is a guy I would not trade right now. Absolutely NOT. The guy was one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball last yr until he hurt his arm. His injury is considered to be healed at this point. There was a ton of speculation about the tigers bringing him up last yr as a sept callup with the possibility of carrying him in the postseason. If the pitching loaded Tigers loved the kid this much to consider putting him in the pen for the playoffs after pitching zero MLB innings, then i think he has something to show. Right now, dealing him would be selling low. To tell you how high I am on this guy and how high a lot of scouts are on this guy, there is some discussion as to which player will make the majors first, Hughes or Sanchez. That is how good this kid is. If the marlins would accept a deal of Proctor, Melky, and Duncan, then the yankees should accept before the marlins see how far their shit is getting pushed in.

[Coco's Disciples]

I will change my sig and avatar to something of Gom's choice if the Yankees get Willis.

And it will be permanent.

[jacksonianmarch]

I will change my sig and avatar to something of Gom's choice if the Yankees get Willis.

And it will be permanent.

that would be funny as hell

[Gom]

I wonder if the Marlins would do all four. Proctor, Sanchez, Melky, and Duncan.

I love the deal from the Yanks standpoint...but it was on a NY sports radio station.

[schillingouttheks]

Try including Hughes with Sanchez and maybe the Marlins will consider it.

[Gom]

The Yankees won't include both Sanchez and Hughes. Shillingouttheks...if you were the Marlins...would you trade Willis for Melky, Proctor, Sanchez, and Duncan? I'm biased, I would make the trade for the Yankees. I think if Sanchez and Duncan live up to the hype, this is a great deal for the Marlins.

What would you do if you were the Marlins GM?

[Coco's Disciples]

I wouldn't do it if I were the Marlins. I'd feel like if I wanted to deal Dontrelle I could get Milledge.

[ARod2212]

Try including Hughes with Sanchez and maybe the Marlins will consider it.
Florida would deal Willis for just those two players in a heartbeat. That would be an extraordinarily stupid move by the Yankees. As a general rule I don't trade young, quality (potential superstar) pitching unless absolutely necessary.

I dislike moving Proctor because of how important he is to the bullpen, and I love Melky because he is the perfect 4th outfielder to fill in due to an injury. It's a gamble, but if it lands Willis I'm not totally against it.

[Gom]

I wouldn't do it if I were the Marlins. I'd feel like if I wanted to deal Dontrelle I could get Milledge.

So if you were the Marlins, you would rather take Milledge instead of the package I proposed? Don't forget, Willis will stay in your division.

Interesting.

[Coco's Disciples]

I would not do Milledge for Willis straight up, but Milledge would have to be included.

You do bring up a good point about the division...if all things were equal, the Marlins would rather deal Willis to the Yanks than Mets.

[ORS]

So if you were the Marlins, you would rather take Milledge instead of the package I proposed? Don't forget, Willis will stay in your division.

Interesting.
I don't think FLA gives the division a thought when making trades. They certainly didn't last year when they traded both Lo Duca and Delgado to the Mets. Their decision will most likely be determined by the talent offered and that alone.

[Gom]

I don't think FLA gives the division a thought when making trades. They certainly didn't last year when they traded both Lo Duca and Delgado to the Mets. Their decision will most likely be determined by the talent offered and that alone.

Good point. So if you were the Marlins GM, would you pull the trigger on the trade rumor I heard on WFAN? Why or why not?

[kreinbihl34]

I would take Willis is a heartbeat. It justs seems to me he's someone who would win at all costs. I mean it is hard playing for a team who has very little fan support.

[ORS]

I would do it if it were the only package available, but I'd shop real hard first.

Those are 3 decent young players, with Duncan being the nothing special add-on. None of them scream star though. If I'm the Marlins, I hold out for less players, but more ceiling.

[jacksonianmarch]

not sure who will want to trump that offer though. The Mutts and DBacks are interested, but if Mulder goes to ARI, then that leaves the mets as the only team rumored to make a strong push. Consider also that the mets are likely to sign Zito and you get rid of their interest as well. The Marlins do not need to deal Willis, but they do want to keep payroll down and Willis is certainly due a huge payday. The Marlins also have some of the best talent developers in the game if you see how many top notch players have gone through that organization. If you can get a power corner IF, a top 5 pitching prospect, a switch hitting CFer coming off a solid rookie yr, and a reliever who had a nasty 100IP+ season and I am not sure if any team could beat that unless they deal from their MLB talent.

