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Beckett95
12-25-2006, 11:37 AM
mlbtraderumors

While it was denied a few weeks ago, it sounds like discussions are indeed taking place that would bring Randy Johnson back to the Arizona Diamondbacks. Johnson's agent and D'Backs general partner Ken Kendrick are mum on the subject.

Ed Price reports that the Yankees don't want to pay any of the $16MM owed to the Big Unit in 2007. Arizona's rotation currently consists of Brandon Webb, Livan Hernandez, Doug Davis, and a competition between Juan Cruz, Dana Eveland, Edgar Gonzalez, and Enrique Gonzalez. The Diamondbacks are packed with promising youngsters like Conor Jackson and Dustin Nippert.

Johnson had back surgery after the season ended; he turned 43 this year. ZiPS, which projected pitchers better than anyone last year, predicts a 3.71 ERA for Johnson in 34 starts in 2007 - even as a Yankee.

not really a great source, but still interesting to read

Beckett95
12-25-2006, 12:06 PM
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1167025066122190.xml&coll=1

little bit more reliable source

a700hitter
12-25-2006, 01:07 PM
If the Big Unit goes back to AZ, the Yanks will start the season with Wang, Moose, Pettitte...and Pavano and Karstens? Yikes!

riverside sluggers
12-25-2006, 01:07 PM
Yankees not wanting to pay any bit of the $16 million owed to the 43 year old "Ah my back" Randy Johnson... how could the D-Backs not want to assume all of his salary? :rolleyes:

CrespoBlows
12-25-2006, 01:22 PM
I'd take a chance on him for about $6-8 million.

a700hitter
12-25-2006, 01:32 PM
Yankees not wanting to pay any bit of the $16 million owed to the 43 year old "Ah my back" Randy Johnson... how could the D-Backs not want to assume all of his salary? :rolleyes:If they pick up his full salary, the Yankees will get little or nothing in return.

riverside sluggers
12-25-2006, 04:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2708203

Ludicrous!! Can Theo get the mental powers that Cashman has??

Ahem... the Diamondbacks are about to give the Yankees an offer of 3 players (including 1 major leaguer), and will actually ask for a 72 hour negotiating window with 43 year old RJ about a fucking contract extension??!!

elsrbueno
12-25-2006, 09:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2708203

Ludicrous!! Can Theo get the mental powers that Cashman has??

Ahem... the Diamondbacks are about to give the Yankees an offer of 3 players (including 1 major leaguer), and will actually ask for a 72 hour negotiating window with 43 year old RJ about a fucking contract extension??!!

Randy Johnson has very little value right now if you ask me. Granted, he was in the AL East last year (the hardest division to pitch in IMO) but this guy's 43, has a $16 million price tag, and had a 5.00 ERA last season. Not to mention his strikeout rate is dropping, his walk rate is rising, and he just didn't intimidate last year like he used to.

Not to mention he just had surgery so he's a big health question mark. There's a chance the back was a big factor in him sucking last year but there's a bigger chance it's the fact that he's 43. He'd be a better pitcher in Arizona or San Diego but he isn't worth all that much, especially if the Yankees don't want to pay any part of his salary.

a700hitter
12-25-2006, 09:50 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2708203

Ludicrous!! Can Theo get the mental powers that Cashman has??

Ahem... the Diamondbacks are about to give the Yankees an offer of 3 players (including 1 major leaguer), and will actually ask for a 72 hour negotiating window with 43 year old RJ about a fucking contract extension??!!Who are the three players... Larry, Mo and Curly or maybe Shemp?

CrespoBlows
12-25-2006, 10:07 PM
Randy Johnson has very little value right now if you ask me. Granted, he was in the AL East last year (the hardest division to pitch in IMO) but this guy's 43, has a $16 million price tag, and had a 5.00 ERA last season. Not to mention his strikeout rate is dropping, his walk rate is rising, and he just didn't intimidate last year like he used to.

His WHIP was a 1.26, which in the AL is very respectable. That might dip to a 1.15 - 1.20 margin in the NL. He still averages 7.55 strikeouts per nine innings, that could rise to eight in the NL, throwing to the pitchers.

Factor in the fact, that Johnson was pretty unlucky last year. His BABIP with RISP was over .360. With a little luck, Johnson's ERA last year could have been a half of a run lower.

He's certainly not a $16 million dollar pitcher, but $7 to $9, in this market? No question.

Gom
12-26-2006, 01:14 AM
Randy Johnson will finish with an ERA in the mid 3's next year in the national league. He will be a servicable pitcher for Arizona/San Diego.

That does not change the fact that he is literally useless to the Yankees. If the Yankees can give away RJ without paying a penny, it's a good deal for the Yanks. Couple that with signing Zito, and the Yankees would have had a FANTASTIC offseason.

elsrbueno
12-26-2006, 07:57 AM
His WHIP was a 1.26, which in the AL is very respectable. That might dip to a 1.15 - 1.20 margin in the NL. He still averages 7.55 strikeouts per nine innings, that could rise to eight in the NL, throwing to the pitchers.

Factor in the fact, that Johnson was pretty unlucky last year. His BABIP with RISP was over .360. With a little luck, Johnson's ERA last year could have been a half of a run lower.

He's certainly not a $16 million dollar pitcher, but $7 to $9, in this market? No question.

he's worth $7 million in this market. But if the Yankees expect talent back they need to cover that extra $9 million, because he's a huge risk at $16 million IMO.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
12-26-2006, 08:33 AM
he's worth $7 million in this market. But if the Yankees expect talent back they need to cover that extra $9 million, because he's a huge risk at $16 million IMO.

Looks like the Yanks might get away without paying anything:



San Diego right now appears to be the most likely destination for the five-time Cy Young Award winner, but the Dodgers, Angels and Diamondbacks are all said to be in the mix. One of the officials, familiar with the ongoing discussions, used the phrase "several bona fide offers" to describe what the Yankees are mulling and said the Yankees probably would not have to include any money.



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/483266p-406772c.html

Mr Crunchy
12-26-2006, 09:18 AM
i would think if the yanks are sincere about winning this season they would keep rj in stripes at least thru the break in july to see if he can help
hes still a better option than zito i feel and despite his obvious decline since he came to the a.l he still finds a way to stick it up the sox ass be it a 5-4 or 8-6 game

his problems have been in the post season where he hasnt pitched well
and the lingering questions about his back will be investigated before he gets dealt back to the low pressure malaise of west coast baseball

i for 1 hope hes gone from ny and i suspect there are men like david ortiz who would help fund rj's salary if he was moved out west

26 Reasons to Hate Us
12-26-2006, 09:53 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about this yet. I guess it depends on what they get back. I sure wouldn't miss seeing RJ get lit up every other outing, but like Crunchy says he finds a way to beat the Sox, and he does still eat up innings..

Mr Crunchy
12-26-2006, 10:44 AM
hes the kind of guy who if you give him a lead hes nearly unbeatable
give him 4 he'll give 3 back
give him 7 he'll give up 5
the man,despite his prick like attitude and a face that only a mother could love,has been a winner his entire career.
being 6'10 and ancient will destroy your back
i dont know if hes 100% or ever will be again

that said
the alternatives in a trade just dont seem to be suitable for a team thats interested in making a run for the gold,if they were getting some serious relief help or maybe a legit 1st basemen i can see it happening
cashman isnt an idiot but i dont think he calls a lot of his own shots either

this shall get interesting,if rj is in nyc and doesnt want to be??
he can make manny look like a team 1st kind of guy

Gom
12-26-2006, 05:51 PM
I would rather have Zito than RJ. No doubt about it. If they can sign Zito if they trade RJ, then it is a great move(s) for the Empire.

ARod2212
12-26-2006, 06:34 PM
I'm in favor of trading Johnson if we get Clemens, but I want no part of Zito for 6 years. Too long of an investment for me.

example1
12-26-2006, 08:05 PM
I would rather have Zito than RJ. No doubt about it. If they can sign Zito if they trade RJ, then it is a great move(s) for the Empire.

Really? A great move? You pay a guy 18m a year to suck balls, throwing another worn out potential hall of famer onto the scrap heap filled with other Yankee failures, then you're able to get rid of him and use your exorbitant payroll to get the guy who will likely be the highest paid FA on the market this season?

Sounds like a really good plan. You should get Clemens and Bonds, see if McGwire can come out of retirement, put Sosa in RF and have Pavano pitch every day, if you can too. :rolleyes:

You get on Sox fans for saying stupid things so its only appropriate to go back when you do it. This is not a "great move" for the Empire:

Let's look at the players the Yankees gave up to get RJ:

They sent Javier Vasquez, Dioneer Navaro and Brad "Admiral" Halsey to AZ after having sent Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera to MTL for Javier Vasquez in the first place.

This team is, at best, impatient and impulsive. They are like an American automaker. When you call a deal to get RID of RJ for as of yet UNKNOWN players, a "Great move" it reflects on the state of affairs in yankee nation more than on the deal itself. The Yankees never needed Johnson, yet they spent a lot to get him and now they're willing to get rid of him despite what they had to give up to get him.

The Yankees spent enough in luxary taxes last year to pay any player, on any team, to play for any other team. In other words, the Royals, simply with the amount the Yankees had to pay in cap-hit money, could have had Alex Rodriguez +.

Listen, getting rid of RJ is a necessary move, its not "great". He sucks. But just because the Yankees get lucky enough to get another team to actually take him and get something in return, there is no way they come out net-winners on the RJ saga. Not only did he cost them a lot of money and talent, but he produced ZERO on the field that has brought anything tangible to Yankee fans. He has not once raised a WS trophy for the yankees or even helped them win a playoff series. He's a waste, you're dropping dead weight. Congrats.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
12-26-2006, 10:20 PM
Now that Cashman is in charge, you won't see anymore 'impatient and impulsive' decisions. Cash is cutting his losses for mistakes made by King George. I like to think that Yankees are looking at it this way: Pettitte at 16 mil for one year its an upgrade over RJ for one year at 16 mil. Zito is a separate issue, and could be a good addition for the right money/years.

CrespoBlows
12-26-2006, 10:49 PM
Really? A great move? You pay a guy 18m a year to suck balls, throwing another worn out potential hall of famer onto the scrap heap filled with other Yankee failures, then you're able to get rid of him and use your exorbitant payroll to get the guy who will likely be the highest paid FA on the market this season?

Sounds like a really good plan. You should get Clemens and Bonds, see if McGwire can come out of retirement, put Sosa in RF and have Pavano pitch every day, if you can too. :rolleyes:

You get on Sox fans for saying stupid things so its only appropriate to go back when you do it. This is not a "great move" for the Empire:

Let's look at the players the Yankees gave up to get RJ:

They sent Javier Vasquez, Dioneer Navaro and Brad "Admiral" Halsey to AZ after having sent Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera to MTL for Javier Vasquez in the first place.

This team is, at best, impatient and impulsive. They are like an American automaker. When you call a deal to get RID of RJ for as of yet UNKNOWN players, a "Great move" it reflects on the state of affairs in yankee nation more than on the deal itself. The Yankees never needed Johnson, yet they spent a lot to get him and now they're willing to get rid of him despite what they had to give up to get him.

The Yankees spent enough in luxary taxes last year to pay any player, on any team, to play for any other team. In other words, the Royals, simply with the amount the Yankees had to pay in cap-hit money, could have had Alex Rodriguez +.

Listen, getting rid of RJ is a necessary move, its not "great". He sucks. But just because the Yankees get lucky enough to get another team to actually take him and get something in return, there is no way they come out net-winners on the RJ saga. Not only did he cost them a lot of money and talent, but he produced ZERO on the field that has brought anything tangible to Yankee fans. He has not once raised a WS trophy for the yankees or even helped them win a playoff series. He's a waste, you're dropping dead weight. Congrats.

:wtf:

Are you done? You missed his point entirely.

Cityofchampions33
12-26-2006, 11:40 PM
If the Yankees get any decent players back and still don't have to pay any of the 16 mill, this is anything but negative for teh Apple's finest. The Yanks, if you look at who they're dealing with, could end up with Adrian Gonzalez from the Padres, which IMO is better than anyone available on the market. Also if he fails you have the Cuban kid in the wings for next year, so you gain cash, a possible piece(s) of the future, and a late run at Zito.

He Hate Me
12-27-2006, 01:22 AM
Really? A great move? You pay a guy 18m a year to suck balls, throwing another worn out potential hall of famer onto the scrap heap filled with other Yankee failures, then you're able to get rid of him and use your exorbitant payroll to get the guy who will likely be the highest paid FA on the market this season?

Sounds like a really good plan. You should get Clemens and Bonds, see if McGwire can come out of retirement, put Sosa in RF and have Pavano pitch every day, if you can too. :rolleyes:

You get on Sox fans for saying stupid things so its only appropriate to go back when you do it. This is not a "great move" for the Empire:

Let's look at the players the Yankees gave up to get RJ:

They sent Javier Vasquez, Dioneer Navaro and Brad "Admiral" Halsey to AZ after having sent Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera to MTL for Javier Vasquez in the first place.

This team is, at best, impatient and impulsive. They are like an American automaker. When you call a deal to get RID of RJ for as of yet UNKNOWN players, a "Great move" it reflects on the state of affairs in yankee nation more than on the deal itself. The Yankees never needed Johnson, yet they spent a lot to get him and now they're willing to get rid of him despite what they had to give up to get him.

The Yankees spent enough in luxary taxes last year to pay any player, on any team, to play for any other team. In other words, the Royals, simply with the amount the Yankees had to pay in cap-hit money, could have had Alex Rodriguez +.

Listen, getting rid of RJ is a necessary move, its not "great". He sucks. But just because the Yankees get lucky enough to get another team to actually take him and get something in return, there is no way they come out net-winners on the RJ saga. Not only did he cost them a lot of money and talent, but he produced ZERO on the field that has brought anything tangible to Yankee fans. He has not once raised a WS trophy for the yankees or even helped them win a playoff series. He's a waste, you're dropping dead weight. Congrats.

i'm confused...isn't dropping dead weight + not having to pay for salary + getting back prospects or someone to fill a need a great move? I think that's what he was pointing at.

And please, I think it's about time we moved away from the payroll complaints.

example1
12-27-2006, 01:48 AM
:wtf:

Are you done? You missed his point entirely.

Am I done? What kind of question is that? You saw the f-ing period, you saw that I submitted the post, then you just tell me I missed his point entirely.

Here's what his point was: if the Yankees can get Zito and get rid of RJ it would be a "great move". I went to considerable lengths to show that, although that particular part of the deal would be a "nice" move for the Yankees (getting rid or an inconvenience for a decent player), the entire RJ acquisition (which, in many ways, epitomizes the crappy management style they've had the past few years) can not be seen as a success and the word "great" deserves a better placement than to be referring to ANY deal the yankees have made with RJ.

example1
12-27-2006, 01:56 AM
And please, I think it's about time we moved away from the payroll complaints.

Yeah, wasn't that convenient for a few days when everyone assumed we'd pay Matsuzaka 12-14m a year and thus pay him more than 20m a year. Wasn't that cool when yankee fans could say that the Red Sox were basically the same as the Yankees in payroll.

I didn't buy it then--although I thought it strengthened their argument--and I don't buy it now.

Matsuzaka is paid like a top line pitcher who was a FA. nothing more. Manny makes less than multiple Yankees do, and other than that the Sox are closer, MUCH, MUCH closer to the other teams than they are to the Yankees.

So, yeah, for a few days it made sense to say the Sox were just free spending and I bet it felt pretty good. I don't believe it. They filled some holes at the necessary price (SS, RF(?)), but so did a whole lot of other teams.

example1
12-27-2006, 02:03 AM
i'm confused...isn't dropping dead weight + not having to pay for salary + getting back prospects or someone to fill a need a great move? I think that's what he was pointing at.

Oh yeah, missed this part.

Would the Red Sox being able to move Matt clement be a "Great move"? To me it seems like it would be a necessary move, an important move but not a "great move". Despite Gom's tendency to rain on every Sox fan's parade whenever anything good happens for them, he's okay to turn around and start praising the Yankees FO for a "great move" of getting rid of players they never should have spent the farm on in the first place? Does ending a nightmare that never should have started in the first place end up being a "great" move. Is that the type of thing that Yankee or Red Sox fans should walk away, patting themselves on the back about how great their FO is? If so that's pretty weak and that's what I was responding to.

Gom
12-27-2006, 02:56 AM
Oh yeah, missed this part.

Would the Red Sox being able to move Matt clement be a "Great move"? To me it seems like it would be a necessary move, an important move but not a "great move". Despite Gom's tendency to rain on every Sox fan's parade whenever anything good happens for them, he's okay to turn around and start praising the Yankees FO for a "great move" of getting rid of players they never should have spent the farm on in the first place? Does ending a nightmare that never should have started in the first place end up being a "great" move. Is that the type of thing that Yankee or Red Sox fans should walk away, patting themselves on the back about how great their FO is? If so that's pretty weak and that's what I was responding to.

Wow...I can't believe my comments went that far. First of all, signing RJ was lauded as a FANTASTIC move. Look at the numbers that RJ had the year before he came to the Yankees. I for one, thought he would be the missing piece. So did pretty much everyone. Now, hindsight is 20/20, but it sure looked like a great move. I would love to hear someone's logic to the contrary.

