The Official Petition for the Release of Julian Tavares

[Plumpamania]

Dear Theo Epstein,

We understand the predicament you're in concerning the number five spot in the current Red Sox rotation, however as fans from Red Sox Nation, we cannot continue to watch him pitch without developing an ulcer. We are sure as you have to watch it as well, that watching Tavares pitch is worse than passing a kidney stone. Please as a matter of faith to those of whom help to pay the bills, release him.


Red Sox Nation

PS Curt, we know you love to blog and do the internet thing, but please stay off the computer, don't sign this petition, and keep that CT under control.

1). Plump

[RedSoxRooter]

Lester is coming. Lester is coming. Deep breath. Lester is coming.

[a700hitter]

Lester is coming. Lester is coming. Deep breath. Lester is coming.Yeah, that should give us an extra inning each start. Instead of 4 innings, we'll get 5. We need Clemens.

[Coco's Disciples]

Tavarez doesn't need to be released. Just get out of the fucking rotation.

[a700hitter]

Tavarez doesn't need to be released. Just get out of the fucking rotation.He needs to be packaged with Lowell, MDC and Hansen for Helton.

[yankees228]

Lester is coming. Lester is coming. Deep breath. Lester is coming.

What is the timetable on Lester?

[riverside sluggers]

Lester still has 3 starts to go for Single A Greenville. After which they'll send him up to Pawtucket. I dont want to rush the kid, and just hope the Sox are able to swing a deal for a serviceable stop gap starter or someone like Hansack shows enough moxie to hold that 5th spot down

[RedSoxRooter]

I was expecting Lester to return in June. Actually, I think it will work something like - we trade Snyder to a team that's reeaaaly desperate for starting pitching for some A ball catcher, Tavarez moves into long relief and they promote Lester if the Clemens thing falls through.

Basically, I feel the Lester/Clemens timetables are about the same.

[CrespoBlows]

Yeah, that should give us an extra inning each start. Instead of 4 innings, we'll get 5. We need Clemens.

Maybe we should see how the guy pitches without a bad back/cancer? :dunno:

[BruinsFan]

We need Clemens.

Yup.

[Plumpamania]

He needs to be packaged with Lowell, MDC and Hansen for Helton.

For a guy signed to 2011 that hits 15 HR a year with chronic injuries, I'd rather not.

[exsubmariner]

Lester is coming. Lester is coming. Deep breath. Lester is coming.

Yeah I want another 5 IP with a 4.76 ERA pitcher (for more see my Is Lester . . . (http://plls.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-lester-answer.html) post). He needs to stay in the minors until he shows he is completely cancer free and that he can at least dominate AAA. Replacing Tavares with a pitcher who can't break the top 100 in the AL is not the answer (and neither is Clemens).:thumbsup:

[Plumpamania]

Yeah I want another 5 IP with a 4.76 ERA (for more see my <a href="http://plls.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-lester-answer.html">Is Lester . . . </a> post. He needs to stay in the minors until he shows he is completely cancer free and that he can at least dominate AAA. Replacing Tavares with a pitcher who can't break the top 100 in the AL is not the answer (and neither is Clemens).:thumbsup:

Lester did dominate AAA. That was the thing. He just showed no consistency in control, and until his back (cancer) acted up, he was doing very well at the MLB level.

[schillingouttheks]

At this point I'd feel better putting Piniero out there instead...at least he's used to starting...

[riverside sluggers]

Yeah I want another 5 IP with a 4.76 ERA pitcher (for more see my Is Lester . . . (http://plls.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-lester-answer.html) post). He needs to stay in the minors until he shows he is completely cancer free and that he can at least dominate AAA. Replacing Tavares with a pitcher who can't break the top 100 in the AL is not the answer (and neither is Clemens).:thumbsup:

If given the chance, you wouldnt replace Tavarez with Roger Clemens?

[ksushi]

Lester > Clemens. Suck it, 700.

[TGov]

I say, bring up Hansack to be the #5 starter until Lester's ready... and depending... sign Clemens... Also, play Wily Mo at first to get him comfortable then trade Lowell at the trade deadline and move Youk to third and Wily Mo to first... if Brandon Moss keeps producing like he has been bring him up to be the #5 starter along with Ellsbury(#4 unless he's already starting in CF, then trade Coco at the deadline too)... I just thought this up... ha...

If they're going to trade Lowell and Coco, etc... they should go after a 1B (not Helton) or 3B... but I don't know who at the moment...

[RedSoxRooter]

Lester > Clemens. Suck it, 700.

:lol: :lol:

This cracked me up. I feel the same way on both counts.

[a700hitter]

For a guy signed to 2011 that hits 15 HR a year with chronic injuries, I'd rather not.Yeah, I'd rather not give up a bag of shit for a 32 year old with a .400 career OBP.:rolleyes: That would make no sense at all.

[a700hitter]

Lester > Clemens. Suck it, 700.I only wish that wer true. I'd be thrilled if he wins 150 games in his career. Clemens attacked the strike zone from day 1. Remember 20 k's 0 walks against the Mariners. This kid needs to throw strimkes and stop nibbling.

[a700hitter]

Lester > Clemens. Suck it, 700.You know Ksushi you are making me regret letting you off the hook last season when you lost your bet to me. I should have humiliated you. A dose of humble pie might have done you some good, because you still have a tendency to be unecessarily nasty.:thumbdown

[CrespoBlows]

Yeah, I'd rather not give up a bag of shit for a 32 year old with a .400 career OBP.:rolleyes: That would make no sense at all.

Explain to me why what Helton did in 1999 has any bearing on his effectiveness for here until his career is over?

[a700hitter]

Explain to me why what Helton did in 1999 has any bearing on his effectiveness for here until his career is over?In 1999, Helton had the lowest OPB that he has had in 7 years including his injury plagued 2006. It has been over .400 every year since. So, your point is? Edit: Plus, what would be giving up of any real value?

[CrespoBlows]

In 1999, Helton had the lowest OPB that he has had in 7 years including his injury plagued 2006. It has been over .400 every year since. So, your point is?

I used 1999 as a random year. The point is, why does it matter what Helton did for the last 7 years?

Is he going to be an effective ball player for the next 6 years is the better question.

[a700hitter]

I used 1999 as a random year. The point is, why does it matter what Helton did for the last 7 years?

Is he going to be an effective ball player for the next 6 years is the better question.His OBP is .500 so far this year. He's a super star who is only 32. Does he have some sort of degenerative injury or disease that I don't know about? Look out there. There are quite a few very productive first baseman that are over 35. It doesn't matter to a first baseman if he loses a step. His range is not that important. He'll probably be abl to hit until he is 40.

[CrespoBlows]

His OBP is .500 so far this year.

Great. You used a sample size of 19 AB's. (It's actually down to .429, his SLG% is .391)




He's a super star who is only 32.

Was a superstar.


Does he have some sort of degenerative injury or disease that I don't know about?


The Colorado Rockies have placed 1B Todd Helton (stomach) on the 15-day disabled list, because of a stomach ailment, according to the Associated Press.


The Sports Network reports Colorado Rockies 1B Todd Helton (elbow) had surgery to remove a loose body from his right elbow. He suffered the injury last week while working out and should be ready for spring training.


