Rate Your Top 10 Sox Prospects

[Zenny]

Mine:

1. Hanley Ramirez
2. Brandon Moss
3. Jon Papelbon
4. Abe Alvarez
5. Kelly Shoppach
6. Dustin Pedroia
7. Manny Delcarmen
8. Jon Lester
9. Juan Cedeno
10. Jeremy West

[CrespoBlows]

Mine

1. Hanley Ramirez
2. Brandon Moss
3. Abe Alvarez
4. Kelly Shoppach
5. Jon Papelpon
6. Dustin Pedreria
7. Jeremy West
8. Anibel Sanchez
9. Jon Lester
10. Manny Declarman

[yeszir]

I dont think I know enough about the system, so I'll avoid embarassing myself and trying to rank them thank you very much. :D

[YanksHater213]

Mine are...

1. Hanley Ramirez
2. Brandon Moss
3. Jon Papelbon
4. Abe Alvarez
5. Kelly Shoppach
6. Dustin Pedroia
7. Manny Delcarmen
8. Jon Lester
9. Juan Cedeno
10. Jeremy West

thanks Zenny :lol:

[schillingouttheks]

lol, i agree with yeszir and yankshater on this one...

[empirestrikesback26]

I guess the jeremy west sucks.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 11 2004, 03:15 PM
I guess the jeremy west sucks.
What makes you say that? By the way, he's better than both Navarro and Cano.

Crespo, I was thinking of putting Sanchez on there, but I want to see more consistent off-speed from him. 90% of what he threw was his mid-90's heat. Granted, he has a fantastic fastball with outstanding control, but that's really all it takes to be good in the low minors. He's going to need more, but I'm confident he can get there.

[CrespoBlows]

What do you think about Hottvoy? He seems to be a good young lefty, who throws a pretty good curveball.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by CrespoBlows@Sep 11 2004, 03:26 PM
What do you think about Hottvoy? He seems to be a good young lefty, who throws a pretty good curveball.
See Alvarez, Abe. They are damn near identical pitchers, but Hottovy has less mileage on his arm, being that he was a reliever at Witchita State. Although, the current Sox ownership does an oustanding job at keeping their pitcher healthy (much of Manny D.'s arm issues come from prior ownership and high school, same deal with Lester), so Abe's arm should never become a problem.

[empirestrikesback26]

Originally posted by Zenny+Sep 11 2004, 03:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zenny @ Sep 11 2004, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-empirestrikesback26@Sep 11 2004, 03:15 PM
I guess the jeremy west sucks.
What makes you say that? By the way, he&#39;s better than both Navarro and Cano.

Crespo, I was thinking of putting Sanchez on there, but I want to see more consistent off-speed from him. 90% of what he threw was his mid-90&#39;s heat. Granted, he has a fantastic fastball with outstanding control, but that&#39;s really all it takes to be good in the low minors. He&#39;s going to need more, but I&#39;m confident he can get there. [/b][/quote]
he was lower on the list on most peoples, by the way maybe navvaro, not cano. Cano beat everyone there except the first 3.

[CrespoBlows]

R.Cano .259 .403 61 216 22 56 87 9 2 6 30 18 27 0 1 4 :huh:

[Zenny]

Every player listed is ahead of Cano and far ahead of Navarro.

[CrespoBlows]

Boston had 7 players on All minor league teams&#33;

1. Shoppach
2. Hyzdu
3. Snyder
4. Papelbon
5. West
6. Moss
7. Sanchez

[Zenny]

Snyder and Hyzdu are no longer prospects (and have a good chance at not being in the organization next season), but the rest are very good prospects.

In addition to that, Moss was the SAL MVP and hit well over .400 in his time in the FSL.

Papelbon was also the FSL&#39;s best pitcher and was #1 or #2 in every statistical pitching category except for IP and that is an organziational influence to keep him healthy.

Shoppach was the IL&#39;s best catcher and was one of the top 10 or so power hitters as well.

Sanchez lead the NY/Penn League in ERA, WHIP and K&#39;s.

West showed good power, but was streaky and left something to be desired in the OBP and defense.

[CrespoBlows]

The Yankees had 2 :thumbsup:

[empirestrikesback26]

The yankees don&#39;t need prospects. Cano is all they need.