Secondly, before any of this happens, if it does, I have come here numerous times saying I would love to have Zito, before the Matsuzaka sweepstakes. Also, I have given credit to the Sox numerous times for getting him. However, giving Drew 70 million was a mistake, and the fact that the guy failed his physical may save the Sox from a tremendous mistake.

The fact that you call RJ a nightmare now is understandable. I don't believe you thought so beforehand.

If you start saying so, then I will admit that I thought Beckett would be one of the worst trades the Red Sox have made in 20 years when they made it. As well as I thought that Renteria was going to completely bomb in Boston after being an All-Star caliber shortstop in the NL for years. Also Clement was going to suck royally, and Arroyo would be a first half Cy Young candidate, and Crisp would be an utter waste.

Are you starting to get the picture?

RJ was a great deal when it happened. It didn't pan out that way. The fact that the Yankees can get a prospect or two, or maybe even Linebrink, and not eat any salary, and use that money to get Zito is a fantastic move for the Yankees, if they can pull it off. Period.

Mr Crunchy
12-27-2006, 09:04 AM
comparing matt clement who hasnt won a game since 05 to randy johnson,the man who beat our fucking asses every time he went out there isnt proper
and is out and out ridiculous
ya
i hope they move johnson to the national league
we couldnt beat him despite his 5era

andy petitte at 16M is a friggin joke
he isnt an upgrade over randy johnson
ny fans think because he was effective in 2003 and is a home grown player that he will be the savior
i think the yanks fans are grasping at straws here in the hopes that he will be the difference
in the national league central his era was 4.20 and his whip was 1.4
those #s translate into a fuking beating in the al east

and if they give barry zito 120M??
please
hes another guy who will get his ass handed to him in the heat of the al east

CrespoBlows
12-27-2006, 10:48 AM
Am I done? What kind of question is that? You saw the f-ing period, you saw that I submitted the post, then you just tell me I missed his point entirely.

Here's what his point was: if the Yankees can get Zito and get rid of RJ it would be a "great move". I went to considerable lengths to show that, although that particular part of the deal would be a "nice" move for the Yankees (getting rid or an inconvenience for a decent player), the entire RJ acquisition (which, in many ways, epitomizes the crappy management style they've had the past few years) can not be seen as a success and the word "great" deserves a better placement than to be referring to ANY deal the yankees have made with RJ.

He was only refering to the Randy Johnson for Barry Zito swap. You threw a microscope on the entire deal, which has absolutely no relevence.

He Hate Me
12-27-2006, 11:56 AM
Oh yeah, missed this part.

Would the Red Sox being able to move Matt clement be a "Great move"? To me it seems like it would be a necessary move, an important move but not a "great move". Despite Gom's tendency to rain on every Sox fan's parade whenever anything good happens for them, he's okay to turn around and start praising the Yankees FO for a "great move" of getting rid of players they never should have spent the farm on in the first place? Does ending a nightmare that never should have started in the first place end up being a "great" move. Is that the type of thing that Yankee or Red Sox fans should walk away, patting themselves on the back about how great their FO is? If so that's pretty weak and that's what I was responding to.

if you can get rid of dead weight for something in return, it is a great move. if your GM can get rid of Clement's salary and get prospects in return, I'd say that's a great move also.

jacksonianmarch
12-28-2006, 08:22 AM
Rumors have been flying around, and while I was away for a few days, I still kept my ear to the ground. The dbacks offered 3 B level prospects and the promise to eat the entire salary. The Yankees turned them down flat. The DBacks have a very deep prospect base, but are unwilling to part with one of their top 5 pitching prospects or one of their top five hitting prospects. Therefore, it wont get done.

As for another team in the race, SD is the frontrunner. Rumor has it, they want RJ at 10 mil a season, asking the yankees to eat 6 mil. But they are apparently willing to throw Scott Linebrink, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and a prospect for him. That package is being mulled, but Randy would have to waive his NT to go there, and that is not certain yet.

As for how this all started, a few weeks ago, Randy's brother died. Cashman called with his condolences and essentially, the call ended in a "I wouldnt mind being closer to home" bit out of Randy. It was not a trade demand, but enough to get the wheels turning. Cashman is trying to shed some payroll and get more flexible, but we'll see if this is all wheels spinning.

Overall, I hate the idea. Randy at his worst last season still at 200IP and won 17 games. As I pointed out, his peripherals were pretty good despite a poor ERA. This was attributed to his inability to avoid the big inning (OPSw/RISP and OPSw/runner one was 200+ points higher than at any point in his career). Therefore a pretty good WHIP and a good K and BB rate translated into a horrible ERA. You put his peripherals from last season against Schilling and you have nearly the same pitcher (more BB on RJs side and more hits on Schillings side). I do not expect him to improve per se, but I think his ability to avoid the big inning is something that his career dictates will return and hence his era will slide, possibly dramatically. Either way, when he returns, which should be by the middle of april at the latest, he will still be in line for a lot of wins and a lot of innings eaten. That is what the yankees need.

At the same time, last yr I was very hard on the red sox when they dealt a guy who ate innings for offense. Dealing RJ for Kouzmanoff may be real nice, and adding a piece to the pen like Linebrink can only help, but without some sort of contingency plan in the rotation, I hate the idea. We saw the red sox trim 6 to 5 and before you knew it only one was standing. While I think the yankees are in a different position altogether in depth, dealing from a position of depth in starting pitching is playing with fire. If the yankees keep RJ, they will have a rotation that looks like this.

1. Wang
2. Mussina
3. Pettitte
4. Johnson
5. Pavano
Igawa in AAA

Without RJ
1. Wang
2. Mussina
3. Pettitte
4. Pavano
5. Igawa

But we are in a different boat than the sox were. Karstens and Rasner both had good debuts in the Bronx last season, proving that at the very least they could be serviceable 5's and go deep into games. Hughes and Sanchez are in AAA and both have the label of MLB ready. Steven White was in the class of Karstens and Rasner and is likely major league ready as well with the caveat that he is likely no better than a 5. So the depth is there. But throwing away a 200IP 17 win machine like Johnson better get a little pitching depth in return. If the "prospect" from SD is a high level starting pitching prospect with no injury history, then I will sign on the deal right away. But if the prospect is another fielder or a reliever, I say no dice.

Mr Crunchy
12-28-2006, 08:54 AM
if they move rj for anyone who isnt capable of pitching 200 innings i would consider the move stupid and would consider it a belated xmas gift for the redsox

jacksonianmarch
12-28-2006, 09:07 AM
if they move rj for anyone who isnt capable of pitching 200 innings i would consider the move stupid and would consider it a belated xmas gift for the redsox

me too.

Mr Crunchy
12-28-2006, 09:16 AM
david wells would still have a job if he wanted 1 in baseball

theres just not enuff lefties for everyone to go around

BSN07
12-28-2006, 10:27 AM
Yanks Want Three Arms For Unit
Yesterday for the East Valley Tribune, Jack Magruder indicated that the Yankees want a trio of young arms from the Diamondbacks in return for Randy Johnson. They want one reliever in the group.

Brandon Medders, a 27 year-old right-handed reliever, is said to be a target. Medders posted a solid 3.64 ERA in 71 innings in 2006, though his 1.68 K/BB ratio is cause for concern. Magruder indicates that Arizona wants to substitute the pricier Luis Vizcaino instead of Medders.

The other pitchers would come out of this group: Edgar Gonzalez, Enrique Gonzalez, Dustin Nippert, Ross Ohlendorf, and Micah Owings. What, no Juan Cruz? Baseball Prospectus's Kevin Goldstein lists Nippert as a "good prospect" and Owings as an "average prospect." The others aren't in the team's top 10. That might be a testament to all the young talent in the organization though.

Magruder doesn't expect the D'Backs to meet this Yankee demand, but perhaps the teams can meet in the middle


I hate the damn NYY, but I have to give it up to Cashman, that SOB could sell ketchup to a tomato farmer. He got three decent prospects for a player coming off of major wrist injury and is past his prime, if he gets 2-3 prospects and passes all of RJ salary to some other team I will be in awe.

Theo has made a couple decent trades, OC and The Beckett/Lowell package( ya we gave up alot but Beckett is going to be a frontline starter for us I believe), but they are nothing compared to what Cashman gets, its like he takes a old BMW that has 300K miles on it, no back tires, and a engine the runs on 2 cylinders and gets back all his money plus a couple of new Mustangs.

Mr Crunchy
12-28-2006, 10:50 AM
hate the damn NYY, but I have to give it up to Cashman, that SOB could sell ketchup to a tomato farmer. He got three decent prospects for a player coming off of major wrist injury and is past his prime, if he gets 2-3 prospects and passes all of RJ salary to some other team I will be in awe

i do kind of like cashman but hes not above criticism
he traded his most feared hitter for these 3 guys
none of which will help him win this season

hes also the guy who traded contreras for.....javier vasquez who they dumped for....
randy johnson
he also traded jeff weaver for kevin brown and soriano for arod

i think hes a good baseball guy who takes his orders from someone else
theres not a lot of independant thinking in the bronx front office i feel

AlexanderTheGreat13
12-28-2006, 11:33 AM
He didnt trade Contreas for Javier Vazquez. He traded Nick Johnson, Juna Rivera and someone else(I think Randy Choate) for Vazquez. He then traded Contreas for Estaban Loaiza.

Mr Crunchy
12-28-2006, 11:41 AM
thanks for the correction sir
esteban loaiza
thats the ticket

by the way
i love the gabe kapler thing

jacksonianmarch
12-28-2006, 11:59 AM
Mr. C. The direction was coming from elsewhere, and if the yankees went out and signed zito, you could assume the direction was continuing to come from elsewhere. But this approach by Cashman is to deepen the arms in the system, and he has done that. He has 3 top 10 pitchers in AAA, yet his most "promising" pitcher lies in single A that he got in the 8th round last yr. Joba is another guy who has shown amazing control and power thus far in the hawaiian league. Sufficed to say, he has restocked the farm with arms. And if he were to make a deal, young arms are the ticket to get what you want, so he has stocked himself up good. If he deals Randy for 3 pitchers, one middle reliever who can help this yr and 2 starters who could be ready this yr or next, then do it. Increasing depth in the pitching rotation is the fastest way to major league success long term. Johnson's dealing wont hurt the team in the form of losing an ace. It will hurt in the terms of saving bullpen. If we get a younger player who can eat innings while having an era near 5, then you do it. By no means would I want solely offense out of this. Good move if he can get it one.

Mr Crunchy
12-28-2006, 02:03 PM
you can assume that barry zito isnt going to nyc and that the deal to arizona is pretty much in the shitter unless the yanks want to commit an early suicide in 07.

as far as the yanks building their farm goes
i agree
it was their modus operandi of success thruout the 90s and so long as steenberger had his hands out of the cookie jar the team and farm both fluorished

unfortunetly georgie had his hands back in the jar come the late 90s thru last year and the team failed

so
is cashman willing to deal their lefty for prospects now that zito is in sanfran or is cashman going to hang onto the old prick and make a run for the roses
i think if the yanks are serious they keep rj

TheKilo
12-28-2006, 06:51 PM
RJ stays put now that Zito's in SF.

26 to 6
12-28-2006, 07:20 PM
hate the damn NYY, but I have to give it up to Cashman, that SOB could sell ketchup to a tomato farmer. He got three decent prospects for a player coming off of major wrist injury and is past his prime, if he gets 2-3 prospects and passes all of RJ salary to some other team I will be in awe

i do kind of like cashman but hes not above criticism
he traded his most feared hitter for these 3 guys
none of which will help him win this season

hes also the guy who traded contreras for.....javier vasquez who they dumped for....
randy johnson
he also traded jeff weaver for kevin brown and soriano for arod

i think hes a good baseball guy who takes his orders from someone else
theres not a lot of independant thinking in the bronx front office i feel
Weaver for Brown, at the time, was considered a very good deal, conbsidering Brown, a big name, successful pitcher in the latter stages of his career would be coming to the Yankees for a year or 2, and we would be able to dump the colossal mistake that was Jeff Weaver, who we would have been stuck with for an extended amount of time. And Soriano, a below average fielder who strikes out and doesnt walk for one of the best players, argueably Top 5, in the history of the game sounded pretty sweet at the time, and honestly, still does.


Honestly, although I agree that it's smart to keep him, I wouldn't mind sending RJ back to Arizona, or anywhere for that matter, if we can get some relief help and some young guys. We have plenty of potential candidates to fill his void on a potentially great pitching staff. Both Rasner and Karstens can do it, or even perhaps a Henn type, or something. Or also, we still have Igawa and Pavano. Maybe having a spot open for him will motivate Pavano to turn it up in the spring and he turns out to be alright. And who knows with Igawa.

example1
12-28-2006, 08:19 PM
He was only refering to the Randy Johnson for Barry Zito swap. You threw a microscope on the entire deal, which has absolutely no relevence.


if you can get rid of dead weight for something in return, it is a great move. if your GM can get rid of Clement's salary and get prospects in return, I'd say that's a great move also.

I guess if you're really micro-managing everything that its a "great" move. I would probably just be happy that RJ is gone if I'm the Yankees, but if you want to go bragging about it being a great move more power to you.

If Arizona gives up ANYONE that will end up in the majors for the Yankees then they are stupid, unless NYY pay almost all of RJs salary. This guy sucks at this point.

example1
12-28-2006, 08:25 PM
Wow...I can't believe my comments went that far. First of all, signing RJ was lauded as a FANTASTIC move. Look at the numbers that RJ had the year before he came to the Yankees. I for one, thought he would be the missing piece. So did pretty much everyone. Now, hindsight is 20/20, but it sure looked like a great move. I would love to hear someone's logic to the contrary.

Secondly, before any of this happens, if it does, I have come here numerous times saying I would love to have Zito, before the Matsuzaka sweepstakes. Also, I have given credit to the Sox numerous times for getting him. However, giving Drew 70 million was a mistake, and the fact that the guy failed his physical may save the Sox from a tremendous mistake.

The fact that you call RJ a nightmare now is understandable. I don't believe you thought so beforehand.

If you start saying so, then I will admit that I thought Beckett would be one of the worst trades the Red Sox have made in 20 years when they made it. As well as I thought that Renteria was going to completely bomb in Boston after being an All-Star caliber shortstop in the NL for years. Also Clement was going to suck royally, and Arroyo would be a first half Cy Young candidate, and Crisp would be an utter waste.

Are you starting to get the picture?

RJ was a great deal when it happened. It didn't pan out that way. The fact that the Yankees can get a prospect or two, or maybe even Linebrink, and not eat any salary, and use that money to get Zito is a fantastic move for the Yankees, if they can pull it off. Period.

Hindsight is 20/20, you're right. While your assessment of some of the Sox moves seems off (Crisp is not an utter waste), I hear ya nonetheless. It would be LUCKY for the Yankees to be able to move RJ. Not a great move. It would depend on a really stupid move by Arizona. People aren't going to come out to see RJ once they realize he's no good. The guy can't hit 93 anymore.

jacksonianmarch
12-28-2006, 10:22 PM
Johnson for Zito is futile now, but I never advocated it. Zito in NY would have been a huge mistake. Johnson right now would be a solid #4 pitcher in NY and would eat 200 innings at least. At best, he is an ace who owns. But then again, the yankees have 5 options other than Johnson that are capable of eating innings plus 2 guys who had a good debut last yr as well as a bunch of young kids ready to make the leap. Dealing Johnson is not something that will detonate our chances of winning. But dealing Johnson better have its benefits. In that deal, I would expect the yankees to add pitching. Potentially one young MLB ready pitcher who could repeat RJ's last season performance (200+IP and a 5ERA). If they can get that plus more, then do it. Otherwise, the 43 yr old creaky backed, bad kneed, bad attituded big bird is more worthwhile here than in another organization. In the NLW he will be an ace again. In the ALE, he is a mid rotation pitcher.

jacksonianmarch
12-29-2006, 08:44 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/484072p-407473c.html

This is getting interesting. The NY Daily is reporting that the yanks and dbacks are closing in on a deal here. The report is that the yankees have asked for a middle reliever (Medders is their top option but Vizcaino is a guy who may be available) plus two top pitching prospects and from the sounds of it, the dbacks are willing to oblige. The rationale for the dbacks is that their gate attendance plummetted after they went belly up and nobody is going back to the games, even though they were in the race last season and have a young core of exciting position players. So they need a gate attraction, and Johnson is precisely what they want to return the team to championship attendance.

As for the holdup, the dbacks want to negotiate an extension with RJ which will take trade negotiations into next week.

If Cashman gets 2 power pitching prospects then he is amazing.

Here are the 3 pitchers in question, 2 of which may be heading to NY

Micah Owings- just turned 24. Is 6'5". Was a combined 16-2 between AAA and AA last season with a 3.33ERA in 162IP. He gave up a hit per inning, K'd 130 and walked 52. He is a power pitcher in his first season as a starter in the minors after being in the pen after being drated out of tulane in 05. He is the DBacks #4 prospect in the organization, which is saying something.

Dustin Nippert. 25yr old 6'8" power pitcher with a solid curveball. Had much success in the minors and earned a callup in 05, pitching in 3 starts, going 1-0 with an era north of 5. Last season, had a rough yr in AAA going 13-8 in 140IP with an era of 4.87, 162 hits, 132K's and 52BB. Over his minor league career, he started as a power pitcher with no control. Now, his control is improving and projects as a #3 pitcher with the ceiling of a #1. He needs to develop a third pitch in order to have continued success in the majors. He is following the career path of the player he might be traded for. Tall, lanky, lacking control initially, then finding it late.