Look out there. There are quite a few very productive first baseman that are over 35.

He'll be 41 years old when his deal is over. I doubt he'll be effective at all then.



It doesn't matter to a first baseman if he loses a step. His range is not that important. He'll probably be abl to hit until he is 40.

Who said anything about range?


2004 Colorado Rockies 154 547 115 190 49 2 32 96 339 127 72 3 0 .469 .620 .347
2005 Colorado Rockies 144 509 92 163 45 2 20 79 272 106 80 3 0 .445 .534 .320
2006 Colorado Rockies 145 546 94 165 40 5 15 81 260 91 64 3 2 .404 .476 .302


That's what everyone's worried about. He's gone from an OPS+ of 159, to a 119. To put that into perspective, Kevin Youkilis, a player you despise, has an OPS+ of 112. Is Todd Helton really worth the $70 million dollars, plus the three arms?

[a700hitter]

He'll be 41 years old when his deal is over. I doubt he'll be effective at all then.So, trade him at 35.

Is his stomach ailment a chronic or degenerative disease that will affect his performance? Is that "body" still in his elbow? He's 32. Papi is 31 and fat. Should we move him after this year?

Helton was injured the last two years and he still was a force. Now he is healthy.

[jacksonianmarch]

So, trade him at 35.

Is his stomach ailment a chronic or degenerative disease that will affect his performance? Is that "body" still in his elbow? He's 32. Papi is 31 and fat. Should we move him after this year?

I had heard he had ulcerative colitis which is chronic.

[a700hitter]

I had heard he had ulcerative colitis which is chronic.It's treatable and unless he is experiencing a flare up, it shouldn't affect his performance.

[a700hitter]

Even if it does flare up, he can wear depends.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's treatable and unless he is experiencing a flare up, it shouldn't affect his performance.

depends on the severity. It could also cause toxic megacolon and an increased succeptibility to cancer. And even when there is a flareup, he could lose 10-20 pounds easy, even with meds.

[ksushi]

700, please take a joke, and your assessment of Lester is awful. I think I bet for the turn around of the sox and I think you let me off because we had the worst rash of injuries since the biblical plagues... sort of reasonable... but if you want to make me pay for it now, go right ahead.

[a700hitter]

depends on the severity. It could also cause toxic megacolon and an increased succeptibility to cancer. And even when there is a flareup, he could lose 10-20 pounds easy, even with meds.My wife has had it for 10+ years, and I know a few others with it. Mostly, it's a manageable condition, especially at his age. You would hate it if we got him. If you read that we got him tomorrow, you'd throw up all day.:D

[jacksonianmarch]

My wife has had it for 10+ years, and I know a few others with it. Mostly, it's a manageable condition, especially at his age. You would hate it if we got him. If you read that we got him tomorrow, you'd throw up all day.:D

No I wouldnt get sick, but he would make you better for now. I would love it when you are hamstrung by his salary in about 3-4 yrs.

As far as the disease, your wife likely has a milder form. I have seen it get pretty bad in some, and I assisted in removing someone's colon because of it. (Laugh all you want, it was a gory and gross procedure).

[a700hitter]

No I wouldnt get sick, but he would make you better for now. I would love it when you are hamstrung by his salary in about 3-4 yrs. We could trade him in one or two years before he starts to shit himself.


As far as the disease, your wife likely has a milder form. I have seen it get pretty bad in some, and I assisted in removing someone's colon because of it. (Laugh all you want, it was a gory and gross procedure).I'm not laughing at it. In it's most severe form, I guess it develops into Crohn's Disease. Most cases are manageable, and I am sure that Helton is getting the finest medical attention money can buy. And you woul get sick if we got him.

[a700hitter]

700, please take a joke, and your assessment of Lester is awful. I think I bet for the turn around of the sox and I think you let me off because we had the worst rash of injuries since the biblical plagues... sort of reasonable... but if you want to make me pay for it now, go right ahead.Duderino, my assessment of Lester was right on the money, when I saw him last ST. I said he didn't throw as hard as the reports and that his command was lacking. I was practically run from the board for those comments, but that is the Lester we all saw when he came up. Maybe it was the cancer. Maybe it wasn't. I don't expect him to have command right away and he'll be a 5 inning pitcher until he can adjust to the majors.

EDIT: That's not why I let you off. I just don't see the need for unecessarily humiliating someone.

[jacksonianmarch]

We could trade him in one or two years before he starts to shit himself.

I'm not laughing at it. In it's most severe form, I guess it develops into Crohn's Disease. Most cases are manageable, and I am sure that Helton is getting the finest medical attention money can buy. And you woul get sick if we got him.

It wont develop into Crohn's disease. They are two distinctly different entities.

[jacksonianmarch]

and as far as dealing him 2 yrs in, who would want him if he shat the bed enough for you to want to deal him? He is nearly impossible to trade as is.

[a700hitter]

It wont develop into Crohn's disease. They are two distinctly different entities.
You are the doctor. I'll still take a first baseman with the gassy shits that has a .400 OBP.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are the doctor. I'll still take a first baseman with the gassy shits that has a .400 OBP.

HAHA. Got me there. Gassy shits, that is awesome.

either way, g'night.

[Plumpamania]

So, trade him at 35.

Is his stomach ailment a chronic or degenerative disease that will affect his performance? Is that "body" still in his elbow? He's 32. Papi is 31 and fat. Should we move him after this year?

Helton was injured the last two years and he still was a force. Now he is healthy.

Trade him at 35, when the Rockies couldn't deal him at 32? Explain that to me. And the difference is Papi hasn't lost almost 50 points on his OPS+. His HR production hasn't gone from 49 to 15, in Coors.

[a700hitter]

Trade him at 35, when the Rockies couldn't deal him at 32? Explain that to me. And the difference is Papi hasn't lost almost 50 points on his OPS+. His HR production hasn't gone from 49 to 15, in Coors. He still worth unloading Tavarez and Lowell's salaries and MDC and Hansen for two-thirds of his Helton's salary. Once his production goes up, we will not get him as cheaply.

[exsubmariner]

If given the chance, you wouldnt replace Tavarez with Roger Clemens?

Am not a big Clemens fan, I just have something against dominant pitchers in the regular season who become .500 pitchers in the post season.

[Plumpamania]

He still worth unloading Tavarez and Lowell's salaries and MDC and Hansen for two-thirds of his Helton's salary. Once his production goes up, we will not get him as cheaply.

Lowell is a FA at years end, and Tavares in 2 years. That's not worth 6 more years of $10 million a year for a 1Bman who's not hitting for power in Coors.

[jacksonianmarch]

Am not a big Clemens fan, I just have something against dominant pitchers in the regular season who become .500 pitchers in the post season.

He's 12-8 in the postseason.

[TheKilo]

He still worth unloading Tavarez and Lowell's salaries and MDC and Hansen for two-thirds of his Helton's salary. Once his production goes up, we will not get him as cheaply.

It's not worth the long-term commitment.

If he sucks we're stuck with him. His last few years indicate to me he's turned into a singles hitter.

Besides, where has it been said (source plz) that Tavarez, Lowell, MDC and Hansen will get it done?

edit - And if I'm trading four players for one I'd like to get something better than an aging Helton in return.

[CrespoBlows]

So, trade him at 35.