[CrespoBlows]

And he&#39;ll be a great 2nd baseman&#33; :blink: <_<

[empirestrikesback26]

I hope you aren&#39;t being sarcastic because I think he will be, just not for the yanks probably.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 13 2004, 04:10 PM
I hope you aren&#39;t being sarcastic because I think he will be, just not for the yanks probably.
Umm... what exactly does he do? He doesn&#39;t hit for power, he doesn&#39;t hit for average, he doesn&#39;t walk, he doesn&#39;t run and he&#39;s worse than Alfonso Soriano on defense. Please explain to me where his magical abilities are going to come from.

[empirestrikesback26]

slap hitter, extrmely fast, great defense. ***ichiro***

[CrespoBlows]

He doesn&#39;t hit, and he isn&#39;t fast. He and Navaro are considered psuedo-prospects meaning their not that good, just overrated.

[empirestrikesback26]

He is fast. Ive seen him play. Faster than kaz matsui.

[CrespoBlows]

Ok he&#39;s fast. Wait so is Randy Moss, does that make him a good baseball player? NO&#33; Cano can&#39;t do anything good.

[empirestrikesback26]

hey if randy wanted to, he probably colud. Primetime is example. Anyway he&#39;s a good slap hitter. No power though. He made the world team for crying out loud&#33;

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 13 2004, 07:39 PM
hey if randy wanted to, he probably colud. Primetime is example. Anyway he&#39;s a good slap hitter. No power though. He made the world team for crying out loud&#33;
Juan Perez made it too and he sucks. I have a lot of issues with a lot of the guys on the World and US teams. Those games are always just a lot of hype with a little substance. Hell, Baseball America picks the teams and they can be a very sketchy hype-machine in their own right.

[empirestrikesback26]

how many playa in the sox farms got picked?

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 13 2004, 08:02 PM
how many playa in the sox farms got picked?
Only Perez, because the Sox system gets no credit. I swear, the Futures Game is all hype. Kelly Shoppach should have been there over Koyie Hill, Hanley over Andres Blanco and Juan Cedeno over Perez, the other Sox choice. They are all much better prospects than the others listed.

[empirestrikesback26]

Originally posted by Zenny+Sep 13 2004, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zenny @ Sep 13 2004, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-empirestrikesback26@Sep 13 2004, 08:02 PM
how many playa in the sox farms got picked?
Only Perez, because the Sox system gets no credit. I swear, the Futures Game is all hype. Kelly Shoppach should have been there over Koyie Hill, Hanley over Andres Blanco and Juan Cedeno over Perez, the other Sox choice. They are all much better prospects than the others listed. [/b][/quote]
Please, spare me. Sox get no credit? Navarro should have been there too.

[CrespoBlows]

What excatly does Navarro do? He can&#39;t play defense, and can&#39;t hit. The Yankee farm system has nothing in it. They have no pitching at all.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 13 2004, 08:24 PM
Please, spare me. Sox get no credit? Navarro should have been there too.
You honestly do have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

[empirestrikesback26]

I&#39;m putting it all in perspective. Navarro shouldn&#39;t be there, yet all the sox players who aren&#39;t better should?

[Zenny]

Yeah, Navarro is so much better than Shoppach. I mean, Navarro only hit 18 fewer homeruns, with 3 of his 4 homers coming at AA. What am I thinking? Hanley Ramirez only slugged 150 points higher at the same level in similar time. Am I nuts? Of course Navarro is God.

[empirestrikesback26]

Originally posted by Zenny@Sep 13 2004, 09:43 PM
Yeah, Navarro is so much better than Shoppach. I mean, Navarro only hit 18 fewer homeruns, with 3 of his 4 homers coming at AA. What am I thinking? Hanley Ramirez only slugged 150 points higher at the same level in similar time. Am I nuts? Of course Navarro is God.
Oh man don&#39;t you look stupid. Navarros first AB, RBI single. I will hear no more.

[CrespoBlows]

Bravo <_<

[CrespoBlows]

Youkillis homered in his first abat beat that&#33;

[CrespoBlows]

Another tidbit Alan Zinter hit a single in his first abat. Is he a star? What is your point, he had a hit in an abat, don&#39;t they all?

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 13 2004, 11:44 PM
Oh man don&#39;t you look stupid. Navarros first AB, RBI single. I will hear no more.
That is the most retarded analysis I have ever heard. Duh, he&#39;s going to hit some, it&#39;s not like he&#39;s not going to get a hit all season. He&#39;s just not competent enough to hit a lot. He&#39;s also not enough of a defender to justify keeping the guy around on a roster.