Ross Ohlendorf may be the best of them all. He turned 24 in August. He is a 6'4" 235lb "bulldog" who tops out in the high 90s but has plus control. Out of Princeton, this kid has shown amazing command for a power pitcher, walking on 29 in 182IP in AA/AAA last season. He was 10-8 with a 3.25ERA and had 129K's as well. Of all the pitchers in the minors for the dbacks, this kid has the frame and has already handled the load to be a 5th starter in the majors and handle a 200IP workload.

Their pitchers all seem to have power stuff but K much less than 1 per inning. It seems to be an organizational philosophy to cut down on walks and work location rather than blow it by these guys. All 3 of these pitchers have shown plus control while having good K rates, but all 3 gave up a hit per inning. Interesting. Another thing I like is that all 3 have a track record of durability and have gone to the 150IP plateau, which means they are ready for the jump- arm-wise - to the majors. If we can get Owings and Nippert or Ohlendorf, I'd be friggin ecstatic.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
12-29-2006, 08:59 AM
good stuff jacks. I hope that report is right and that a deal is close. I found another article saying a deal is not imminent:



A person familiar with the process, who asked not to be identified because nothing has been consummated, said there is "nothing imminent" in the Randy Johnson trade talks. But there is some belief a resolution could be reached within a week.


http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/11673724485920.xml&coll=1

jacksonianmarch
12-29-2006, 09:10 AM
good stuff jacks. I hope that report is right and that a deal is close. I found another article saying a deal is not imminent:



http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/11673724485920.xml&coll=1

but that same article says that a deal could be finalized by next week. Nothing is "imminent" so to speak right now, because the dbacks need to negotiate an extension. All I gotta say is, adding 2 power pitching AAA kids to the mix cannot hurt. Imagine if this deal gets done and Owings and Nippert are the guys coming over.

You have a rotation of
Wang- 27yrs old
Mussina- 38yrs old
Pettitte- 34yrs old
Igawa- 27yrs old
Pavano- 31yrs old

with a AAA rotation of
Hughes 20yrs old
Sanchez 23yrs old
Clippard 21yrs old
Owings 24yrs old
Nippert 25yrs old

with Chamberlain, Betances, and Kennedy in lower levels. MAN, that will be something. I have a feeling some of these kids will be considered untouchables and we'd turn around and deal the others in a package and get a pitcher who has some REAL MLB impact. I know Zambrano will be on the block this yr when the cubbies suck, and they will. I wonder if Minny falls out of it, would they, could they. I wont even finish that dream.

Mr Crunchy
12-29-2006, 10:06 AM
You have a rotation of
Wang- 27yrs old
Mussina- 38yrs old
Pettitte- 34yrs old
Igawa- 27yrs old
Pavano- 31yrs old

i find it remarkable that anyone who likes the yankees would pencil pavano into any scenario
i think if the yanks move rj i feel theyre not planning on winning in 07
you dont trade 200 ip and 17 wins if youre sincere about the here and now

AlexanderTheGreat13
12-29-2006, 10:20 AM
To be honest I dont think RJ was giving us 200 innings this year anyway. He is coming off of major back surgery and some people dont expect him to be ready for opening day. So with that said I dont think he is a lock for 200 innings and 17 wins again.

jacksonianmarch
12-29-2006, 10:21 AM
The top 3 can be penned in. The last 2 can be pencilled in. The fact is, RJ's production from last season is replaceable so long as you have a guy who can give you innings. Pavano, if healthy (LOLOLOLOLOL) can do that. If he isnt healthy (more like when), then you have a stable of young pitchers available. I like our top 3. They should average 200 innings pitched which will be the anchor of the rotation. Igawa is a mystery, but his biggest asset is durability, and 200IP out of him is certainly a possibility. Durability as a 4 is something the yankees have lacked since 03. That leaves the 5 hole. If Pavano is actually "working his ass off" in florida and comes into camp in shape and healthy, he will be a fine #5. If he comes in and his ass actually fell off (which is a possibility) then you have 2 guys who had successful debuts in the bronx last yr in Karstens and Rasner. Next in line would be the 2 kids picked up in the RJ trade and then you hit the top 3 that the yankees currently own.

I will give you this. Looking at the known quantities, RJ is certainly a guy I'd rather have right now, December 06 in my rotation. But his last season's performance isnt hard to recoup. He was 33rd out of 39 pitchers who qualified in the AL in ERA. He had 7.5 runs a game in run support. I find it hard to believe that touted rookies will give you less so long as they stay healthy. And it isnt like I am asking these kids to be #3 or #2 starters. I am asking them to be #5's. And if they rise the ranks then fine. And I am certainly not relying on one rookie like the sox did with Lester last season. If RJ gets dealt and 2 top 10's come over, the yankees will have 5 top 10 pitchers in their AAA rotation. THAT is depth, that allows for them to find which one or two can be good. Depth is what makes pitching staffs effective. You cannot go into a season without contingency plans. Add to that, the fact that the yankees have probably the best offense in baseball and a damn good bullpen, and you have the fertile ground to foster the growth of one of these kids. I mean christ, it is about friggin time one of our teams developed a reliable pitcher. Over the past few yrs we have each developed 1, Wang on our side, and Paps on yours (as a closer, jury is still out as a starter).

BudLight
12-29-2006, 10:27 AM
Maybe, just maybe what Cashman has been stating all Winter is true. He is building a stable of young pitchers for the future. I have no problem with that. Seems to me the last time the Yankees were serious about building from within, they went on a pretty good run of WS championships. Good strategy, RJ is useless after 2007 (maybe before depending on his back), Mussina is getting close to retirement and Pettite is a question mark after 2007 ( he wasn't even sure he would pitch in 2007). With the price of pitchers this off-season it's a much better bet to build your own replacements than have to deal on the FA market next Winter.

jacksonianmarch
12-29-2006, 10:37 AM
Well, it is the one thing the yankees could not consistently buy. Great pitchers get locked up prior to FA. Good pitchers mostly get locked up prior to FA and a rare few make it to FA. Those that do get bids from tons of teams believing they are the final piece,hence the price is fantastically high. Overall, if you want to get the best pitchers in baseball, you either develop them or trade for them. Building a stable of young power arms (aside from Clippard) is a great way to maybe find the next great pitcher. It also allows you to package a few and deal them off for a great pitcher right now. Cashman knows how the game is played, and I think he is dipping into our past trying to make our future solid.

I also love how he saved our draft pick this yr. This draft is supposed to be incredibly deep and with the yankees deep pockets, they may be able to sign a few guys who would initially be deemed unsignable. We finally have a decent head to go on the yankee shoulders. If you add the financial power to a great farm, then you have the makeup for one hell of an organization. Cash is doing it right. If that means we sacrifice today for tomorrow, so be it.

jacksonianmarch
12-29-2006, 10:39 AM
plus, if you can trade a guy coming off back surgery who is 43 and has one yr left on his contract for 2 top notch pitchers, 1 who may actually be a success in a yankee uniform for years to come, then do it, and do it NOW.

Mr Crunchy
12-29-2006, 11:06 AM
cant argue with that logic men

but come september when you have iguana coming into fenway in a must win situation you may regret this

for the 1st time in 10 years i feel the yankees are making a bank
its good long term stategy but its not conducive to a win at all costs mentality that has perservered in the bronx since 1973

BudLight
12-29-2006, 11:10 AM
cant argue with that logic men

but come september when you have iguana coming into fenway in a must win situation you may regret this

for the 1st time in 10 years i feel the yankees are making a bank
its good long term stategy but its not conducive to a win at all costs mentality that has perservered in the bronx since 1973

Agreed Sean, but I like the "new" strategy by Cashman. In building for the future they may be sacrificing the near term, but, with that offense I don't think you can really count them out in 07. Plus, they have some major league ready arms in AAA right now. Their effectiveness in the show has yet to be proven, but you could say the same about the Tigers young staff last year.

Mr Crunchy
12-29-2006, 11:23 AM
if i were you bb
i too would prefer this operational change

its out of the stick michael book of baseball that did the yanks so well over the years
it was only when the felonious cocksucker demanded a win at all costs mentality did the yanks actually stop winning

anyone realize the yanks havent won a title with a payroll over 100M?
in fact
i think the 04 sox were the only team in bball history to win a title with a payroll over 100M

BudLight
12-29-2006, 11:25 AM
if i were you bb
i too would prefer this operational change

its out of the stick michael book of baseball that did the yanks so well over the years
it was only when the felonious cocksucker demanded a win at all costs mentality did the yanks actually stop winning

anyone realize the yanks havent won a title with a payroll over 100M?
in fact
i think the 04 sox were the only team in bball history to win a title with a payroll over 100M


No argument there. Again, I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the folks in the FO.

jacksonianmarch
12-29-2006, 08:02 PM
if i were you bb
i too would prefer this operational change

its out of the stick michael book of baseball that did the yanks so well over the years
it was only when the felonious cocksucker demanded a win at all costs mentality did the yanks actually stop winning

anyone realize the yanks havent won a title with a payroll over 100M?
in fact
i think the 04 sox were the only team in bball history to win a title with a payroll over 100M

Cashman is really making the farm pretty damn formidable. If he deals RJ and essentially has 5 top 10 pitchers in AAA as well as a durable major league rotation (1-4 at least) then you are doing your job. Add that to likely the best offense in baseball and the best closer in the history of the game (as well as a fireballing relief core aorund him) and you have a team set up for today and even better setup for tomorrow.

riverside sluggers
12-30-2006, 05:05 AM
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1167457026175360.xml&coll=1

The deal could be done as soon as today. The D-Backs should wear dunce caps if they actually bend over and assume all the $16 million owed to RJ this season

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 06:38 AM
and the ledger was the paper yesterday that said nothing was imminent. I would be completely shocked if we get 2 starting pitching prospects and Medders. Man, Cashman would have turned two old malcontents into 6 damn good pitching prospects. WOWZAH.

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 07:01 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12302006/sports/yankees/in_the_zona_yankees_joel_sherman.htm

the more $$ the yankees eat, the more talent they will get in return. EAT ALL OF IT CASH AND FLEECE THE BACKS!

The Yankees are trying to actually reserve that cash for another aging ace, Roger Clemens. I would assume Cashman has had to have talked to old man clem by now if he is their contingency plan.

riverside sluggers
12-30-2006, 07:15 AM
No reason for them to stop the pillaging now, the Cardinals & Mets are struggling to find starting pitching help... who's to say they wouldnt mind taking Carl Pavano?

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 07:17 AM
No reason for them to stop the pillaging now, the Cardinals & Mets are struggling to find starting pitching help... who's to say they wouldnt mind taking Carl Pavano?

Why the hell not? The top 4 in the rotation should equate to 200 innings a piece. I wouldnt be overly sad if the 5 hole turned into audition time for one of the 7 young options. Man, we went from a shit farm system to a pitching loaded farm to now a pitching overloaded farm. I have a feeling this stockpile is more than just trying to retool our rotation from within.

elsrbueno
12-30-2006, 10:13 AM
and the ledger was the paper yesterday that said nothing was imminent. I would be completely shocked if we get 2 starting pitching prospects and Medders. Man, Cashman would have turned two old malcontents into 6 damn good pitching prospects. WOWZAH.

Finally, we can agree on something Jacko.

I would also be shocked if the Yankees get Medders + 2 good prospects for Johnson. In my mind, he's a huge question mark just because of his back surgery alone, not to mention his mediocre pitching last year. He'll benefit from moving to the NL West and out of New York (where he was never really comfortable) but this is not the Randy Johnson that the Yankees got 2 years ago.

Like others have said, the talent received will be directly proportional to the money subsidized by the Yankees.

I can see the motivation to bring Randy back to the desert, and in the winnable NL West he may actually make them a contender, but they have to keep things in perspective and not overpay for him. This seems as inevitable as Randy coming to NY 2 years ago, so I'll reserve judgement until after the final package is announced.

a700hitter
12-30-2006, 12:43 PM
Why the hell not? The top 4 in the rotation should equate to 200 innings a piece. I wouldnt be overly sad if the 5 hole turned into audition time for one of the 7 young options. Man, we went from a shit farm system to a pitching loaded farm to now a pitching overloaded farm. I have a feeling this stockpile is more than just trying to retool our rotation from within.I must be missing something. If the Unit gets traded, who follows Wang, Moose and Pettitte? Pavano? That would be scary. It seems to me that there would be two gaping holes in the rotation. This movement of older established players for prospects is becoming a systematic dismantling of the Yankee team. This might bear fruit two or three years down the road, but the 2007 team's chance are being sacrificed by the Yankee FO.

riverside sluggers
12-30-2006, 12:53 PM
If Pavano was traded for prospects, we'd see an opening day rotation of

Wang
Petitte
Mussina
Igawa
Karstens & Rasner filling the #5 role until expected mid-season debut of Hughes

a700hitter
12-30-2006, 01:05 PM
If Pavano was traded for prospects, we'd see an opening day rotation of

Wang
Petitte
Mussina
Igawa
Karstens & Rasner filling the #5 role until expected mid-season debut of HughesOh, I forgot about Igawa.

TheKilo
12-30-2006, 01:33 PM
Fucking DBacks.

Oh well.

Gom
12-30-2006, 03:03 PM
Trading Randy Johnson for the Yankees is a godsend if no cash is involved. Next year's free agent class is much better than this one, and the Yankees are showing some great foresight in signing good, older players to short deals to allow their system to develop within. Short deals for Mussina, Pettite, Abreu, etc., are just the band aid the Yankees need to retool their system.

With a lot of big spenders having fired their bullets, next year's free agent class is going to be a turkey shoot for the Yankees and Mets.

SchillingIsTheNatural
12-30-2006, 04:21 PM
Anyone mentioning Carl Pavano for prospects.....why would any team offer any prospects for him. Pavano is no longer effective after missing so much time in the past couple seasons. Teams that are desperate for pitching would most likely look internally before even considering picking up Pavano for nothing, let alone a trade. If a baseball team made a trade for Pavano they are just doing the Yankees a favor...thats all.

As for the Diamondbacks trading for Randy Johnson. I can't go into great depth until I know the final deal but......trading young players for a 43 year old coming off surgery and owed tons of money? Do the D-backs really think Randy Johnson will get them to the playoffs and win the World Series? That has to be the plan cause why else would you make this move? Clearly not looking to the future of the team which they should after parting with Shawn Green and Luis Gonzalez. Time to start the rebuilding process.....or on second thought....do the Yankees a favor.

Gom
12-30-2006, 06:10 PM
You guys are all nuts.

Randy Johnson was brought in to win in the post-season. He has failed miserably.

He has had back surgery and is not expected to start the season. Literally any pitcher in baseball could have had his record with 7.5 run support per game that he averaged last year.

17 wins for this guy is the most misleading stat in baseball outside of Beckett's wins last year. Both were horrible. At least Beckett had a chance, a realistic one, of being better.

The Yankees finished 11 games ahead of the Sox. The signing of Drew (?), Matsuzaka, and Lugo do not make up the difference between them and the Yankees if you figure in the losses of Sheffield, Wright, and potentially Randy Johnson and the bringing in of Britton, Pettitte, and Igawa.

The Yankees have gotten younger, shed some bloated contracts, and given themselves serious ammunition for a deadline deal [ala Abreu] next season. The Yankee strategy of signing stopgaps until their system improves over time is a no-brainer.

Randy Johnson is a mediocre pitcher. One whose statistics can be easily replaced by any above average Triple A pitcher. Anyone who watched the Yankees last year can tell you that Karstens outpitched RJ. So give him a shot. Open up a spot for Clemens. Offer up half the farm for Zambrano if the Cubs fall out of it. Getting rid of RJ is a boon for the Yankees.

riverside sluggers
12-30-2006, 06:21 PM
Yea the Red Sox arent going to be contenders for the AL East in 07, keep telling yourself that. Oh and I totally agree, Matsuzaka does not help the Red Sox gain any ground (in December) on the Yankees because heck they have Kei Igawa

CrespoBlows
12-30-2006, 06:49 PM
17 wins for this guy is the most misleading stat in baseball outside of Beckett's wins last year. Both were horrible. At least Beckett had a chance, a realistic one, of being better.

Randy Johnson also had several other stats, that were worth a glance.

WHIP: 1.24
K/9: 7.55

He's not as bad as his ERA indicated. Going to the NL, and out of the AL East, should help his numbers out. He probably could post a low 4.00 ERA in the AL next year, if he can lower his .366 BABIP with RISP. (which skyrocketed his numbers)



The Yankees finished 11 games ahead of the Sox. The signing of Drew (?), Matsuzaka, and Lugo do not make up the difference between them and the Yankees if you figure in the losses of Sheffield, Wright, and potentially Randy Johnson and the bringing in of Britton, Pettitte, and Igawa.

Probably not, but the gap is not as big as you make it seem. Drew and Lugo will boost the offense. Matsuzaka will boost the starting rotation. Losing Johnson, and Sheffield makes the Yankees a weaker team. Melky Cabrera won't come close to making Sheffield's numbers, nor will Jeff Karstens.



The Yankees have gotten younger, shed some bloated contracts, and given themselves serious ammunition for a deadline deal [ala Abreu] next season. The Yankee strategy of signing stopgaps until their system improves over time is a no-brainer.

Depends how much the D-Backs are willing to eat. Then again, if the Yankees are in a position to make a trade, they'll do it. No matter, if Johnson is traded.