To who? If Helton performs well, we don't need to trade him, but if he's awful, who the hell is going to want him?



Is his stomach ailment a chronic or degenerative disease that will affect his performance? Is that "body" still in his elbow?

Could sap his power, which is already occuring.


He's 32.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=115732

Incorrect. He's 34.


Papi is 31 and fat. Should we move him after this year?

Quit being ridiculous. Do you see Ortiz's weight affecting his performance? Do you see Helton's injury causing a major decline?



Helton was injured the last two years and he still was a force. Now he is healthy.

C'mon. Look at the stats just once in a while. That "force" had an OPS+ of only 11 points higher than Youkilis.

[a700hitter]

Trade him at 35, when the Rockies couldn't deal him at 32? Explain that to me. And the difference is Papi hasn't lost almost 50 points on his OPS+. His HR production hasn't gone from 49 to 15, in Coors. It should be easier for Boston to get rid of him, because we'll be paying him only half to two-thirds of his salary. We would be discounting of a big discount from his original contract.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

It should be easier for Boston to get rid of him, because we'll be paying him only half to two-thirds of his salary. We would be discounting of a big discount from his original contract.

Good point.

[a700hitter]

And if I'm trading four players for one I'd like to get something better than an aging Helton in return.Lowell and Tavarez are both overpaid so getting rid of their contracts would be a plus. MDC and Hansen are like giving up nothing. They stink.

[a700hitter]

To who? If Helton performs well, we don't need to trade him, but if he's awful, who the hell is going to want him?It's rarely that black and white. They might trade him because he doesn't fit in, or they don't win a WC with him in the first two years and they want to go in a different direction, or several other reasons.

[a700hitter]

Incorrect. He's 34.Correction. He is 33.

That "force" had an OPS+ of only 11 points higher than Youkilis.
His stats will blow aw?y Youk's this year. You'll see. Shall I kick your ass in another bet?

[TheKilo]

It's rarely that black and white. They might trade him because he doesn't fit in, or they don't win a WC with him in ther first two years and they want to go in a different direction, or several other reasons.

If Helton sucks and continues his precipitous decline who can the Sox trade him to?

[TGov]

Lowell and Tavarez are both overpaid so getting rid of their contracts would be a plus. MDC and Hansen are like giving up nothing. They stink.

I would definitely want more than just an aging Helton if I'm giving up my starting third base, #5 pitcher (can't believe i just called Tavarez that) and two of my young pitchers, one who may become a future closer... that is if those 4 were to be enough to get Helton...

Garrett Atkins would be a great pick up instead of Helton, younger and getting better...
AVG .329, 120 RBIs, 117 Runs, 29 HRs... in '06...

[a700hitter]

If Helton sucks and continues his precipitous decline who can the Sox trade him to?
You think that a guy who each and every year has a .400 OPB is in a precipitous decline? You have some lofty expectations. Who has done that on the current Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

Garrett Atkins would be a great pick up instead of Helton, younger and getting better...
AVG .329, 120 RBIs, 117 Runs, 29 HRs... in '06...
The Rockie GM would have to be an idiot to give up a young star for a bunch of has beens and du d prospects.

[TheKilo]

You think that a guy who each and every year has a .400 OPB is in a precipitous decline? You have some lofty expectations. Who has done that on the current Red Sox.

Sigh. His slugging has been declining tremendously the last few years.

Do you want a $15 million singles hitter?


The Rockie GM would have to be an idiot to give up a young star for a bunch of has beens and du d prospects.

So why would he do the same for Helton, who in your words is "a superstar"?

[CrespoBlows]

His stats will blow aw&#225;y Youk's this year. You'll see. Shall I kick your ass in another bet?

Again, no one said that Helton was worse than Youkilis. There just isn't the major difference you insist there is. (If we are to make a bet, we have to adjust for ballpark difficulties)

I'm desperately searching to find an instance where you've beat me in a bet? I'm trying to find something where you and I even made a bet. Is this another instance, where your perception is failing you terribly?

[CrespoBlows]

You think that a guy who each and every year has a .400 OPB is in a precipitous decline? You have some lofty expectations. Who has done that on the current Red Sox.

Todd Helton OPS+ numbers:

2003: 168
2004: 159
2005: 144
2006: 119
2007: 115 (small sample size)

Todd Helton EQA numbers:

2003: .339
2004: .344
2005: .326
2006: .297

Todd Helton OPS:

2003: 1.088
2004: 1.088
2005: .979
2006: .880

Seriously, how much more stats do I have to show you before you yield the point? Also, this is in Coors Field, an offensive player's paradise.

[Plumpamania]

It should be easier for Boston to get rid of him, because we'll be paying him only half to two-thirds of his salary. We would be discounting of a big discount from his original contract.

The Rockies picking up his contract will only exist if he's a member of the Red Sox. The same way if the Yankees trade Alex Rodriguez, the full contract goes to the next team unless the Yankees pick up part of the tab. The Yankees are only paying ARod $16 million of the $23 million.

Let's say Helton is traded to us, and the Rockies pay $6 million of the $16 million he's owed every year. So we only pay $10 million (decent for 3 years tops of Helton's current production) and we try to trade him after two years (he would still have a no trade clause from the original contract in it), the Rockies would no longer be liable for the $6 million per year.

We'd have to pick up the minimum per year that the Rockies did, since Helton would be 2 years older and possible further production slacking.

Bad, bad idea.

[Plumpamania]

The Rockie GM would have to be an idiot to give up a young star for a bunch of has beens and du d prospects.

Dan O'Dowd gave $121 million to Mike Hampton and $51 million to Denny Neagle in the same offseason as Helton's contract. That should tell you he's a moron. But he has done a much better job lately and given a 2 year contract extension. Having Garrett Atkins, Matt Holliday, Ian Stewart and Jeff Francis is something great to build on. However Stewart and Atkins can both only aptly play 1B and 3B. Helton is the only one moving from that team. And you're right he'd have to revert back to idiocrasy for a trade Atkins for anything aside from a MDC/Hansen/Ellsbury/Place combination.

[Plumpamania]

Good point.

Bad point, read my post above.

[Plumpamania]

Lowell and Tavarez are both overpaid so getting rid of their contracts would be a plus. MDC and Hansen are like giving up nothing. They stink.

Maybe you didn't read my post that you've already quoted. Lowell is a free agent after this year. Red Sox Contracts. (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html) So his contract is fine. Tavares is a free agent at the end of the year with a Club Option for 2008. Those contracts DON'T MATTER.

We are losing after 2007:
Matt Clement
Eric Hinske
Julian Tavares
Mike Lowell
Joel Piniero
Mike Timlin
Curt Schilling
J.C. Romero

So again who the hell cares about shedding expiring contracts for a 34 year old 15 HR hitting 15man (again Coors field and only 15 HR).

Bad idea bro. Bad idea.

[rician blast]

Between Schilling, Lowell and Clement I'm guessing they have around $30m coming off the books.

[riverside sluggers]

I just thought you guys would get a kick out of this. At redsox.com they have that weekly email bag thing. Take a gander at what this reporter for the site said about Tavarez


How come the Red Sox are going with Tavarez as their fifth starter? He seemed to be one of their worst pitchers last year, and now they're having him start? Besides having a good end to his season in 2006, this looks like a bad/risky move.
-- Matt, Naugatuck, Conn.