[empirestrikesback26]

ok and youkillis is a hell of player I&#39;ll admit it, so is navarro.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 14 2004, 10:23 PM
ok and youkillis is a hell of player I&#39;ll admit it, so is navarro.
No, I will not admit to a lie. Dioner Navarro is not a hell of a player. He had a .676 OPS in AAA and a .723 in AA. He had 4 combined homeruns. His slugging percentage was a measly .365. He wouldn&#39;t even be David Eckstein at the big league level. DIONER NAVARRO IS NOT GOOD. I DON&#39;T KNOW HOW TO TELL YOU ANY OTHER WAY&#33;

[empirestrikesback26]

maybe before yesterdays at bat, i would agree. I don&#39;t care what you say about him anymore, he made up my mind for me.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by empirestrikesback26@Sep 14 2004, 10:45 PM
maybe before yesterdays at bat, i would agree. I don&#39;t care what you say about him anymore, he made up my mind for me.
So, you have no statistics or facts to prove your point, so you&#39;re going to resort to stupidty. By all means, go ahead. What if he goes 0 for his next 1,000,000,000; will you still want him based upon this one at-bat? Besides, that hit came of Chris George and his 8.00+ ERA. I&#39;m impressed.

[empirestrikesback26]

a hits a hit. I&#39;l keep with him until he starts sucking. Right now he has a 1.000 average, last time i checked thats damn good. ;)

[Chitalian Stallion]

1. Hanley Ramirez
2. Abe Alvarez
3. Jon Papelpon
4. Brandon Moss
5. Kelly Shoppach
6. Dustin Pedreria
7. Jon Lester
8. Jeremy West
9. Anibel Sanchez
10. Manny Declarman

[CrespoBlows]

which are your favorite prospects?

[DOrtiz4prez]

Hanley Ramirez is supposed to be like the best shortstop.

I heard he&#39;s gonna be like better than NOMAH.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by CrespoBlows@Nov 1 2004, 06:52 PM
which are your favorite prospects?
Jon Papelbon. Very underrated, especially his pitches.

[2090]

Eric Duncan.... oh, wait he&#39;s a Yankee prospect.

[BoSox Rule]

Originally posted by 2090@Dec 27 2004, 02:50 PM
Eric Duncan.... oh, wait he&#39;s a Yankee prospect.
Yeah, and he hit .258 between Battle Creek and Tampa.

[stevece80]

1. Hanley Ramirez (need I say anything? Consistent power away from being HOF-level talent, needs a full season of production to prove he&#39;s the shit)
2. Jon Lester (young, lefty, good K totals, his pedrigree holds the biggest upside in the system)
3. Manny Delcarmen (first full year back from TJ should be the breakout)
4. Brandon Moss (needs to develop more power, but 2004 is hard to ignore)
5. Anibal Sanchez (hey, I can dream)
6. Mickey Hall (can&#39;t not love the raw power at his age)
7. Jon Papelbon (a bit old, with a young arm, if he&#39;s not in Boston by Sept., he&#39;s MR fodder)
8. Abe Alvarez (will be an MLB starter, ceiling is a number 4, though)
9. Luis Soto (Hanley part II?)
10. Christian Lara (SS, MLB eye)

Honorable mention aka put up or shut up:

Kelly Shoppach
David Murphy

Dustin Pedroia will be a MLB regular, likely, but he&#39;s Jody Reed at this point. If there&#39;s a top ten future major leaguers list, Alvarez and Pedroia are likely right at the top of the list.

If Shoppach&#39;s plate approach in 2004 was an aberration, then he immediately shoots to the top half of the list on the basis of his power alone. I&#39;m still willing to give Murphy some benefit of the doubt, though if there&#39;s no progression in 2005, then by 2006 it&#39;s bustville. Why Mickey Hall so high? Why, because he&#39;s going to tear up high-A in 2005, that&#39;s why.

[BoSox Rule]

Pedroia is my favorite prospect, but Hanley&#39;s the best.

[Zenny]

Originally posted by HumungousErection@Dec 28 2004, 12:04 AM
6. Mickey Hall (can&#39;t not love the raw power at his age)
I agree. I think Hall has great upside, but I want to see him put it all together first before I&#39;d rank him that high on the list. If this was purely an upside list, he&#39;d be close to the top. If it was about greatest chance to reach potential, he&#39;d be way at the bottom.