Randy Johnson is a mediocre pitcher. One whose statistics can be easily replaced by any above average Triple A pitcher. Anyone who watched the Yankees last year can tell you that Karstens outpitched RJ. So give him a shot. Open up a spot for Clemens. Offer up half the farm for Zambrano if the Cubs fall out of it. Getting rid of RJ is a boon for the Yankees.

I agree, that this is a great trade for 2008 for the Yankees, but it will be hurting them in 2007. Karstens is not a major league starting pitcher. His BABIP was .246, which indicates that he is rather lucky. He allowed 40 hits in 42 innings, even with those lucky numbers. Can you imagine how many hits he's going to allow, when his luck evens out?

His K/9 rate is very low for an AL pitcher. (3.88) It would be different if he's getting a lot of ground balls, but he's not. (.48) He can't expect to live in Yankee Stadium giving up a lot of contact, and a lot of flyballs.

Gom
12-30-2006, 07:07 PM
You guys fall in love with BABIP, and K/9 ratio. Admittedly, it is a very strong indicator, but you guys sometimes treat it as the holy grail.

The art of pitching is deception. He isn't deceptive. However, his forte was brute power. He has lost that ability for the most part.

His whip admittedly is lower than what his ERA predicates. However, he falls off drastically. He can be sailing for 4 innings, and completely falls apart in one inning, before the pen even gets a chance to warm up.

This is a good trade for the Yankees in 2007. The Yankees WILL make the playoffs, with or without RJ. The players they get will help them in a trade for this year, either now, at the trade deadline, or will hopefully mature into major league pitchers. This also gives them an ability to increase their payroll since they shed some payroll in the process [Clemens?]. They have made the playoffs for 12 straight years, and will again next year. It's about who can help them win in the post-season as well as not tax their bullpen in the process. Randy Johnson did neither for the Yankees. After seeing the success rookies and journeyman have had in the post season, I would give someone else a chance. I can win 17 games with 7.5 runs of support.

Randy Johnson will have a decent season in Arizona. I would rather see Igawa. He can't be any worse. The Yankees won in the post season in seasons past because of good starting pitching and relief. Their starters consistently gave them 7 innings. I remember Pettitte being the weak link innings-wise.

Wright hurt more than he helped. Win or lose, he burned your pen. Johnson is heading in that direction. So is Mussina, but at least he is saavy enough to sail through a few more innings than RJ. The guy is no longer a pitcher you can depend on. Time to move him now, rather than just let him go for nothing at the end. It's not like the Yankees can't turn around and trade the same three players they get for a pitcher better than RJ right now. To tell you the truth, I don't even know what the hell the Diamondbacks are thinking.

As for losing Sheffield, he wasn't around last season for the most part. So losing him is not an appreciable loss for the Yankees when comparing 2008 to 2007. Mirabelli had much more of an impact for your team than Sheffield did for ours.

Plus, are any of you taking into consideration that he is coming off major back surgery, will not be available at the start of the season, and is 43? Exactly what should the Yankees look forward to if they keep this guy? You really think he will be as good (sic) as he was last year?

AlexanderTheGreat13
12-30-2006, 07:12 PM
I dont think losing Sheffield will hurt us considering he really didnt contribute much to the team last year anyway. We got Abreu to replace Sheff. Melky should only be a 4th OFer. Trading RJ can be somewhat questionable however I think Johnson is a question mark coming into 2007 anyway. Hes a year older coming off back surgery and the stats you site are heading in the wrong direction after 2 years with us so I fear where they will be in the 3rd year. But you are right going back to the NL West will help him.

CrespoBlows
12-30-2006, 07:15 PM
Plus, are any of you taking into consideration that he is coming off major back surgery, will not be available at the start of the season, and is 43? Exactly what should the Yankees look forward to if they keep this guy? You really think he will be as good (sic) as he was last year?

No, I think the Yankees should make this trade. Even if it makes them weaker in 2007. The Yankees will likely net two pitchers who will make an impact in 2008. Nippert is a good number three in his prime, and Medders is another good arm in the bullpen. That's a good catch for Randy Johnson.

I, along with you, think Johnson will have a decent year. He'd probably have a low 4.00 ERA with the Yankees, and that could dip even lower in the NL. It's only for that reason why I think the Yankees will be weaker in 2007. Igawa, probably won't be able to match those number. Neither will Karstens.

CrespoBlows
12-30-2006, 07:19 PM
I dont think losing Sheffield will hurt us considering he really didnt contribute much to the team last year anyway. We got Abreu to replace Sheff. Melky should only be a 4th OFer. Trading RJ can be somewhat questionable however I think Johnson is a question mark coming into 2007 anyway.

I penciled Sheff in at DH, I assume Cabrera will play in left, and Matsui to DH?



Hes a year older coming off back surgery and the stats you site are heading in the wrong direction after 2 years with us so I fear where they will be in the 3rd year. But you are right going back to the NL West will help him.

They are headed in reverse, but they are still above average when you compare them with other pitchers across the league.

AlexanderTheGreat13
12-30-2006, 07:32 PM
I penciled Sheff in at DH, I assume Cabrera will play in left, and Matsui to DH?



They are headed in reverse, but they are still above average when you compare them with other pitchers across the league.
From what I understand Matsui will play LF and Giambi will DH. From what it sounds like they are talking to Doug Mientkiewicz(I'm not a big fan) about 1B and I have heard some rumors that they asked Arizona for Conor Jackson but thats highly unlikely. As for Units stats, they might be above average now but its trending down plus back surgery plus being in the AL East.....I'd rather part ways now and get value for him then rolling the dice in 07 and getting nothing after.

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 08:42 PM
I must be missing something. If the Unit gets traded, who follows Wang, Moose and Pettitte? Pavano? That would be scary. It seems to me that there would be two gaping holes in the rotation. This movement of older established players for prospects is becoming a systematic dismantling of the Yankee team. This might bear fruit two or three years down the road, but the 2007 team's chance are being sacrificed by the Yankee FO.

.700, Igawa follows Pettitte. Igawa is slated as a #4/5 and his #1 desirable trait is his durability. He averaged over 200IP in his past 6 seasons (and led the league in K's 3 times). I do not think that 200IP and a sub 5 era is out of the question for this guy, which would essentially replace RJ's production.

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 09:24 PM
everyone talks about the loss of sheffield as a big loss. We finished 11 games up without sheffield for the most part. We are taking last yrs team, subtracting Jaret Wright and Randy Johnson, adding 2 young power relievers, 5 top pitching prospects, a full yr of Abreu and Matsui, Pettitte and Igawa. And maybe there is a certain 45 yr old coming to town?

a700hitter
12-30-2006, 09:31 PM
everyone talks about the loss of sheffield as a big loss. We finished 11 games up without sheffield for the most part. We are taking last yrs team, subtracting Jaret Wright and Randy Johnson, adding 2 young power relievers, 5 top pitching prospects, a full yr of Abreu and Matsui, Pettitte and Igawa. And maybe there is a certain 45 yr old coming to town?If the yankees trade Unit, they will have gotten weaker this off-season and the Red Sox have gotten stronger. And you can forget the 45 year old pitching in NY this year. That ain't gonna happen.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
12-30-2006, 09:38 PM
And you can forget the 45 year old pitching in NY this year. That ain't gonna happen.

link?

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 09:42 PM
link?

agreed. 700 is gonna fall hard when roger is a yankee.

a700hitter
12-30-2006, 09:44 PM
agreed. 700 is gonna fall hard when roger is a yankee.I'll be right here if it happens, but I won't be wrong. My $ is on Houston if he plays again.

BTW: I was right about Dice K as I never wavered from my position that Boras had no options and no leverage as you and others engaged in one cockamamie scheme and conspiracy theory after another. My record remains unblemished, but I'll be here to take the heat if I am wrong on this one.

a700hitter
12-30-2006, 09:45 PM
link?
Where's your link?

Coco's Disciples
12-30-2006, 09:58 PM
http://mvn.com/mlb-yankees/2006/12/30/yankees-trade-unit/

Nippert and Owings is what they say.

Another rumor reports Conor Jackson, and the Yankees give up someone else.

Gom
12-30-2006, 10:23 PM
I'll be right here if it happens, but I won't be wrong. My $ is on Houston if he plays again.

BTW: I was right about Dice K as I never wavered from my position that Boras had no options and no leverage as you and others engaged in one cockamamie scheme and conspiracy theory after another. My record remains unblemished, but I'll be here to take the heat if I am wrong on this one.

I actually think he'll end up in Boston. If I was going to bet, he's going to Beantown.

In that case, I hope and pray that me and a700 are both wrong.

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 11:24 PM
The MVN is reporting that the yankees are willing to add another prospect in the deal and get Conor Jackson, a power hitting right handed 1b in return. Not a terribly reliable source and no I have no link, but this is just getting better and better.

example1
12-30-2006, 11:40 PM
The MVN is reporting that the yankees are willing to add another prospect in the deal and get Conor Jackson, a power hitting right handed 1b in return. Not a terribly reliable source and no I have no link, but this is just getting better and better.

Would you be okay if they moved Humberto Sanchez for Conor Jackson in this deal? I know Sanchez hasn't been brought up, but Jackson is a solid player so I imagine the prospect the Yanks will throw in will be a top 10 spec. Just a guess. :dunno: :dunno:

jacksonianmarch
12-30-2006, 11:47 PM
Would you be okay if they moved Humberto Sanchez for Conor Jackson in this deal? I know Sanchez hasn't been brought up, but Jackson is a solid player so I imagine the prospect the Yanks will throw in will be a top 10 spec. Just a guess. :dunno: :dunno:

Depends on what else comes over. I want to add to the pitching depth rather than subtract from it. While Jackson would be a fantastic piece to add and would make mientkiewicz, phillips, and phelps useless, he is not a pitcher and is not a kill or be killed need for this team. Hence, I would actually rather them include Melky with RJ and send back Owings and Jackson. I REALLY like Owings. A LOT. He is the most polished of the three being talked about. What I didnt know about the other guy, Ohlinger (sp?) is that he dropped his FB speed about 10mph, and we already have 2 location/slow crafty types in the minors, we dont need more. So Owings is a must in this deal.

For me though, if we dont add in any more of our pitching and we get young pitching in return, then I am happy. Anything else is gravy. Then again, nabbing both Jackson and Owings would be like a wet dream. Take their best pitcher and a 24 yr old power hitting 1b who just happens to be right handed. Crazy shit this RJ is worth. And the best of all, is that he may not even take the mound pain free until 2008.

jacksonianmarch
12-31-2006, 12:03 AM
http://nyynews.com/

This site is reporting the deal has been agreed to. Take it for what it is worth, but other yankee sites say it is an okay site, not always right but not full of BS.

To the DBacks
Randy Johnson
$2-4 million

To the Yankees
Dustin Nippert
Micah Owings
Luis Vizcaino

STEAL. Overall

Randy Johnson
Gary Sheffield
Jaret Wright
6-8 mil

for

Humberto Sanchez
Anthony Claggett
Kevin Whelan
Chris Britton
Dustin Nippert
Micah Owings
Luis Vizcaino

(in bold are top 10 prosptect, in italics are MLB players).

Steals, all of them, and they clear 30 mil off the books too. WOWZAH.

Coco's Disciples
12-31-2006, 12:11 AM
Gotta agree.

jacksonianmarch
12-31-2006, 12:25 AM
Gotta agree.

Man, I will sleep well tonight. I find it interesting that people on this site are saying that dealing RJ is sacrificing the now. RJ is coming off back surgery as a 43 yr old 6'11" pitcher. He isnt expected to pick up a baseball again until mid spring training at least and may not take a mound in a game until May (possibly at the earliest). He wont be pitching without pain for a long time. Also, consider that he was pushed down to the #4 position and all we got out of him was 205IP and a 5ERA and he was far from irreplaceable. Igawa is 27, a lefty, and has the durability track record to make it a much easier transition. As a 4, Igawa should easily replace 200IP and a 5ERA at the very least. This then opens up the 5 hole to be Pavano's if he stays healthy, then an audition for the last spot if he is not.

On another note, this gives the yankees 5 top 10 pitching prospects in AAA. Rasner and Karstens, who pitched better than RJ (much better btw) down the stretch will be in the mix as well. Then consider the leaps and bounds Chamberlain made down the stretch (in hawaii, 46K 3BB in 40IP) and the fact that the yankees 2nd best pitching prospect is gonna be in single A next yr in Betances and you have grounds to make a deal. Now, one thing I saw today was the twins realization that resigning Santana is out of the question. With Liriano on the shelf for all of 07 and Radke in the rocking chair, the twins may fall out of the race fast, and if they do, look for them to take offers on Johan. This may be a pre-eptive move to pull him out of Minnesota. Or at the very least, to pull Zambrano out of that Chicago cesspool. Arms is where it is at these days. Restock your rotation with them or package them for some pitching now. I like our direction.

Then consider what we gave away. Wright was griping in 05 about not having a spot when he tore his vag against the rangers. Then he comes out and never makes it past the 6th last season, throwing 137IP in 30 starts. Sheffield was a constant headache and was injured for almost all of last yr. RJ was a bust in NY, is injured, and wants to go home. SHAZAM!! Cashman turns those 3 into 30 mil of cap space and 4 top 10 prospects, one long range pitcher, and 2 power armed relievers. Cashman is showing his mettle. Imagine what he could bilk out of another team if he dangled A-Choke.

a700hitter
12-31-2006, 01:06 AM
David Ortiz is glad that he won't have to face him.

Gom
12-31-2006, 01:54 AM
David Ortiz is glad that he won't have to face him.

Pretty much everyone else on the Sox is pissed he's leaving, lol.

I don't know how reliable these sources are though. Anyone have a more solid confirmation?

jacksonianmarch
12-31-2006, 07:35 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/484517p-407919c.html

As expected, the cash is being the holdup for right now. The NYDaily is taking it a bit too far. We all knew that once it got down to the money, it would take awhile, and RJ is vacationing in Hawaii so nothing can really be finished right now anyway. Rumor has it, they had agreed to a deal, but RJ will need to agree to an extension, and while he has 40mil already owed in deferred payments, the DBacks were hoping they would include that into his 2008 salary. This will take awhile to conclude, but the whole money issue may play wonders for NY. The Yankees apparently have settled for a package of Vizcaino/Medder, Owings, and Nippert/Ohlendorf. If the DBacks want more $$$, then the yankees will ask for Enrique Gonzalez and other pitchers who may be in the DBack rotation for 07.

We have them over a barrel. They need him to generate some revenue. They are willing to throw top talent at us without us eating his whole salary. We can really rape that farm if they want more cash. Kudos Cashman.

jacksonianmarch
12-31-2006, 07:42 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12312006/sports/yankees/yanks_seek_an_upgrade_over_unit_yankees_andrew_mar chand.htm

RJ's agent is now refusing to declining comment over whether he is negotiating an extension with the DBacks. A few days ago he had said nobody has contacted him.

jacksonianmarch
12-31-2006, 03:02 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcwNDkzODUmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2

Yankees, Unit parting ways is the title.

a700hitter
12-31-2006, 04:13 PM
I don't think this will happen too fast. Once they decide on a package, they'll need ample time to go over the Unit's medical records and negotiate an extension.

jacksonianmarch
12-31-2006, 04:25 PM
I agree. I figure the package can be agreed upon, but the financials will hold this thing back for 2-3 days at least as more than a mil will be changing hands and Johnson will need a contract extension.

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 09:53 AM
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cheapseats/gambo/0110rant.html

Cashman is about to fleece the shit out of the DBacks should be the title of this article. The DBacks want cash relief. They want Randy to defer some of his 2007 money into his 2008 extension, then speed up some of the deferred payments already owed and essentially make RJ play in 2008 for money he would earn anyway. I dont see him buying that one. SOOOOOOOOOOOO. In come the yankees. They have asked for Medders, and 2 of 3 of their pitching prospects Nippert, Ohlendorf and Owings assuming they eat 2-4 mil. That was reported ad nauseum by all reports. But now the AZ central is reporting that the yankees want a young infield prospect thrown into the mix as well. One can only assume the yankees are willing to throw more cash into the pot. Cashman has em over a barrel and he will use his deep pockets to essentially buy more DBack minor league talent. He is really showing us that he is a great GM.

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 12:41 PM
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/2007/01/status-of-johnson-trade.html

the diamondbacks have officially requested a 72 hour negotiating window with Randy. This means that the yankees and dbacks have successfully agreed to a deal and now it is up to the DBacks to make a deal.

The likely scenario is that the yankees and dbacks agreed to conditional deals, potentially more than one based on the amount of money the dbacks will ask for. For example, if the yankees pay 2-4 mil they will get 2 prospects and a reliever. If they are asked to kick in 5-6 mil they get more. 10 mil a lot more, etc. This is pure speculation, but I would assume this is the case as the dbacks really have no idea how much Randy will want for an extension, so a lot will come down to the amount the yankees are willing to pay.

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 12:52 PM
a new rumor has arisen. I dont have a link for this one, but it seems to be all over yankee boards. The new rumor is that the Yankees and DBacks have agreed to a deal involving reliever Brandon Medders, Micah Owings, and first baseman Chris Carter. Carter just turned 24. He is a 6 foot 225lb first baseman who hit

.301 19HR 97RBI 10SB in AAA in 2006.

In 351 minor league games, he has

1331AB 409H .307AVG 78doubles 67HR 282RBI with a .396OBP .526SLG and a .922OPS.