[ORS]

If you can get a power corner IF, a top 5 pitching prospect, a switch hitting CFer coming off a solid rookie yr, and a reliever who had a nasty 100IP+ season and I am not sure if any team could beat that unless they deal from their MLB talent.
Absolutely right. Now how does this apply to Duncan, Sanchez, Melky, and Proctor?

Duncan looks like a guy that has serious trouble adapting to higher levels. Melky is not a CF. Sanchez has some promise to him. Proctor is the best fit for the Marlins of the package, but when does it make sense to trade a very good SP for a good setup-man?

[Coco's Disciples]

Yeah...I don't see a Top 5 pitching prospect anywhere there...that'd have to be Hughes...Sanchez is Top 40.

[ARod2212]

I don't think FLA gives the division a thought when making trades. They certainly didn't last year when they traded both Lo Duca and Delgado to the Mets. Their decision will most likely be determined by the talent offered and that alone. When its Delgado and LoDuca, they're short term players. Florida isn't looking to compete this year, so sending a couple of old guys to a divison rival isn't too bad. But when you're talking about trading a young star pitcher, you want to keep those far away from you. They're looking at facing Delgado for three years, but could look at facing Willis for a decade. That'll play into their decision.

[ORS]

When its Delgado and LoDuca, they're short term players. Florida isn't looking to compete this year, so sending a couple of old guys to a divison rival isn't too bad. But when you're talking about trading a young star pitcher, you want to keep those far away from you. They're looking at facing Delgado for three years, but could look at facing Willis for a decade. That'll play into their decision.
Makes sense. For some reason though, I doubt it matters. Given their actions, I don't see W/L implications being a cornerstone of their management. They just fired the NL Manager of the year who had them in the hunt late in the season over some petty BS. If the Mets package looks better by one projected win share, then that is who will get Dontrelle, IMO.

[TheKilo]

Florida would deal Willis for just those two players in a heartbeat. That would be an extraordinarily stupid move by the Yankees. As a general rule I don't trade young, quality (potential superstar) pitching unless absolutely necessary.

I dislike moving Proctor because of how important he is to the bullpen, and I love Melky because he is the perfect 4th outfielder to fill in due to an injury. It's a gamble, but if it lands Willis I'm not totally against it.



But you're banking on the fact that Hughes becomes something similar to what Willis already is.

[ARod2212]

Makes sense. For some reason though, I doubt it matters. Given their actions, I don't see W/L implications being a cornerstone of their management. They just fired the NL Manager of the year who had them in the hunt late in the season over some petty BS. If the Mets package looks better by one projected win share, then that is who will get Dontrelle, IMO.
I won't put it past them, they have a wacky franchise. If the packages are comparable I'm sure they'd prefer to move him out of the NL East.

But you're banking on the fact that Hughes becomes something similar to what Willis already is.
I understand that, but if they want to move Willis those are the kinds of risks they are going to take. They aren't going to move Willis for a proven veteran, they're going to move him for young, cheap players.

[example1]

Is there any actual substance to this discussion? To be competitive, Florida needs young effective players who don't cost a lot of money. Willis is those things, so why would they move him? If they were to move him why would the Yankees be the best team?

[Gom]

Is there any actual substance to this discussion? To be competitive, Florida needs young effective players who don't cost a lot of money. Willis is those things, so why would they move him? If they were to move him why would the Yankees be the best team?

Well, the thing is that Willis is due for a big raise after next season, so they are looking to get rid of him due to payroll constraints.

It's not moving him to which team per se, it's just who is willing to offer the best package.

[example1]

Well, the thing is that Willis is due for a big raise after next season, so they are looking to get rid of him due to payroll constraints.

It's not moving him to which team per se, it's just who is willing to offer the best package.

They will keep him for at least one more season if he has 2 seasons left, especially since those teams would likely be willing to part with the same amount next year at this time for his services, yet all of those players would have played an extra season and incurred added risk with ANOTHER team, not their own.