Also, why do you think Papelbon would be MR fodder if not in Boston by September? So what if he&#39;s going to be 24 at AA next year, that&#39;s not really all that awful. A guy who K&#39;s that many, BB&#39;s that few, allows minimal amounts of homeruns and has had no past arm trouble with the great stuff he has should be a lot more than just "MR fodder". If he continues on his current career path, he&#39;s Curt Schilling without the early career control crisis.

[stevece80]

If this was purely an upside list, he&#39;d be close to the top. If it was about greatest chance to reach potential, he&#39;d be way at the bottom.

Well, I&#39;d say being a good prospect typically has to do with the amount of upside you possess, so I made my list based on the potential I viewed each player to have.



Also, why do you think Papelbon would be MR fodder if not in Boston by September? So what if he&#39;s going to be 24 at AA next year, that&#39;s not really all that awful. A guy who K&#39;s that many, BB&#39;s that few, allows minimal amounts of homeruns and has had no past arm trouble with the great stuff he has should be a lot more than just "MR fodder". If he continues on his current career path, he&#39;s Curt Schilling without the early career control crisis.


Papelbon isn&#39;t Schilling. I&#39;d say his upside would maybe be Kevin Millwood. He&#39;s 24 now, and eventually he&#39;s going to have to make huge strides to really vault himself to top prospect status. Furthermore, Schilling was an MLB regular by age 23, so beyond saying he&#39;s a future HOFer with better control, I think it&#39;s a bit disingenous to just assume Papelbon is even a lock to pitch more than a handful of above average innings in the majors based on dominating kids 2-3 years younger than him.

I just think if he&#39;s taking baby steps next year at AA, his upside is a decent reliever, if anything. Just being good again next season, with all due respect to the fact he started pitching late, doesn&#39;t mean he&#39;s anything better than a Marcus Thames, Josh Hancock or John Hattig level prospect. As of now, he&#39;s either learned how to pitch, or he hasn&#39;t. His build and his lack of mileage on his arm only means he&#39;ll likely be more durable than the average pitcher in the future. There&#39;s plenty of durable long relievers out there.

I just think it&#39;s time to bust out for him, or time to temper the hype surrounding him. It&#39;s nice that he started pitching late, but that&#39;s no excuse for him not getting a cup of coffee next season based on his advancement as a pitcher. Rafael Soriano and Victor Zambrano both started pitching at a later age than Papelbon, and both were pitching well in the majors at age 25 or younger. It doesn&#39;t take 10 years to refine your stuff enough to fool MLB hitters. Either you do, or you likely never will.

[YanksHater213]

Oh man... looks like Zenny has some stiff competition&#33;

[schillingouttheks]

i was thinking the same thing...

[CalvnHobs6]

Holy crap&#33; One of our new members in the past month is a smart poster&#33;&#33;&#33; We&#39;re one for 20&#33;&#33;&#33;

[schillingouttheks]

LOL :lol: ... goin in my sig.

[CalvnHobs6]

Oh man, I have two quotes in sigs now, gosh am I popular or what?
I&#39;d lean towards what.

[Zenny]

Well, I&#39;d say being a good prospect typically has to do with the amount of upside you possess, so I made my list based on the potential I viewed each player to have.
It&#39;s not all about upside. Reggie Abercrombie has some of the best tools in the minors in the Dodgers system and he has the potential to be Carlos Beltran... if he puts it all together. The chance of Reggie Abercrombie becoming Carlos Beltran? 0.01%. You can&#39;t rate a player purely on what he could be, but also what he has done to put it all together. That&#39;s why I want to see more from Hall before I can consider him that high on the list.


It doesn&#39;t take 10 years to refine your stuff enough to fool MLB hitters. Either you do, or you likely never will.
First off, I just want to say welcome and it&#39;s nice to have someone to talk prospects with who knows more than average.

I want to address the above statement I quoted from you. That&#39;s the basis of my argument for Papelbon. His stuff is really very good. Forget the age and forget the performance (I know it&#39;s not really smart to do that, but bear with me here for a minute) and think about the caliber of pitches he possesses.