This kid can MASH. No idea how he is defensively. He is left handed which is good in yankee stadium but bad in our lineup. But this deal would net us a rookie 1b with lots of pop, a potential middle of the order starter with lots of polish and a young power reliever with 1.5 seasons of semi-success in the majors. Not bad haul if this works. GO CASHMAN!!

ORS
01-02-2007, 01:49 PM
Here Jacko, these ought to make things a little easier....

http://www.avca.org/camp/kneepads.jpg

BSN07
01-02-2007, 01:56 PM
AZ FO must be a bunch of rejects if they send that much to NY for a feeble RJ.

Jacko, if this deal does go threw it doesn't mean cashman is a great GM, it means AZ GM is a retard and cashman knows how to take advantage of retards. Anyone that would send all that for RJ has to be considered mentally incapable and someone should step in and keep cashman from taking advantage of the poor bastards in AZ!LOL

BSN07
01-02-2007, 01:57 PM
Here Jacko, these ought to make things a little easier....

http://www.avca.org/camp/kneepads.jpg





HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :thumbsup:

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 02:30 PM
AZ FO must be a bunch of rejects if they send that much to NY for a feeble RJ.

Jacko, if this deal does go threw it doesn't mean cashman is a great GM, it means AZ GM is a retard and cashman knows how to take advantage of retards. Anyone that would send all that for RJ has to be considered mentally incapable and someone should step in and keep cashman from taking advantage of the poor bastards in AZ!LOL

if you take advantage of another GMs ineptitude, is that a bad thing? Good GM's take advantage of bad GM's.

schillingouttheks
01-02-2007, 02:36 PM
Funny...seeing as loads of Yankees fans were on Theo's case because he took advantage of the AZ FO in the Schilling trade.

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 02:38 PM
Funny...seeing as loads of Yankees fans were on Theo's case because he took advantage of the AZ FO in the Schilling trade.

No, loads of yankee fans were jealous that the sox took advantage of the arizona GM. BTW, nice kneepads. I had the fluorescent green ones when I play rec league basketball a LONG time ago.

schillingouttheks
01-02-2007, 03:01 PM
Ok, then they turned that jealousy into anger pretty quickly. To them, Theo was "cheap" because he took advantage of the D-Backs.

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 03:40 PM
Ok, then they turned that jealousy into anger pretty quickly. To them, Theo was "cheap" because he took advantage of the D-Backs.

whoever said that was an idiot.

schillingouttheks
01-02-2007, 03:55 PM
This we agree on.

He Hate Me
01-02-2007, 05:21 PM
Ok, then they turned that jealousy into anger pretty quickly. To them, Theo was "cheap" because he took advantage of the D-Backs.

I wasn't mad at Theo about that at all. I thought it had everything to do with revenge for the David Wells signing (a George Steinbrenner special BTW Cashmas was out of the loop on that one). Essentially, in my mind anyway, we gave up a shot at Schilling for David Wells thanks to the Tampa idiots. Ahh splintered FO morons who have the ear fo the owner instead of the good baseball people...

Gom
01-02-2007, 05:55 PM
LOL!

a700hitter
01-02-2007, 11:44 PM
a new rumor has arisen. I dont have a link for this one, but it seems to be all over yankee boards. The new rumor is that the Yankees and DBacks have agreed to a deal involving reliever Brandon Medders, Micah Owings, and first baseman Chris Carter. Carter just turned 24. He is a 6 foot 225lb first baseman who hit

.301 19HR 97RBI 10SB in AAA in 2006.

In 351 minor league games, he has

1331AB 409H .307AVG 78doubles 67HR 282RBI with a .396OBP .526SLG and a .922OPS.

This kid can MASH. No idea how he is defensively. He is left handed which is good t in yankee stadium but bad in our lineup. But this deal would net us a rookie 1b with lots of pop, a potential middle of the order starter with lots of polish and a young power reliever with 1.5 seasons of semi-success in the majors. Not bad haul if this works. GO CASHMAN!!I can hardly wait for the Yankees to give up 16-17 wins and a guy who the Sox can't seem to beat even when they hit him for a minor league first baseman who can mash and two other prospects. That kid Carter will be mashing potatoes in a soup kitchen before he's mashing balls as the Yankee first baseman.

a700hitter
01-02-2007, 11:46 PM
http://www.lohud.com/blogs/2007/01/status-of-johnson-trade.html

the diamondbacks have officially requested a 72 hour negotiating window with Randy. This means that the yankees and dbacks have successfully agreed to a deal and now it is up to the DBacks to make a deal.Could the 72 hours be to let AZo over his extensive medical records and to give him a physical?

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 11:54 PM
I can hardly wait for the Yankees to give up 16-17 wins and a guy who the Sox can't seem to beat even when they hit him for a minor league first baseman who can mash and two other prospects. That kid Carter will be mashing potatoes in a soup kitchen before he's mashing balls as the Yankee first baseman.

Dont be jealous 700. It isnt our fault that we are about to fleece the shit out of a newb GM. I could win 17 games if I got 7.5 runs a game and I havent pitched in a game in a long time.

It breaks down to dealing a 43 yr old pitcher on the decline stuff and numbers wise. A guy coming off back surgery which may make him miss significant time at the beginning of next yr. A guy who left nothing on the table for the playoffs and essentially turned the tide of both playoff series by his suckitude. And we might get the DBacks best pitching prospect, their best power prospect, and their best young reliever. That is fleecing.

As for Carter mashing in a soup kitchen, well, if he comes over, he will be the first baseman breaking camp. Power, average, plate discipline. He'll get his shot in a loaded yankee lineup. Expectations will be low, but lefty power in Yankee stadium can only be good.

Plus having Owings around can make a future deal for a big time pitcher better.

jacksonianmarch
01-02-2007, 11:55 PM
Could the 72 hours be to let AZo over his extensive medical records and to give him a physical?

The Times is saying the yankees have not allowed the 72 hour window yet. They may not allow a window, they may say take it or leave it. Who knows.

For the record. This is way too fucking drawn out. Finish the damn deal, send his ass packing and get us some good prospects + cash relief to get Roger.

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 12:01 AM
Dont be jealous 700. It isnt our fault that we are about to fleece the shit out of a newb GM. I could win 17 games if I got 7.5 runs a game and I havent pitched in a game in a long time.I am so jealous that I'll probably have to hide my belt and shoelaces if they also trade the 39 year-old Moose for more prospects.
As for Carter mashing in a soup kitchen, well, if he comes over, he will be the first baseman breaking camp. Power, average, plate discipline. He'll get his shot in a loaded yankee lineup. Expectations will be low, but lefty power in Yankee stadium can only be good.You already have a lefty-hitting first baseman that can mash but not field. Maybe they'll move him for prospects too. Maybe Cashman will take a page from the playbook of the Marlin's GM.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 12:18 AM
I am so jealous that I'll probably have to hide my belt and shoelaces if they also trade the 39 year-old Moose for more prospects.You already have a lefty-hitting first baseman that can mash but not field. Maybe they'll move him for prospects too. Maybe Cashman will take a page from the playbook of the Marlin's GM.

700. Cmon now man. Giambi is not necessarily being moved to DH because he cannot field. That is part of the reason. The other part is that the guy flops around like a fish too often and hurts himself. His torn wrist tendon that was fixed a few months back was a big reason why he tanked late (that or his supply of Andro was halted). In order to keep his impact bat around longer, he will be out of the field for the majority of the time. I have been a major advocate of having a defense first 1b, but if the option arises to get a 24 yr old left handed MLB ready, power hitting 1b then you have to do it. A .922 OPS and 67 bombs in 1300 minor league ABs is not something that comes everyday.

Also, notice something here. RJ was a disappointment last season. He is declining. He is injured. He was disposable. Mussina on the other hand was strong last yr. He had a career rennaissance once he embraced his loss of velocity, which is something that Randy has been too bull headed to do. If we decided to deal Mussina now as well (which we cant btw since he was signed to a FA deal) then I'd be pissed. But thus far, dealing Wright and Sheffield were good moves for the overall health of the organization without leaving any major, season threatening holes unfilled. Dealing RJ for a shit prospect and a used condom would piss me off too. But getting 2 top prospects and a young, power armed major league middle reliever is too good to be true for a guy with the 33rd best era in the AL last yr (which is something when only 39 pitchers qualified).

Also, RJ's only desirable quality last season was his ability to take the bump and break 200 innings. Pettitte took his #3 slot in the rotation, and he has broken 200IP 2 yrs running and 3 out of 4. His #4 slot will be filled by the Japanese kid whose most desirable and potentially his most transferrable quality (since nobody has a clue what his production will be) is his durability. So you essentially have a younger, mini 2006 version RJ right there. Then the 5 slot will be held down (okay, laugh now) by Pavano (pussy!). Okay okay, it will be kept warm by a bunch of young pitchers who coincidentally have a penchant for eating innings (Rasner to a lesser degree and Karstens to a greater degree) until Roger makes his return to NY.

And another thing this does 700, and this should worry you the most. It allows the yankees to create a corps of young pitchers in the minors surrounding Hughes. Which means that the yankees may actually be able to keep Phil Hughes, insert him into the rotation between 07 and 08 and have enough minor league pitching to make a push for a young, proven starter at the deadline or in the next off season. Quality, high level minor league arms are worth their weight in gold when trade time comes.

I have said before, I think this yankee team is being molded from steinbrenner era buy everything and then buy some more to a team that will be very good right now and has the flexibility to be another dynasty. Both with the cash in the FO's pocket and with the prospects in the yankee cupboard to groom or to deal.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 12:28 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/yankees/2007-01-02-johnson-trade_x.htm

the dbacks broke their silence, annonymously. USA Today is reporting that the DBacks and Yankees will consummate their deal later this week. The agreement is 2 prospects and a middle reliever.

Vagaries are annoying. Well, at least we know it isnt 3 prospects, lol. Nothing new to report, except this is coming from a dback org member. Sounds like they are pretty optimistic about this.

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 12:34 AM
700. Cmon now man. Giambi is not necessarily being moved to DH because he cannot field. That is part of the reason. The other part is that the guy flops around like a fish too often and hurts himself. His torn wrist tendon that was fixed a few months back was a big reason why he tanked late (that or his supply of Andro was halted). In order to keep his impact bat around longer, he will be out of the field for the majority of the time. I have been a major advocate of having a defense first 1b, but if the option arises to get a 24 yr old left handed MLB ready, power hitting 1b then you have to do it. A .922 OPS and 67 bombs in 1300 minor league ABs is not something that comes everyday.I love the move


Also, notice something here. RJ was a disappointment last season. He is declining. He is injured. He was disposable.Clemens is older and has taken to pitching only half seasons. From 36-40, Clemens only averaged 15 wins inthe AL. I don't see him being more effective 4 years later, but he would fit the 5th slot nicely for the Red Sox. Unit won 33 games over the last two years and his bloated ERA last year was largely attributable to his disc problem.

And another thing this does 700, and this should worry you the most. It allows the yankees to create a corps of young pitchers in the minors surrounding Hughes. Which means that the yankees may actually be able to keep Phil Hughes, insert him into the rotation between 07 and 08 and have enough minor league pitching to make a push for a young, proven starter at the deadline or in the next off season. Quality, high level minor league arms are worth their weight in gold when trade time comes. I'll worry about Hughes when the Yanks bring him up. Maybe he will be special, but I'm not overly concerned with the Yankees gathering up trading chips for proven talent. I like the strategy. If the Red Sox were making these moves I'd be fuming. I'm glad you like this new direction. We can both agree on that.

I have said before, I think this yankee team is being molded from steinbrenner era buy everything and then buy some more to a team that will be very good right now and has the flexibility to be another dynasty. Both with the cash in the FO's pocket and with the prospects in the yankee cupboard to groom or to deal.Don't count on another Dynasty so soon. As soon as Mo goes into decline, the playoffs will no longer be an every year occurrence.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 12:34 AM
well, good talk. Just. Keep on. Just keep on truckin.
http://www.cinema.com/image_lib/5667_011_thumb.jpg

Goodnight 700.

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 12:37 AM
well, good talk. Just. Keep on. Just keep on truckin.
http://www.cinema.com/image_lib/5667_011_thumb.jpg

Goodnight 700.I'll say a liittle prayer tonight that Unit is a D-Back by ST.:D

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 07:49 AM
I love the move

Clemens is older and has taken to pitching only half seasons. From 36-40, Clemens only averaged 15 wins inthe AL. I don't see him being more effective 4 years later, but he would fit the 5th slot nicely for the Red Sox. Unit won 33 games over the last two years and his bloated ERA last year was largely attributable to his disc problem. I'll worry about Hughes when the Yanks bring him up. Maybe he will be special, but I'm not overly concerned with the Yankees gathering up trading chips for proven talent. I like the strategy. If the Red Sox were making these moves I'd be fuming. I'm glad you like this new direction. We can both agree on that. Don't count on another Dynasty so soon. As soon as Mo goes into decline, the playoffs will no longer be an every year occurrence.

Clemens in 05 wore down in the playoffs and had to come out of his last world series game. Clemens in 03 was a shell of his former self come playoff time and it took a miraculous 8h inning comeback for him not to be a goat. Then he proceeded to blow away the marlins in the playoffs. In 04 he didnt have much left in the tank and was beaten by Suppan in the deciding game.

In 2003, his ERA was 0.6 runs per 9 higher after the AS break

In 2004, Roger's era was 0.8 runs per 9 higher after the AS break.

In 2005, Roger's era was a full run higher after the AS break

In 2006, his ERA was 0.7 runs per 9 LOWER after the AS break and he put up a .179 BAA in september.

So if he wants to play a partial season, then fine. I had wanted to groom Rasner or Karstens as trade bait anyway or for the future in our organization if they have one. An open competition for the 5 hole in ST between Pavano, Rasner, and Karstens followed by the acquisition of the rocket would make our 5 hole pretty damn good and allow us to at least see what we have in Pavano and the kids.

It also allows us the ability to get out from Pavano as well if needed. If Pavano proves he is healthy in ST and has a good start to the season, then we might be able to move him before the time bomb on some body part goes off.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 08:09 AM
USA today is reporting that the package will be 2 minor league pitchers and a reliever, probably Brandon Medders. Therefore, the need for Monkeybitch as the 1b is apparent. Sounds like the DBacks didnt want to give up Carter.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 09:13 AM
if randy needs a ride to laguardia let me know
i can be in the bronx in 2.5 hours and i will pay for his flight

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 09:20 AM
if randy needs a ride to laguardia let me know
i can be in the bronx in 2.5 hours and i will pay for his flightI'll carry his bags.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 09:24 AM
fukin ayyy man
if this flies and jd drew's yeast infection is treated properly and kato shows up and pitches like all the geniouses say he will??

the sox had a great offseason

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 09:37 AM
fukin ayyy man
if this flies and jd drew's yeast infection is treated properly and kato shows up and pitches like all the geniouses say he will??

the sox had a great offseason...and the Yankees will have traded a future Hall of Famer, a borderline future Hall of Famer, and an 11 game winning starter for prospects. I gotta like that for 2007.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 09:52 AM
and they havent gotten anything back
nor have they landed their usual best pitcher and best player on the market this year??

wtf is going on here

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 10:05 AM
and they havent gotten anything back
nor have they landed their usual best pitcher and best player on the market this year??

wtf is going on hereI don't know, but I am liking it.

Edit: If they have decided to look to the future, I am fine with that. By the time the future gets here, Jeter and Mo will be over the hill.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-03-2007, 10:06 AM
and they havent gotten anything back
nor have they landed their usual best pitcher and best player on the market this year??

wtf is going on here

That's how you can tell Cash is running the show now. So far I like it, but I am a little worried about this year, depending on how the Clemens situation pans out..

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 10:08 AM
That's how you can tell Cash is running the show now. So far I like it, but I am a little worried about this year, depending on how the Clemens situation pans out..It would be a real kick in the ass if you trade Unit and Clemens goes to Houston or worse, Boston.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 10:41 AM
I wouldnt be worried about this team because of the RJ deal. This team is making the playoffs. They will get at least durability from their top 4 and with the pen and the offense, they'll easily make the playoffs. The question is, how will they do in the playoffs. That is my concern. That is not a question that can be answered right now. That all depends on how Pettitte does, if Clemens comes back etc. I am relatively assured that our top 2 can battle with any other team's top 2. After that, in a playoff series, we'll see.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 10:43 AM
they did need to rebuild
no doubt
but at the risk of being overly optimistic i feel trading their best hitter and their biggest sox killer in rj really is a sign that cashman is running the program
and all this post season losing has fried steinbrenner into the fetal position and hes now a shell of himself

despite my utter distaste and pure unadulterated hatred for steinbrenner,his teams,his mouth and the corrupt way he ran his team
i kind of wish he died tragically in a plane crash rather than waste away piece by piece into oblivion like hes doing now

when i saw 15,000 sox fans singing sweet caroline after game 7 in 2004 and steinbrenner left the lites on for them to party
it was the end for him
sort of like the straw that broke the camels back

anyone notice they played sinatra's version of ny ny that evening rather than liza minellis which usually follows a loss??