Tavarez is one of those versatile and durable guys who can fill every pitching role. Right now, his best fit is as a starter. Perhaps when Lester is ready to pitch in the Majors again or if Clemens decides he wants to come to Boston, Tavarez will go back to the bullpen. I'm not sure why everyone is so down on Tavarez. He was a lot of fun to watch last September. He throws strikes. And though Saturday was an exception, he usually keeps the team in the game.

[jacksonianmarch]

I just thoiught you guys would get a kick out of this. At redsox.com they have that weekly email bag thing. Take a gander at what this reporter for the site said about Tavarez

what a douche. Yeah, he throws strikes. Solid work. 1.5WHIP and he is a good #5? When a guy wouldnt even be an upgrade on our rotation, you know he sucks.

[a700hitter]

Sigh. His slugging has been declining tremendously the last few years.Double sigh. He was injured the last two years, which you keep pointing to as a decline. There is a difference between being injured and being in decline. As an injured player, he had a .400 OBP. That's pretty incredible.

So why would he do the same for Helton, who in your words is "a superstar"?The other guy, Atkins is a young, cheap superstar. Don't you see the difference? Why would they want to salary dump him? Duh.

[a700hitter]

Todd Helton OPS+ numbers:

2003: 168
2004: 159
2005: 144
2006: 119
2007: 115 (small sample size)

Todd Helton EQA numbers:

2003: .339
2004: .344
2005: .326
2006: .297

Todd Helton OPS:

2003: 1.088
2004: 1.088
2005: .979
2006: .880

Seriously, how much more stats do I have to show you before you yield the point? Also, this is in Coors Field, an offensive player's paradise.Thank you for all these stats. I asked you how many of our current players have a .400 OBP each and every year. But thanks for these stat nonetheless.:rolleyes:

[a700hitter]

[color=red]The Rockies picking up his contract will only exist if he's a member of the Red Sox. The same way if the Yankees trade Alex Rodriguez, the full contract goes to the next team unless the Yankees pick up part of the tab. The Yankees are only paying ARod $16 million of the $23 million.

Let's say Helton is traded to us, and the Rockies pay $6 million of the $16 million he's owed every year. So we only pay $10 million (decent for 3 years tops of Helton's current production) and we try to trade him after two years (he would still have a no trade clause from the original contract in it), the Rockies would no longer be liable for the $6 million per year.

We'd have to pick up the minimum per year that the Rockies did, since Helton would be 2 years older and possible further production slacking.Is this some union rule that I don't know about? If not, who says it has to be in the Helton deal. You are setting up a straw man here. If Colorado wants out of his contract bad enough, they'll eat the $ no matter what. If they don't agree there would be no deal.

[a700hitter]

Bad point, read my post above.Good point. See my post addressing your strawman.

[a700hitter]

Again, no one said that Helton was worse than Youkilis. There just isn't the major difference you insist there is. (If we are to make a bet, we have to adjust for ballpark difficulties)

I'm desperately searching to find an instance where you've beat me in a bet? I'm trying to find something where you and I even made a bet. Is this another instance, where your perception is failing you terribly?There is a diferrence between perception and memory. You do realize that. Don't you? I have a bad memory. You have bad perception. Anywhoo, let this be the first time I beat you in a bet. I am predicting that Helton's stats will completely trash anything Youk does this year. Furthermore, I think Helton will still be a productinve starting player after Youk has been permanently relegated to someone's bench. If my perception is so bad, you should have no problem taking me up on these bets.

[CrespoBlows]

Thank you for all these stats. I asked you how many of our current players have a .400 OBP each and every year. But thanks for these stat nonetheless.:rolleyes:

If you gave Kevin Youkilis a chance, he'd probably do it. Plus, I'm curious to see what Todd Helton would do out of Coors Field. Let's take a look.


Away 271 37 72 19 1 7 30 38 3 40 1 0 .266 .360 .421 .781

A .781 OPS away from Coors Field? Real fucking special. Looks like Kevin Youkilis is the better bet at nearly 1/50th the cost. We want this guy for 6 years? C'mon, just give up.

[CrespoBlows]

There is a diferrence between perception and memory.

You have the perception that Todd Helton will be a productive player at 41 years old, we can trade him if he completely tanks in Fenway, and that Coors Field isn't a major boon to offensive players.


Anywhoo, let this be the first time I beat you in a bet. I am predicting that Helton's stats will completely trash anything Youk does this year. Furthermore, I think Helton will still be a productinve starting player after Youk has been permanently relegated to someone's bench. If my perception is so bad, you should have no problem taking me up on these bets.

First off, we have to adjust for Coors Field. Then we have to set a definition for "trashing."

[a700hitter]

If you gave Kevin Youkilis a chance, he'd probably do it. Plus, I'm curious to see what Todd Helton would do out of Coors Field. Let's take a look.


Away 271 37 72 19 1 7 30 38 3 40 1 0 .266 .360 .421 .781

.Well even the blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally. This is the first reasonable argument that you have put forth. All this "decline" talk for a guy who is healthy again and age 33 is just ridiculous, especially when his OBP continues over .400. We really don't know the "Coors field effect" Nevertheless, I'd like to find out. Fenway is a pretty good hitters park too. Lefties seem to do pretty well in the friendly confines. He may not hit 30 HRs, but he does goe the other way with some power. He might hit 40-50 doubles for the Sox.

[a700hitter]

You have the perception that Todd Helton will be a productive player at 41 years old, we can trade him if he completely tanks in Fenway, and that Coors Field isn't a major boon to offensive players.No these are mis perceptions of my position. I never said he'd be good until he is 41 and I never said that we could trade him if he tanks in Fenway. My firm position is that he will be a very good to great player in Fenway. In either case, we could trade him, if we don't win a WC in the next couple of years. It's a mis perception on your part and others that he is in a steep decline.
First off, we have to adjust for Coors Field. Then we have to set a definition for "trashing."Here's Helton's and Youk's away stats over their careers. I have to say that I still like a career .392 OBP and an .898 OPS. youk's away stats don't look so hot. Let's bet on their away stats. That would eliminate the "Coors Field" and "Fenway Park" effects.


AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SF BA OBP SLG OPS
2516 380 738 189 8 110 380 402 67 390 22 22 .293 .392 .506 .898
440 65 111 26 2 14 59 77 0 98 9 9 .252 .368 .416 .784

[Plumpamania]

The "straw" you're think I'm talking about is about as true hard as "steel".

[a700hitter]

[color=red]Maybe you didn't read my post that you've already quoted. Lowell is a free agent after this year. Red Sox Contracts. (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html) So his contract is fine. Tavares is a free agent at the end of the year with a Club Option for 2008. Those contracts DON'T MATTER.So, we don't have to pay them this year? Are they not overpaid this year?

[Plumpamania]

No these are mis perceptions of my position. I never said he'd be good until he is 41 and I never said that we could trade him if he tanks in Fenway. My firm position is that he will be a very good to great player in Fenway. In either case, we could trade him, if we don't win a WC in the next couple of years. It's a mis perception on your part and others that he is in a steep decline.Here's Helton's and Youk's away stats over their careers. I have to say that I still like a career .392 OBP and an .898 OPS. youk's away stats don't look so hot. Let's bet on their away stats. That would eliminate the "Coors Field" and "Fenway Park" effects.


AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SF BA OBP SLG OPS
2516 380 738 189 8 110 380 402 67 390 22 22 .293 .392 .506 .898
440 65 111 26 2 14 59 77 0 98 9 9 .252 .368 .416 .784

And Youkilis is 28 starting the prime of his career and Helton is 34, exiting his. Good show. Career stats mean complete shit when you are talking about a player exiting his prime and showing a decline.

[Plumpamania]

So, we don't have to pay them this year? Are they not overpaid this year?

Sure they're overpaid for what they contribute. However, I'd rather over pay those two for one year who are combined cheaper than one year of Helton, let alone another five after that. If Helton hasn't shown a proneness to injury the last few years and a steep power decline, I'm all for it, easily. However I'm not for it when you look at the trends that have unfortunately hit Helton at this stage of his career.

[a700hitter]

The "straw" you're think I'm talking about is about as true hard as "steel".Is that a union or MLB required provision in a contract where one team agrees to continue to pay part of a player's contract after he is traded? If it is, please give me a cite or a link, otherwise it is a strawman.

[a700hitter]

Sure they're overpaid for what they contribute. However, I'd rather over pay those two for one year who are combined cheaper than one year of Helton, let alone another five after that. If Helton hasn't shown a proneness to injury the last few years and a steep power decline, I'm all for it, easily. However I'm not for it when you look at the trends that have unfortunately hit Helton at this stage of his career.I never compared the length or amount of their contracts to Helton's contract. They are overpaid, whether it be for one year or not.

[Plumpamania]

Is that a union or MLB required provision in a contract where one team agrees to continue to pay part of a player's contract after he is traded? If it is, please give me a cite or a link, otherwise it is a strawman.

Wish I could give you a link to Mike and the Mad Dog where it came up. Let me put it this way:

Team A trades Player X to Team B with Y amount of cash for Player X to play for Team B. When Team B wants to trade Player X to Team C two years later, Team A is not liable for the payment of Player X on another transaction that they had no consent/input over.

[CrespoBlows]

I never said he'd be good until he is 41


He'll probably be abl to hit until he is 40.


I never said that we could trade him if he tanks in Fenway.

If he's good, why would we trade him? The only way the Red Sox would trade a productive ball player is if they got a hell of a deal in return. The Rockies shopped Helton around all winter and got one suitor.


]It's a mis perception on your part and others that he is in a steep decline.

Look at the stats again. A .200 fall of in OPS is a major decline.



Here's Helton's and Youk's away stats over their careers. I have to say that I still like a career .392 OBP and an .898 OPS.

Great point. Since career stats mean a lot when evalutating a player from ages 34 to 41.


youk's away stats don't look so hot. Let's bet on their away stats. That would eliminate the "Coors Field" and "Fenway Park" effects.

I think Helton will outhit Youkilis this year. I'm saying he won't trash him like you claim. Helton will probably have a higher road OPS of .15 to .25 points.

[CrespoBlows]

Well even the blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally. This is the first reasonable argument that you have put forth.

I'll let the others on the board be the judge of that.


We really don't know the "Coors field effect" Nevertheless, I'd like to find out. Fenway is a pretty good hitters park too.

Oh, but I do.


Park Factor - 2006
Rk Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
1 Great American (Cincinnati, Ohio) 1.153 1.275 1.026 0.929 0.400 1.065
2 Coors Field (Denver, Colorado) 1.149 1.167 1.141 1.006 1.224 1.067
3 Kauffman Stadium (Kansas City, Missouri) 1.147 0.982 1.088 1.195 1.207 1.124
4 Chase Field (Phoenix, Arizona) 1.141 1.343 1.101 1.096 1.636 1.084
5 Rangers Ballpark (Arlington, Texas) 1.081 1.066 1.025 1.133 0.778 1.043
6 Wrigley Field (Chicago, Illinois) 1.075 1.212 1.011 1.080 1.364 0.898
7 Rogers Centre (Toronto, Ontario) 1.067 1.272 1.031 1.016 2.000 0.954
8 Citizens Bank Park (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) 1.063 1.201 1.007 1.029 0.653 0.955
9 U.S. Cellular Field (Chicago, Illinois) 1.054 1.307 1.009 0.912 0.645 1.120
10 Dodger Stadium (Los Angeles, California) 1.046 1.194 1.024 1.019 0.517 1.160
Rk Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
11 Tropicana Field (St. Petersburg, Florida) 1.041 1.164 0.972 0.932 1.609 1.094
12 Minute Maid Park (Houston, Texas) 1.034 1.171 0.989 1.007 1.292 0.965
13 Fenway Park (Boston, Massachusetts) 1.031 0.727 1.041 1.368 1.000 0.936
14 PNC Park (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) 1.008 0.822 1.118 1.263 1.000 0.980
15 Miller Park (Milwaukee, Wisconsin) 1.004 1.006 0.947 0.982 1.364 1.095
16 AT&T Park (San Francisco, California) 0.993 0.681 0.972 1.080 1.049 0.991
17 Camden Yards (Baltimore, Maryland) 0.985 1.184 1.030 0.876 0.600 0.914
18 Comerica Park (Detroit, Michigan) 0.980 0.806 1.016 0.921 1.167 1.020
19 Metrodome (Minneapolis, Minnesota) 0.963 0.836 0.976 0.947 1.591 0.792
20 Busch Stadium (St. Louis, Missouri) 0.950 0.887 0.968 0.886 0.752 1.038
Rk Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
21 Turner Field (Atlanta, Georgia) 0.946 0.929 1.026 0.994 0.722 0.906
22 Jacobs Field (Cleveland, Ohio) 0.946 0.866 0.942 0.982 0.786 1.065
23 RFK Stadium (Washington, D.C.) 0.942 0.859 0.960 0.861 1.370 0.864
24 McAfee Coliseum (Oakland, California) 0.921 0.852 0.976 1.071 0.931 0.899
25 Angel Stadium (Anaheim, California) 0.906 0.801 1.025 0.939 0.793 0.957
26 Shea Stadium (Flushing, New York) 0.902 0.881 0.935 1.003 0.844 1.019
27 Yankee Stadium (Bronx, New York) 0.900 1.065 0.930 0.947 0.483 0.934
28 Dolphin Stadium (Miami, Florida) 0.898 0.881 0.945 0.969 1.405 1.107
29 Safeco Field (Seattle, Washington) 0.881 0.888 0.895 0.913 0.912 1.073
30 Petco Park (San Diego, California) 0.860 0.982 0.905 0.767 1.086 1.012
(Note, this is when the Rockies used the humidor)