[Gom]

They will keep him for at least one more season if he has 2 seasons left, especially since those teams would likely be willing to part with the same amount next year at this time for his services, yet all of those players would have played an extra season and incurred added risk with ANOTHER team, not their own.

The logic seems to be faulty. What if Dontrelle gets injured? Also, lets say Sanchez becomes a good pitcher...less likely to get traded. There are risks either way.

It's a double-edged sword.

[ARod2212]

They will keep him for at least one more season if he has 2 seasons left, especially since those teams would likely be willing to part with the same amount next year at this time for his services, yet all of those players would have played an extra season and incurred added risk with ANOTHER team, not their own.
Or they think his value has peaked and this is the time to get the best package for him.

[example1]

The logic seems to be faulty. What if Dontrelle gets injured? Also, lets say Sanchez becomes a good pitcher...less likely to get traded. There are risks either way.

It's a double-edged sword.

My logic would seem to be faulty if there were any substantial discussion going on about moving Dontrelle Willis. I haven't heard any yet so, thus far at least, it appears that the Marlins aren't going to move him immediately. They aren't overly concerned about the possibility of him getting injured at this point.

[TheKilo]

I'm also fairly sure that if the Marlins wanted to move Willis, they could probably get a better package than Melky, Proctor, Sanchez and Duncan. Melky is about an average outfielder, with little power but skills in other areas. Proctor they may go for, only because they need some bullpen help. I'll be honest when I say that I don't know much about Sanchez, and what I've heard from Duncan is he's been sliding down the Yankees prospect list the last few years.

Like ORS said a couple of posts ago, it might benefit them to go for quality of young talent over quantity. If the Yankees made an offer of Hughes/Proctor for Willis, then I think the Fish do that deal.

[Gom]

I'm also fairly sure that if the Marlins wanted to move Willis, they could probably get a better package than Melky, Proctor, Sanchez and Duncan. Melky is about an average outfielder, with little power but skills in other areas. Proctor they may go for, only because they need some bullpen help. I'll be honest when I say that I don't know much about Sanchez, and what I've heard from Duncan is he's been sliding down the Yankees prospect list the last few years.

Like ORS said a couple of posts ago, it might benefit them to go for quality of young talent over quantity. If the Yankees made an offer of Hughes/Proctor for Willis, then I think the Fish do that deal.

That would be tough to turn down from a Yankees perspective...I hate to give up Hughes...but a front three of Wang, Willis, and Mussina is as good as they come.

[jacksonianmarch]

Gom, are you crazy? I am not too high on willis, so I would not even consider moving Hughes. Not for him. The yankees may be better off seeing what they have before they try to get someone. Their upper level pitching is very promising and could net something in season.

[TheKilo]

Gom, are you crazy? I am not too high on willis, so I would not even consider moving Hughes. Not for him. The yankees may be better off seeing what they have before they try to get someone. Their upper level pitching is very promising and could net something in season.


But all you're doing is hoping Hughes becomes what Willis already is...who is to say that Hughes won't be a diappointment when he hits the bigs? Odds are he won't be, but if he turns into Dontrelle Willis you'd be ecstatic.

One of the biggest reasons for developing prospects is so you can move them for young, proven, MLB ready talent. Right now, that's what Willis is. Maybe one day Hughes will be.

[jacksonianmarch]

At the same time though, how many of these top prospect for young talent deals blow up in people's faces? Willis and his herky jerky motion will lend to injuries.

[TheKilo]

At the same time though, how many of these top prospect for young talent deals blow up in people's faces? Willis and his herky jerky motion will lend to injuries.

He's started 32, 34, and 34 games the last three years.

He's been in the league for four years now and hasn't really missed significant time due to injury. That could change, sure, but all I'm saying is his delivery has not led to an injury yet.

[Gom]

But all you're doing is hoping Hughes becomes what Willis already is...who is to say that Hughes won't be a diappointment when he hits the bigs? Odds are he won't be, but if he turns into Dontrelle Willis you'd be ecstatic.

One of the biggest reasons for developing prospects is so you can move them for young, proven, MLB ready talent. Right now, that's what Willis is. Maybe one day Hughes will be.