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 10:55 AM
I thought it was a very classy move by a typically classless guy, especially towards the sox. I truly feel that he was so enraged that he sent out an internal memo to get RJ. Once he got him, and we failed miserably again, I think he finally saw what his meddling hands had done. I still feel that he was never satisfied with the success, if we won 114 games, he wanted 116. If we won 11 of 12 playoff games, he wanted a sweep of all series. His insatiable appetite was fueled by the new bandwagon Yankee fans who wanted to see the long ball rather than a fundamentally sound team 1-9 on the field, in the lockerroom and at the plate. That is Steinbrenners biggest flaw. He sold the soul of his team to have the big name (offensively for the most part). With his soul went the chemistry. The clutch factor. The unbeatable facade that the yankees maintained for a span of 6 years. Only a supreme effort was enough to fell the mighty yankees in 97 and 01. Now, the lowly angels and tigers easily tamed the yankees of the past 2 years. Hence, I think Cashman has been given 100% full control. With steinny's wallet and Cashman's brain, this team can easily become a long term force for years to come, rather than cycle into an unsustainable crash course of big spending on players well past their prime.

Now while I say that above, I advocate Clemens signing. Mostly because he still has something left and we will only get him for one season. Long enough for these kids in the minors to get their legs under em and come up or be integral in a trade for a young starter.

Now if Big Stein was in office. Zito would be a Yankee for the next 8 yrs. Robby Cano and Chien Ming would be in Florida and Beckett would be a yankee (thank god that didnt happen). Sheff and RJ would still be aging, injured malcontents and our farm system would be shot to shit as Hughes likely would have been traded for a shmoke and a pancake.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 11:15 AM
evidently youve been watching for a while jack

it all goes back to reggie doesnt it??

everyone forgets the chris chamblis's and the roy whites and the willie randolphs and the bobby murcers and the alvaro espinozas and ya.....thurmon too

everyone forgets that kenny holtzman and jim hunter and rawley eastwick and don gullet and andy messersmith were failures in the grand scheme of things as well

it was the dick tidrows and the ed figueroa's and the sparky lyles that got them the 2 titles in the late 70s along with a great game 6 by reggie in 77

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 11:39 AM
With steinny's wallet and Cashman's brain, this team can easily become a long term force for years to come, rather than cycle into an unsustainable crash course of big spending on players well past their prime.Yada yada yada. As Mo goes so goes the Yankees post season chances. C'mon Father time. Do your stuff.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 11:41 AM
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070103/SPORTS01/701030371/1108/SPORTS01

sounds like the two pitching prospects are going to be Owings and Ohlendorf.

Owings, drafted in 2005 is a 6'5" pitcher with a bulldog mentality. He throws 4 solid pitches, none of them top shelf, but has plus command and control. His fastball is said to sit near 92-93. He was 10-0 last season in AAA and was 16-2 overall between AA and AAA. The big knock on Owings is that he "puts his all into every pitch" so he might be a future reliever.

Ohlendorf is a guy who they seem to like over Dustin Nippert. He is a low 90s sinkerballer with pinpoint control and a strong frame. He is a guy who looks to be a mid rotation pitcher who will eat innings. He is a poor man's Chien Ming Wang as his sinker is about 3-5mph slower.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 11:45 AM
Yada yada yada. As Mo goes so goes the Yankees post season chances. C'mon Father time. Do your stuff.

2004 was a year that I would have rather had a bullpen full of young arms than one pitcher who couldnt shoulder the load all by himself. Mo will retire some day. Someone will close for us in the future. There will be a difference, no doubt. But if Cash builds a good bullpen soup to nuts, then the loss should not be as shaking as you think. Since Mo has been the closer and since LuGo's dinker fell through in 01, we have neglected bullpen. Mo at the end, shit in the middle. We can afford to do that with Mariano cause he'll clean up the shit. When Mo goes, he cannot be replaced by one man, but he certainly is not a guy whose retirement will send us to impending doom. Hence, Cashman is building for that day. He has some real solid young arms that are under control for awhile. If we get Medders, that will help too. By the time Mo retires, these kids may be stable enough to hold the middle of the pen while we undoubtedly go out and get a closer, or develop one from within.

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 11:53 AM
When Mo goes, he cannot be replaced by one man, but he certainly is not a guy whose retirement will send us to impending doom.You have been spoiled. Mo is a one of a kind. You'll never see his likes again. When he leaves or slips, the negative impact on the organization will be tremendous, no matter how great of a job Cashman does.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 12:01 PM
It will be tremendous. The only way to make it less tremendous would be to build an entire bullpen rather than Mo and these other shitbums. A loaded pen will make Mo's departure less painful. A shit pen and this team will collapse.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 12:09 PM
btw, interesting thought in the bergen record today.


According to one National League scout, Owings is better than any of the three pitchers the Yankees received from the Tigers for Sheffield -- including right-hander Humberto Sanchez, who was the key to the deal.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 12:58 PM
they did need to rebuild
no doubt
but at the risk of being overly optimistic i feel trading their best hitter and their biggest sox killer in rj really is a sign that cashman is running the program
and all this post season losing has fried steinbrenner into the fetal position and hes now a shell of himself



I got caught up on the last part of this post, and I never responded to the intent of it. I find the need to rebuild overblown. They dont need to rebuild from a team that won 97 games. What they need to do is to get back to what worked. Look at the rotations from 96-01 and you see a smattering of youth and age.

In 96, Pettitte, Cone and Key were their big 3. That is the one year that they got 171 innings worth of pure domination from Mo and Wetteland. And they got 100+ innings of slop work from Mendoza

In 97, it was Pettitte, Wells, and Cone while they had quite possibly the best bullpen they ever had. Mo was sub 2, Stanton, Boehringer, and Nelson were sub 3 and Lloyd was at 3.3 while Mendoza ate 130 innings of swing/spot slop.

In 98, it was Pettitte, Wells, Duque, Cone and Irabu that were flat out dominant (yes Irabu was good for one yr). Rivera, Holmes and Nelson were fantastic in the pen and Mendoza at 130 innings of slop work again.

In 99, duque and cone were the best pitchers, but Clemens and Pettitte ate innings. Rivera, Grimsley, and Stanton were great in the pen and Mendoza at 130 innings of slop work yet again.

In 00, Clemens, Pettitte, and El Duque were reliable while Coney spit the bit. Mendoza only was at 65 innings. Rivera had his worst career yr and Nelson was strong.

In 01, Clemens, Pettitte, and Mussina were fantastic. Mendoza cracked 100 innings again, Rivera was great and Stanton was very good.

In 02, they had 6 solid starters until George dealt for Weaver. Mussina, Wells, Pettitte, El Duque, and Clemens were fantastic. Rivera missed a lot of time, but Stanton, Karsay and Mendoza ate 250 innings of bullpen combined and were fantastic.

In 03, the yankees got 842 innings from Clemens, Pettitte, Mussina and Wells. Mariano was fantastic but nobody was there to eat a huge load of innings like Mendoza had been for so long. They relied on guys like Hammond and Osuna who had good numbers, but were horrible in close situations. Karsay was down for the count. This was the beginning of the end. The pen was horribly misshapen, but the slack was picked up by the rotation.

In 04, no starter broke 200 innings and no starter (aside from the 15 starts el duque made) was below a 4ERA. Mariano and Gordon were fantastic and Quantrill ate innings, but the pen couldnt bear the weight of the lack of a reliable, durable, effective starter and fell in the choke of the century. Honestly, I have no idea how this team was 3 outs away from the WS. With this pitching, this team shouldnt have made the playoffs.

In 05, RJ was the only constant and the only guy above 200IP. Mussina pitched in with 172 innings of reliable but unimpressive work. Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon became household names for a bit. Pavano, Mussina, Brown, Wright and Wang spent significant time on the DL. The bullpen was 2 men deep.

In 06, RJ and Wang broke 200IP. Mussina was right there with 197. RJ declined, Mussina surged and Wang became the young ace. Proctor assumed the position that nobody was able to fill since Mendoza signed, but he was doing double duty in a setup role. The pen was better and has promise. The rotation needed an overhaul as the 4 and 5 slots sucked and the 3 was 200IP of crap performance.

To get back to the old days, we just need durability out of the rotation and a good bullpen. Every yankee team from 96 to 02 had a rotation with three durable starters for the most part. Not all 3 were fantastic, they slipped to and fro over time, but were not overly dominant. No starter had a sub 3 era since 97, but they took the hill. The bullpen had a slop guy who ate a ton of innings (Mendoza). The bullpen also had at least Mo and a solid setup man. And the offense was good enough to win.

Then we turned the page to all offense, only Mo in the pen and a HORRIBLE rotation in 04. Last season's pen and rotation were much improved, but we need more out of our 4 and 5.

My long winded, overly drawn out point is that the yankees have recognized their issue. They had nobody to come up to pitch from the minors. They relied on retreads who were not good and paid through the nose for them. So he is now developing his pitching or trading for it, before it gets expensive. Which means, other teams find these guys attractive too. By harnessing a crop of pitching in the minors, he leaves the toughest part of being a baseball GM up to his development staff instead of hoping and praying for a guy coming off a career yr to translate it to NY after signing a contract that sets them up for life and then some.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 02:56 PM
People around baseball don't see much chance that the Yankees will bring back Randy Johnson after going to all this trouble to be rid of him. As reported in this space Saturday, excising Johnson will enhance their chances to land Roger Clemens, who they'd like to get on the field much earlier than when he started in 2006 (June 22), maybe even in April or early May. But if Clemens does come, don't expect him to agree to spend his whole spring in Tampa with the team.

• The Yankees have turned down Arizona's request to have a window to work out an extension, but that shouldn't prevent the D'backs from doing a deal with Johnson. A one-year extension for $10-12 million shouldn't be that complicated.

• If the Yankees get the package they want -- say Ross Ohlendorf, Micah Owings and Luis Vizcaino -- they may be willing to pay a few million toward Johnson's $16 million 2006 salary. But if they get only two of the players on their A-list, they'd want Arizona to pay the full salary.



no negotiating window for the dbacks. Take it or leave it is what Cash is conveying.

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 03:40 PM
...excising Johnson will enhance their chances to land Roger ClemensI don't know the source of this quote but it is inherently illogical. Why would this enhance the chances of the Yankees getting Clemens? If the Yankees wanted to go after him, were they any less likely to get him because Johnson was on the team? Presumably, the Yankees have more than enough money to pay Johnson and Clemens. If they wanted Clemens, the only thing impeding their chances of getting him is whether Houston wants him and the Rocket chooses to stay home, or he chooses to exploit the ,marketing opportunities in NE. These impediments remain whether or not Unit stays. I might agree that the Yankees will be more likely to pursue Clemens if Unit is traded, but if they want Clemens, trading Unit doesn't "enhance" their chances of getting Clemens.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 03:42 PM
well i dont think phoenix will dump their future for rj
i do think the yanks and arizona are sincere on making a deal
why would arizona bail when they know how deep ny's pockets are??

is randy johnson a matinee idol type?
ive seen better faces on hemmroids
plus hes a fucking prick and hes ancient

as i said
i will drive rj and pay for his flight to phoenix
.700 will carry his bags and i suspect david ortiz would blow him thru the tunnel into queens but this isnt going to be as ez as pie i fear
i do want him in arizona

Cityofchampions33
01-03-2007, 03:44 PM
The Yanks must be pretty sure they're landing Clemens if they make this deal, and that's what worries me. However, they could be leaning too much on Pavano and one of their prospects to perform well this season. So from our standpoint it's 50/50 this is good for us.

Mr Crunchy
01-03-2007, 03:56 PM
i really question the yanks front office on several accounts
not so much trading admiral halsey and vasquez?? for rj
the arod move so he didnt land in boston was also special
the jeff weaver move was also repugnant then the contreras bonehead deal

i dunno
this is certainly not an exact science but they seemed to have reacting to bostons efforts as opposed to developing a system of their own

as jack and other yank fans have pointed out
steinbrenner may have finally played his last hand and this means 2 things to me
(1) this year we may get them because we spent and they didnt
(2) they will be solid for a generation if the felon isnt involved in day to day activities and this worries me

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-03-2007, 04:00 PM
I don't know the source of this quote but it is inherently illogical. Why would this enhance the chances of the Yankees getting Clemens? If the Yankees wanted to go after him, were they any less likely to get him because Johnson was on the team? Presumably, the Yankees have more than enough money to pay Johnson and Clemens. If they wanted Clemens, the only thing impeding their chances of getting him is whether Houston wants him and the Rocket chooses to stay home, or he chooses to exploit the ,marketing opportunities in NE. These impediments remain whether or not Unit stays. I might agree that the Yankees will be more likely to pursue Clemens if Unit is traded, but if they want Clemens, trading Unit doesn't "enhance" their chances of getting Clemens.

I agree about the money part. The Yanks could pay them both if they wanted to. However, if the reports are true that Clemens actually does not like RJ, then moving him definitely helps. It also creates an immediate opening for Clemens, although certainly the Yanks would bump Pavano or whoever else would end up in the 4 or 5 spot to make room for him..

Cityofchampions33
01-03-2007, 04:14 PM
It also creates an immediate opening for Clemens

Who are going to put in the 5 hole until Clemens is ready?

He Hate Me
01-03-2007, 05:32 PM
i really question the yanks front office on several accounts
not so much trading admiral halsey and vasquez?? for rj
the arod move so he didnt land in boston was also special
the jeff weaver move was also repugnant then the contreras bonehead deal

i dunno
this is certainly not an exact science but they seemed to have reacting to bostons efforts as opposed to developing a system of their own

the FO of recent years before Cashman's resigning was controlled in large part by the Tampa Bay faction who had no clue what they were doing and effectively removed the arrchitect of the 90's dynasty (Stick) from the Boss' inner circle. They were largely comprised of old blowhards who had a serious hard-on for the Mets and Red Sox. The bloated contracts and $200M payroll is proof of that as well as the acquisitons of RJ, Giambi, Brown, etc.

the FO, pre-Cashman reupping, lucked into a system and situation carefully built up from the ground by Stick and other good baseball people. Anything bad you have to say about them before 2005 I would completely agree with. You can change "seemed to have reacting to bostons efforts as opposed to developing a system of their own" to "They only knew how to OVERreact to bostons efforts as opposed to developing a system of their own"

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 05:58 PM
I don't know the source of this quote but it is inherently illogical. Why would this enhance the chances of the Yankees getting Clemens? If the Yankees wanted to go after him, were they any less likely to get him because Johnson was on the team? Presumably, the Yankees have more than enough money to pay Johnson and Clemens. If they wanted Clemens, the only thing impeding their chances of getting him is whether Houston wants him and the Rocket chooses to stay home, or he chooses to exploit the ,marketing opportunities in NE. These impediments remain whether or not Unit stays. I might agree that the Yankees will be more likely to pursue Clemens if Unit is traded, but if they want Clemens, trading Unit doesn't "enhance" their chances of getting Clemens.

rumor has it that Clemens HATES Johnson. Also, the yankees are about to make some concessions to the rocket (like skipping road trips, staying home etc) that RJ would have wanted, and the yankees were in no position to give him those as well.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 05:59 PM
Who are going to put in the 5 hole until Clemens is ready?

Pavano, Karstens, and Rasner to start. Then maybe Hughes, Sanchez, Clippard, Ohlendorf, Owings, White if those 3 cannot do it. We have lots of MLB ready talent in our minors, a MLB vet in Pavano and two guys who got their feet wet last yr in Rasner and Karstens.

arbitrary
01-03-2007, 06:32 PM
How long has Cashman been with the yankees?

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 08:03 PM
a long time. But he hasnt been in control for too long. Only a little over a yr. The Tampa faction was the defacto GM and Cashman had no power. That has since changed.

Cityofchampions33
01-03-2007, 08:05 PM
Pavano, Karstens, and Rasner to start. Then maybe Hughes, Sanchez, Clippard, Ohlendorf, Owings, White if those 3 cannot do it. We have lots of MLB ready talent in our minors, a MLB vet in Pavano and two guys who got their feet wet last yr in Rasner and Karstens.

well without johnson you have moose, wang, pavano, and igawa no? are you not worried that you'll have to go through the first half of the season without a reliable 5th man? i mean if your raggin on us not having a closer, then im suprised its not collasal to maybe lose every 5th game (pending offensive production).

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 08:22 PM
you forgot pettitte.

schillingouttheks
01-03-2007, 08:28 PM
you forgot pettitte.

Even with Pettite, that rotation has 2 unreliable (as it looks right now, and could end up) starting pitchers in Igawa and Pavano. Until Pavano grows a cock and balls, he's unreliable. And until Igawa proves himself, he's not necessarily unreliable, but rather unproven. He could also end up being unreliable. Matsuzaka's a different story because he has 20x the talent that Igawa does. What do you do if Pavano bombs and Igawa is inconsistent and a mediocre starter AT BEST? Those two scenarios are quite likely.

arbitrary
01-03-2007, 08:30 PM
a long time. But he hasnt been in control for too long. Only a little over a yr. The Tampa faction was the defacto GM and Cashman had no power. That has since changed.

So he was still GM but had no power and didn't do jack? How the crap does that happen and then change to where he has power?

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 08:30 PM
Interesting rumor making the rounds on yankee fan boards.

The rumor is that the yankees are holding out for Medders because they want to package him with Melky and close the deal on Mike Gonzalez. Now that would be nice.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 08:36 PM
Even with Pettite, that rotation has 2 unreliable (as it looks right now, and could end up) starting pitchers in Igawa and Pavano. Until Pavano grows a cock and balls, he's unreliable. And until Igawa proves himself, he's not necessarily unreliable, but rather unproven. He could also end up being unreliable. Matsuzaka's a different story because he has 20x the talent that Igawa does. What do you do if Pavano bombs and Igawa is inconsistent and a mediocre starter AT BEST? Those two scenarios are quite likely.

schill, the yankees had 2 holes in the rotation last yr and won 97 games. We had 2 good starters, a durable shitty starter, and 2 black holes. Right now, we should have 3 reliable starters, one durable starter and an open door at #5 for multiple candidates. Pavano had the rep of being a guy who ate innings before he ate dick. If he stays healthy, then this rotation will give the yankees exactly what they got during the championship yrs. Durable starting pitching, nothing spectacular individually but the sum of the parts will be great. If he doesnt, then we will get younger in the rotation, which is something we have needed to do for awhile. The funny thing is, if RJ is moved, then we will be without a 40+ yr old starter for the first time in a long time.

ORS
01-03-2007, 08:37 PM
It appears NY not only has a teflon SS, but it also has a teflon GM. Every bad move gets pinned on Tampa, every successful one goes on the ledger for $$man. I think we, as Sox fans, should do the same thing. Lucchino can be the fall guy. Thoughts?

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 08:38 PM
So he was still GM but had no power and didn't do jack? How the crap does that happen and then change to where he has power?

his contract was up. He laid out what it would take to keep him. He has protection in his contract if he doesnt have the power he was promised. He laid it out. Give me power or watch me leave. George wanted to keep him.

VA Sox Fan
01-03-2007, 08:47 PM
It appears NY not only has a teflon SS, but it also has a teflon GM. Every bad move gets pinned on Tampa, every successful one goes on the ledger for $$man. I think we, as Sox fans, should do the same thing. Lucchino can be the fall guy. Thoughts?

I'm game. We are already being compared to the Yanks with the Matsuzaka deal. ;)

arbitrary
01-03-2007, 08:50 PM
his contract was up. He laid out what it would take to keep him. He has protection in his contract if he doesnt have the power he was promised. He laid it out. Give me power or watch me leave. George wanted to keep him.

So how long was he powerless and then how long did he go unsigned for?

Cityofchampions33
01-03-2007, 08:52 PM
We are already being compared to the Yanks with the Matsuzaka deal. ;)

Yeah, that comparison really pisses me off

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 09:06 PM
So how long was he powerless and then how long did he go unsigned for?

I think he has been Yankee GM for 9 yrs. He didnt have a good rep until the early 2000s. His contract was up last October. He held out for a month and then signed on.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 09:07 PM
they dont have a teflon GM anymore. Everything from last offseason on will be pinned on Cashman. His performance thus far was nice for now and the future.

VA Sox Fan
01-03-2007, 09:17 PM
Yeah, that comparison really pisses me off

You and me both! :angry:

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 09:44 PM
nyynews is saying something interesting.


The Padres are making a late push for Randy Johnson. I did report that the players in the trade have been agreed to, but that does not mean the Padres cannot still land Johnson. I actually think the Yankees rejected the 72 hour window because the Padres may be offering a top prospect, a lower level prospect and Scott Linebrink. Trust me; the Yankees are going to get serious talent for Johnson.

schillingouttheks
01-03-2007, 09:46 PM
Is that guy even reliable?

TheKilo
01-03-2007, 09:47 PM
nyy news?

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 09:53 PM
not at all. But rumors are rumors. I just want this thing to end so we can do our spinoff deals for Gonzalez.

jacksonianmarch
01-03-2007, 10:34 PM
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/01/03/sports/professional/padres/22_25_571_2_07.txt

here is a link that may be more reliable.

a700hitter
01-03-2007, 10:50 PM
I wish this would get done. Get the prospects. Get Unit out of town, and good luck getting Roger.

He Hate Me
01-04-2007, 01:03 AM
It appears NY not only has a teflon SS, but it also has a teflon GM. Every bad move gets pinned on Tampa, every successful one goes on the ledger for $$man. I think we, as Sox fans, should do the same thing. Lucchino can be the fall guy. Thoughts?

It is what it is. The whole Tampa vs. New York battle has been discussed to death on various Yankee boards and the NY papers. It's something that most Yankee fans are aware of.

Manny Goes Boom
01-04-2007, 01:07 AM
If RJ does come back to Arizona, I think it'll be interesting what the reaction of the fans will be here, especially because he left for the money. I might even go to his first game. Granted they are all so dead anyway, they don't even cheer when an opposing pitcher blows his no hitter. So who knows what will happen.

Fried Neckbones
01-04-2007, 02:49 AM
It appears NY not only has a teflon SS, but it also has a teflon GM. Every bad move gets pinned on Tampa, every successful one goes on the ledger for $$man. I think we, as Sox fans, should do the same thing. Lucchino can be the fall guy. Thoughts?

Have you read "Feeding the Monster" yet? Mnookin pretty much writes that exact scenario, down to the Lucchino as fall guy angle.

riverside sluggers
01-04-2007, 05:09 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks0104b,0,1001758.story?coll=ny-main-bigpix

Randy Johnson has agreed to an extension thru 2008 with Arizona. Also its been established that the Yankees would receive Luis Vizcaino (not Brandon Medders). The # of prospects will be sorted out when it comes clear how much New York is willing to fork over

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 08:02 AM
I just woke up and saw that. Vizcaino is a better reliever for right now, but he is 1 yr from FA and due a significant pay raise. Not terribly excited about him vs Medders.

As for the other players they receive, I sure hope they eat some cash here so they get 2 pitching prospects.

elsrbueno
01-04-2007, 08:34 AM
I just woke up and saw that. Vizcaino is a better reliever for right now, but he is 1 yr from FA and due a significant pay raise. Not terribly excited about him vs Medders.

As for the other players they receive, I sure hope they eat some cash here so they get 2 pitching prospects.

Of course you'd say that if that's the player who could potentially be wearing pinstripes.

Vizcaino's a mid 3's reliever in the NL West, which IMO makes him a mid 4's reliever in the AL East. He's 32 which means he's at the tail end of his prime, more expensive. He's got better strikeout numbers at the MLB level than Medders did (which is in his favor), but Medders is 26 (which means he's entering his peak) and has a decent minor league track record.

Personally I'd rather have Medders at this stage of their career. IMO, he's a better short term and long term option.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 08:48 AM
Not true there el sr. Vizcaino has been in 3 stops in the past 3 yrs. MIL, CWS, and ARI. In all 3 stops, he had a very similar ERA (3.75 to 3.73 to 3.58) and his 02 numbers were stellar (2.99ERA). What I am trying to say is that this guy has more to offer us TODAY. Lower walk total, lower WHIP, more experience, and experience with AL pitcher. But I am saying he is NOT who I want out of this deal. A 32 yr old power reliever with essentially a 1 yr contract. Those prospects better net something, either future rotation fillers or as trade bait, cause losing Medders from this deal makes the MLB reap pretty weak. Medders would have been under yankee control for 4 more yrs. Vizcaino would have hit FA as soon as RJ did. Again, I would expect Vizcaino to be a better reliever in 2007 as he has the experience and the stuff. But I dont like him as the only MLB player coming back.

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 09:07 AM
and i didnt have to pick up the air fare and ride into laguardia??
mitt romney leaves boston
randy johnson leaves ny
n.d humuliated again
and the gop loses control of congress

all on the same day??
christmans was 10 days ago wasnt it??
no wonder i only needed a minimul dose of painkillers this morning

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 09:20 AM
and i didnt have to pick up the air fare and ride into laguardia??
mitt romney leaves boston
randy johnson leaves ny
n.d humuliated again
and the gop loses control of congress

all on the same day??
christmans was 10 days ago wasnt it??
no wonder i only needed a minimul dose of painkillers this morning

all depends on the prospects now crunchy. If it is Vizcaino and Nippert alone I am gonna be fuckin pissed.

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 10:28 AM
with schill and wake and manny likely in their last years here in boston i feel the window for the sox is now
of course come next year we still should have some pitching,i like what schill brings to the table competetivley

the departure of randy johnson is a great start
he owned our asses be it 2-1 or 7-6,didnt matter,he owned us

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 10:40 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/485496p-408773c.html

No deal is close enough that Johnson and his agents have been asked for their approval, according to two baseball officials. Johnson has a full no-trade clause

premature ejaculation

BudLight
01-04-2007, 10:47 AM
I like the Padres deal better if what is being reported is true. To add some icing, how about the Padres throw in Bard to be the heir apparent to Posada.

AlexanderTheGreat13
01-04-2007, 10:54 AM
In his first year with the Yankees, Randy Johnson was good against the Red Sox. Last year he was brutal. He had a 7 ERA against the Sox and he got his only 2 wins against them because Matt Clement and Josh Beckett both gave up like 9 runs.

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 10:55 AM
if im cashman and i need to move on this i take the sandiego offer
linebrink is a very sought after relief pitcher,much more so than jose""lite my fire""feliciano anyways
linebrink with rivera and corkey farnsworth will make the bullpen better and deeper

VA Sox Fan
01-04-2007, 11:09 AM
I like the Padres deal better if what is being reported is true. To add some icing, how about the Padres throw in Bard to be the heir apparent to Posada.


Why not? They already have Myers, Damon, Mientkiewicz (had Embree) and have an interest in Loretta.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 11:13 AM
if im cashman and i need to move on this i take the sandiego offer
linebrink is a very sought after relief pitcher,much more so than jose""lite my fire""feliciano anyways
linebrink with rivera and corkey farnsworth will make the bullpen better and deeper

the problem with Linebrink, and why I disagree with you is that his stuff faltered a little last yr and he fell off poorly at the end (4.4 plus ERA post AS). We dont need another Goron here.

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 11:30 AM
torre abused tommy gordon,who on his best day weighs 145lbs and had no business throwing as much as he did in meaningful situations
plus
hes been around so long
i saw him beat raja 2-1 in kansas city after bo jackson hit a 485ft tater off clemens into the waterfalls in the 8th inning and mark davis closed the game
clemens was a 170/100 favorite
i was collecting 226.00 a week in unemployment
1 of several reasons i fucking hate raja clemens

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 11:31 AM
But if a guy is having trouble handling the workload in SD comes over here with what is considered declining stuff and numbers as the big piece of an RJ trade, doesnt that sound kinda bad?

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 11:46 AM
i think sd abused him as well
i think with villone and corkey and the best closer ever and myers etc that he could have the needed rest as opposed to sandiego where he was used essentially in every game they had a lead in

BudLight
01-04-2007, 11:52 AM
Linebrink will have help in the Yankees pen and won't be relied upon to pitch every day as he is in SD. His decline late last season could simply be a result of overuse. I like his stuff and the Yankees are not the only team that have inquired about his services. He is well sought after. Of all the pitchers mentioned by both AZ and SD, he is the most proven commodity.

Mr Crunchy
01-04-2007, 01:07 PM
agreed
of all the scatine mentioned in trade talks regarding pops johnson i think that linebrink brings the most to the table
now
how does this translate into yankee stadium??

bigger and better have folded like a gospel preachers tent outside a tijuana brothel at 3am so again,there are questions that havent been resolved and i certainly can speak for the sox in this regard as well

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 02:46 PM
Well, it looks like it wont be two prospects. Yahoo sports is saying that the deal will be Vizcaino and one of the trio of pitching prospects mentioned. Owings, the 2006 DBack minor league pitcher of the yr, happens to be Cashman's favorite of the bunch, so he is expected to be the one. It seems as if Cash was not content with eating more salary for another prospect.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-unit010407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

BudLight
01-04-2007, 02:53 PM
Well, it looks like it wont be two prospects. Yahoo sports is saying that the deal will be Vizcaino and one of the trio of pitching prospects mentioned. Owings, the 2006 DBack minor league pitcher of the yr, happens to be Cashman's favorite of the bunch, so he is expected to be the one. It seems as if Cash was not content with eating more salary for another prospect.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-unit010407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


If Vizcaino and 1 prospect with no money is the deal I believe Cashman should really consider the Padres offer of Linebrink and a prospect more closely.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 03:01 PM
If Vizcaino and 1 prospect with no money is the deal I believe Cashman should really consider the Padres offer of Linebrink and a prospect more closely.

I dont think the padres can beat that offer if the prospect is Owings. That kid has the makeup to be something special for us. If the prospect is Nippert then I'd say F this.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 04:56 PM
well, the yankees flipped it around again, or maybe it is just me doing circles in my head. WFAN is reporting that the yankees and dbacks have signed off on the players.

Coming to NY would be RHP Luis Vizcaino, RHP Ross Ohlendorf, RHP Steven Jackson (not THAT one), and SS Alberto Gonzalez.

Ohlendorf is described as a sinkerball pitcher with the capability to eat a lot of innings. He is predicted as a middle of the rotation pitcher. He will start the yr in AAA.

Steven Jackson is probably the one the yankees wanted over Nippert. He has a plus fastball and a plus plus slider. His power led him to a 2.65ERA in 150IP in AA last yr. The reason why he has not really been a highly known name is that he has command issues. His control is fine (low BB rates), but the command is not. He is said to rely too often on overpowering a hitter with the fastball when his offspeed stuff is off, which will make him vulnerable on the next level when he has trouble locating the slider (sounds familiar, Beckett 06 maybe?). His 3rd pitch is a changeup which is still considered a MLB pitch, but is far below his fastball and slider. He is a high risk, high reward prospect. If they passed on Owings, who was likely the safest bet of all the DBacks pitchers to make the bigs but did not have an ace ceiling, then Cashman is taking a big risk. Jackson is a big pitcher at 6'5" and fits the mold of a pitcher who could eventually be a top of the rotation starter, but with questions continuing about his command and his age getting to the upper limits of prospect status, his time is running out. He will round out the AAA rotation with Hughes, Clippard, Sanchez, and Ohlendorf.

Alberto Gonzalez sounds like Rafael Belliard to me. Absolutely no power, but has some ability to reach base (.356OBP last yr). But he is considered the best fielding SS in the DBack system, and if their scouts are correct, he may be one of the best fielders in all of the minors. Either way, he projects out by the DBack people as a future SS/2B, but he really sounds like a late inning defensive replacement with no stealing ability.

If that is the trade, then I'm fine with it. I want pitching in return, Jackson and Ohlendorf have the track record of durability and success in the minors. Both are ticketed for AAA and maybe onto other things too. If I had the choice, I would have taken Owings over Ohlendorf, but I have a feeling that the pitcher with the best upside (Jackson) and the pitcher with the best shot of making it in a big league rotation (Owings) were not coming in a package deal.

Gom
01-04-2007, 05:32 PM
The fact that the Yankees have cleared 22.4 million by trading away Randy Johnson [including luxury tax] and got ANYONE in return is amazing.

The fact that Randy Johnson is not going to be ready for the start of the season is something else as well. The Yankees have shaved payroll, added depth to their bullpen, gotten younger, increased their overall depth. In return, they gave up a very quickly declining pitcher coming off of major back surgery who wouldn't be ready at the start of the season. Wait, they also acquired a few quality prospects as well.

You can throw out any stats you want here. The truth is that Randy Johnson is no longer a good pitcher. Karstens, Rasner, Pavano [LOL!] or Igawa can be reasonably counted on to give the same/better results as RJ did last year, or to be reasonably expected this year.

There is a point with players where their ability drops precipitously. I believe RJ is there. He had a 2.65 ERA in the two years before joining the Yankees. His two year average in NY is 4.36, with last year being 5.00.

The Yankees, contrary to opinion here, have gotten better with this deal in 2007. They also have stockpiled an enormous amount of talent that can either be cultivated or traded away at the deadline.

As for my fellow Yankee fans, don't size up Clemens just yet. Don't count your chicks before they hatch.

He Hate Me
01-04-2007, 05:34 PM
bleh...I think we coulda done better. I'll hold off until its' actually finalized becuase I'm hearing different things about how the prospects aren't determined yet.

Gom
01-04-2007, 05:43 PM
The deal is fine. It's more than we should have gotten. The only reason the Diamondbacks make the deal is because they need a draw after getting rid of Luis Gonzalez.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 05:50 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6308886?FSO1&ATT=HMA

DONE!! The 72 hour window has been opened as the deal has been submitted to the commish's office as tentative. Any deal submitted as tentative gives the teams 72 hours to sort out contract and money back and forth, but players usually do not change.

Final score-
Gonzalez, Jackson, Ohlendorf, and Vizcaino. Score one for the good guys.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-04-2007, 06:13 PM
finally. Now we can sit around wait for clemens to sign somewhere.

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 06:16 PM
I love this deal.

Optimist
01-04-2007, 06:20 PM
I love this deal.

Why? Now you can't keep track of how close or how far over 5.00 the Unit's ERA is; you really enjoyed doing that this season.

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 06:25 PM
Why? Now you can't keep track of how close or how far over 5.00 the Unit's ERA is; you really enjoyed doing that this season.That was fun.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-04-2007, 06:25 PM
Why? Now you can't keep track of how close or how far over 5.00 the Unit's ERA is; you really enjoyed doing that this season.

We can still keep track of Beckett's though B)

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 06:32 PM
We can still keep track of Beckett's though B)If Beckett beats the Yankees at the same rate that Unit beat the Sox, I'll be very happy.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 06:35 PM
If Beckett beats the Yankees at the same rate that Unit beat the Sox, I'll be very happy.

If the sox can win games against us while giving up 7+ runs per game, then more power to them.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-04-2007, 06:40 PM
If Beckett beats the Yankees at the same rate that Unit beat the Sox, I'll be very happy.

He's gonna have to turn things around pretty soon then. He was .500 vs. the yanks last year (2-2 0 NDs). Johnson was 7-1, 2 NDs in the last 2 years.

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 06:49 PM
He's gonna have to turn things around pretty soon then. He was .500 vs. the yanks last year (2-2 0 NDs). Johnson was 7-1, 2 NDs in the last 2 years.I predict that Beckett will get more wins against the Yankees over the next two years than all of the players received by the Yankees in return for Johnson will get against the Red Sox. That will make me happy.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 06:50 PM
I predict that Beckett will get more wins against the Yankees over the next two years than all of the players received by the Yankees in return for Johnson will get against the Red Sox. That will make me happy.

how bout if we turn those players plus other players into a player who beats the sox. Does that count?

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 06:51 PM
how bout if we turn those players plus other players into a player who beats the sox. Does that count?Let me know when that happens.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-04-2007, 06:55 PM
how bout if we turn those players plus other players into a player who beats the sox. Does that count?

What if we turn the money we saved into a pitcher who beats the Sox? Surely that counts..

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 06:57 PM
What if we turn the money we saved into a pitcher who beats the Sox? Surely that counts..Let me know when that happens. Who do you have in mind ... Jeff Weaver?

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-04-2007, 06:59 PM
Let me know when that happens. Who do you have in mind ... Jeff Weaver?

You know who I'm talkin bout.

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 07:32 PM
You know who I'm talkin bout.Oh you mean Clemens. That's right. The Yankees have the inside line on Clemens, especially since they rid themselves of Randy Johnson. Well, if you are right about that and he does pitch for the Yankees in 2007 and he pitches for them prior to July, keep in mind that he was only 6-5 against the Red Sox while in a Yankee uniform. In his last year as a Yankee, he was 2-3 with an 8.67 ERA. That's even worse than Unit's 2006 7+ ERA against the Red Sox. What makes you think that Clemens will be any more effective against the Red Sox now that he's three years older? Bring him on.

26 Reasons to Hate Us
01-04-2007, 08:14 PM
Oh you mean Clemens. That's right. The Yankees have the inside line on Clemens, especially since they rid themselves of Randy Johnson. Well, if you are right about that and he does pitch for the Yankees in 2007 and he pitches for them prior to July, keep in mind that he was only 6-5 against the Red Sox while in a Yankee uniform. In his last year as a Yankee, he was 2-3 with an 8.67 ERA. That's even worse than Unit's 2006 7+ ERA against the Red Sox. What makes you think that Clemens will be any more effective against the Red Sox now that he's three years older? Bring him on.

How many players in the current Sox batting order are still there from 2003? 3?

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 08:29 PM
How many players in the current Sox batting order are still there from 2003? 3?That's a good point. Other than Manny there aren't too many guys left from that team. Ortiz only played in 3 of the 5 games that Clemens pitched that year and only two of his losses. Ortiz was a factor in only one of the three games that he played against Clemens. Clemens will not get off as easy against Papi the next time around if there is a next time. In case you haven't noticed, Ortiz has become a major offensive force since then.

Gom
01-04-2007, 08:33 PM
I love this deal.

So do I. For completely different reasons.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 09:16 PM
That's a good point. Other than Manny there aren't too many guys left from that team. Ortiz only played in 3 of the 5 games that Clemens pitched that year and only two of his losses. Ortiz was a factor in only one of the three games that he played against Clemens. Clemens will not get off as easy against Papi the next time around if there is a next time. In case you haven't noticed, Ortiz has become a major offensive force since then.

he can walk Ortiz, take his chances on Manny and the rest of the lineup that is not anywhere near as good as it was top to bottom as it was in 03.

a700hitter
01-04-2007, 09:26 PM
he can walk Ortiz, take his chances on Manny and the rest of the lineup that is not anywhere near as good as it was top to bottom as it was in 03.You make the mistake of equating the '06 offense with the '07 lineup. The '06 lineup did not have Julio Lugo, J.D. Drew or a healthy Coco Crisp-- all upgrades.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 10:36 PM
You make the mistake of equating the '06 offense with the '07 lineup. The '06 lineup did not have Julio Lugo, J.D. Drew or a healthy Coco Crisp-- all upgrades.

all upgrades over the worst sox offense since Ortiz made his way to Boston. Not saying much. And all are far from sure things. The only sure thing I'll give you is that Lugo will be a solid contract that you wont regret.

jacksonianmarch
01-04-2007, 11:59 PM
Here's how I see the rotational change.

Wang = Wang
Mussina = Mussina
Pettitte > RJ
Igawa > Wright
Pavano/Kids > Chacon/Lidle

looks good to me!

Manny Goes Boom
01-05-2007, 12:17 AM
Here's how I see the rotational change.

Wang = Wang
Mussina = Mussina
Pettitte > RJ
Igawa > Wright
Pavano/Kids > Chacon/Lidle

looks good to me!

Have you taken your insulin today mr.?

-No way Wang repeats last year.
-Same for Moose
-Pettite's coming from the NL to the AL. I've always had reservations about guys doing that, and lately it hasnt worked, with a few exceptions (Schilling). And hes advancing in years.
-Chacon was bad but Lidle (R.I.P) in a full year woulda been better than Pavano.

Damn Kool-aid addict... :lol:

a700hitter
01-05-2007, 12:20 AM
Here's how I see the rotational change.

Wang = Wang
Mussina = Mussina
Pettitte > RJ
Igawa > Wright
Pavano/Kids > Chacon/Lidle

looks good to me!Not as good as:

Wang=Wang
Johnson=Johnson
Pettitte>Wright
Moose=Moose
Igawa>Chacon, Lidle

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 12:21 AM
no way wang repeats last yr? Go bet on that sonny.
Mussina too?
Pettitte is really gonna suck back in NY, where he was a star. And yeah, the rest just plain suck. How did you like the sox rotation again?

Manny Goes Boom
01-05-2007, 12:23 AM
no way wang repeats last yr? Go bet on that sonny.
Mussina too?
Pettitte is really gonna suck back in NY, where he was a star. And yeah, the rest just plain suck. How did you like the sox rotation again?

Wang was amazing last year, he's due to flater a little isnt he?
I'm betting on Moose's age to catch up with him.
Pettite was a star 3 years ago, before his injuries in Houston

And where did I ever make a comparison to our rotation?

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 12:24 AM
Not as good as:

Wang=Wang
Clemens>Johnson
Pettitte>Wright
Moose=Moose
Igawa>Chacon, Lidle


looks better now! :)

a700hitter
01-05-2007, 12:28 AM
looks better now! :)Not as good as:
Wang=Wang
Moose=Moose
Johnson=Johnson
Clemens>Wright
Pettitte>Chacon/Lidle

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 12:29 AM
Wang was amazing last year, he's due to flater a little isnt he?
I'm betting on Moose's age to catch up with him.
Pettite was a star 3 years ago, before his injuries in Houston

And where did I ever make a comparison to our rotation?

Wang was the man last yr. It isnt like his stuff is going to regress or peopler are going to "figure him out". He throws 1 pitch 85% of the time and it is so good that nobody can lift it.

Time caught up with Mussina 2 years ago. That is why he changed last yr and accounted for it. He used to throw 92-94, but once his heat dipped into the upper 80s, his differential of speed was not enough between the heater and off speed stuff, so he got shillacked. He slowed down the slow stuff and was reborn. While I dont expect a 3.5 era again, a sub 4 era is not out of the question. I just dont get the "injuries in Houston" bit. He injured his arm 3 years ago swinging a bat. He lost 2/3 of the season to surgery. He came back and has made more starts since than almost any other pitcher in the majors. And aside from the first half of last season, the past 2 yrs have been damn successful.

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 12:30 AM
Not as good as:
Wang=Wang
Moose=Moose
Johnson=Johnson
Clemens>Wright
Pettitte>Chacon/Lidle

not as good as

Santana, Zambrano, Halladay, Peavy, Prior either, but I'll take it.

a700hitter
01-05-2007, 12:32 AM
not as good as

Santana, Zambrano, Halladay, Peavy, Prior either, but I'll take it.Your rotation was only one acquistion away from Wang, Moose, Pettitte, Johnson and Clemens. That would have been impressive.

Manny Goes Boom
01-05-2007, 12:37 AM
not as good as

Santana, Zambrano, Halladay, Peavy, Prior either, but I'll take it.

You'd take Prior?

Gom
01-05-2007, 12:49 AM
Your rotation was only one acquistion away from Wang, Moose, Pettitte, Johnson and Clemens. That would have been impressive.

GUYS! RJ SUCKED LAST YEAR! WHY ARE YOU GUYS HARPING ON THIS GUY LIKE HE WAS HORATIO AT THE BRIDGE FOR US?

Look, power pitchers who don't adapt, with very few exceptions, don't do well. Soon, Schilling will seriously decline. Baseball is all about split second timing. If you start to lose that split second advantage, you get creamed as a pitcher.

I am glad the Yankees FO didn't wait for RJ to completely fall on his face before getting rid of him.

Most of RSN here is pretty sharp. Truthfully, your team feelings aside, did you expect the Yankees to resign RJ after this season? Did you think it was a good move for the Yankees? If not, why not get rid of the guy who was going to start the season on the DL, and use one of your young players/excess starters to take his place. It's not like it's that hard to find a pitcher who gives you a 5.00 ERA is hard to replace.

This off-season, the Yankees have gotten younger, shed a good portion of their bloated payroll, and acquired depth in the most difficult position to do so in their farm system: Starting pitching.

Now the Sox got lucky that Drew didn't pass the physical, I thought it was a bad contract. Let's for a second assume that the deal goes through with roughly the same parameters. Igawa was a bad contract. We both get one bad one. However, the signing of Matsuzaka was great for you guys, Lugo is a good addition, and on the other side, bringing back Pettite was a good move, resigning Moose for a discount is good, and shedding the contracts of Wright, RJ, and Sheffield, while getting serious depth at the Triple A level is a very strong bonus.

I think far and away, the Yankees and Red Sox have had, by far, the best offseasons so far of all the teams. There isn't even a shred of doubt in my mind that these teams rank 1a and 1b. As to who did better, I'm biased, but I'd love to hear someone's opinion on which team has had a better offseason so far than either team.

Hats off to Cashman and Theo. Those guys have done a great job so far this offseason.

a700hitter
01-05-2007, 12:55 AM
GUYS! RJ SUCKED LAST YEAR! WHY ARE YOU GUYS HARPING ON THIS GUY LIKE HE WAS HORATIO AT THE BRIDGE FOR US?.The guy had a herniatred disc in his back. In 2005 when his back was okay he was 17-8 with a 3.79 ERA and a 5-0 record vs. the Red Sox. Winning 17 games with a herniated disc is pretty good too. He's a pretty damn good pitcher when healthy, although he is no longer an overpowering force.

Gom
01-05-2007, 12:59 AM
His velocity was down, his control was off, and he's 43. Did you expect him to be dominant until he was 57 years old? He has to fall off, and realize that at his age, he will get worse, not better.

You guys are going to see the same thing with Schilling very soon. I hope you hold on to him...and see how that will work out.

Also, he is missing the first part of the season. This trade will look like the steal of the year if he doesn't start pitching until July.

BSN07
01-05-2007, 05:34 AM
Gom, we only have Schilling until the end of this year, he's retiring remember? RJ has 2 pitches and thats it, Schilling can get away with a little more since he has more then 2 pitches. Schilling is not the ace he was in 04 but I say he is still good for 15 wins.

As far as the better offseason goes, Like you put it Gom where about even on that one. We filled in the holes that held us back last year( besides closer, still up in the air) and you guys shed payroll and added depth in the depleated farm system. I say it's a draw, our 5 man rotation I would say is better then NYY's, but NYY lineup and bullpen are stronger then ours. I know a tie is like kissing your cousin, but I tip my hat to both clubs. I would have given it to Boston if they had got that closer postion filled with an actual closer, there still time for that tho:thumbsup:

My teams pitchers and catchers go in for training today! Makes the season feel that much closer!

riverside sluggers
01-05-2007, 06:57 AM
His velocity was down, his control was off, and he's 43. Did you expect him to be dominant until he was 57 years old? He has to fall off, and realize that at his age, he will get worse, not better.

You guys are going to see the same thing with Schilling very soon. I hope you hold on to him...and see how that will work out.

Also, he is missing the first part of the season. This trade will look like the steal of the year if he doesn't start pitching until July.

We are going to see the same thing from Schilling very soon? Unlike RJ, Curt's still a better pitcher in the AL East. He is also 3 years younger and doesnt have even close to the back injury that's keeping RJ from being what he used to be. He's got motivation from the addition of potential ace Matsuzaka and the urge to walk into the sunset as 07 is his final season in the major leagues. As Bosox said, expect an ERA of like 4-4.25, 13-16 wins, 180+ Ks

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 07:48 AM
Curt is the better pitcher right now, no doubt. And the fact that they have him on a one yr deal and signed Matsuzaka and are moving Paps to the rotation makes things a little better. I dont think anyone can expect Schilling to have ace numbers, but I wouldnt say he is going to have an RJ-esque fall from grace. RJ was dominant in his day. He had 2 pitches that nobody could hit. Schilling was dominant too. His heat was powerful, but he didnt have any one pitch that was overly dominant aside from that heat. It was the fact that he could hit a corner on command with any pitch is what made him great, and what makes him still effective today with declining stuff. This is why guys like Wells, Clemens, Mussina, and Schilling have aged gracefully. Because location and stuff mixed with veteran savvy will tend to age better than a thrower. Plus, the thinkers of the game are typically your control pitchers, so they tend to make adjustments rather than be stubborn (like RJ was). If Schilling wanted to play 5 more yrs, I have no doubt that he'd be useful. Would he be the ace of old? Probably not, but he'd be a guy who could give you innings and still get people out. He wouldnt be a guy you'd be upset over him being in your rotation. RJ, he's a guy that we really tried to put a good light up to him as he was billed as the savior. But once the stuff and the health starts to go, you need to make adjustments. Mussina made them and had a career rennaissance. Randy made none and was dumped out of town.

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 07:50 AM
Not as good as:
Wang=Wang
Moose=Moose
Igawa>Johnson
Clemens>Wright
Pettitte>Chacon/Lidle


I like this one better :)

And btw, Clemens would not be coming to NY if RJ was still here.

elsrbueno
01-05-2007, 08:02 AM
For what it's worth, Chein Ming Wang was the luckiest pitcher in baseball last year and Johnson was one of the unluckiest.

This to me says expect Johnson to be better (even if it was in NY) and Wang to get worse. How much better/worse, it's hard to say.

Here's the article
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/dips-lips-and-hips/

Now on to the trade: Despite reports that Randy Johnson says he'll be ready for Spring Training, many folks don't think he'll be ready to start the season. Take that into account and the Yankees got 3 prospects and a reliever (who'll be ready for opening day) for a 4 months of a 44 year old coming off of back surgery. I'd say they did pretty well especially considering Johnson's ugly numbers last season.

a700, I don't put any stock in W-L numbers, it's too dependant on support from teammates, and Randy got tons.

Now that Randy's in the NL West, presumedly a little luckier and a lot healthier, I expect him to return to being a good pitcher again. Gone are the 300 strikeout seasons but he should be a decent addition to the Diamondbacks young staff in May or whenever he's fully recovered.

As far as which team had the better offseason... there's already a thread for that.

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 08:12 AM
elsr, I agree 100% on RJ.

As for Wang, we'll have to see. You have to watch him, and how dominant he is before you really can make a judgement. He throws one pitch 85% of the time. It isnt like Chacon or Small, two guys who missed bats miraculously in 05. Wang has been doing this for 2 years now. 330IP of this style of work, and for the most part, it has been consistent. I like to listen to what other players say about pitchers after they face him. This made me worried when it came to Irabu, when Detroit said that he is no better than average and they were right. But it is encouraging about Wang. Most players say they know what is coming, but trying to hit a 95 mph bowling ball is easier said than done. That being said, improvements are going to be minimal for him. He'll never be the 25-4 2.5 era type of guy that is always a wet dream of baseball fans. But he'll be your consistent starter giving you a chance to win every night out. He may never K 200 guys, hell, he may never K 100. But he is a guy who you can hang your hat on, a young Kevin Brown with a better sinker and a better head on his shoulders.

Mr Crunchy
01-05-2007, 08:15 AM
ny fans can say what they want about rj being gone but that gigantic sigh you heard yesterday was from 10,000,000 people in new england who are thrilled that this guy is now in arizona

jacksonianmarch
01-05-2007, 08:19 AM
ny fans can say what they want about rj being gone but that gigantic sigh you heard yesterday was from 10,000,000 people in new england who are thrilled that this guy is now in arizona

but why? I would think the gigantic sigh would have been when they heard he needed back surgery and would miss part of the season. I dont care what he did against you guys 2 yrs ago. Last season he was a BP machine. Just so happened that your BP machines worked better so he won 2 and only lost 1. Rico from the corner coffee shop could have won those games, let alone another big league pitcher.

And to think, a guy who slipped into the detriment category was going to come into the season late, and recovering from major surgery, oh and he would be 44 on the decline is suddenly the guy they never should have traded? I like ya crunch, but gimme a break here. I said I thought his ERA would improve but his peripherals worsen and he'd end the season as our #5. A #5 making 16 mil. I'd rather have Clemens, or Igawa for that matter.