Park Factor - 2005
Rk Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
1 Coors Field (Denver, Colorado) 1.285 1.119 1.254 1.135 1.481 1.035
2 Citizens Bank Park (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) 1.161 1.289 1.117 1.127 1.406 0.931
3 Great American (Cincinnati, Ohio) 1.128 1.263 1.070 1.187 0.530 0.958
4 Turner Field (Atlanta, Georgia) 1.095 0.879 1.061 1.120 1.399 1.014
5 Chase Field (Phoenix, Arizona) 1.078 1.046 1.045 1.069 1.659 1.041
6 Rangers Ballpark (Arlington, Texas) 1.076 1.263 1.036 1.032 1.812 0.975
7 McAfee Coliseum (Oakland, California) 1.064 0.890 1.015 1.127 0.782 0.980
8 Yankee Stadium (Bronx, New York) 1.051 1.106 1.083 0.882 1.122 0.891
9 U.S. Cellular Field (Chicago, Illinois) 1.044 1.375 0.972 0.923 0.864 1.086
10 Rogers Centre (Toronto, Ontario) 1.039 1.255 1.045 1.071 1.085 0.882
Rk Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
11 PNC Park (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) 1.034 0.868 1.058 1.125 1.338 1.018
12 Busch Stadium (St. Louis, Missouri) 1.028 1.148 1.015 1.062 0.628 0.992
13 Fenway Park (Boston, Massachusetts) 1.027 0.886 0.964 1.324 0.890 1.076
14 Metrodome (Minneapolis, Minnesota) 1.019 0.947 0.972 0.967 0.828 0.897
15 Wrigley Field (Chicago, Illinois) 1.015 1.052 1.009 1.058 1.086 0.954
16 Miller Park (Milwaukee, Wisconsin) 0.992 1.085 0.895 0.877 0.948 1.032
17 Tropicana Field (St. Petersburg, Florida) 0.986 0.876 1.001 0.904 1.266 0.991
18 Kauffman Stadium (Kansas City, Missouri) 0.972 0.761 1.022 1.157 0.912 0.988
19 Safeco Field (Seattle, Washington) 0.970 0.844 1.020 0.962 0.608 1.049
20 AT&T Park (San Francisco, California) 0.970 0.915 0.963 0.908 1.044 0.974
Rk Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
21 Shea Stadium (Flushing, New York) 0.963 0.871 1.005 0.952 0.686 1.013
22 Comerica Park (Detroit, Michigan) 0.959 0.944 1.038 0.887 1.737 1.041
23 Minute Maid Park (Houston, Texas) 0.949 1.195 0.990 0.804 0.926 0.971
24 Angel Stadium (Anaheim, California) 0.921 0.901 0.951 0.984 0.988 0.983
25 Dodger Stadium (Los Angeles, California) 0.901 1.049 0.904 0.977 0.416 1.042
26 Dolphin Stadium (Miami, Florida) 0.883 0.803 0.925 0.859 1.095 1.114
27 Jacobs Field (Cleveland, Ohio) 0.880 0.872 0.923 1.043 0.338 1.004
28 Camden Yards (Baltimore, Maryland) 0.876 0.961 0.943 0.824 0.681 1.214
29 RFK Stadium (Washington, D.C.) 0.860 0.775 0.851 0.888 1.051 0.953
30 Petco Park (San Diego, California) 0.803 0.750 0.903 0.832 1.331 0.945


(This is when they did not, and the Rockies are NOT using it this year.)



Lefties seem to do pretty well in the friendly confines. He may not hit 30 HRs, but he does goe the other way with some power. He might hit 40-50 doubles for the Sox.

I agree, his average may see a slight rise (about 1 to 2%), but what's left of his power numbers would continue to be chipped at. I'd say he might hit six HR's out of Fenway.

(Sorry, can't post links)

[Plumpamania]

I never compared the length or amount of their contracts to Helton's contract. They are overpaid, whether it be for one year or not.

That's the point. You want to put them in a deal with two of our possibly most overvalued young arms for Helton. Both Tavares and Lowell are FREE AGENTS after the year. I'd rather overpay for one year of them, than six years of Helton. We have a $143,026,214 payroll this year that includes the payment of Edgar Renteria. We will lose $46,550,000 roughly after this season. That gives us a chance to acquire any number of possible players eligible after this season that are not limited but include:

1B/OF Adam Dunn
OF Kosuke Fukudome
CF Torii Hunter
SP Jason Jennings
CF Andruw Jones
MR Scott Linebrink
CL Mariano Rivera
SP Jake Westbrook
1B/OF Brad Wilkerson
1B/OF Craig Wilson
SP Carlos Zambrano

That's the current list, not naming any non-tendered players or waived or released that could happen. Personally I'd rather instead of dealing for Helton sign Adam Dunn. But that's just me.

[a700hitter]

Wish I could give you a link to Mike and the Mad Dog where it came up. Let me put it this way:

Team A trades Player X to Team B with Y amount of cash for Player X to play for Team B. When Team B wants to trade Player X to Team C two years later, Team A is not liable for the payment of Player X on another transaction that they had no consent/input over.I am glad you are relying on erudite legal authorities such as Mike and the Mad Dog.:lol: I don't doubt that these are the terms of ARod's deal and maybe even Unit's deal, but are you saying that this is standard legally required language? Not as far as I know. Do you even have a link to this being part of the negotiations with the Red Sox. If not, your argument is disingenuous. Even if this part of the negotiations with the Red Sox, that doesn't mean it is a requirement. The Red Sox could negotiate that term.

[a700hitter]

Look at the stats again. A .200 fall of in OPS is a major decline. The result of .....INJURY.
Great point. Since career stats mean a lot when evalutating a player from ages 34 to 41.I agree. It will be quite pathetic when old man Helton at age 33 trashes Youk age 28. Take the bet if you are so sure of your powers of perception.

I think Helton will outhit Youkilis this year. I'm saying he won't trash him like you claim. Helton will probably have a higher road OPS of .15 to .25 points.He will trash him. Take the bet. Make me eat my words.

[Plumpamania]

I am glad you are relying on erudite legal authorities such as Mike and the Mad Dog.:lol: I don't doubt that these are the terms of ARod's deal and maybe even Unit's deal, but are you saying that this is standard legally required language? Not as far as I know. Do you even have a link to this being part of the negotiations with the Red Sox. If not, your argument is disingenuous. Even if this part of the negotiations with the Red Sox, that doesn't mean it is a requirement. The Red Sox could negotiate that term.

Fine they persay could negotiate that term. However it is still a bad deal as you've been shown time and time again. I don't understand your hardon for a near middle-aged man that has seen a drastic drop in production.

[a700hitter]

Fine they persay could negotiate that term. However it is still a bad deal as you've been shown time and time again. I don't understand your hardon for a near middle-aged man that has seen a drastic drop in production.Because he would per se be the third best hitter on our team. That's why. It's that simple. Everything you have pointed to is an irrelevant rationalization.

[Plumpamania]

Because he would per se be the third best hitter on our team. That's why. It's that simple. Everything you have pointed to is an irrelevant rationalization.

15 HRs and a pathetic SLG, sure. I'd still rather have Adam Dunn.

[CrespoBlows]

The result of .....INJURY.

So, his OPS is going to spike back up to his '03 levels?


I agree. It will be quite pathetic when old man Helton at age 33 trashes Youk age 28.

Why is that pathetic? Helton is the better hitter. Just not as great as you think he is.



Take the bet if you are so sure of your powers of perception.
He will trash him. Take the bet. Make me eat my words.

Look at the stats. That should make you shut up. All of it says Helton is on the decline, he is a product of Coors Field, and he isn't worth a 6 year deal. Helton also gets to play in 19 games of top 10 offensive ballparks.

Here's my prediction, Youkilis will be within .20 points of Helton's road OPS.