To quote Greg Maddux (indirectly) a pitcher is 4 things: velocity, control, movement and knowledge of how to pitch. The first three can only be indirectly measured in statistics and need to be looked at via scouting reports. By all accounts, he has the first three in spades. He consistently throws in the mid-90&#39;s and counters that with two very good and one slightly above average offspeed pitches. That takes care of velocity. Baseball America said that Papelbon has the best slider in the Sox system. Granted, it&#39;s a weak system to be judging sliders on, but by all scouting reports he has very good movement on it. Add to that a very good slurve and a solid changeup, both with good movement, and he has the movement aspect covered. As far as control goes, this is probably the area he needs to work most on. He can throw all four pitches for strikes rather consistently, but he did have 40+ walks in 130 IP last year. Good, but room for improvement. In my mind, and the minds of many others, pitchability is measured in the stats a pitcher produces based upon the stuff the pitcher has. Papelbon knows how to pitch looking at what he did last year.

Yes, he was a little bit older than the field (by 1 or 2 years, not 2 or 3), but considering how late his start was as a pitcher, you can put him on the same plane as the rest. Also, Papelbon should&#39;ve been brought up to Portland midway through last year, but they wanted him to hone his offspeed stuff with Coach Nip in Sarasota last season and wait the extra year to put him on the fast track. Next year, he should spend half the season in Portland, the other half in Pawtucket and September in Boston.

[Noah]

The Red Sox have Hanley Ramirez (SS) and Kelly Shoppach (C) - that's about it.

[Zenny]

The Red Sox have Hanley Ramirez (SS) and Kelly Shoppach (C) - that's about it.
If by "about it" you mean "they have a lot more that I don't know about or give them credit for" then I agree.

[Gertie]

Noah's a Mets fan. Silly Mets fans.

[CrespoBlows]

Did I just read Papelbon as a decent reliever? I just saw this.

He's got a fastball that is reguarly thrown in the mid 90's, has an outstanding slider, and changeup. Plus he's also got a good slurveball. He'll be a good frontline starter for the Sox in the near future.

I've also seen this fucker play, god damn he throws some gas. I was sitting in the GA of Ed Smith, and I could hear the pop of the catcher's mitt 300 feet away

[Zenny]

I'm with you here, Crespo. Despite the age, Papelbon has a lot of upside.

[Zenny]

Here's what Jim Callis has to say about Papelbon, who he ranked #3 in the Sox system behind Hanley and Moss.


On the three pitchers *he was answering a question regarding Papelbon vs. Lester vs. Rozier*, all three have the stuff to become frontline starters if everything works out for them (though it rarely goes that perfectly for anyone). You'd be splitting hairs there, but if I had to pick, I'd go with Papelbon.

Q: Chris from New Haven, CT asks:
Jon Papelbon was ranked high on the Sox's list despite being a bit on the old side for the FSL this year. Is he considered to have more upside than most 23 year old righties because of his limited pitching experience or do the other Sox's pitching prospects just not project out very well, despite their younger ages?

A: Jim Callis: He was 23 (because he signed in 2003 as a redshirt junior after four years in college), but he also did very well in high Class A in his first full pro season, so I think that mitigates his age. His ranking is based on him showing three plus pitches in the second half of the season, and not a lack of projection on the part of guys like Lester, Sanchez, Delcarmen and Rozier, all of whom have high ceilings.

Looks like Steve got his Mickey Hall question in as well:

Q: Steve from Chestnut Hill, MA asks:
Hi Jim, can you comment on how Mickey Hall is progressing? He seemed to have a solid second half after a slow start but is still one of the better OF prospects in the sytem.

A: Jim Callis: Steve, you just synopsized Hall very well. All of what you said is true, and he's advanced hitter for his age. A .769 OPS in low A as a 19-year-old in his first full season is a solid year. He's one of the better athletes and has one of the best swings in the organization.

EDIT: Callis also said that he'd put Hanley, Moss and Papelbon on his top 100 list.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/chat/041110jc.html

[stevece80]

craoooop

[YanksHater213]

I've also seen this fucker play, god damn he throws some gas.
Hahahahahaha... thats probably the most unnecessary 'fucker' ever, thats why its so funny.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'm really late with this but here it is.....and this is MY opinion

1. Jon Lester (still trying to learn about this kid)
2. Hanley Ramirez
3. Craig Hanson (when he signs)
4. Jon Papelbon
5. Dustin Pedroia
6. Anibal Sanchez
7. Manny Delcarmen
8. Brandon Moss
9. Mike Rozier (longshot)
10. Jacoby Ellsbury

I also like Cla Meredith....just dont push him too fast