True. However, I am sure the Marlins will take less than Hughes in a package. If Hughes becomes Willis, then it's obviously a bad deal for the Yanks. I still think a Sanchez/Proctor/Cabrera/Duncan deal can get done though. Maybe even without Proctor. Who knows?

I'd love to see him in pinstripes, but I think the Marlins are nuts to trade him.

[ARod2212]

But all you're doing is hoping Hughes becomes what Willis already is...who is to say that Hughes won't be a diappointment when he hits the bigs? Odds are he won't be, but if he turns into Dontrelle Willis you'd be ecstatic.

One of the biggest reasons for developing prospects is so you can move them for young, proven, MLB ready talent. Right now, that's what Willis is. Maybe one day Hughes will be. I think he can be better than Willis, which plays into the "I don't want to trade him" mindset. Hughes has been compared favorably to Roger Clemens, and I don't want to trade a 20 year old Roger Clemens.

[TheKilo]

I think he can be better than Willis, which plays into the "I don't want to trade him" mindset. Hughes has been compared favorably to Roger Clemens, and I don't want to trade a 20 year old Roger Clemens.

I honestly don't think the Yankees get Willis without parting with Hughes.

[jacksonianmarch]

I honestly don't think the Yankees get Willis without parting with Hughes.

depends on their direction. Willis is due to make a lot of money this yr. Consider that last yr he set a record in first yr eligibility and he did not disappoint this yr. He could be in double figures before you know it and the marlins may not be happy with that.

[TheKilo]

he's good but not there yet? He led the majors in wins in his second season in the majors. That is about as top tier as you get right now. I am not sure if that is an indictment on the league or props to Wang, but it is what it is.

lol

[jacksonianmarch]

He won 19 games this yr kilo. He sucked this postseason, but you cannot deny that he was one of the best pitchers in the AL this yr.

[TheKilo]

He won 19 games this yr kilo. He sucked this postseason, but you cannot deny that he was one of the best pitchers in the AL this yr.

You just said he was a #3 at best. How is he top tier then?

BESIDES WINS ARE ONE OF THE WORST STATS TO JUDGE THE WORTH OF A PITCHER

[schillingouttheks]

Beckett could have won 25 games if he had the Yankees' lineup.

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys arent following.

This season he was one of the best in the league. He was the same last yr. I know that wins are a team dependent stat, but at the same time, they do count for something. That being said, 2 consecutive yrs of 19 wins and a 3.7 ish era is damn good. So yes, he has been one of the best pitchers in the AL over the past 2 yrs.

But he isnt a prototypical ace and essentially fits as a middle of the rotation (hence #3) kind of pitcher because he is better over the course of the season than you can stick him for in one game. That isnt true for the so called aces like Santana or Beckett this yr. Both of those guys have the shut down stuff to rise to the occasion in a winer take all kind of scenario and that is the kind of guy we need to acquire.

[TheKilo]

You guys arent following.

This season he was one of the best in the league. He was the same last yr. I know that wins are a team dependent stat, but at the same time, they do count for something. That being said, 2 consecutive yrs of 19 wins and a 3.7 ish era is damn good. So yes, he has been one of the best pitchers in the AL over the past 2 yrs.

But he isnt a prototypical ace and essentially fits as a middle of the rotation (hence #3) kind of pitcher because he is better over the course of the season than you can stick him for in one game. That isnt true for the so called aces like Santana or Beckett this yr. Both of those guys have the shut down stuff to rise to the occasion in a winer take all kind of scenario and that is the kind of guy we need to acquire.

So you're having your cake and eating it too. Gotcha.

[jacksonianmarch]

So you're having your cake and eating it too. Gotcha.

Wang is unique. I am sure most anyone will agree with that statement. He doesnt fit into most conventional categories, but the one category that he certainly doesnt fill is team ace. Doesnt mean he isnt one of the best pitchers in the league, he just doesnt have the kind of shut down stuff you need out of your top spot in the rotation.

[redsoxrules]

wang is not one of the best pitchers in the league , I wouldn't even put him in the top 10 in MLB , 25 other starting pitchers in MLB had better ERA than wang this year ( 13 in the AL)

[TheKilo]

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204030

VORP for pitchers....Wang is 20th behind the likes of Aaron Harang, Javier Vazquez, and Tim Hudson.