[RobZombie]

Getting back to the topic of the thread at hand.

Julian Tavarez has a couple of good pitches with movement that allow him to get ground balls. If he's able to do this as he was somewhat last September he should be less than terrible which is what the Sox need.

Usually guys with sinkers pitch on feel. They need to pitch a lot to pitch well and Tavarez hasn't pitched on regular rest yet.

I think that Tavarez at least needs a few starts on regular rest before fans start to scream for his head. I know that Sox fans aren't the most patient in the world, but sheesh give the guy a few starts on regular rest before calling for his head.

[ORS]

.20 or .020? Big difference.

[CrespoBlows]

.20 or .020? Big difference.

.020, sorry.

[a700hitter]

So, his OPS is going to spike back up to his '03 levels? No, but it will go back up, so how will that square with the theory of decline?


Here's my prediction, Youkilis will be within .20 points of Helton's road OPS.It's a bet. Youklis' road OPS v. Helton's road OPS and I'll spot you 20 points.

[riverside sluggers]

Getting back to the topic of the thread at hand.

Julian Tavarez has a couple of good pitches with movement that allow him to get ground balls. If he's able to do this as he was somewhat last September he should be less than terrible which is what the Sox need.

Usually guys with sinkers pitch on feel. They need to pitch a lot to pitch well and Tavarez hasn't pitched on regular rest yet.

I think that Tavarez at least needs a few starts on regular rest before fans start to scream for his head. I know that Sox fans aren't the most patient in the world, but sheesh give the guy a few starts on regular rest before calling for his head.

Sox fans arent just looking at 1 start... we're also looking at countless times he pitched last year where he didnt keep the team in the game. He walked a crazy ammount of batters too, 44 in 98.2 innings pitched (1.56 WHP) and gave up 110 hits in that span (opposing .293 avg). So far this year he's walked 5 in 4 innings (2.75 WHP) and 6 hits (opposing .333 avg)

Be my guest if you are encouraged to see him make these starts in April:
Angels
Blue Jays
Blue jays
Yankees

[CrespoBlows]

It's a bet. Youklis' road OPS v. Helton's road OPS and I'll spot you 20 points.

Oh, and if they're both under .800, we both lose.

[a700hitter]

.020, sorry.Are we on?

[CrespoBlows]

Are we on?

Yep, but see the post above yours.

[a700hitter]

Oh, and if they're both under .800, we both lose.I let you name the bet, and now you want to qualify? Okay. I agree. Anything else?

[CrespoBlows]

I let you name the bet, and now you want to qualify? Okay. I agree. Anything else?

Nope.

[ORS]

Since we are veering a bit back on course, I just don't see any room for optimism re: Tavarez. Sure, the guy has some good movement pitches that can induce the GB, but he doesn't have command of them. He is a free pass machine lately, and let's not even get into his makeup. The guy loses his grip on the situation in a flash. The worst thing in the world that could happen is if Tavarez goes out and produces a quality start his next time out because that means the JT Experiment will last longer.

[a700hitter]

Since we are veering a bit back on course, I just don't see any room for optimism re: Tavarez. Sure, the guy has some good movement pitches that can induce the GB, but he doesn't have command of them. He is a free pass machine lately, and let's not even get into his makeup. The guy loses his grip on the situation in a flash. The worst thing in the world that could happen is if Tavarez goes out and produces a quality start his next time out because that means the JT Experiment will last longer.I know that you would like to see Hansack get a chance, and I am not saying that he will not be better than JT, but I am not comfortable with starting the game of musical chairs for the 5th spot in the rotation this early in the year. I fear that if we don't get a legit starter to hold down the spot, that we will head down last year's road where we ended up playing musical chairs with 2 spots by August. We do have two 40 year olds in the rotation. It's not out of the question, that one of them goes down.

[TheKilo]

<Crespo and Plump3

[a700hitter]

Helton>every red sox hitter except Manny and Ortiz

[TheKilo]

Helton>every red sox hitter except Manny and Ortiz

Drew > Helton

[jacksonianmarch]

Drew > Helton

wow, um, no. Helton is at least good for a near full season of baseball.

[CrespoBlows]

wow, um, no. Helton is at least good for a near full season of baseball.

I assume, he means when he's healthy.

[jacksonianmarch]

I assume, he means when he's healthy.

health is a big part of it, though.

[TheKilo]

health is a big part of it, though.

Fair point, but now you can't rely on Helton to be healthy either.

[jacksonianmarch]

Fair point, but now you can't rely on Helton to be healthy either.

but Helton takes the field, even when he is hurt. Last yr his games were down, but he toughed it out. Drew has a reputation of not toughing out minor injuries. This is a character flaw more than anything and a big reason why Heltons production goes a ways further than Drew's does.

[a700hitter]

but Helton takes the field, even when he is hurt. Last yr his games were down, but he toughed it out. Drew has a reputation of not toughing out minor injuries. This is a character flaw more than anything and a big reason why Heltons production goes a ways further than Drew's does.Great points. Not counting the first year -a partial one for both of them, Drew has averaged 118 games/yr while Helton has averaged 154 games/yr. As these other guys have been telling me, look at the stats. Helton>Drew.

[CrespoBlows]

but Helton takes the field, even when he is hurt. Last yr his games were down, but he toughed it out. Drew has a reputation of not toughing out minor injuries. This is a character flaw more than anything and a big reason why Heltons production goes a ways further than Drew's does.

Maybe he should have sat out, because his performance suffered.

If were using Games Played as a barometer of talent, then my guy wins, easily.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierrju01.shtml

Pierre > Helton, Drew, Manny, Ortiz, any baseball player who didn't play in 162 games.

[a700hitter]

Maybe he should have sat out, because his performance suffered.

If were using Games Played as a barometer of talent, then my guy wins, easily.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierrju01.shtml

Pierre > Helton, Drew, Manny, Ortiz, any baseball player who didn't play in 162 games.
That's just silly. If you don't see the differnce between a player that misses one-third of his team's games ea?h year and a player that plays 95 percent of his team's games, then there isn't much to say. Who knows, maybe one day a pinch hitter will win the MVP.

[CrespoBlows]

That's just silly. If you don't see the differnce between a player that misses one-third of his team's games ea&#231;h year and a player that plays 95 percent of his team's games, then there isn't much to say. Who knows, maybe one day a pinch hitter will win the MVP.

No shit?

It is, like your argument, foolish.

If you had any statistical insight to why Helton was better than Drew, I'd listen, but for now, I'll match you crap for crap.

[Plumpamania]

No shit?

It is, like your argument, foolish.

If you had any statistical insight to why Helton was better than Drew, I'd listen, but for now, I'll match you crap for crap.

That didn't include career stats, or anything after 2003.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

On a side note away from Helton, Drew, etc....


Devern Hansack had another great game.
5 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 10 K

Get rid of Julian Tavarez and give this guy a shot.

[ORS]

On a side note away from Helton, Drew, etc....


Devern Hansack had another great game.
5 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 10 K

Get rid of Julian Tavarez and give this guy a shot.
Is that two straight 5IP/10K performances? Gotta love that spiffy 18 K/9.

I agree. I thought he should have been the 5th starter out of the gate.

[a700hitter]

No shit?

It is, like your argument, foolish.

If you had any statistical insight to why Helton was better than Drew, I'd listen, but for now, I'll match you crap for crap.When it comes to crap, you are more than my match.

[CrespoBlows]

When it comes to crap, you are more than my match.

Oh, that's right. Could you fill me in to your great points you made in this thread?

[jacksonianmarch]

POPCORN!!!

[a700hitter]

Oh, that's right. Could you fill me in to your great points you made in this thread?Please take your meds and stop being so angry.

[jacksonianmarch]

Please take your meds and stop being so angry.

And now, are you ready to meet our fighters today in this welterweight fight.

In this corner, the QVC division champion, a700hitter!!!

And the challenger, CrespoBlows!!!

ARE YOU READDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TO HIJACK A THREAD!!!!

[a700hitter]

ARE YOU READDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TO HIJACK A THREAD!!!!I think we did that a couple of days ago, and for my part in it I apologize.

[CrespoBlows]

Please take your meds and stop being so angry.


When it comes to crap, you are more than my match.

Please stop being a hypocrite, and I will refrain from being angry.

[a700hitter]

Please stop being a hypocrite, and I will refrain from being angry....a hypocrite? Interesting. Please bore us all with this angry theory.

[CrespoBlows]

...a hypocrite? Interesting. Please bore us all with this angry theory.

Interesting.

You have exact data staring you in the face, yet you continue to deny it. Why is that? Helton, the "crap" comment, this one:


Well even the blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.

I mean, it's OK, when you throw mud, yet when I do it, I'm angry?

Please enlighten me, why is this?

[a700hitter]

Interesting.

You have exact data staring you in the face, yet you continue to deny it. Why is that? Helton, the "crap" comment, this one:



I mean, it's OK, when you throw mud, yet when I do it, I'm angry?

Please enlighten me, why is this?The blind squirrel remark was tongue in cheek and it was followed by an acknowledgment of a valid point made by you. Boy, that really must have gotten under your skin. You'll need to grow a thicker one. It's not worth getting angry.

[jacksonianmarch]

BTW, do you guys know who the active career BA leader is?

Todd Helton, .333 2 points higher than Pujols.

[a700hitter]

BTW, do you guys know who the active career BA leader is?

Todd Helton, .333 2 points higher than Pujols.
He sucks!! He's in a steep, precipitous decline. Lousy singles hitter!! He's an old man. Youk on the upswing and Helton is in decline Who needs him! Too much money! Why would I want to give up Tavarez and Lowell and to nobodies for him!! That's too much!!

[CrespoBlows]

The blind squirrel remark was tongue in cheek and it was followed by an acknowledgment of a valid point made by you. Boy, that really must have gotten under your skin. You'll need to grow a thicker one. It's not worth getting angry.

No, I thought this, along with the "meds" joke was laughably weak. I just found it amusing that you could call your jabs as "tongue in cheek," and mine as anger.

[a700hitter]

No, I thought this, along with the "meds" joke was laughably weak. I just found it amusing that you could call your jabs as "tongue in cheek," and mine as anger.I don't know are you angry. Your tone seems angry, but tone is hard to read on message boards. If you are not angry, I am glad. I am not. I couldn't be bothered to get angry.

[CrespoBlows]

He sucks!! He's in a steep, precipitous decline.

The .200 drop in OPS, the lousy road numbers, the steep drop in power? What other proof do you need?


Lousy singles hitter!!

He is a lousy $17 million dollar single hitter.


He's an old man.

He's 33, and will be 41 when his contract is up. The Red Sox will probably be burdened with a .250 hitter for the last 3 years.


Youk on the upswing

Probably.


Helton is in decline

Absolutely.


Who needs him!

For six million I'd take him, for $16 million, he can stay in Colorado


Why would I want to give up Tavarez and Lowell and to nobodies for him!! That's too much!!

Tavarez, Lowell, Delcarmen, and $65 million dollars. I'd make a deal with Colorado.

[a700hitter]

Thank you for agreeing with me. There's no way I want this guy.

[mar_022]

Back on the topic of 5th starter...Devern has been tearing up AAA so far in two starts. 10 2/3 IP, 6 h, 3 BB, 20 K, 1 ER, .158 oppAVG

There's no way he could be worse than Julian in the 5 spot

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Back on the topic of 5th starter...Devern has been tearing up AAA so far in two starts. 10 2/3 IP, 6 h, 3 BB, 20 K, 1 ER, .158 oppAVG

There's no way he could be worse than Julian in the 5 spot

I completely agree and before someone says "its triple-A".....Julian Tavarez couldn't post those numbers in triple-A. One more bad start from Tavarez and I bet you see the Red Sox make a move. This team is too good to have a lousy starter in the rotation when there are other options.

[MANNYHOF24]

20K's in 10 and 2/3. That's damn good at any level.

[riverside sluggers]

Hansack now has 2 straight starts of 10 Ks? Damn lets get this train rolling

[jacksonianmarch]

but Tavarez is so good, I mean he was awesome at the end of last yr /sarcasm

[EvilDonut]

I completely agree and before someone says "its triple-A".....Julian Tavarez couldn't post those numbers in triple-A. One more bad start from Tavarez and I bet you see the Red Sox make a move. This team is too good to have a lousy starter in the rotation when there are other options.

To bad the next bad start gets to be Patriots Day.

[ORS]

They really ought to skip him after the rainout.

[jacksonianmarch]

I made a post about the rotation. They arent skipping him per se, they are moving him back to Monday. Instead of moving DMats up, he is being pushed back to Tuesday which would be his normal, Japanese rest.

[adam123]

I think hansack is just what the rotation needs he seems to be better than hansen and mdc
where did he come from over here in vegas its hard to hear about the sox

[jacksonianmarch]

He's from Nicaragua.

[Papelbon58]

Yeah, there was a great ESPN.com feature on him and the town he grew up in.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2762971

[ryanromine]

It just baffles my mind to no extent how Tavarez is a #5 starter. I mean we all saw how the end of last year went and not to mention 2004 when he was with the Cards. This guy literally doesn't have a clue when he is out on the mound. I'd say it's time to call up Hansack! He is, like everyone on has been saying, tearing up the minor, thus far. Send Tavarez to the MINORS!!!

[ORS]

Send Tavarez to the MINORS!!!
You know they can't, right?

[ryanromine]

Ok, but for Christ's sake a starter. I understand that it's still early in the year, but come on this guy sucks bad!

[ryanromine]

We'll see how is next start on Thursday goes! He's going up against Halladay ! Even though Halladay is 8-7 with a 4.60 ERA in 27 appearances against the Sox! Maybe Tavarez can pull a win out of his hat!

[TheKilo]

We'll see how is next start on Thursday goes! He's going up against Halladay ! Even though Halladay is 8-7 with a 4.60 ERA in 27 appearances against the Sox! Maybe Tavarez can pull a win out of his hat!

Yeah! Maybe we should see what Tavarez can do as a starter for more than one game! He threw a complete game against the Jays last year! Purple monkey dishwasher!

[ryanromine]

Yeah! Maybe we should see what Tavarez can do as a starter for more than one game! He threw a complete game against the Jays last year! Purple monkey dishwasher!

It's True!

[schillingouttheks]

LOL :lol: