Catch-All Trade Deadline Speculation Thread

[example1]

I didn't see one, not sure if this is the right spot, but anyway...


The trade deadling is approaching. I get the sense from many on this board that they see this team as pretty flawed underneith the glossy exterior. There are injury concerns (guys like Schilling and Crisp) and performance concerns (Lugo, Drew and a little less with Crisp). There are more subtle performance concerns about Ortiz and Manny, and underlying injury concerns/fears about guys like Beckett and Lowell.

Anyway, where should this team look to improve? What can they use to do that?

Things to consider:

--Compared to nearly every other year previously, it makes a lot of sense for Theo to explore trading Manny. His production is down, to the point where I can conceive of a reasonable exchange; when he hits like Willie Mays that isn't possible. What they really need is someone to add to manny, but there are other options as well.

--The sox have 3 legitimate near-ace potential SP prospects in Lester, Buchholz and Bowden. In the past the Sox have said they would not trade Lester, but I think Buchholz has secured that spot now. I'm starting to wonder if Lester will be able to come up at all this season--as many have said previously, it is natural to expect him to need a year to get fully healthy so he can compete for 162 games. Other teams would know this, so his value would be reduced if that is the case. That leaves Bowden as the top level pitching prospect, but he's still 2-3 years away and would need to be the 2nd biggest part of a serious move.

--Reasonable trading chips: Lowell, Crisp, WMP, Hansen, Delcarmen, Hinske, Tavarez, Ellsbury

This team still wants to upgrade offensively in at least one position.

[jacksonianmarch]

You have one ace ceiling prospect and 2 mid rotation ceiling guys at this point.

[riverside sluggers]

--Reasonable trading chips: Lowell, Crisp, WMP, Hansen, Delcarmen, Hinske, Tavarez, Ellsbury

This team still wants to upgrade offensively in at least one position.

Also dont forget Murphy and Moss. Both are capable of being looked at for possible starting roles on other teams, especially Moss

[ksushi]

I think Lester is a little better than a future 3-4 guy. I think he probably projects more as a 2 than a 3.

[CrespoBlows]

Eric Gagne.

Oh, we got Joel, instead. Another fantastic move, Theo.

[ksushi]

Um... Gagne made it clear he wanted to sign as a closer... I don't think Joel was signed because we didn't wanna pay for Gagne.

I think I kinda rather have that guy Theo drafted close, whats his name? Papel-something... Well whatever.

[CrespoBlows]

Um... Gagne made it clear he wanted to sign as a closer... I don't think Joel was signed because we didn't wanna pay for Gagne.

Umm.... we kinda signed Pinerio to be the closer at the time of the signing. Oh, he signed for $2 million less, which would not have vaulted the Red Sox over the luxury tax.

Seriously, get your facts straight.



I think I kinda rather have that guy Theo drafted close, whats his name? Papel-something... Well whatever.

We could have had Papelbon as a starter, and Gagne as the closer. That team would be weaker?

[Rdsxmbnt]

FWIW: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4935349.html


If the Astros approached Oswalt about waving his no-trade clause, he'd at least listen if, say, the Boston Red Sox, St. Louis Cardinals or Atlanta Braves wanted him. To be clear, though, he would never request a trade.

"If they came to me and they thought it was better for the future of the organization if they traded me, I'd do whatever's best for the future of the team," said Oswalt. "The key is if that's what the organization wants and thinks is best for the team to get better."

[example1]

You have one ace ceiling prospect and 2 mid rotation ceiling guys at this point.

I disagree. Where would an in-his-prime Lester or Bowden fit on the Nationals, Cardinals, D-Rays, Royals, Rangers, etc.,? My guess is they could be aces or at least a solid #2. It is one thing to talk about an 'ace' on a perennial contender that has talent like Beckett or Matsuzaka, vs. one that has talent like Gil Meche. It is all relative.

[example1]

I put Ellsbury in my 'reasonable to be traded' section.

It may be reasonable, but it seems highly unlikely. Whether he likes the move in retrospect, we all know that Theo wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the Josh Beckett deal had he been the GM and not wearing a gorilla suit. That move worked out okay for both sides, but with the troubles at SS we can see why Theo may have been attached to Hanley.

Anyway, I make the comparison because Ellsbury is a multi-tool player in a high defensive-spectrum position (CF) who is owned for 6 years and is cheap as hell. He is valuable as a trade piece. Would the Sox have brought up Ellsbury if they were planning on moving him, or trying very hard to move him for the right return? I guess I don't think so.

They brought him up as more than a CF replacement, because we know that WMP can play CF as can Drew (though perhaps less skillfully with his nagging leg problems this season). Should we expect murphy back up as soon as he is able, or is this an introduction to and sign of confidence in, Ellsbury as this team's CF of the future? Crisp could be on the move, at least by next year, and Ellsbury may get the Pedroia treatment: Jacoby Ellsbury will be the starting CF for our team when spring training opens despite not much experience in the 'bigs.

It is just a very curious move to bring him up at this point. I support it, but I am also trying to read something into it in terms of how it affects their trade picture. The two cannot be unrelated.

[BSN07]

Need to look for a BP arm. If someone is willing to take Coco's contract and we can get a respectable player or two back for him then trade him. Same goes for WMP. I know Ellsbury has only played a few games, and I would rather he be more polished and spend more time in AAA, the fact is he has blazing speed, good D and good contact in hitting. He can be the CF and split time with either Crisp/WMP( trade the other), and come off the bench late as a PR and be a real asset to this team.

Id like to see them add and experienced SP, but there not a whole lot available that won't cost you an arm and leg. Maybe Lester will look better after the AS break.

[ksushi]

If you want Ellsbury to become more polished you don't want him to split time and spend games on the bench, you want him playing everyday and getting regular AB's.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Apparently Salomon Torres wants out of Pittsburgh.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07184/798921-63.stm

I think he could be a decent arm in the pen. Eh?

[redsoxrules]

im not to crazy about him , plus he's having a bad year too

[ksushi]

It would probably cost us more than we are willing to pay for a 5 ERA reliever which is about what you could count on him to be. Delcarmen is a much better option in the 7th inning or as the back up set up guy in the 8th. If he's found himself in the majors, he'll be a great asset.

[a700hitter]

What do you think about Octavio Dotel and Kevin Milwood? Both have been throwing well lately, and they should come cheap. I think they would be upgrades. When Schilling returns, Tavarez could go to the pen further upgrading the pen.

Edit: What about Armando Benitez? He's been throwing over 95 mph regularly recently.

[Cityofchampions33]

FWIW: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4935349.html

yes please

[example1]

yes please

A little Oswalt action? That's what I'm talking about. It likely isn't going to happen, but its nice to think about.

[TheKilo]

What do you think about Octavio Dotel and Kevin Milwood? Both have been throwing well lately, and they should come cheap. I think they would be upgrades. When Schilling returns, Tavarez could go to the pen further upgrading the pen.

Edit: What about Armando Benitez? He's been throwing over 95 mph regularly recently.

Dotel may be worth a look but I'd pass on the other two, personally. Not enough of an upgrade to make losing some talent worth it.

[example1]

Dotel may be worth a look but I'd pass on the other two, personally. Not enough of an upgrade to make losing some talent worth it.

I feel like Dotel falls apart (sometimes literally) when the situation gets tough. Pass.

[Cityofchampions33]

A little Oswalt action? That's what I'm talking about. It likely isn't going to happen, but its nice to think about.
very nice indeed, if i remember correctly we almost had a 3-way deal done for him last year but it didn't happen.

[jacksonianmarch]

A little Oswalt action? That's what I'm talking about. It likely isn't going to happen, but its nice to think about.

Oswalt is signed for another what, 3 or 4 yrs? At WELL below market value for a young ace. Oswalt is going nowhere.

[a700hitter]

What do you think it would take to get Dye? Who would sit if we got him?

[example1]

What do you think it would take to get Dye? Who would sit if we got him?

We wouldn't get him. If it were a bizarro world where we DID get him then Drew would sit, because the FO would have given up on him and be willing to put him on the bench. OR, we would deal Lowell or Youkilis, put Manny in the DH spot and put Ortiz at 1B.

In either case, I imagine they want to look for someone NOT a corner outfielder.

[a700hitter]

We wouldn't get him. If it were a bizarro world where we DID get him then Drew would sit, because the FO would have given up on him and be willing to put him on the bench. OR, we would deal Lowell or Youkilis, put Manny in the DH spot and put Ortiz at 1B.

In either case, I imagine they want to look for someone NOT a corner outfielder.What hitters would they be looking at?

[example1]

What hitters would they be looking at?

I really don't know. They would probably tolerate a move of Lowell or <gulp> Youkilis in order to get a good power/OBP guy in the lineup. I would prefer they move Lowell because Youkilis is a good boston player and has entrenched himself with the fans. Lowell, though great, has always seemed like a rental. I think you and I agree that Todd Helton would be a nice guy to add to the middle of that order. Offer Lester, Ellsbury, WMP and Bowden for Miguel Cabrera? Lowell, Lester, and Hansen for Teixeira? Lester, Hansen, Lugo, Lowrie and cash for Michael Young? :dunno: :lol:


The farm system is deeper in some areas than it has been in the past and the roster is full of players who are signed to long term deals. Given how this team looks when it is healthy that is a very GOOD thing. They are one or two pieces away from being a juggernaught, whereas now they are just a really good team, competitive but not necessarily better than the other best teams in baseball. If they deal from a position of strength they can afford to take a hit to get a big bat.

Of course, it also seems like it is going to be a sellers market this offseason, as there aren't many guys who are just waiting to be traded--particularly with guys like Ichiro and Buehrle resigned.

[jacksonianmarch]

What do you think it would take to get Dye? Who would sit if we got him?

a shmoke and a pancake? Dye should be free to any taker since he is an FA after the yr and has absolutely sucked this season.

[riverside sluggers]

We wouldn't get him. If it were a bizarro world where we DID get him then Drew would sit, because the FO would have given up on him and be willing to put him on the bench. OR, we would deal Lowell or Youkilis, put Manny in the DH spot and put Ortiz at 1B.

In either case, I imagine they want to look for someone NOT a corner outfielder.

Another option would have Dye being the 4th OF

Id rather deal Lowell than Youkilis. Lowell is reaching his mid 30s and will be a free agent, Youkilis is just entering his prime and is in his late 20s. Ugh Ortiz at 1st? Its bad enough he's going to get an MRI done on his knees (per channel 4 boston news)

[example1]

Another option would have Dye being the 4th OF

Id rather deal Lowell than Youkilis. Lowell is reaching his mid 30s and will be a free agent, Youkilis is just entering his prime and is in his late 20s. Ugh Ortiz at 1st? Its bad enough he's going to get an MRI done on his knees (per channel 4 boston news)

I would rather deal Lowell too. Youkilis could be a key component to this offense for years. He epitomizes this lineup and the FO's philosophy.

[a700hitter]

Junior Griffey continues his resurgence. He stole two bases tonight.

[example1]

Jesus. I just don't know what to do with this team. I think they are about a year away from their top prospects being extremely productive and I think that two of them (Ellsbury and Buchholz) will contribute down the stretch. I also think this team appears to be one or two pieces away from something very special. I'm not sure where that piece should be. It feels like it should be in the batting order, but who moves? The only answers I can think of are Crisp and Lowell. Drew is powerless right now, and I can't imagine where the power would come from. His swing seems very on-base-centric, rather than slug-centric.

Just some thoughts:

Should the Sox overpay a team like Atlanta to get Andruw Jones as a short-term rental? Is it worth it when they are in a position to be able to go to the playoffs and potentially win it all? I would think that it is. Jones has had a down year, but he has shown signs of life and would at least be a power threat.

Should the Sox offer some really complex package involving Manny Ramirez, who is both affordable and short term? How about a deal with Texas to bring Teixeira to Boston and send Manny to Texas? Anaheim (plus money) for Brandon Wood--who has been struggling--and Ervin Santana--who has REALLY been struggling?

I don't know, but something needs to happen.

[msubulldogs21]

Just some thoughts:

Should the Sox overpay a team like Atlanta to get Andruw Jones as a short-term rental? Is it worth it when they are in a position to be able to go to the playoffs and potentially win it all? I would think that it is. Jones has had a down year, but he has shown signs of life and would at least be a power threat.

Should the Sox offer some really complex package involving Manny Ramirez, who is both affordable and short term? How about a deal with Texas to bring Teixeira to Boston and send Manny to Texas? Anaheim (plus money) for Brandon Wood--who has been struggling--and Ervin Santana--who has REALLY been struggling?

I don't know, but something needs to happen.

I would definitely not be in favor of aquiring a rent-a-player like Andruw Jones. Although he would supply some power, he's only batting .211 and strikes out way too much. I'm not really a big fan of the whole rent-a-player thing in the first place, but if we did do that I would go after Torii Hunter because I don't see any way Minnesota brings him back next year.

Maybe we could get back in trade talks with Colorado involving Helton/Lowell. Who knows. But you're right, we need to do SOMETHING. It's just hard to figure out what that something is.

[example1]

I would definitely not be in favor of aquiring a rent-a-player like Andruw Jones. Although he would supply some power, he's only batting .211 and strikes out way too much. I'm not really a big fan of the whole rent-a-player thing in the first place, but if we did do that I would go after Torii Hunter because I don't see any way Minnesota brings him back next year.

Maybe we could get back in trade talks with Colorado involving Helton/Lowell. Who knows. But you're right, we need to do SOMETHING. It's just hard to figure out what that something is.

He's on pace for 31 HR and 107 RBI. He's hitting .211, with a decent .312 OBP (decent only because its .100 points higher than his avg.). He will get better, but at that pace he will out-produce Manny.

Youkilis
Pedroia
Ortiz
Manny
Jones
Drew
Lowell
Varitek
Lugo

I don't know... nobody will mind a short-term rental if it helps the Sox win a WS, and I think it is worth noting that short term rentals pushed this team over the top in 04. If we are hoping for a trade to put this team over the top, we may have to settle for a this year solution, particularly if we hope to hold onto our top talent.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox DONT NEED ANOTHER BAT. Their offense isnt amazing like it used to be, but it is more than enough to win. It is the pitching. If Schilling comes back as the shitbag he was before he hit the DL, then the sox rotation is 2 deep going into what could be a dogfight for the division or going into a playoff series. And that wont win. And unfortunately for you guys, Schilling wont be returning until the trading deadline, so Theo MUST prepare as if Schilling will come back shitty. So if you want to overpay, overpay for Buehrle (if available) or another pitcher, because the Gabbard's and Tavarez's of the world will cost you.

[redsoxrules]

The sox DONT NEED ANOTHER BAT. Their offense isnt amazing like it used to be, but it is more than enough to win. It is the pitching. If Schilling comes back as the shitbag he was before he hit the DL, then the sox rotation is 2 deep going into what could be a dogfight for the division or going into a playoff series. And that wont win. And unfortunately for you guys, Schilling wont be returning until the trading deadline, so Theo MUST prepare as if Schilling will come back shitty. So if you want to overpay, overpay for Buehrle (if available) or another pitcher, because the Gabbard's and Tavarez's of the world will cost you.

YES THEY NEED ANOTHER BAT THE SOX OFFENSE ONLY MANAGED 4.1 RUNS A GAME IN JUNE

THE PTICHING HAD A 3.83 ERA IN JUNE AND HAVE 4.02 IN JULY

[example1]

The sox DONT NEED ANOTHER BAT. Their offense isnt amazing like it used to be, but it is more than enough to win. It is the pitching. If Schilling comes back as the shitbag he was before he hit the DL, then the sox rotation is 2 deep going into what could be a dogfight for the division or going into a playoff series. And that wont win. And unfortunately for you guys, Schilling wont be returning until the trading deadline, so Theo MUST prepare as if Schilling will come back shitty. So if you want to overpay, overpay for Buehrle (if available) or another pitcher, because the Gabbard's and Tavarez's of the world will cost you.

Yeah, man, I just don't agree with you here. If you've watched the games--which I'm pretty sure you have--then you will notice that if the sox just came through when they had opportunities they would have a 20 game lead right now. I'm not even kidding about that number. This team has shown the consistent ability to get on base, but time after time they are not driving in the runs. Manny and Ortiz are somewhat responsible--as their drop in HR and RBI cannot be overlooked--but the rest of the lineup is also to blame. If they were to add another bopper--say a Teixeira--then they would immediately score more runs. This team has a tremendous record when scoring five or more runs (I believe) and they would score 5 or more MUCH more often than they are now. They are one guy away from being able to produce close to what the offense has done the past few years.


The more I think about it, the more I feel like the answer to our problems might be Youkilis. His value is quite high right now, as he is defensively versatile and manages to not make outs. He doesn't have tremendous power, but he has a tremendous OBP and plus defense.

Youkilis, Bowden/Lester, Crisp for Teixeira.

If Theo managed to bring Teixeira into this lineup that would be HUGE for the offense the rest of the way. Tex is a gold glove winning 1B, so the loss in defense would be minimal. We all always talk about moving Lowell instead of Youkilis, but we could probably resign Lowell to a decent deal for a couple years (say, 3 years/22m), which would allow us to trade him in the future if someone better comes along, or hold onto him for his solid defense and ability to drive the ball regularly. Lowell certainly isn't a BAD option moving forward, and Teixeira is a definite upgrade over Youkilis (despite how much I like Youk).

A move like that would be extremely bold, possibly bolder than the Nomar move of 04. I can see why the Sox are reportedly in hot pursuit of him. Youkilis is a definite fan favorite and a grinder. Teixeira is a 27 year-old, 2 time silver slugger, 2 time gold glove winning switch hitter. 30 Home Runs should be expected from him, as should a .370 OBP.

Ellsbury
Pedroia
Ortiz
Manny
Teixiera
Drew
Lowell
Varitek
Lugo

Teixiera could be the best option available for offensive punch. If he and Drew both fired on all cylinders this offense could be dangerous.

[a700hitter]

The sox DONT NEED ANOTHER BAT. Their offense isnt amazing like it used to be, but it is more than enough to win. It is the pitching. If Schilling comes back as the shitbag he was before he hit the DL, then the sox rotation is 2 deep going into what could be a dogfight for the division or going into a playoff series. And that wont win. And unfortunately for you guys, Schilling wont be returning until the trading deadline, so Theo MUST prepare as if Schilling will come back shitty. So if you want to overpay, overpay for Buehrle (if available) or another pitcher, because the Gabbard's and Tavarez's of the world will cost you.
I have been saying this all along. Hitting goes into slumps. Even hitting like the Yankees have goes into slumps. Pitching is what wins. Don't be fooled by Gabbard against KC or Wakefields's occoasional good game. Jackson is right. Our starting staff is two pitchers deep, just like last year. Our pen is two pitchers deep which is one more than last year.

[Khan]

Generally, the offense has let the pitching down. If you want to be watching these guys play into Oct. they have got to go get a power bat and improve the bench. Right now the team seams way to complacent, just coasting. I've never been a fan of moving Manny, but maybe there is a way of turning him around for some improved power. I would prefer to see Lugo or Drew go but with those contracts and poor performances, who would have them. Theo has got to do something to provide a spark.

[example1]

I have been saying this all along. Hitting goes into slumps. Even hitting like the Yankees have goes into slumps. Pitching is what wins. Don't be fooled by Gabbard against KC or Wakefields's occoasional good game. Jackson is right. Our starting staff is two pitchers deep, just like last year. Our pen is two pitchers deep which is one more than last year.

The question, as always, is who is available that would be certain to make an impact. I think Schilling is as good or better in a stretch drive than anyone who is available. If the offense were regularly putting up 6 to 9 runs then pitchers would have a little wiggle room. At this point I watch a game and as soon as they are down by 3+ runs I say to myself "Well, that's that." I'm NEVER that pessimistic, but with this offense I am. There is NO power there. None.

I guess I'm leaning more and more toward the idea of moving Youkilis for a true power upgrade at the corner. He's valuable, he's good, he's a fan favorite, but I have NEVEr seen someone extend on a ball like he does and manage to hit weak popups to the opposite field. Teixiera would drive those balls out of the yard.

[a700hitter]

Last year we were lamenting about the #5 hole, so Theo went and got Drew. Where will this additional bat play the field. Everyone here thinks Youk is a god, so that's out of the question. Pedroia's been doing okay with the bat. How much of an offensive upgrade can we expect to get at 3rd this year. Manny is staying. Too much money is invested in Drew to sit him down. That leaves CF and SS. Lugo is finally starting to hit, so we might as well live through his hot streak after suffering through his slump. That leaves CF and a back up catcher, which is difficult because of the knuckleball. I don't see the big openings on this team for a hitter. On the other hand, the 3,4,and 5 holes in the starting rotation are becoming like great gaping chasm where games are sacrificed to the baseball gods. It's the pitching. With the Red Sox it is always the pitching.

[example1]

Last year we were lamenting about the #5 hole, so Theo went and got Drew. Where will this additional bat play the field. Everyone here thinks Youk is a god, so that's out of the question. Pedroia's been doing okay with the bat. How much of an offensive upgrade can we expect to get at 3rd this year. Manny is staying. Too much money is invested in Drew to sit him down. That leaves CF and SS. Lugo is finally starting to hit, so we might as well live through his hot streak after suffering through his slump. That leaves CF and a back up catcher, which is difficult because of the knuckleball. I don't see the big openings on this team for a hitter. On the other hand, the 3,4,and 5 holes in the starting rotation are becoming like great gaping chasm where games are sacrificed to the baseball gods. It's the pitching. With the Red Sox it is always the pitching.

"Everyone here thinks Youk is a god, so that's out of the question"

Sorry man, but when did what everyone here think matter in the slightest to what Theo actually does? seriously. People here like Youkilis. That is a fact. People all over Red Sox Nation love YOukilis because he has the everyman appeal, is a hard worker and wears his heart on his sleeve. He has also proven to be an effective player (much better than you ever believed he would be... for what it's worth... when you referred to him as nothing but an average player). He's not an average player. He's a better than average player.

He is not, however, a super star. Nor is he the type of power bat that a team with power outages at SS, 2B, RF and CF can afford to keep if a better option comes along.

The supposed power bat scenario I'm talking about involves moving Youkilis and placing that power bat in his defensive position. If it was a 1B other than Teixiera then I would think twice, but given Tex's age, switch hitting, power, and defensive skills, I think I would make that deal in a heartbeat. My guess is that a guy like Youkilis will NOT be off the table when Theo talks to Texas about getting Teixiera. They aren't that stupid.

[a700hitter]

The question, as always, is who is available that would be certain to make an impact. I think Schilling is as good or better in a stretch drive than anyone who is available. If the offense were regularly putting up 6 to 9 runs then pitchers would have a little wiggle room. At this point I watch a game and as soon as they are down by 3+ runs I say to myself "Well, that's that." I'm NEVER that pessimistic, but with this offense I am. There is NO power there. None.

I guess I'm leaning more and more toward the idea of moving Youkilis for a true power upgrade at the corner. He's valuable, he's good, he's a fan favorite, but I have NEVEr seen someone extend on a ball like he does and manage to hit weak popups to the opposite field. Teixiera would drive those balls out of the yard.There aren't many hitters available either. If we know the team needs a pitcher, it's not an excuse for the FO to say that none are available. Everyone is available for the right price. Some will cost money, others prospects. It's up to them to get it done. The Yankees filled two holes last year with Abreu and Lidle and it didn't mortgage their future. Lots of FO apologists bought the cover story planted in the papers about the prohibitive expense of Abreu. That was proved to be hypocritical BS when they signed Drew for megabucks for a long term contract ending after the conclusion of this decade. A slumping Abreu is better than the Drew we are seeing and the Yanks only extended him one year. No excuses for the FO this year. They spent a lot on this team. With the right reinforcing, it could go deep into October. They need to get what is needed. There will be no excuses if they sit on thier hands and bad luck and this team to implode and goes home after September. If that happens, the responsibility lies right at the feet of the FO.

[a700hitter]

"Everyone here thinks Youk is a god, so that's out of the question"

Sorry man, but when did what everyone here think matter in the slightest to what Theo actually does? seriously. The answer is never, but I am not in the mood for arguing with all the Youkilis groupies about trading him. Moving him for an upgrade has ben an obvious move to me for some time. I've posted quite a few times that we should sell high on Youk. Unfortunately, I think the FO is in love with his cheap salary and they view him as a good value. He is a good value, which is why you can get some top talent in return for him.

[redsoxrules]

16 times since june 1 the sox offense has scored 2 runs or less , thats 40 percent of all their game played since june 1, thats pretty awfull , now im hoping its just a big slump and it will turn around but just to make sure id go and get a big bat

[a700hitter]

16 times since june 1 the sox offense has scored 2 runs or less , thats 40 percent of all their game played since june 1, thats pretty awfull , now im hoping its just a big slump and it will turn around but just to make sure id go and get a big batGriffey would be a nice fit, but we still need a pitcher if we want to be a serious contender.

Speaking of pitchers, and in this case I use this term loosely, what is the latest report on that bag of shit replacemtn for Pedro, Clement. I thought they were going to make some decisions about his immediate future. I hope we don't have to resort to putting him on the mound in September. I'll puke if I see that.

[schillingouttheks]

I'd rather watch Clement pitch and hope we catch lightning in a bottle than watch the wheels fall off of Tavarez's carriage. The experiment is over. He needs to be put back into the bullpen.

Yes, Tavarez, that's a challenge. Make me think otherwise tonight.

I just have a hunch that this Mark Buehrle thing is still alive.

[example1]

There aren't many hitters available either. If we know the team needs a pitcher, it's not an excuse for the FO to say that none are available. Everyone is available for the right price. Some will cost money, others prospects. It's up to them to get it done. The Yankees filled two holes last year with Abreu and Lidle and it didn't mortgage their future. Lots of FO apologists bought the cover story planted in the papers about the prohibitive expense of Abreu. That was proved to be hypocritical BS when they signed Drew for megabucks for a long term contract ending after the conclusion of this decade. A slumping Abreu is better than the Drew we are seeing and the Yanks only extended him one year. No excuses for the FO this year. They spent a lot on this team. With the right reinforcing, it could go deep into October. They need to get what is needed. There will be no excuses if they sit on thier hands and bad luck and this team to implode and goes home after September. If that happens, the responsibility lies right at the feet of the FO.

Sell the farm to get Teixiera. Avoid Ellsbury--if you can--and Buchholz. Otherwise, anyone (including Lars Anderson) should be available. They should set their sights on him and make it happen. They shouldn't make a move just to make a move, but they should make the right move.

I'm glad we agree that this team has the potential to go deep into October. I don't agree that it all lies at the feet of the FO. How were they supposed to know that Manny and Ortiz would have a power outage? I'm not taking all blame away from them--as JD Drew appears to be a bust so far--but when the two rock-solid spots in your order are not producing the power they once did, I can't say that is predictable. According to the stats there was little reason to think it would happen this drastically. Yes, yes, both Ortiz and Manny are still great hitters, but they aren't producing like they have in the past.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

My two cents:

Go get Mark Teixeira....all prospects are available except for Clay Buchholz. Jon Lester, Michael Bowden, Jacoby Ellsbury, Kevin Youkilis, Coco Crisp, Wily Mo Pena, Craig Hansen....whatever. If they make a mistake with a few of those prospects....no big deal because we get Mark Teixeira. By the time he becomes a free agent and we possibly loose him, we will have other prospects we will be talking up. More options will arise and the Red Sox will move on.

The only reason I don't want to give up Clay Buchholz is because I have seen him pitch and understand his "stuff" is dominating. Some guys don't work out but he has a great chance of being an ace. Imagine what he will look like when he fills out. That 92-95 MPH fastball may pump up to 95-97 MPH. His change and curveball are probably the best in the system. In fact I think his curve is on par with Josh Beckett's. He may have the best change in the entire organization (although I'm still intrigued by Dice-Ks if he would use it more). I'd love to see the kid develop a splitter.

[CrespoBlows]

Griffey would be a nice fit, but we still need a pitcher if we want to be a serious contender.

Where would you play Griffey?

He wouldn't be an upgrade over Coco Crisp, and the Red Sox aren't going to bench J.D. Drew.

Does anyone realize, just how valuable Coco Crisp's glove has been this year? Coco Crisp has an FRAA of +16, if he continues at this rate, he will finish with an FRAA of +27. That's about what Willie Mays would produce in a season at his peak. His WARP1, which is being carried solely by his glove, is actually higher than Griffey's. (3.6 to 3.1)

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

He wouldn't be an upgrade over Coco Crisp, and the Red Sox aren't going to bench J.D. Drew.

Maybe they should bench JD Drew and his garbage SLG. Someone needs to give him a kick in the ass and tell him to DRIVE THE DAMN BALL!! He needs to be more aggressive. Speaking of JD Drew...has anyone seen him go the opposite way all season? Every time I watch him he is trying to pull the ball....go with what they give you.

[a700hitter]

How were they supposed to know that Manny and Ortiz would have a power outage? I'm not taking all blame away from them--as JD Drew appears to be a bust so far--but when the two rock-solid spots in your order are not producing the power they once did, I can't say that is predictable. According to the stats there was little reason to think it would happen this drastically. Yes, yes, both Ortiz and Manny are still great hitters, but they aren't producing like they have in the past.There is no power outage. Ortiz has said several times that he is being pitched to differently. Opposing pitchers are minimizing their opportunities to beat them, and the result has been less long balls. Frankly, I am surprised that it took this long for the league's pitchers to wise up. Let's face it, in 2003 these guys had protection all around: Nomar 28 HR 105 RBI, Millar 25 HR 96 RBI, Muellar 19 HR 85 RBI .326, Nixon 28 HR 87 RBI, Varitek 25 HR 85 RBI, Walker 13 HR 85 RBI-- astonishing support. In 2004, they had the same group, but less Nomar and Walker was replaced by Bellhorn 17 HR 82 RBI .373 OBP. In 2005, there was some slippage by some of the guys due to injuries, but it was essentially the same crew except they added Renteria, who was okay offensively, and they added Olerud for part of the season and he produced. The same guys were in the lineup providing protection, and let's not forget that we had Damon at the top of the order day in and day out as the catalyst. In 2006, Millar was gone and so was Damon. Renteria was also gone. Nixon was completely physically shot. Youk held up his end for the first half and for some reason pitchers kept pitching to the two big guys even though they had no real protection. This year they added Drew who has been a waste and Lugo who has sucked. There is no protection for these guys and the pitchers have figured it out throughout the league. The FO should have seen this coming. Look at the offensive juggernaut in 2003. Piece by piece that machine has been stripped away by injury, age and FA defections. We are left with a skeleton of that lineup. I am sorry, but the FO should have seen this coming for a couple of seasons. I have been dumbfounded that pitchers have continued to challenge them in 2005 and certainly 2006. This is no sudden decline by the two great hitters. Papi may not be a 50 HR guy every year, but with the right protection, he still would mash 40 and that's pretty darn good. Manny may not be a 45 HR guy, but he is a 30 HR 120 RBI guy if he gets some support.

Edit: In 2006 Bill Muellar was also gone. Lowell did great in the first half , but swooned in the second half. In 2006, we lost Millar, Muellar, and Damon and essentially Nixon who was a shell. That's huge. The FO should have seen it coming. They did not do enough to replace these guys.

[a700hitter]

Where would you play Griffey?

He wouldn't be an upgrade over Coco Crisp, and the Red Sox aren't going to bench J.D. Drew.

Does anyone realize, just how valuable Coco Crisp's glove has been this year? Coco Crisp has an FRAA of +16, if he continues at this rate, he will finish with an FRAA of +27. That's about what Willie Mays would produce in a season at his peak. His WARP1, which is being carried solely by his glove, is actually higher than Griffey's. (3.6 to 3.1)Griffey would be a great 4th OF who could get plenty of playing time in place of Drew when his hammy acts up. He could spell Coco as well as Manny and Ortiz. Right now we are turning to crap like Hinske, WMP and a rookie to take those ABs. I'd feel much better if Griffey took those ABs.

[riverside sluggers]

My two cents:

Go get Mark Teixeira....all prospects are available except for Clay Buchholz. Jon Lester, Michael Bowden, Jacoby Ellsbury, Kevin Youkilis, Coco Crisp, Wily Mo Pena, Craig Hansen....whatever. If they make a mistake with a few of those prospects....no big deal because we get Mark Teixeira. By the time he becomes a free agent and we possibly loose him, we will have other prospects we will be talking up. More options will arise and the Red Sox will move on.

The only reason I don't want to give up Clay Buchholz is because I have seen him pitch and understand his "stuff" is dominating. Some guys don't work out but he has a great chance of being an ace. Imagine what he will look like when he fills out. That 92-95 MPH fastball may pump up to 95-97 MPH. His change and curveball are probably the best in the system. In fact I think his curve is on par with Josh Beckett's. He may have the best change in the entire organization (although I'm still intrigued by Dice-Ks if he would use it more). I'd love to see the kid develop a splitter.

Cmon man if the Sox trade for Mark Teixeira, especially if a Jacoby Ellsbury is involved, no doubt in my mind that they will not let Texeira hit free agency in 2008

[schillingouttheks]

Cmon man if the Sox trade for Mark Teixeira, especially if a Jacoby Ellsbury is involved, no doubt in my mind that they will not let Texeira hit free agency in 2008

Agreed. They'll trade for him and give him a nice long extension.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Cmon man if the Sox trade for Mark Teixeira, especially if a Jacoby Ellsbury is involved, no doubt in my mind that they will not let Texeira hit free agency in 2008

I'm fine with that....get it done

[example1]

There is no power outage. Ortiz has said several times that he is being pitched to differently. Opposing pitchers are minimizing their opportunities to beat them, and the result has been less long balls. Frankly, I am surprised that it took this long for the league's pitchers to wise up. Let's face it, in 2003 these guys had protection all around: Nomar 28 HR 105 RBI, Millar 25 HR 96 RBI, Muellar 19 HR 85 RBI .326, Nixon 28 HR 87 RBI, Varitek 25 HR 85 RBI, Walker 13 HR 85 RBI-- astonishing support. In 2004, they had the same group, but less Nomar and Walker was replaced by Bellhorn 17 HR 82 RBI .373 OBP. In 2005, there was some slippage by some of the guys due to injuries, but it was essentially the same crew except they added Renteria, who was okay offensively, and they added Olerud for part of the season and he produced. The same guys were in the lineup providing protection, and let's not forget that we had Damon at the top of the order day in and day out as the catalyst. In 2006, Millar was gone and so was Damon. Renteria was also gone. Nixon was completely physically shot. Youk held up his end for the first half and for some reason pitchers kept pitching to the two big guys even though they had no real protection. This year they added Drew who has been a waste and Lugo who has sucked. There is no protection for these guys and the pitchers have figured it out throughout the league. The FO should have seen this coming. Look at the offensive juggernaut in 2003. Piece by piece that machine has been stripped away by injury, age and FA defections. We are left with a skeleton of that lineup. I am sorry, but the FO should have seen this coming for a couple of seasons. I have been dumbfounded that pitchers have continued to challenge them in 2005 and certainly 2006. This is no sudden decline by the two great hitters. Papi may not be a 50 HR guy every year, but with the right protection, he still would mash 40 and that's pretty darn good. Manny may not be a 45 HR guy, but he is a 30 HR 120 RBI guy if he gets some support.

And this backs your argument that this team needs more pitching? Hmmm...

I KNOW the front office saw this coming. They talked about it. They spoke of needing to retool the team and the lineup and they have done that. DESPITE not having 28 HR from Nixon and all the production from Millar and Mueller and Nomar, this team is in first place. In fact, during the so-called dismantling, the Sox have made the playoffs 3 out of 4 times, and in the two seasons that they didn't make it (06 and 07 so far) they were leading the division into mid July. The problem is getting stuck on the production of the 03 and 04 teams. Those were amazing teams that were basically unrivaled in the history of baseball. My thinking is that the front office DID see this coming, and because they couldn't acquire another David Ortiz (because he doesn't exist) they instead got arguably the two best pitchers in 06 and 07 in Beckett and Matsuzaka. that appears to have worked pretty well.

I think you argue correctly, but the conclusion is that this team needs to add another bat.

And I am willing to argue that Manny's power has dropped. That's not to say it won't come back or that he lost his power. He simply hasn't driven balls like he usually does. I don't see a drop off in average or in OBP with Ortiz and Ramirez. I see a drop in SLG, mostly from Manny.

do you blame pitchers pitching differently to Ortiz and Manny for Manny not driving in a single runner when Ortiz was intentionally walked 3 times last week? A hitter as good as Manny Ramirez would not weakly complain "The pitchers are pitching differently to me!! that's why I'm bad." No man, this guy is a first ballot, no doubt hall of famer. The rules of baseball and the way pitchers approach hitters didn't suddenly change. He's in a bad streak, but he's also aging. The questions about his aging and its impact on his performance are valid, as he won't hit forever. I'm not willing to say it is his age that is causing the drop. He is off by about a fraction of a second and he has looked better recently. If those guys drive the ball the way they can then the offense will get going again. It isn't far off.

[example1]

Cmon man if the Sox trade for Mark Teixeira, especially if a Jacoby Ellsbury is involved, no doubt in my mind that they will not let Texeira hit free agency in 2008

Teixeira would be the centerpiece to their offense as he goes into his mid 30s. The guy is a tremendous hitter and would EASILIY ease the transition away from Manny and Ortiz to Mark and Ortiz in the coming few years.

Nice healthy extension for mr. teixeira if he comes this way.

[a700hitter]

And this backs your argument that this team needs more pitching? Hmmm...The 2003 team didn't win the championship either. The reason? Pitching. Enter Schilling and Foulke. Raise the flag.


do you blame pitchers pitching differently to Ortiz and Manny for Manny not driving in a single runner when Ortiz was intentionally walked 3 times last week? A hitter as good as Manny Ramirez would not weakly complain "The pitchers are pitching The pitchers have decided that they'll take their chances trying to get one of them out instead of both as they tried to do in past years. Challenge both of them and you increase your chances of giving up a long ball. Put one of them on 1B and you eliminate the chance of one long ball right there. Then go after Manny. Manny is a great hitter, but not the kind of long ball hitter that Ortiz is. If he gets a single, Papi goes to second. If he doubles Papi goes to third. No big deal for the pitcher. He's stayed away from the two run bomb or back to backers. Maybe Tito should consider flip flopping them. Force them to walk Manny and pitch to Ortiz.

[riverside sluggers]

Teixeira would be the centerpiece to their offense as he goes into his mid 30s. The guy is a tremendous hitter and would EASILIY ease the transition away from Manny and Ortiz to Mark and Ortiz in the coming few years.

Nice healthy extension for mr. teixeira if he comes this way.

One of the few out there Id be comfortable giving up Ellsbury for

[jacksonianmarch]

The question, as always, is who is available that would be certain to make an impact. I think Schilling is as good or better in a stretch drive than anyone who is available.

Do you want to lay all of your eggs in Schilling's basket after he went on the DL with essentially no injury and continually, throughout the yr showed a serious decline in stuff? And when he left for the DL with no injury, he was worse than Tavarez.

In a fan's position, faith and prayer are all well and good. In Theo's position, he wont know what Schilling has until it is too late since Schill is scheduled to pitch ON DEADLINE DAY. If he doesnt fortify your rotation, then he is acting like a fan, which is a BAD idea. And if Schilling comes back and flops while the yankees and Clemens surge past you, then Theo will be looking for new employment. Losing out on Clemens was a bad move for the sox. Handing Tavarez of all people, the #5 position to begin the yr was a bad move. And now, with his supposed "ace" falling apart and his new 1-2 punch essentially all he has in the rotation, he MUST do something.

I will tell you this. If Theo relies on Schilling to be the only rotation fortification, this team is doomed. You saw what 2 pitchers got you. It took you from one of the best teams in all of baseball last season to 3rd in the division in a month and a half. There are 2 and a half left now. Plenty of time for the rotation to flop. If you go get a bat and pass on the pitching, you will either scrape into the playoffs or miss them entirely, and if you make it you will lose in the 1st round. And that is a farcry from the wrecking ball team we saw running through teams in April and May.

[example1]

Do you want to lay all of your eggs in Schilling's basket after he went on the DL with essentially no injury and continually, throughout the yr showed a serious decline in stuff? And when he left for the DL with no injury, he was worse than Tavarez.

In a fan's position, faith and prayer are all well and good. In Theo's position, he wont know what Schilling has until it is too late since Schill is scheduled to pitch ON DEADLINE DAY. If he doesnt fortify your rotation, then he is acting like a fan, which is a BAD idea. And if Schilling comes back and flops while the yankees and Clemens surge past you, then Theo will be looking for new employment. Losing out on Clemens was a bad move for the sox. Handing Tavarez of all people, the #5 position to begin the yr was a bad move. And now, with his supposed "ace" falling apart and his new 1-2 punch essentially all he has in the rotation, he MUST do something.

I will tell you this. If Theo relies on Schilling to be the only rotation fortification, this team is doomed. You saw what 2 pitchers got you. It took you from one of the best teams in all of baseball last season to 3rd in the division in a month and a half. There are 2 and a half left now. Plenty of time for the rotation to flop. If you go get a bat and pass on the pitching, you will either scrape into the playoffs or miss them entirely, and if you make it you will lose in the 1st round. And that is a farcry from the wrecking ball team we saw running through teams in April and May.

A whole lot of baseless speculation. You think Theo would get canned if the Yankees overtook the Sox? Really? At best that is speculative, but I think it is so far off base it is laughable. You think this FO would can him when the team is making more money and has its reach into more places WORLD WIDE than it ever has?

Joe Torre, who has watched his grossly fat paychecked team fail year after year after year hasn't been canned yet even though in terms of expectations his team has been MUCH more disappointing. I don't see Theo going anywhere because the Red Sox--as a whole--are doing quite well, thank you very much.

Now about whether I'm willing to throw schilling in a big game down the stretch, yeah, Im comfortable with that. I have seen flashes of brilliance from him this year, and flashes of being really bad. Sounds like Wakefield. I'm sure it would be nice for you to think that a guy who has been a stud in the playoffs isn't capable of pitching a game that is just good enough to win, but I'm pretty sure he is. it's not like control is a problem for him. If he used to throw 98 but now he only throws 89 and didn't have great control I would be worried. However, he throws strikes and makes things happen. He will be MUCH better than what they're using now.

The thing I think is funniest is you talk about this as looking at it as a 'fan' rather than how Theo has to look at it. However, Theo knows what is available. you don't. I don't. If there is only shit available I don't expect him to get shit. If there is something valuable available then I expect him to go after him. it's not that complicated.

The fan in me could give two shits about Schilling, honestly, except that he pitches for the Sox. His political ranting and limelight seeking turned me off quite awhile ago--this does not negate my ability to see him as a decent pitcher. I think it is YOUR fandom that makes it easy for you to naysay toward the Red Sox while supporting the Yankees at all costs. OF COURSE it would be stupid to put my eggs in the Schilling basket. Of course, you won't have a comment if Schilling wins a playoff or world series game. He doesn't have to be perfect he just has to be good.

Remember when you bragged about how much better the yankees bullpen was than the Sox, with their "corps of power-armed relievers" :lol: :lol: HiLairious! How about absolutely dragging me over the coals for saying I would rather have Matsuzaka than King Felix after Felix had that great outing against the Sox. you pretended it wasn't even an argument. The list goes on... needless to say, while I like you (I think) and like your posts and perspective, you have a pretty solid track record of making posts that sound important and analytical and rock solid, but which just fall by the wayside when they turn out to be wrong.

I don't care, of course, because nobody is just right all the time. However, I'm going to take what you write above with a grain of salt (with a little tiny NY emblem on it).

[jacksonianmarch]

A whole lot of baseless speculation. You think Theo would get canned if the Yankees overtook the Sox? Really? At best that is speculative, but I think it is so far off base it is laughable. You think this FO would can him when the team is making more money and has its reach into more places WORLD WIDE than it ever has?

IF, I told you at the beginning of the yr that...

The Sox would sign DMats, Drew, and Lugo
The Sox would take a 15 game lead on the yankees
The Yankees would outbid the sox for Clemens
The Sox rotation then falls apart
Theo doesnt deal for reinforcement
Clemens leads the yankees in overtaking the 15 game deficit and beating the sox out for the division.

If I told you all that, you'd want Theo fired, you know it. Everyone would. And to be honest with you, if the sox were willing to pony up 200+ mil this offseason then bucked on the 20 mil (prorated) it would have take to stabilize the rotation, then he should be fired.


Joe Torre, who has watched his grossly fat paychecked team fail year after year after year hasn't been canned yet even though in terms of expectations his team has been MUCH more disappointing.

This could be because...
A. We have won the division
B. Torre has a monster contract
C. Torre was the face of the yankees recent dynasty
D. Our owner may be senile, because the damn jerk manager should have been fired yrs ago

Then again, we are talking GM, not manager.


I don't see Theo going anywhere because the Red Sox--as a whole--are doing quite well, thank you very much.

IF you lose a 15 game lead to the yankees, then you wont be saying this. Granted, this is all speculation. After watching my team take it hard in the bum for months, they are finally showing signs of life at the same time that your rotation has gone into shambles. But what I think is the worst thing of all, as a700 pointed out, is that this was the same issue as last yr. The same symptoms returned, the same problems arose and the same mediocrity set in. Last yr he did nothing about it and it sent you home early. This yr, if he does nothing then he is showing a propensity to repeat his mistakes and it SERIOUSLY hurts his credibility.



Now about whether I'm willing to throw schilling in a big game down the stretch, yeah, Im comfortable with that. I have seen flashes of brilliance from him this year, and flashes of being really bad. Sounds like Wakefield.

Wakefield has an unhittable pitch when it is on, Schilling doesnt. And Schilling has a serious decline in stuff recently. Plus, with this false injury, you can only expect him to be a little more rested rather than actually "recovered" from something. I expect him to come back at about the same as he was before. But if you are a GM, you have to prepare for the possibility that he comes back as the guy who was shillacked his last few starts. You just have to. Because if he does come back as a total liability, then the signs were there and Theo did nothing about it.



I'm sure it would be nice for you to think that a guy who has been a stud in the playoffs isn't capable of pitching a game that is just good enough to win, but I'm pretty sure he is. it's not like control is a problem for him. If he used to throw 98 but now he only throws 89 and didn't have great control I would be worried. However, he throws strikes and makes things happen. He will be MUCH better than what they're using now.

He is a guy who used to throw 98 who now throws 89 but pitches like he still throws 98. His failure to adjust is hurting him. And this yr, his control in the zone has been terrible. Mix the two and you have a guy who has lost his power, pitching like a power pitcher, making mistakes in the zone. This is a recipe for disaster.



The thing I think is funniest is you talk about this as looking at it as a 'fan' rather than how Theo has to look at it. However, Theo knows what is available. you don't. I don't. If there is only shit available I don't expect him to get shit. If there is something valuable available then I expect him to go after him. it's not that complicated.

There are always major league starters available, and their prices will go up or go down depending on need and want by the deadline. But there are plenty of back of the rotation guys available. Something that the sox could use. They dont need to get an ace, they just need someone who can reliably keep you in the game better than Tavarez or Gabbard.


The fan in me could give two shits about Schilling, honestly, except that he pitches for the Sox. His political ranting and limelight seeking turned me off quite awhile ago--this does not negate my ability to see him as a decent pitcher. I think it is YOUR fandom that makes it easy for you to naysay toward the Red Sox while supporting the Yankees at all costs. OF COURSE it would be stupid to put my eggs in the Schilling basket. Of course, you won't have a comment if Schilling wins a playoff or world series game. He doesn't have to be perfect he just has to be good.

But he HASNT been good. He was AWFUL in his last 2 starts prior to hitting the DL, even though there WAS NOTHING PHYSICALLY WRONG WITH HIM. He said he didnt feel hurt. The MRI proved it. It isnt like the guy was throwing up tons of QS's then went down with an injury. This is a guy who was shittanked and then went on the DL because something had to be wrong. He just didnt know what.


Remember when you bragged about how much better the yankees bullpen was than the Sox, with their "corps of power-armed relievers" :lol: :lol: HiLairious! How about absolutely dragging me over the coals for saying I would rather have Matsuzaka than King Felix after Felix had that great outing against the Sox. you pretended it wasn't even an argument. The list goes on... needless to say, while I like you (I think) and like your posts and perspective, you have a pretty solid track record of making posts that sound important and analytical and rock solid, but which just fall by the wayside when they turn out to be wrong.

and you havent made dumbass posts or predictions? Cmon now, we all have had our stinkers. But I dont think I am alone here. The sox rotation will be their downfall, and it will be magnified even worse if Schilling comes back inconsistent.




I don't care, of course, because nobody is just right all the time. However, I'm going to take what you write above with a grain of salt (with a little tiny NY emblem on it).

do what you want. I am still not very confident in this team since they have proven to suck so many times that I stand up for them. So for now, I'll just point out your worst flaw that will need to be addressed if you want 2007 to be a banner yr.

[example1]

Jacksonianmarch
IF, I told you at the beginning of the yr that...

The Sox would sign DMats, Drew, and Lugo
The Sox would take a 15 game lead on the yankees
The Yankees would outbid the sox for Clemens
The Sox rotation then falls apart
Theo doesnt deal for reinforcement
Clemens leads the yankees in overtaking the 15 game deficit and beating the sox out for the division.

If I told you all that, you'd want Theo fired, you know it. Everyone would. And to be honest with you, if the sox were willing to pony up 200+ mil this offseason then bucked on the 20 mil (prorated) it would have take to stabilize the rotation, then he should be fired.

I'm just not everyone, I guess. I didn't even care if Grady Little was fired after the Pedro thing. It didn't seem like an obvious call to me, despite everyone else's apparently 20/20 vision at the time. I have a hard time knowing who to blame for losses in baseball when it is so hard to know who to blame for wins. If the professionals on this team didn't come through, then I would blame the professionals. Not the guy who hired the staff that ended up coming up a hair short.

Does Mike Krzyzewski get blamed for not winning the tournament every year if Duke gets to the Elite 8? No. How about John Schuerholz in Atlanta? It is understood that at times the ball bounces strangely or people get injured, or whatever, but that the best you can do is put your team in a place to win. This front office (and other front offices, including I bet the Yankees) starts the season with a wins goal. They hope to attain that goal. If they get there they will be happy, if they don't they won't. This team's goal is uaually in the mid 90's in wins. They should attain that this year. The past few years they have attained their goal (except for 06), one of those years it all went well, others it didn't go as well.

The Red Sox are playing like they should be expected to. They are currently 19 games above .500. The Yankees have SHAT the bed. If they yankees come back it is because they are a good team who SHOULD finish the season with a W% in the .600, not because the Sox choked and gave up some enormous lead. if the Sox finish with a .600+ w% and don't win the division there will be no heads rolling.



This could be because...
A. We have won the division
B. Torre has a monster contract
C. Torre was the face of the yankees recent dynasty
D. Our owner may be senile, because the damn jerk manager should have been fired yrs ago

Then again, we are talking GM, not manager.



Well... follow through with your thought... why is Brian Cashman still GMing that team? He has destroyed expectations as well.



IF you lose a 15 game lead to the yankees, then you wont be saying this. Granted, this is all speculation. After watching my team take it hard in the bum for months, they are finally showing signs of life at the same time that your rotation has gone into shambles. But what I think is the worst thing of all, as a700 pointed out, is that this was the same issue as last yr. The same symptoms returned, the same problems arose and the same mediocrity set in. Last yr he did nothing about it and it sent you home early. This yr, if he does nothing then he is showing a propensity to repeat his mistakes and it SERIOUSLY hurts his credibility.


I agree, if there is somethign to be done. You don't need to make moves just to make moves. By the end of the season Tavarez should not be in the rotation. Other than that I'm unsure what will happen. I remember back in 2004 this team literally had Abe Alverez to come up for a spot start. This team has probably 5 pitchers who have seen MLB action before who could come up from the minors or bullpen to start (Hansack, Gabbard, Pauley, Lester, Snyder). ALL of them are better options than the once highly touted Abe Alverez was.



Wakefield has an unhittable pitch when it is on, Schilling doesnt.

Tell that to the Oakland A's.



And Schilling has a serious decline in stuff recently. Plus, with this false injury, you can only expect him to be a little more rested rather than actually "recovered" from something. I expect him to come back at about the same as he was before. But if you are a GM, you have to prepare for the possibility that he comes back as the guy who was shillacked his last few starts. You just have to. Because if he does come back as a total liability, then the signs were there and Theo did nothing about it.

Yes, you have to prepare for it as well as you can. But given that there aren't any obvious better options I don't know what that answer is. This is such a stupid argument, because you're trying to criticize a GM who REFUSED TO EXTEND SCHILLING'S CONTRACT because he won't let him go or stop using him at midseason!!! He knows that Schilling doesn't have a whole lot left. He is exploring other options, but please, please, PLEASE name a starter who is more effective than Schilling and who is available.

Schilling in April:
3-1, 3.27 ERA, 33 IP, 23 K
Schilling in May
2-1, 4.03 ERA, 38 IP, 37 K

His first two months were certainly solid enough for a #3 pitcher. He just took a few weeks off, says he's feeling healthy, I'm prone to believe that he can be a 4-4.5 ERA guy the rest of the way.



He is a guy who used to throw 98 who now throws 89 but pitches like he still throws 98. His failure to adjust is hurting him. And this yr, his control in the zone has been terrible. Mix the two and you have a guy who has lost his power, pitching like a power pitcher, making mistakes in the zone. This is a recipe for disaster.


Or a recipe for adjustment. Let's see: his career is on the line, he's a smart pitcher who--even in 04--had to adjust compared to his old style. Do you think he will stubbornly proceed with the same strategy, or try to change? Hmmm, well, since he's a stupid Red Sox I know which way you would vote. :D



There are always major league starters available, and their prices will go up or go down depending on need and want by the deadline. But there are plenty of back of the rotation guys available. Something that the sox could use. They dont need to get an ace, they just need someone who can reliably keep you in the game better than Tavarez or Gabbard.


I agree that this would be nice, at the right price.



But he HASNT been good. He was AWFUL in his last 2 starts prior to hitting the DL, even though there WAS NOTHING PHYSICALLY WRONG WITH HIM. He said he didnt feel hurt. The MRI proved it. It isnt like the guy was throwing up tons of QS's then went down with an injury. This is a guy who was shittanked and then went on the DL because something had to be wrong. He just didnt know what.


He's old and needed some rest to be effective down the stretch.



and you havent made dumbass posts or predictions? Cmon now, we all have had our stinkers. But I dont think I am alone here. The sox rotation will be their downfall, and it will be magnified even worse if Schilling comes back inconsistent.


A diplomatic answer. YOu aren't alone no matter what side you take on the Schilling situation. Most pundits and analysts would most likely choose to have Schilling in the rotation over any of the "back end of the rotation" guys you're talking about.



do what you want. I am still not very confident in this team since they have proven to suck so many times that I stand up for them. So for now, I'll just point out your worst flaw that will need to be addressed if you want 2007 to be a banner yr.

I agree. My view is that Clay Buchholz could be that answer, as teams haven't seen him before, he's got electric stuff and it appears that Phil Hughes--who is considerably younger--is clearly going to be able to do the job. Buchholz might not be the best option, but he'll be more than fine as a #5 addition to this team or spot starting out of the pen.

[a700hitter]

Jackson, you will have 20 minutes to submit your reply brief.

[jacksonianmarch]

[/I]

I'm just not everyone, I guess. I didn't even care if Grady Little was fired after the Pedro thing. It didn't seem like an obvious call to me, despite everyone else's apparently 20/20 vision at the time. I have a hard time knowing who to blame for losses in baseball when it is so hard to know who to blame for wins. If the professionals on this team didn't come through, then I would blame the professionals. Not the guy who hired the staff that ended up coming up a hair short.

Does Mike Krzyzewski get blamed for not winning the tournament every year if Duke gets to the Elite 8? No. How about John Schuerholz in Atlanta? It is understood that at times the ball bounces strangely or people get injured, or whatever, but that the best you can do is put your team in a place to win. This front office (and other front offices, including I bet the Yankees) starts the season with a wins goal. They hope to attain that goal. If they get there they will be happy, if they don't they won't. This team's goal is uaually in the mid 90's in wins. They should attain that this year. The past few years they have attained their goal (except for 06), one of those years it all went well, others it didn't go as well.

The Red Sox are playing like they should be expected to. They are currently 19 games above .500. The Yankees have SHAT the bed. If they yankees come back it is because they are a good team who SHOULD finish the season with a W% in the .600, not because the Sox choked and gave up some enormous lead. if the Sox finish with a .600+ w% and don't win the division there will be no heads rolling.



Well... follow through with your thought... why is Brian Cashman still GMing that team? He has destroyed expectations as well.



I agree, if there is somethign to be done. You don't need to make moves just to make moves. By the end of the season Tavarez should not be in the rotation. Other than that I'm unsure what will happen. I remember back in 2004 this team literally had Abe Alverez to come up for a spot start. This team has probably 5 pitchers who have seen MLB action before who could come up from the minors or bullpen to start (Hansack, Gabbard, Pauley, Lester, Snyder). ALL of them are better options than the once highly touted Abe Alverez was.



Tell that to the Oakland A's.



Yes, you have to prepare for it as well as you can. But given that there aren't any obvious better options I don't know what that answer is. This is such a stupid argument, because you're trying to criticize a GM who REFUSED TO EXTEND SCHILLING'S CONTRACT because he won't let him go or stop using him at midseason!!! He knows that Schilling doesn't have a whole lot left. He is exploring other options, but please, please, PLEASE name a starter who is more effective than Schilling and who is available.

Schilling in April:
3-1, 3.27 ERA, 33 IP, 23 K
Schilling in May
2-1, 4.03 ERA, 38 IP, 37 K

His first two months were certainly solid enough for a #3 pitcher. He just took a few weeks off, says he's feeling healthy, I'm prone to believe that he can be a 4-4.5 ERA guy the rest of the way.



Or a recipe for adjustment. Let's see: his career is on the line, he's a smart pitcher who--even in 04--had to adjust compared to his old style. Do you think he will stubbornly proceed with the same strategy, or try to change? Hmmm, well, since he's a stupid Red Sox I know which way you would vote. :D



I agree that this would be nice, at the right price.



He's old and needed some rest to be effective down the stretch.



A diplomatic answer. YOu aren't alone no matter what side you take on the Schilling situation. Most pundits and analysts would most likely choose to have Schilling in the rotation over any of the "back end of the rotation" guys you're talking about.



I agree. My view is that Clay Buchholz could be that answer, as teams haven't seen him before, he's got electric stuff and it appears that Phil Hughes--who is considerably younger--is clearly going to be able to do the job. Buchholz might not be the best option, but he'll be more than fine as a #5 addition to this team or spot starting out of the pen.

Your view on Buchholz may be a bit premature. Hughes has a yr on him in experience and progressed slowly. Buchholz got hit pretty good last time out. You dont want to ruin a kid's confidence in a playoff race, especially a guy like Buchholz who could be the so-called "reinforcements" the sox bring in to fill the rotation.

In terms of Schilling, this is the second yr in a row where he wore down as the season went along. If you think the guy from April is returning, you are wishing more than thinking. It may happen, but it isnt likely given his recent history.

Also, some pitchers dont adjust. See Randy Johnson. Others do. It is pitcher specific and it doesnt happen overnight.

[example1]

Jackson, you will have 20 minutes to submit your reply brief.

:lol:

Sorry a700

[example1]

Your view on Buchholz may be a bit premature. Hughes has a yr on him in experience and progressed slowly. Buchholz got hit pretty good last time out. You dont want to ruin a kid's confidence in a playoff race, especially a guy like Buchholz who could be the so-called "reinforcements" the sox bring in to fill the rotation.

It may be a bit premature. Or it may be just what this team needs. Who knows. I know he will get his shot. He's pitching too well for the Sox to not see what he can do for the big club--assuming he continues to throw well.



In terms of Schilling, this is the second yr in a row where he wore down as the season went along. If you think the guy from April is returning, you are wishing more than thinking. It may happen, but it isnt likely given his recent history.

Also, some pitchers dont adjust. See Randy Johnson. Others do. It is pitcher specific and it doesnt happen overnight.

The sox haven't had the abillity to sit him for stretches of the season before. I'm just telling you Jacksonian, I still feel a lot more confident putting Schilling out on the mound than Gabbard or Tavarez or Wakefield. You want Kei Igawa or Mike Mussina starting your games? That's what I thought.

[jacksonianmarch]

It may be a bit premature. Or it may be just what this team needs. Who knows. I know he will get his shot. He's pitching too well for the Sox to not see what he can do for the big club--assuming he continues to throw well.



The sox haven't had the abillity to sit him for stretches of the season before. I'm just telling you Jacksonian, I still feel a lot more confident putting Schilling out on the mound than Gabbard or Tavarez or Wakefield. You want Kei Igawa or Mike Mussina starting your games? That's what I thought.

Mussina has been better of late and I'd take him just as much as I'd take Schilling.

[CrespoBlows]

C: Varitek (OK)
1B: Youkilis (could be moved to 3B)
2B: Pedroia (OK)
SS: Lugo (no choice)
3B: Lowell (could be moved for an arm)
LF: Ramirez (OK)
CF: Crisp (OK)
RF: Drew (OK)
DH: Ortiz (OK)

We can make up for our pitching problems if we score enough runs. It might not work in October, but I trust that Beckett and Matsuzaka can make 4 starts in a 7 game series. I'm going to advocate a trade for Barry Bonds. I know he's a dick, but he's got a .497 OBP, and he'd provide some protection for Ortiz and Ramirez. If the Giants deem that they would rather keep Bonds for the stretch run, go after Teixeria. If that cost is too steep, start looking elsewhere.

C: Mirabelli (Fuck him, but we're stuck)
1B: Hinske (Tolerable, as long as he plays only against RHP, and very rarely)
MIF: Cora (OK)
OF: Pena (Could package him for Bonds?)

The bench has a lot of holes, we should move Hinske and Pena for better bats, though Pena should get something of value. The Giants might be able to use him. He's young, still has a lot of potential, and he can play everyday in San Francisco. We'd need to send another young player, but it would be a good start.

If we move Wily Mo, Sammy Sosa would be a pretty decent pickup against LHP. He's currently OPSing 1.058 against LHP, and moving to Fenway would help him with his pull happy swing. If you can't stand the fact that we acquired two roid boys in a week, Jermaine Dye would probably come really cheap. He has a .820 OPS against southpaws, and has been a little unlucky. (.235 BABIP)

If we move Ortiz to 1B, he'll probably need some days off, and we'd need to add another Mike Lamb could probably help at the CIF position. Morgan Ensberg could be a good buy low option.

With the moves, the new lineup would look like:

1. Pedroia, 2B
2. Youkilis, 3B
3. Bonds, DH
4. Ramirez, LF
5. Ortiz, 1B
6. Drew, RF
7. Varitek, C
8. Crisp, CF
9. Lugo, SS

C: Mirabelli
CIF: Lamb, or Ensberg
CIF: Hinske
MIF: Cora
OF: Sosa, or Dye

SP: Beckett (OK)
SP: Matsuzaka (OK)
SP: Schilling (?)
SP: Wakefield (?)
SP: Tavarez (?)

This is an absolute mess. We need to see what we can get out of Schilling before the deadline, if he's got nothing, then the house is going to collapse. Everyone moves up a spot, which is exactly what I feared out of spring training. A move has to be made here. They can try something bold, but we know that won't happen. There's hardly anyone on the trading block, and those that are there, are going to require a load of prospects. Tread very lightly.

SP: Beckett
SP: Matsuzaka
SP: Schilling
SP: Buchholz
SP: Wakefield

Try it. We're probably going to falter anyway, but why not go down using your most talented players? Let Buchholz get about three more starts at AAA, then move him up. John Lackey pitched the Angels into the World Series, Dontrelle Willis did it, too. If he fails, then he got a taste of the bigs. If he can't handle that, then fuck him, he won't succeed anyway.

CL: Papelbon (Sigh...., OK)
SU: Okajima (OK)
SU: Delcarmen (OK)
SU: Donnelly (OK)
SU: Timlin (Eh..)
SU: Pinerio (No)
SU: Lopez (No)

An upgrade of the bullpen could help out the starting rotation. The last three need to be shot immediately, or traded for whatever scraps a team will throw at us. A few I have on my radar:

Dan Wheeler, RHP, Astros
Chad Qualls, RHP, Astros
Juan Rincon, RHP, Twins
Craig Breslow, LHP, PawSox.

CL: Papelbon
SU: Okajima
SU: Donnelly
SU: Delcarmen
SU: Breslow
SU: Timlin
SU: Wheeler

Basically, the offense is upgraded. Big time. They'll be able to bash into the playoffs, and should be OK with two good starters and a good back of the bullpen. Hopefully, Wakefield and Schilling are able to pitch average baseball, and Buchholz is able to pitch like 2002 John Lackey.

Transactions

Trade for Barry Bonds. Send Wily Mo Pena, and a pitching prospect to the Giants.

Trade for Sammy Sosa. Send a C level prospect to Texas.

Trade for Wheeler and Lamb. Send a B level prospect to Houston.

[jacksonianmarch]

Okay. Couple points...

Schilling's first start will be on July 31st, ie Theo will have ZERO time to determine if he is ready or not. And if the yankees are still trailing you in 2 weeks when the waiver wire opens, you better believe nothing that can help you will get by waivers. So you have to consider Schilling a wild card.

In terms of Bonds, the Giants wont put him on the market prior to him breaking the record and with his knees and ankles barking, he might not break it within 2 weeks. Hence, unless he gets hot, the only way he moves is if he makes it through waivers, and that wont happen.

Sosa has been clubbing this yr. His average is crappy, but his power and his RBI totals will garner a lot of attention in what promises to be a pretty shitty deadline. I would assume that the Rangers will get something good for him, so not a C level prospect, IMO

In terms of Wheeler, he is their closer for the time being and is shitting the bed. But at 29 and coming up on Free Agency, he should be available. The problem is, are you willing to send them something of value (as you said a B level or a Masterson level prospect) for a guy who's era is above 5 right now.

I terms of bringing in Buchholz, by all means, give it a try. But I think Theo is smarter than that, since he knows that Buchholz could be an ace for yrs to come and wont sacrifice his learning curve and confidence for one season.

[example1]

Okay. Couple points...

Schilling's first start will be on July 31st, ie Theo will have ZERO time to determine if he is ready or not. And if the yankees are still trailing you in 2 weeks when the waiver wire opens, you better believe nothing that can help you will get by waivers. So you have to consider Schilling a wild card.

In terms of Bonds, the Giants wont put him on the market prior to him breaking the record and with his knees and ankles barking, he might not break it within 2 weeks. Hence, unless he gets hot, the only way he moves is if he makes it through waivers, and that wont happen.

Sosa has been clubbing this yr. His average is crappy, but his power and his RBI totals will garner a lot of attention in what promises to be a pretty shitty deadline. I would assume that the Rangers will get something good for him, so not a C level prospect, IMO

In terms of Wheeler, he is their closer for the time being and is shitting the bed. But at 29 and coming up on Free Agency, he should be available. The problem is, are you willing to send them something of value (as you said a B level or a Masterson level prospect) for a guy who's era is above 5 right now.

I terms of bringing in Buchholz, by all means, give it a try. But I think Theo is smarter than that, since he knows that Buchholz could be an ace for yrs to come and wont sacrifice his learning curve and confidence for one season.

I agree for the most part, except that I don't think that giving a guy a shot at everything he's dreamed for is a recipe for collapse. Some players actually jump at the opportunity. It's what legends are made of. Ask Josh Beckett.

Fuck Barry Bonds. Don't go after Bonds and if you can't get him look at Teixiera. Get Teixiera right away. Send them Crisp, Lowell or Youkilis, Bowden, WMP, and Hansen. ANY combination of money and players not including Ellsbury or Buchholz. Bring Ellsbury up and plant him in the order, eventually moving him into the leadoff spot by the end of the year. Eventually... (ideally)...

Ellsbury
Pedroia
Manny (time to switch them up)
Ortiz
Teixiera
Drew
Youkilis
Varitek
Lugo

Last year they had essentially one worthwhile starting pitcher in Beckett. 06 Beckett. This year they have 07 Beckett and rookie year Dice-K. It looks pretty desperate when #3,4 and 5 are in there, but it has been worse and was worse last year. Their relievers have been largely awesome and are pitching like they have something to prove. If the sox manage to hold on to get into the playoffs it will largely have been thanks to the middle relievers, especially Okajima and, apparently, Manny Delcarmen.

After a few solid starts you bring Buchholz up, and he comes up into a very strong rotation of:

Beckett
Dice-K
Schilling
Wakefield
Buchholz

Deal Tavarez or Pineiro (plus $ if necessary). I know it is a risk to bring him up, but he's the best available pitching option now. I am hopeful that we will see Dice-K really step up and take care of business down the stretch the way he has in the past.

No need to wait for the deadline, Theo. Go ahead.

[riverside sluggers]

Long fucking night, lots of drama (not just tonight's newest suck fest by the Sox). Going to bed after I post this. With Jim Bowden having a man crush on Wily Mo, I wouldnt mind seeing this trade

Boston
right handed reliever Jon Rauch http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6620

Washington
Joel Pineiro (cash considerations)
Wily Mo Pena

[CrespoBlows]

Long fucking night, lots of drama (not just tonight's newest suck fest by the Sox). Going to bed after I post this. With Jim Bowden having a man crush on Wily Mo, I wouldnt mind seeing this trade

Boston
right handed reliever Jon Rauch http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6620

Washington
Joel Pineiro (cash considerations)
Wily Mo Pena

He's got a 6.10 ERA away from RFK.

[jacksonianmarch]

Millwood should be on the sox list. He's 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal paying him 11 mil a yr, but when he is healthy, he is a horse. Couple that with his resurgence this month and he could be had for a mid level prospect and the agreement to eat his salary.

Other pitchers to be available...

TOR- You could pry Towers away for nothing. He's a #5 at best, but he throws strikes and has the propensity to be a better option than Tavarez.

FLA- Dontrelle has gone backwards in his progression and may be available for the right price. He'd no longer warrant a Buchholz, but he may be worth an Ellsbury/Bowden combination.

CWS- Javy Vazquez is having a great season, ERA in the 3.77 range, K'ing 8.5 per 9 with a 1.08WHIP. He'd probably be pretty expensive since all of this is being done in the toughest division in baseball right now, but he'd be a major splash.

Contreras is likely on the cheap right now since he is struggling, but if he returns to dominance, he could be worthwhile.

Buehrle would take a TON to get, and at this point I dont think he is available.

John Garland might be available, we dont know. He'd be expensive too.

HOU- Oswalt and Sampson would be tough to pry away.

CIN- Harang wont be on the line, but you know who is pitching better? Arroyo, maybe...not.

That may be it, but if the sox get creative, they do have options.

[example1]

Millwood should be on the sox list. He's 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal paying him 11 mil a yr, but when he is healthy, he is a horse. Couple that with his resurgence this month and he could be had for a mid level prospect and the agreement to eat his salary.

Other pitchers to be available...

TOR- You could pry Towers away for nothing. He's a #5 at best, but he throws strikes and has the propensity to be a better option than Tavarez.

Towers: throws strikes! Wow. It isn't hard to find pitchers who can be a #5 and who don't walk an inordinate number of batters. Next.



FLA- Dontrelle has gone backwards in his progression and may be available for the right price. He'd no longer warrant a Buchholz, but he may be worth an Ellsbury/Bowden combination.

I like this idea, but probably not for Ellsbury/Bowden. Willis doesn't have anywhere near the dominant presence that Beckett had when the Sox traded HanRam and AniSanch. The Sox got Beckett, Lowell and Mota for 3 minor leaguers. Ellsbury/Bowden would be too much to give for Willis. I DO like the idea of Willis though, certainly as a potential #4 or #5.



CWS- Javy Vazquez is having a great season, ERA in the 3.77 range, K'ing 8.5 per 9 with a 1.08WHIP. He'd probably be pretty expensive since all of this is being done in the toughest division in baseball right now, but he'd be a major splash.


His value would be high because the White Sox know what the Sox are going through and will make sure they pay. I'm uncomfortable trading any serious talent into the AL Central. Those teams all have solid bases (Detroit, Cleveland, White Sox, Twins) and make me nervous. He would be a nice acquisition too, but I think because his name is in that middle-to-upper tier of pitchers he would cost too much.



Contreras is likely on the cheap right now since he is struggling, but if he returns to dominance, he could be worthwhile.


Couldn't the same thing be said about Schilling (who was more dominant than Contreras even dreamt of being) and Wakefield? I would think that any pitcher who suddenly returns to dominance would be worthwhile.



Buehrle would take a TON to get, and at this point I dont think he is available.


So... a non-issue then...



John Garland might be available, we dont know. He'd be expensive too.


Doubtful that he's available or worth the cost.



HOU- Oswalt and Sampson would be tough to pry away.


So... probably a no



CIN- Harang wont be on the line, but you know who is pitching better? Arroyo, maybe...not.

I would be happy if the Sox picked up Arroyo again. It isn't going to happen, but I wouldn't be mad.



That may be it, but if the sox get creative, they do have options.

You give a solid reason why all of these guys would be bad acquisitions, while making the argument that they are 'options' the Sox can explore. This team isn't hurting for average starting pitchers. Schilling and Wakefield are average when they are being inconsistent, above average when pitching well. Dice and Beckett are solid pitchers who can help the team win each time out.

Priorities on this team should be to add some legitimate HR power either to the lineup or the bench. Pitching should be 2nd.

[riverside sluggers]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=1012187

Last year the Sox tried to unload Wily Mo on the Astros. they might do it again this year, probably to try and pry away Wheeler or Qualls

On Buehrle, the White Sox wanted prospects such as Bucholz, Ellsbury and Lester. The Sox would prefer to give up prospects who arent "name" heavy such as Murphy, Moss, and Hansen

[example1]

On SoSH (I don't like pirating, but I do like to cite sources to utter speculation) the main speculation is about a deal with Pittsburgh. They are spinning all over the place with players like Doumit, Wilson, Marte, Xavier Nady, and Ian Snell.

I would take the last two, and take on some salary. Ian Snell would be a very nice addition as a #5 pitcher. Arroyo-esque in terms of effectiveness.

[ksushi]

I think your gonna have to live or die with Manny and Ortiz as far as homerun power and hope Drew gets hot. With Tavarez taking a #2 on the mound everytime out, Pitching has to be a priority. Wakefield is never going to be a #3 guy in our rotation. He's a 5 because of his tendency to be streaky. That basically leaves us with 3 #5 starters. We can't take that into the post-season and we don't know what Schilling gives us. We have to send out feelers on Oswalt and Willis. Those won't be the only names, the rumors are accurate sometimes, but they don't get nearly everything thats out there, we really have no idea who is going to be available, we can only guess. You have to think they'll do something to upgrade the staff.

[riverside sluggers]

On SoSH (I don't like pirating, but I do like to cite sources to utter speculation) the main speculation is about a deal with Pittsburgh. They are spinning all over the place with players like Doumit, Wilson, Marte, Xavier Nady, and Ian Snell.

I would take the last two, and take on some salary. Ian Snell would be a very nice addition as a #5 pitcher. Arroyo-esque in terms of effectiveness.

Sean MacAdamns of the Providence Journal did note that the Sox are interested in lefty Damaso Marte. As well as the asking price is too high for former closer Salomon Torres

[CrespoBlows]

I would take the last two, and take on some salary. Ian Snell would be a very nice addition as a #5 pitcher. Arroyo-esque in terms of effectiveness.

Snell as the fifth starter?

He's 25 years old, has a 3.31 ERA, a good strikeout ratio, and a lot of upside. He's not coming to Boston.

[jacksonianmarch]

Snell as the fifth starter?

He's 25 years old, has a 3.31 ERA, a good strikeout ratio, and a lot of upside. He's not coming to Boston.

no kidding. And he is in his second yr in the majors. The pirates wont deal a kid who they can have for the minimum next season too.

[ksushi]

If we get Ian Snell I will run naked from my house to yawkey way and do nude snow angels on the pavement.

[jacksonianmarch]

If we get Ian Snell I will run naked from my house to yawkey way and do nude snow angels on the pavement.

snow angels in july?

[ksushi]

I bet there is a better chance of snow on the deadline, than Ian Snell at the deadline.

Oswalt, be available, you handsome redneck, you.

[castigs850]

Kinda off topic but...

With all the losses this team has in one run games i think offense should be a higher priority than SP, although that needs help too. But on the top of this page in the article posted by riverside is says Tiexera is avalable.

how close is say

Lester/Bowden, Moss/WMP, and Lars Anderson?

[jacksonianmarch]

Kinda off topic but...

With all the losses this team has in one run games i think offense should be a higher priority than SP, although that needs help too. But on the top of this page in the article posted by riverside is says Tiexera is avalable.

how close is say

Lester/Bowden, Moss/WMP, and Lars Anderson?

That would certainly get it done IMO. Lars is a highly regarded prospect. WMP may not be what they are looking for since they already have a guy of his ilk in Nelson Cruz. But they would love either Lester or Bowden. I think that could get it done. But that also takes away your biggest power prospect and one of your troika of solid pitchers close to the show. Thats a big haul.

But, why do you say that the sox need a hitter? Their hitting is slumping right now, but if you dont improve that pitching, you'll need much more hitting. Case in point, when Gabbard reverts to the 5+ERA guy that his performance dictates, when Wakefield is tossing up a 6ERA and Tavarez is tossing up an 8+ ERA, will one guy really make all the difference? And 1b and 3b are 2 spots in the lineup that have been just fine.

[ksushi]

We'd have to send Youkilis or Lowell somewhere in the deal.

[jacksonianmarch]

We'd have to send Youkilis or Lowell somewhere in the deal.

and that wont be much of an upgrade if you deal off one of your most productive hitters.

[castigs850]

i guess you're right it's not all that necessary, but i think we really do need another middle of the lineup guy. And seeing as we would have to deal Lowell or Youk to finish that deal, what kind of SP help would a deal centered around one of those two bring back? i would have to figure a #3 or #4 type of guy. And wouldnt that be worth it?

[jacksonianmarch]

right now, Wake and Tavarez arent even pitching like #5's. If you can get a guy who can give you a mid 4's era and win half his decisions, you'll be doing pretty good.

[CrespoBlows]

What does everyone think about moving to a four man rotation?

[redsoxrules]

What does everyone think about moving to a four man rotation?

with the 4 being?

[CrespoBlows]

with the 4 being?

Dice-K, Beckett, Wakefield, Gabbard/Tavarez. (Eventually Schilling)

We could switch to a five in September if Buchholz is ready.

The four man rotation would depend on Francona's ability to remove starters at the 100-110 pitch count.

[castigs850]

i wouldnt mind if it werent for that fact that shilling can hardly make it two months in a full 5 man rotation before losing it and needing a break

[CrespoBlows]

i wouldnt mind if it werent for that fact that shilling can hardly make it two months in a full 5 man rotation before losing it and needing a break

Correct use of a pitcher can't prevent injuries all the time, but it can significantly reduce the chances of that happening. Schilling would probably need to be capped at 100 pitches.

[jacksonianmarch]

What does everyone think about moving to a four man rotation?

not a good idea considering you have Beckett and his recent history of arm/hand troubles, DiceK who is in his first season of pitching every 5 days, and then a rookie in the rotation all at the same time. If you had older horses, then maybe.

[example1]

not a good idea considering you have Beckett and his recent history of arm/hand troubles, DiceK who is in his first season of pitching every 5 days, and then a rookie in the rotation all at the same time. If you had older horses, then maybe.

a 4 man rotation would be a desperation move with little wiggle room for injuries.

I don't know... it's too early to go on the 4 man train.

EDIT: So, this is the type of stuff we end up talking about while the Sox are being "aggressive" on the market but there are absolutely NO leaks. I appreciate Theo's desire to keep things mum, but throw us a freaking bone!

[Coco's Disciples]

The Red Sox were apparently close to a deal for Kielty, a 31 year-old switch-hitting extra outfielder. He hasn't played much center since '02, so maybe the Sox have relaxed that requirement. Kielty was supposed to be moved in a three-team deal that would have sent Wily Mo Pena somewhere. The deal has stalled, but it's really starting to look like Pena is on the move. Per Tim Brown (Yahoo.com)

[castigs850]

Correct use of a pitcher can't prevent injuries all the time, but it can significantly reduce the chances of that happening. Schilling would probably need to be capped at 100 pitches.

even with a 100 pitch pitch count Curt would be spent after 4 starts in a 4 man rotation. Not necessarily injury but just fatigue in general

[ORS]

I'm surprised nobody picked this up yet. Commence the circle jerk......


I have heard from an industry source that the Red Sox are closing in on Teixeira. The price is high...one Red Sox starter, one major league reserve and one minor league pitcher with a big upside. You have to give quality to get quality. I have sent an e-mail to him asking if it is ok for me to mention the specific names.......

Added later
One everyday player who starts, one everyday player who is a reserve and one minor league pitcher not named Clay.

link (http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=20912&st=60)

My guess is that the everyday starter is Youk, who sat tonight, the bench player is WMP, hence the Kielty rumor, and the MiLB pitcher is Bowden. Who's onboard?

[CrespoBlows]

I want to, but I'll be unhappy when I have to clean that shit up, when that's exposed as a fabricated rumor.

[redsoxrules]

I'm surprised nobody picked this up yet. Commence the circle jerk......



link (http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=20912&st=60)

My guess is that the everyday starter is Youk, who sat tonight, the bench player is WMP, hence the Kielty rumor, and the MiLB pitcher is Bowden. Who's onboard?

i saw that too on the espn message board.....id do that trade in a minute

[Coco's Disciples]

I looked at the ESPN Message Board around this time last year, and not one of the "nearly completed" trades were done. I'll believe it when I see it.

EDIT: But anyways, here's my thoughts. Everybody loves Youk. I love Youk. But I'd deal him 10 times out of 10 if it gets us Teixiera. Youkilis isn't going to be a superstar in this league, but he has the ability to be a solid player (much more valuable as a 3B though). Pena has a lot of potential, but even if he does meet it, there's really no room for him with Ramirez through 08, Crisp/Ellsbury for the longterm future, and Drew through '11. Bowden is a very good pitching prospect, but you give him up for Teixiera. I love the deal if we keep Ellsbury AND Buchholz.

[schillingouttheks]

Do they need a ride to Logan? I'll help out...

[CrespoBlows]

I'd trade Ellsbury, if we could keep Bowden.

[redsoxrules]

Do they need a ride to Logan? I'll help out...

same here , il be at logan tomorrow night

[example1]

I'm surprised nobody picked this up yet. Commence the circle jerk......



link (http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=20912&st=60)

My guess is that the everyday starter is Youk, who sat tonight, the bench player is WMP, hence the Kielty rumor, and the MiLB pitcher is Bowden. Who's onboard?

Alright ORS. I saw this posted as well. Not sure what to think.

[example1]

I think it is a legitimate rumor. We know Teixiera is available. We know the Sox like his OBP and power skills. We know he is a gold-glover. It's a rumor, but the type of rumor that is worth talking about. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than an aggressive push for Jermaine Dye based on a lack of confidence in Drew.

The sox have the pieces to make this happen. My guess is that the rangers would want:
Youkilis, WMP, Lester/Bowden. I would like the Sox to increase the size of the package and somehow land either Gagne or Otsuka. It's asking a lot, but when at the market pick up extra supplies, right?

We all know the Sox are looking toward the future in terms of power. They know that regardless of whether manny comes around this year power-wise or not, they will need to replace his and Papi's power in the future. I consider Teixiera one of the premier power bats in baseball. The guy is a monster at the plate, but he's a good hitter with a good eye. he went 43HR /144 RBI two years ago. He just turned 27. Whatever it takes, get this guy.

Sox fans rightfully love Youkilis. He is a great player with a lot of value. That's why he has to go. It's not because he's less valuable--as a700 would have you believe--but because he is the type of player that is an example of how to hit for other players on the team, a guy who makes pitchers throw and works the count. He's a good hitter. If the Sox could deal Lowell I bet they would. But Texas will want Youkilis and the Sox will (hopefully) be able to pull the trigger.

This would be one BOLD muthafukin' move by Theo and would start to give us a new direction to build around for the next few years. Teixiera is one hell of a ball player. Over the last three years he has an OPS of .920 and .930 from the left and right side respectively. I would love the idea of Beckett and Teixiera as stars on this team for the future.

[Coco's Disciples]

I'd trade Ellsbury, if we could keep Bowden.

To be honest, I don't know much about Bowden. But after a glimpse of Ellsbury, it'd be hard letting that go. I think if we kept him he could be great for us.

[msubulldogs21]

This would be one BOLD muthafukin' move by Theo and would start to give us a new direction to build around for the next few years. Teixiera is one hell of a ball player. Over the last three years he has an OPS of .920 and .930 from the left and right side respectively. I would love the idea of Beckett and Teixiera as stars on this team for the future.

Getting Teixiera would be great. But if we do, I sure hope we don't lose him to free agency. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's a free agent after 08 right? If we aquire him hopefully we will committ to him being a guy to build around for the future and sign him to a long term deal. He will command a lot, but is worth the cash.

[riverside sluggers]

msu, I sure as hell would expect Theo not to sit idle (like he did with Beckett) to not let him hit free agency

This trade would kind of be essence of the Nomar trade. A fan favorite starter is traded mid season for in turn would be a big boost to this team. bah I could only dream to look ahead of an infield of Texeira, Pedroia, Lugo, Arod

[Coco's Disciples]

Texeira, Pedroia, Lugo, Arod

:D :D :D :D

[jacksonianmarch]

Teixiera is a young, switch hitting, gold glove, 1b who hits for power and average. You guys arent getting bargain basement pricing on him, especially this trading deadline since he is under contract for one more season.

WMP is a throw in these days. The sox cannot seem to GIVE him away, and I have said before that he Rangers already have WMP in Nelson Cruz. WMP wont be part of the package simply because the Rangers dont need nor want him.

The Rangers are going to want pitching. Youkilis would be a useful commodity as well, but if you were to get 1.5 yrs of Tex, you are gonna have to give up pitching and lots of it. I know the sox wont part with Buchholz and I find it hard to believe that the Rangers would want another wild lefty in Lester (the cancer doesnt help his stock either). So Bowden would be an absolute necessity.

I think any deal will be 4 parts.

Youk or Ellsbury
Bowden
X
X

The arent going to want a half season of Lowell, so stop right there on moving Lowell. If the sox dont want to part with Youkilis, they will have to part with Ellsbury

As I said before, Bowden is a necessity

In terms of the other 2 spots, I think both would need to be pitchers. One spot would be Cox vs Hansen since both have this high upside pen arm quality while they are both getting the shit kicked out of them in the minors.

And the final spot would be a pitcher as well, this time a starter. Kris Johnson, Justin Masterson, or Daniel Bard.

So overall...

Youk or Ellsbury
Bowden
Cox or Hansen
Johnson, Bard or Masterson

that would get it done right now. If you wait until next yr's deadline, it may be cheaper.

[example1]

Teixiera is a young, switch hitting, gold glove, 1b who hits for power and average. You guys arent getting bargain basement pricing on him, especially this trading deadline since he is under contract for one more season.

WMP is a throw in these days. The sox cannot seem to GIVE him away, and I have said before that he Rangers already have WMP in Nelson Cruz. WMP wont be part of the package simply because the Rangers dont need nor want him.

The Rangers are going to want pitching. Youkilis would be a useful commodity as well, but if you were to get 1.5 yrs of Tex, you are gonna have to give up pitching and lots of it. I know the sox wont part with Buchholz and I find it hard to believe that the Rangers would want another wild lefty in Lester (the cancer doesnt help his stock either). So Bowden would be an absolute necessity.

I think any deal will be 4 parts.

Youk or Ellsbury
Bowden
X
X

The arent going to want a half season of Lowell, so stop right there on moving Lowell. If the sox dont want to part with Youkilis, they will have to part with Ellsbury

As I said before, Bowden is a necessity

In terms of the other 2 spots, I think both would need to be pitchers. One spot would be Cox vs Hansen since both have this high upside pen arm quality while they are both getting the shit kicked out of them in the minors.

And the final spot would be a pitcher as well, this time a starter. Kris Johnson, Justin Masterson, or Daniel Bard.

So overall...

Youk or Ellsbury
Bowden
Cox or Hansen
Johnson, Bard or Masterson

that would get it done right now. If you wait until next yr's deadline, it may be cheaper.

I'm still pretty sure it would be something like Youkilis, Bowden/Lester, WMP, plus one other player.

I think Texas will (and should) want Lester, as he is more developed and could potentially add to their team this year. Despite your talking about WMP as a "throw in" he is certainly an intreguing throw in with the potential to hit 25 hr (he averages that per 162 games). He's a very similar player to Marcus Thames. They share 25+ HR power, lots of K's, low average, .311 OBPs, high .400s SLGs. I think if the Tigers made a deal they would be okay with dealing Thames but also that another team would find him useful.

All this talk of WMP being a worthless pile of garbage we WANT to get rid of is absurd. I can think of a few roster spots on the Yankees that he could take, and which the Yankees would certainly give to him. I can think of a lot of teams that wouldn't mind having a player who can play all three OF positions and hit the ball like WMP does. He simply needs regular at bats to see what he can do. 127 is simply not enough, but last year he had an .840 OPS when given playing time. Not bad for a guy who people would happily drop from this team. He's trade bait for a reason.

[CrespoBlows]

To be honest, I don't know much about Bowden. But after a glimpse of Ellsbury, it'd be hard letting that go. I think if we kept him he could be great for us.

I don't see him being anything more than an empty .300 hitter with OK patience. I don't know how good his glove is, but with the way Coco Crisp is playing in CF, you can't bench him.

[ksushi]

I'm still pretty sure it would be something like Youkilis, Bowden/Lester, WMP, plus one other player.

I think Texas will (and should) want Lester, as he is more developed and could potentially add to their team this year. Despite your talking about WMP as a "throw in" he is certainly an intreguing throw in with the potential to hit 25 hr (he averages that per 162 games). He's a very similar player to Marcus Thames. They share 25+ HR power, lots of K's, low average, .311 OBPs, high .400s SLGs. I think if the Tigers made a deal they would be okay with dealing Thames but also that another team would find him useful.

All this talk of WMP being a worthless pile of garbage we WANT to get rid of is absurd. I can think of a few roster spots on the Yankees that he could take, and which the Yankees would certainly give to him. I can think of a lot of teams that wouldn't mind having a player who can play all three OF positions and hit the ball like WMP does. He simply needs regular at bats to see what he can do. 127 is simply not enough, but last year he had an .840 OPS when given playing time. Not bad for a guy who people would happily drop from this team. He's trade bait for a reason.


The problem with WMP isn't his talent. In 2004, he hit like 25 HR's in 300 AB's. He obviously has monster talent. Talent isn't everything though. The major league success has as much to do with making adjustments as it does raw skill. Pena can't do that. He can succeed in certain situations where he has to be thrown a fastball, and against pitchers who really don't have much other than gas, but his AB's are embarrassingly bad. It looks like he has the memory of a goldfish and just forgets the pitch before and just keeps looking for the same thing. He can be setup easily and breaking balls are a totally new concept to this guy.

He needs consistent playing time because he needs to develop his ability to get in good AB's. Problem is, he is 26, and for a guy with nothing more than raw talent he is pretty old. He has no options and no value because he can't learn in a starting job for a major league team with any dignity and has zero value as a bench player.

I think we should just send him to AAA through waivers and if someone claims him, someone claims him.

[ORS]

Teixiera is a young, switch hitting, gold glove, 1b who hits for power and average. You guys arent getting bargain basement pricing on him, especially this trading deadline since he is under contract for one more season.
We all know what Teixeira is, so save us the mental masturbation. That information is from a credible poster who visits this board and is not proned to flights of fancy. Besides, you need to be right about something a couple of times before I remove the grain of salt required for your posts.

[msubulldogs21]

He can be setup easily and breaking balls are a totally new concept to this guy.

In a way, Wily Mo kind of reminds me of Pedro Cerrano from "Major League". He can crush fastballs 500 feet, but has some terrible swings at breaking balls and no plate discipline.

[example1]

Nothing new, but it is an argument that some of us have been making here for awhile...

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Sox+Beat%3A+Sox+can't+win+nu mbers+game&articleId=f0456642-feb6-4492-bdba-e0f4ff3448d4



"The Sox can turn to the recent ensemble of World Series winners. The 2006 Cardinals went 25-36 down the stretch. The 2005 White Sox endured a 23-25 spell. The 2004 Red Sox withstood a 28-31 spell that ran from May into July. The 2003 Marlins started the season with a 19-29 record.

"No team is going to stay hot (all year)," said White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen. "We went wire-to-wire (in first place in 2005), but we weren't hot all the way long. We had some ups and downs. Everyone in baseball is like that."

"Most teams that win 100 or more games go through a stretch of 40 or more games when they play below .500. In fact, the last four world champions have," agreed Epstein. "It's a common characteristic of a really good team to play a stretch of over a month below .500. It's hard to avoid, and hopefully this is our stretch, and we find our way out of it."

Basically, they're scoring more and giving up less than most of the teams they play. THey have just been unlucky.

[Rdsxmbnt]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/22/special_assignment_scouts/?page=1


The Sox haven't been willing to trade Clay Buchholz or Jacoby Ellsbury, two names they've heard often from the White Sox, Rangers, and Braves in discussions for lefthander Mark Buehrle (who ended up re-signing with Chicago), Teixeira, and catcher-first baseman Jarrod Saltalamacchia, respectively.

[pats55sox45]

In a way, Wily Mo kind of reminds me of Pedro Cerrano from "Major League". He can crush fastballs 500 feet, but has some terrible swings at breaking balls and no plate discipline.

that seems like a pretty fair analogy
although cerrano was at least decent on defense

[pats55sox45]

Teixiera is a young, switch hitting, gold glove, 1b who hits for power and average. You guys arent getting bargain basement pricing on him, especially this trading deadline since he is under contract for one more season.

WMP is a throw in these days. The sox cannot seem to GIVE him away, and I have said before that he Rangers already have WMP in Nelson Cruz. WMP wont be part of the package simply because the Rangers dont need nor want him.

The Rangers are going to want pitching. Youkilis would be a useful commodity as well, but if you were to get 1.5 yrs of Tex, you are gonna have to give up pitching and lots of it. I know the sox wont part with Buchholz and I find it hard to believe that the Rangers would want another wild lefty in Lester (the cancer doesnt help his stock either). So Bowden would be an absolute necessity.

I think any deal will be 4 parts.

Youk or Ellsbury
Bowden
X
X

The arent going to want a half season of Lowell, so stop right there on moving Lowell. If the sox dont want to part with Youkilis, they will have to part with Ellsbury

As I said before, Bowden is a necessity

In terms of the other 2 spots, I think both would need to be pitchers. One spot would be Cox vs Hansen since both have this high upside pen arm quality while they are both getting the shit kicked out of them in the minors.

And the final spot would be a pitcher as well, this time a starter. Kris Johnson, Justin Masterson, or Daniel Bard.

So overall...

Youk or Ellsbury
Bowden
Cox or Hansen
Johnson, Bard or Masterson

that would get it done right now. If you wait until next yr's deadline, it may be cheaper.

my idea in its own thread on here was to involve a third team to give lowell to, so we wouldn't hafta give up as much

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/07/sox_scouting_ve.html

Sox/Dodgers trade?


Sox scouting Vegas
By Nick Cafardo, Globe Staff
Red Sox special assistant Allard Baird has been scouting the Las Vegas 51s, the Los Angeles Dodgers Triple-A affiliate. Baird was recently in Tacoma watching the 51s which are a talented team.

The Sox have always liked third baseman Andy LaRoche, a strong right-handed hitter who is hitting .302 with 12 homers and 35 RBIs after a stint up with the Dodgers earlier this season.

The Dodgers have been looking for relief help.

[redsoxrules]

fuck no

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

fuck no

Whats wrong with Andy LaRoche?

I think of the Sox interest in the Dodgers farm as being part of a 3-way deal. The Dodgers have James Loney at 1st so I have a hard time seeing there interest in Teixeira. However the Red Sox could spin relief help to the Dodgers (Hansen, Delcarmen, other prospects, who knows) for Andy LaRoche who would be part of a LaRoche and (Ellsbury, Bowden, Youkilis, etc etc) for Teixeira. Maybe thats far fetched.

[redsoxrules]

Whats wrong with Andy LaRoche?

I think of the Sox interest in the Dodgers farm as being part of a 3-way deal. The Dodgers have James Loney at 1st so I have a hard time seeing there interest in Teixeira. However the Red Sox could spin relief help to the Dodgers (Hansen, Delcarmen, other prospects, who knows) for Andy LaRoche who would be part of a LaRoche and (Ellsbury, Bowden, Youkilis, etc etc) for Teixeira. Maybe thats far fetched.

we dont need a 3rd baseman and we dont need to screw our bulpen up

[schillingouttheks]

Agreed. Andy LaRoche would be nice to have, but I'm not willing to break up our bullpen. I'd trade Hansen or any younger arms for him (including Bard), but Delcarmen is a key piece of our bullpen now.

[ksushi]

I think I smell a three team trade of some kind happening here... Hansen for LaRoche? Lowell to Minnesota, Prospects to Texas along with Ellsbury, Bowden and WMP. LaRoche and Texiera to Boston. LaRoche could very much improve our bench.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I think I smell a three team trade of some kind happening here... Hansen for LaRoche? Lowell to Minnesota, Prospects to Texas along with Ellsbury, Bowden and WMP. LaRoche and Texiera to Boston. LaRoche could very much improve our bench.

Or LaRoche might be shipped to another team in the 3-team deal.

Thats what I'm getting at

[riverside sluggers]

we dont need a 3rd baseman and we dont need to screw our bulpen up

Who's to say that the relief would be coming from the Boston's corps? It could very well be from their minor leagues

[redsoxrules]

Who's to say that the relief would be coming from the Boston's corps? It could very well be from their minor leagues

the dodgers are looking for releif help, their not gona look in the minor leagues

[example1]

we dont need a 3rd baseman and we dont need to screw our bulpen up

Yeah, who wants one of the top 25 prospects in baseball (as rated in the BA Prospect Handbook, 2007), and the Dodgers top prospect (same source)? :rolleyes:

This team certainly couldn't use him since we have an aging, expensive and traditionally bad 2nd half player at 3B now. He would be the Sox top offensive prospect immediately.

Trade bullpen help for him. YES. Do it.

Would you trade Julian Tavarez for Jacoby Ellsbury? I sure as hell would. I would probably move Delcarman, though he is an important piece to this season--it seems--it would be a move for the future.

[redsoxrules]

Yeah, who wants one of the top 25 prospects in baseball (as rated in the BA Prospect Handbook, 2007), and the Dodgers top prospect (same source)? :rolleyes:

This team certainly couldn't use him since we have an aging, expensive and traditionally bad 2nd half player at 3B now. He would be the Sox top offensive prospect immediately.

Trade bullpen help for him. YES. Do it.

Would you trade Julian Tavarez for Jacoby Ellsbury? I sure as hell would. I would probably move Delcarman, though he is an important piece to this season--it seems--it would be a move for the future.

were looking to win the world series here , and laroche isnt the answer

[jacksonianmarch]

Now, one deal being discussed right now is between the Braves and Rangers. Salty, who is essentially a young Tex, plus Elvis Andrus who is a solid middle infield prospect would likely headline a package for Tex. I could see that since Salty could replace Tex.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Could this possibly be a prospect for a prospect scenario???

Since Coco Crisp has come on with his bat and played incredible defense...perhaps the Red Sox feel they don't have a spot for Jacoby Ellsbury. Juan Pierre certainly isn't the long term solution for the Dodgers just as Mike Lowell isn't our long term solution.

Jacoby Ellsbury for Andy LaRoche?

LaRoche could technically jump right up to the major league team and replace Wily Mo Pena as the right handed bat we need. Not to mention he can spell Lowell and Youkilis.

[jacksonianmarch]

you want to take a hot prospect and relegate him to Hinske duty?

[example1]

were looking to win the world series here , and laroche isnt the answer

What do you mean? Why isn't he the answer? He has as much potential in any particular situation as Hinske does, and certainly a lifetime of production after that.

I don't get you man. The whole point is to make your team better. The FO knows that they can do things to put themselves in a position to win the WS, but baseball is a fickle game and the best team does not always win. Their number 1 goal is to be viable year after year. Their number 2 goal is to be able to make a WS push if necessary.

I think that without knowing what the proposal is you are jumping the gun a bit on a 'don't need him' approach. Who doesn't need a guy like LaRoche. The Dodgers have a good system, so to be their best prospect is pretty impressive.

It's a rumor, no big deal. I think if the sox can get a guy like LaRoche for bullpen help not named Papelbon, Okajima or Delcarmen then they should do it.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

you want to take a hot prospect and relegate him to Hinske duty?

If it helps us get more production off the bench and helps us on our way to a possible World Series.....well yes. I could assume he would get plenty of playing time....our bench players see a fair amount of games.

[example1]

you want to take a hot prospect and relegate him to Hinske duty?

For a season until Lowell moves on. The Sox would save the 8 million that Lowell would ask for and have this year's version of Andy Marte in the wings.

The point is that, as mentioned above, there is likely something in place involving either Youkilis or Lowell. Probably Lowell, as LaRoche is a 3B.

[ksushi]

LaRoche for Ellsbury? That might be a really good trade... I'd be kinda happy if we did that.

[jacksonianmarch]

LaRoche for Ellsbury? That might be a really good trade... I'd be kinda happy if we did that.

it may take more. LaRoche is a legit middle of the order hitter. Ellsbury is a top of the order guy who will not hit for power unless he pries the lock off Giambi's locker. I would assume that a middle of the order bat is more important, but that may be just me.

Also, for consideration purposes...

The Dodgers have Pierre signed for 4 more yrs.
The Dodgers have Matt Kemp
The Dodgers have Andre Ethier

Ellsbury doesnt have the potential of either of the final 2, and Loney occupies 1b, so you cannot convert them. I dont think they will be a solid trading partner.

[riverside sluggers]

I dont think they will be a solid trading partner.

Yes we know Jacko, beacuse the Sox farm is crap :rolleyes:

[CrespoBlows]

Yes we know Jacko, beacuse the Sox farm is crap :rolleyes:


Also, for consideration purposes...

The Dodgers have Pierre signed for 4 more yrs.
The Dodgers have Matt Kemp
The Dodgers have Andre Ethier

Read the whole thing for once.

[riverside sluggers]

For a season until Lowell moves on. The Sox would save the 8 million that Lowell would ask for and have this year's version of Andy Marte in the wings.

The point is that, as mentioned above, there is likely something in place involving either Youkilis or Lowell. Probably Lowell, as LaRoche is a 3B.

Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus, speculates mind you, a Wily Mo for LaRoche deal. Damn I do that 10 times out fo 10
http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6499

[BSN07]

Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus, speculates mind you, a Wily Mo for LaRoche deal. Damn I do that 10 times out fo 10
http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6499

That might be the all time steal ever.

[ksushi]

Watch him have a clause in his contract that inflates his salary to 30 million per year if ever traded for Wily Mo.

I would ask for that.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus, speculates mind you, a Wily Mo for LaRoche deal. Damn I do that 10 times out fo 10
http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6499

Both Wily Mo Pena and Andy LaRoche have 25-30 HR potential. They are about the same age with the major difference being Pena has much more experience at the MLB level. I would say LaRoche looks more like a .300 hitter where Pena is more of a .250 hitter. I do know Pena is a disaster in the outfield so that could be the big deciding factor. Unless of course LaRoche is nothing special on the defensive side as well (not sure if anyone knows).

[schillingouttheks]

Pena's an average defensive centerfielder.

[example1]

So, with the way things look now the Sox aren't likely to make any significant moves at the deadline. Numerous reports suggest the Sox won't meet TX requirements for Teixeira--which were said to be two of Lester, Buchholz and Ellsbury.

It is different from my tune last week, but I feel like this team is in pretty good shape overall. The problem last year was a number of poorly timed injuries before the trading deadline, and then trying to coast with the injured team into the playoffs. Without any momentum or pitching they got beaten around.

This team is different.

--Lowell and Youkilis contribute in every facet of the game. Neither of them is Teixeira, but they are both reasonable alternatives on both sides of the ball.
--Lugo is hitting again, and Pedroia is going to be pesky whenever he's at the plate, and is an excellent fielder.
--Varitek is having what MUST be called a successful season, one that most people here haven't mentioned. He is 5th among all MLB catchers in OPS (4th in OBP)(1st in P/PA). This being the 3rd year of a deal in which most people thought he would be nearly ineffective at this point in his career. Not only has he managed to produce at the plate, but he is having a great season defensively and with pitch-calling. Add to that his need to foster the development of Dice-K and Okajima, Delcarmen, Papelbon, while providing the backstop for a largely revamped and DOMINANT bullpen.
--Crisp's progress has been fun to watch, and barring injury I see no reason he won't keep doing this. If he gets injured there are OF alternatives who are in the middle of good seasons (including Brandon Moss, who has yet to get a shot) and Ellsbury--if he can get healthy--has at least been exposed to Fenway if needed.

The bullpen has been absolutely dominant, way beyond my wildest expectations. Ultimately, the biggest acquisitions of the free agent season may be Manny Ramirez's power coming off the DL and Schilling returning healthy.

The best idea might be to try and trade a guy like Tavarez or WMP to get either bullpen or minor league talent. The more minor league talent a team has the easier it is to get the key piece next season and the year after if they lack it. This team doesn't lack any key pieces enough to warrant trading away 2 of the top 3.

[riverside sluggers]

Right now Im thinking the only deal will be dealing off Wily Mo and trading for a new backup OF... if they make anything happen that is

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/27/the_price_isnt_right_for_gms/
The Sox continue to be a brick wall in front of their top prospects, even in deals with power hitters like Mark Texeira and Adam Dunn

The Texas Rangers asked for Clay Bucholz, Jacoby Ellsbury and a 3rd player. That 3rd player might be Jon Lester. No surprise but the D-Rays asked for the moon for Ty Wigginton--- Manny Delcarmen, and Justin Masterson :lol:

[redsoxrules]

What do you mean? Why isn't he the answer? He has as much potential in any particular situation as Hinske does, and certainly a lifetime of production after that.

I don't get you man. The whole point is to make your team better. The FO knows that they can do things to put themselves in a position to win the WS, but baseball is a fickle game and the best team does not always win. Their number 1 goal is to be viable year after year. Their number 2 goal is to be able to make a WS push if necessary.

I think that without knowing what the proposal is you are jumping the gun a bit on a 'don't need him' approach. Who doesn't need a guy like LaRoche. The Dodgers have a good system, so to be their best prospect is pretty impressive.

It's a rumor, no big deal. I think if the sox can get a guy like LaRoche for bullpen help not named Papelbon, Okajima or Delcarmen then they should do it.

so does every top prospect becomes a superstar? id rather go for a proven player at this point, if you can get laroche for a great deal , then yes do it . but if thats the only deal we were to make at the deadline, this team wouldn't be improved

[redsoxrules]

in other news , kenny lofton back to cleveland

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070727&content_id=2112607&vkey=trade2007&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Khan]

Somebody just told me Lofton went to Tex. I think he had his head up his ass and ment Clev. Just want to confirm where Lofton is?

[Coco's Disciples]

Lofton already was in Texas. He went to Cleveland.

[Khan]

Yeah, this guy had it flipped.

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272007/sports/yankees/its_ty_for_trade_yankees_george_king.htm

The Yankees and Devil Rays are moving closer to a Proctor for Wigginton trade

[Coco's Disciples]

What will Joe Torre do without Scott Proctor?????

[schillingouttheks]

Wait a minute. So the Rays have the nerve to ask for Delcarmen AND Masterson from the Sox for Wigginton, but they'll send him to the Yanks just for Proctor? What the fuck?

[riverside sluggers]

Beats me

Remember back when the Sox biefly had Andy Marte? They tried to deal him off to Tampa Bay for Lugo. The Sox quickly shot down Tampa's proposed deal of Andy Marte, Bronson Arroyo and a 3rd player

[TheKilo]

Wait a minute. So the Rays have the nerve to ask for Delcarmen AND Masterson from the Sox for Wigginton, but they'll send him to the Yanks just for Proctor? What the fuck?

Why are we upset about this?

[schillingouttheks]

Why are we upset about this?

I don't really give a shit, it's just kind of weird how teams always seem to be willing to accept shit from the Yanks. Last year with Craig Wilson too. Bobby Abreu was a salary dump, but still.

[riverside sluggers]

Some minor moves here:

roto

Padres signed infielder Shea Hillenbrand to a minor league contract.
Hillenbrand may be called up to serve as a reserve next month, but it'd be bad news for the Padres if he had any fantasy value at all. Viewed strictly as a pinch-hitter, he could be an asset, given his ability to make contact.


Brewers acquired RHP Seth McClung from the Devil Rays for RHP Grant Balfour.
The Brewers will see if a change of scenery does McClung some good. McClung has the arm of a No. 3 starter or a closer, but the major league results of a typical Devil Rays hurler. Command is the biggest problem. He had a 1.99 ERA for Triple-A Durham this season, but that came with 43 walks in 58 2/3 innings. The Brewers will send him to Triple-A for now. Mike Maddux can try to turn him into the next Derrick Turnbow next spring.

Devil Rays acquired RHP Grant Balfour from the Brewers for RHP Seth McClung.
McClung had an ERA in Triple-A under 2.00 pretty much all year, but the Rays never provided him another chance after his disastrous spring, suggesting that they had given up on him. We'd still call them the losers in this deal, but at least they're getting another interesting reliever. Balfour had a 1.87 ERA and a 68/15 K/BB ratio in 43 1/3 innings between Double- and Triple-A this year before struggling in three appearances for the Brewers. He's undergone major shoulder and elbow surgeries and is a candidate for more arm problems, but there's a chance he'll establish himself as one of the Rays' top relievers. It wouldn't take much.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have no interest in Wiggy. NONE. Phillips is playing hot right now. Shelley Duncan has Wiggy's power and then some. We are stacked at 2nd, 3rd and OF. I dont want to give up what we NEED in bullpen and get a guy who will be an upgrade over Cairo and thats it.

[riverside sluggers]

Wiggy has pop, but no glove. Hed be an adventure for you guys to watch him in the field

roto

The Yankees have had serious discussions with the Rangers about Eric Gagne, two major league sources told Newsday.

The Rangers have interest in Ian Kennedy and Jeffrey Marquez. They might want those two and more in return for their closer. Since they're not insisting on Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain -- as they were in Mark Teixeira talks -- perhaps a trade is a possibility. The Yankees have about as much minor league pitching depth as any team in baseball.


Dan Johnson has been out of the starting lineup four straight games and isn't sure about his future with the A's.

"I really don't know what's going on," Johnson said. "I'm getting stir crazy right now. It's just the way it is, I'm still getting paid to play the game - or watch the game, I guess - so I can't complain. I still have a job. I'd just like to participate more at my job." A deal is looming as a larger possibility. ESPN's Buster Olney thinks he'll go to the Yankeees.

[example1]

Wiggy has pop, but no glove. Hed be an adventure for you guys to watch him in the field

roto

That would be a great move for the Yankees. When's Gagne's next scheduled year-long DL stint?

I hope Gagne likes playing poker and hanging out with guys like Carl Pavano while watching the Yankees on TV.

Clearly, I have no faith that Gagne would be a long term impact for the Yankees. It is very much how I fell about Dotel going somewhere too. He's great when he's throwing, but how long can you reasonably expect that--at the cost of two decent young 'specs??

[TheKilo]

Ty Wigginton is not the answer for the Yanks. I wouldn't say the Yanks are "stacked" in the OF OR 2nd, but they don't need him.

If they want to trade away Proctor more power to them.

Thing is, if Proctor thinks he's overworked in NYY he'd pitch every fucking day in Tampa. He'd easily be their best reliever.

[ksushi]

Is Gagne going to the Yankees? I feel so out of the loop...

[jacksonianmarch]

Is Gagne going to the Yankees? I feel so out of the loop...

sounds like they are close. The names being tossed around are Kennedy and Marquez. i would be WICKED pissed if we dealt those 2 away for a 3 month rental for a pennant race that we are still trailing by a wide margin. If they make this deal, they need to sign Gagne for a few seasons. because Kennedy will be a good one, and adding a guy like Marquez, who is a young sinkerballer who is pitching very well in AA, would be an absolute travesty.

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/sports/comments/rays-deal-cantu-to-reds/

The Reds have acquired Jorge Cantu from the D-Rays for lefty Brian Shackelford and righty Calvin Medlock

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272007/sports/yankees/its_ty_for_trade_yankees_george_king.htm

The Yankees and Devil Rays are moving closer to a Proctor for Wigginton trade


Ty Wigginton has been scratched from Saturday's lineup, likely because of a trade.

The Red Sox have to be pleased to see Wigginton out of there with them throwing left-hander Jon Lester tonight. Boston is one of the teams that has been linked to Wigginton, but it's more likely that he's going to the Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers or Twins.

update from nesn, damn unexpected trade... Wigginton to the Astros for Dan Wheeler. He is actually a former D-Ray, having pitched for them in parts of 3 seasons from 1999-2001
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6331/career;_ylt=AnPAnX0jjjLBpu43JCwMvdKFCLcF

[example1]

update from nesn, damn unexpected trade... Wigginton to the Astros for Dan Wheeler. He is actually a former D-Ray, having pitched for them in parts of 3 seasons from 1999-2001
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6331/career;_ylt=AnPAnX0jjjLBpu43JCwMvdKFCLcF

Pretty meaningless deal when it's all said and done.

[jacksonianmarch]

Brett Gardner, the CF for AAA Scranton who is essentially an Ellsbury type prospect with less power was held out of the lineup today. At the same time, Jeff Marquez and Ian Kennedy both threw today and went 6 innings apiece. Both of them were considered possible moving parts and their starting today likely means that nothing is imminent with either of them.

[TheKilo]

Brett Gardner, the CF for AAA Scranton who is essentially an Ellsbury type prospect with less power was held out of the lineup today. At the same time, Jeff Marquez and Ian Kennedy both threw today and went 6 innings apiece. Both of them were considered possible moving parts and their starting today likely means that nothing is imminent with either of them.

Wait, just because they threw on their scheduled days means they aren't going to be traded?

How in the fuck does this make any sense at all?

[jacksonianmarch]

Wait, just because they threw on their scheduled days means they aren't going to be traded?

How in the fuck does this make any sense at all?

That is not what I said at all Kilo. I said that their starting today likely means nothing is imminent with them. If there was a deal that was imminent, they would not have made their start. Just like Gardner if he is in fact being dealt. Doesnt mean they wont strike a deal tomorrow, just saying, right now. The fact that Gardner, who is not hurt or being rested to the best of my knowledge, was held out 2 days before the deadline and right when the reports of gagne to the yankees comes out, could mean something. All I am saying is, IF Gardner and Marquez are getting dealt, why hold one guy out and let the other, a pitcher, throw? It doesnt make sense.

Now, what I am worried about is that Gardner is moving with Horne for Gagne. That would be a monumental mistake IMO. Horne is solid. I'd move the younger, safer bet, but lower ceilinged Marquez before I consider moving Horne.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Brett Gardner, the CF for AAA Scranton who is essentially an Ellsbury type prospect with less power was held out of the lineup today. At the same time, Jeff Marquez and Ian Kennedy both threw today and went 6 innings apiece. Both of them were considered possible moving parts and their starting today likely means that nothing is imminent with either of them.

Ellsbury type prospect?? So Brett Gardner is considered a top 20 prospect in the minors??

[jacksonianmarch]

Ellsbury type prospect?? So Brett Gardner is considered a top 20 prospect in the minors??

No. But he is very similar. Gardner is technically faster in "speed rankings" which are mostly made off of 40 and 60yd times, but Ellsbury is the better baserunner as evidenced by his huge SB lead. Gardner takes more walks but also K's more. Ellsbury hits more doubles while Gardner is mostly a singles hitter. Neither will hit a lot of homers. Neither will be big SLG guys. Both could get on base their fair share and both will steal bases. But Ellsbury is clearly the better prospect, no question. But they are rather similar.

[TheKilo]

That is not what I said at all Kilo. I said that their starting today likely means nothing is imminent with them. If there was a deal that was imminent, they would not have made their start. Just like Gardner if he is in fact being dealt. Doesnt mean they wont strike a deal tomorrow, just saying, right now. The fact that Gardner, who is not hurt or being rested to the best of my knowledge, was held out 2 days before the deadline and right when the reports of gagne to the yankees comes out, could mean something. All I am saying is, IF Gardner and Marquez are getting dealt, why hold one guy out and let the other, a pitcher, throw? It doesnt make sense.

Now, what I am worried about is that Gardner is moving with Horne for Gagne. That would be a monumental mistake IMO. Horne is solid. I'd move the younger, safer bet, but lower ceilinged Marquez before I consider moving Horne.

Haha why would that make a deal less imminent? You're telling me they wouldn't make a trade with the Yankees because Kennedy and Marquez pitched today?

Do you read what you write sometimes?

[jacksonianmarch]

Haha why would that make a deal less imminent? You're telling me they wouldn't make a trade with the Yankees because Kennedy and Marquez pitched today?

Do you read what you write sometimes?

that is not what I am saying.

I am saying the yankees wouldnt start a player if a deal was imminent. Why risk sending the kid out there and getting hurt if a deal was on the table?

[jacksonianmarch]

Just heard one of those "The radio from XYZ said THIS TRADE IS DONE"

Take it for what it is worth, but News Radio 1080 KRLD in Dallas announced that the yankees will send Brett Gardner and Tyler Clippard to Texas for Gagne.

[TheKilo]

Just heard one of those "The radio from XYZ said THIS TRADE IS DONE"

Take it for what it is worth, but News Radio 1080 KRLD in Dallas announced that the yankees will send Brett Gardner and Tyler Clippard to Texas for Gagne.

That's a horseshit deal for the Rangers.

[redsoxrules]

That's a horseshit deal for the Rangers.


yeah really, why does every team bend down for the yanks

[schillingouttheks]

yeah really, why does every team bend down for the yanks

Gagne, Craig Wilson, the Wigginton offer, Abreu (even though it was a salary dump they could have gotten better).... sigh. This is stupid.

[CrespoBlows]

Bogus.

http://yesnetwork.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=yesnetwork&tid=14845

It's a YES Network trade idea. The fact that no one has picked this up, lends more weight to that fact. The original post was over at prosportsdaily.com, it was posted over two hours ago.

[jacksonianmarch]

We'll see if it is true. I dont think it is. But of all the entities, Gagne is the one that must be dealt since he is a FA. And with his insistence on being a closer next season, there is nearly no chance of him being any more than just a rental. So this hurts his value anyway. I dont think Gagne will bring any major prospects and who knows, Clippard may be the best they can get.

[TheKilo]

We'll see if it is true. I dont think it is. But of all the entities, Gagne is the one that must be dealt since he is a FA. And with his insistence on being a closer next season, there is nearly no chance of him being any more than just a rental. So this hurts his value anyway. I dont think Gagne will bring any major prospects and who knows, Clippard may be the best they can get.

If Linebrink can fetch 3 prospects the rangers can get better than Tyler fucking Clippard.

[TheKilo]

lol @ The YES boards

"Throw in Tex and you got a deal"

[jacksonianmarch]

If Linebrink can fetch 3 prospects the rangers can get better than Tyler fucking Clippard.

Clippard and Inman are pretty much the same prospect.

[schillingouttheks]

Haha, I read that same line and closed the window. I lost interest in reading the rest.

[TheKilo]

Haha, I read that same line and closed the window. I lost interest in reading the rest.

lol

The Yanks throw in Joba and then you may have a deal.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont like the idea of dealing any of our prospects for a 3 month rental when we are 6 games out of a playoff spot. I said earlier in the yr that a season where we became sellers wouldnt be the worst thing. The WORST thing is getting close enough to be buyers but not close enough to make any noise. This is where we are standing now. We sell our souls for this season and then make up half of the deficit while watching the playoffs. I'd take this team to war and see what happens. No moves right now. Ride it out and see if someone floats on the waiver wire if we get close.

[riverside sluggers]

Clippard and Inman are pretty much the same prospect.

The Padres still made off better off in a deal for a set up man who's Ks are decling and HR's are stacking up. They got Inman along with 2 quality relief prospects, one of which is already in the Padres' pen

The Rangers got for an all-star type closer-- Clippard who had a cup of coffee in the majors (6.33 ERA in 6 starts for NY), and some guy named Brett Gardner that up until today, Ive never head of when discussing top prospects. I bet your bottom dollar that Texas had demanded Ellsbury or Lester for Gagne

[example1]

The Padres still made off better off in a deal for a set up man who's Ks are decling and HR's are stacking up. They got Inman along with 2 quality relief prospects, one of which is already in the Padres' pen

The Rangers got for an all-star type closer-- Clippard who had a cup of coffee in the majors (6.33 ERA in 6 starts for NY), and some guy named Brett Gardner that up until today, Ive never head of when discussing top prospects. I bet your bottom dollar that Texas had demanded Ellsbury or Lester for Gagne

The price is really too high for anything in this market. This is a seller's market, but the only sellers appear to be really overplaying their hand. By comparison, guys like WMP, Hinske and Crisp could get quite a bit of interest. I wonder if the sox are thinking about being sellers.

[riverside sluggers]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/29/dye_has_tools_sox_need/

Just fucking wow, according to Nick Carfado, Hideki Okajima wouldve been one of the players the White Sox were asking for. So with the previous report (Sean MaCAdams), Kenny Williams was asking for players such as Clay Bucholz, Jacoby Ellsbury AND Hideki Okajima for a 2 month rental of Jermaine Dye? The article now goes on to say that they just might settle on Bobby Kielty... but also there are still no takers for Wily Mo with just 2 days away. The question is will they get any deal done at all? Or will it be like last year and standing pat with what they have?

I swear Theo must be an ass or something around the GMs, because the asking price is sky high with all other teams when it comes to the Sox.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnrKBviOpsXcoI0X7LPcvSaFCLcF?slug=ap-devilrays-astrostrade&prov=ap&type=lgns



Astros get infielder Ty Wigginton from Devil Rays for reliever Dan Wheeler

By CHRIS DUNCAN, AP Sports Writer
July 28, 2007

HOUSTON (AP) -- Hoping for more offensive production from their infield, the Houston Astros acquired Ty Wigginton from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays on Saturday for relief pitcher Dan Wheeler.

Wigginton was hitting .275 with 16 homers and 49 RBIs in 98 games this season. Last year, he had a career-high 24 homers and 79 RBIs.

[example1]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/29/dye_has_tools_sox_need/

Just fucking wow, according to Nick Carfado, Hideki Okajima wouldve been one of the players the White Sox were asking for. So with the previous report (Sean MaCAdams), Kenny Williams was asking for players such as Clay Bucholz, Jacoby Ellsbury AND Hideki Okajima for a 2 month rental of Jermaine Dye? The article now goes on to say that they just might settle on Bobby Kielty... but also there are still no takers for Wily Mo with just 2 days away. The question is will they get any deal done at all? Or will it be like last year and standing pat with what they have?

I swear Theo must be an ass or something around the GMs, because the asking price is sky high with all other teams when it comes to the Sox.

Teams aren't going to consistently ask for WMP and David Murphy when the Sox have Ellsbury and Buchholz. They are always going to ask for the top tier guys and we will see if they back off as we approach the deadline. It is very much like the Angels the past few years: people thought they needed to make a big move, and they had the pieces to do it, but the Angels were reluctant to let go of any of like 5 different players. It is a good long term approach, especially given the success this team is having anyway.

I think this deadline should be about injury protection.

[riverside sluggers]

Teams aren't going to consistently ask for WMP and David Murphy when the Sox have Ellsbury and Buchholz. They are always going to ask for the top tier guys and we will see if they back off as we approach the deadline. It is very much like the Angels the past few years: people thought they needed to make a big move, and they had the pieces to do it, but the Angels were reluctant to let go of any of like 5 different players. It is a good long term approach, especially given the success this team is having anyway.

I think this deadline should be about injury protection.

I fully realize that. Im just tired of hearing some team asking the Sox for the moon for one guy... then see them turn around to another team and deal him off for lower tier players

EDIT:
Matt Murton, a mysterious scratch from Saturday's lineup, is again absent for Sunday's game.

The Cubs have Mark DeRosa playing in Cliff Floyd's place in right field. The team said last night that Murton was scratched to so that Floyd could have today off, and it was assumed -- not only by us, but also by the Sun-Times -- that they meant Murton would get the start today. That he's again out of the lineup could mean he's being traded, perhaps to the Orioles in a Jay Payton deal. Payton, incidentally, is not in Baltimore's lineup today.

Hmmm

[TheKilo]

Murton's in the lineup tonight.

[example1]

No real updates to be found except this, which says that if they don't make a big move it isn't for lack of effort:

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=1014354&srvc=sports


One GM said that, from what he’d been told, the Sox had the best offers on the table for both Dye and Gagne.

I think these guys would be a significant and powerful addition to the team. Last year Dye was better than Sheffield is this season, and Sheff was a pretty considerable addition. The problem with Dye is that he doesn't have the same track-record that a guy like Sheff has. He doesn't really compare to other players: when he plays well he is one of the better hitters in baseball, at other times he has an alarmingly low OBP and doesn't hit that well. I know he had a great year last year, but he may deserve to be a part-time OFer for this team. Drew is a better player overall, but he isn't producing the way he is expected to.

As for getting Gagne, yes, make it happen if it doesn't involve Delcarmen. If they are convinced that Gagne is healthy then maybe even they could trade Manny D. I think Gagne would be such a big addition to this team. In any must win game the sox SP can go through 6 and then leave it to Okajima, Gagne and Papelbon to shut it down.

[riverside sluggers]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/07/31/tuesday.scoop/

The Sox are right now the leading team in the 3 team race (Red Sox, Yankees, Mets) to acquire Gagne. Whats blocking right now is that Boston is on his no trade list (and he wants to close), so the Sox would have to consult with him as the clock ticks away

[Coco's Disciples]

I thought I read that Boston was not in fact on his no trade list.

[jacksonianmarch]

I thought I read that Boston was not in fact on his no trade list.

Nope. The Yankees are not on his limited no-trade, but Boston is. If the sox acquire Gagne, they would likely have to guarantee him the 3 mil in incentives he can make as a closer.

[jacksonianmarch]

So, the Yankees are apparently still trying to pry Betemit from the Dodgers for Proctor.

WHAT IN GODS GREEN EARTH MAKES YOU THINK PROCTOR IS DISPENSABLE???

Farnsworth just imploded to the media. Our pen sans Vizcaino and Mariano have been atrocious. Proctor has been serviceable and able to eat lots of innings. Why the hell would we deal him for a utility player? I like this deal if we were dealing from a strength, but we arent.

[BSN07]

You mean you like the deal if you bending the other team over a barrel and making them grab there knees like usual? Why not deal Proctor off? Hes been used a ton with avg success and his arm will probably fall off come september and be useless anyway.

[jacksonianmarch]

You mean you like the deal if you bending the other team over a barrel and making them grab there knees like usual? Why not deal Proctor off? Hes been used a ton with avg success and his arm will probably fall off come september and be useless anyway.

Well, dealing from a financial advantage has its upside. But this team needs to be put together "Torre-proof". Proctor allows that to some degree. He is a rubber armed reliever and Torre demands that from all of his relievers. Hence, getting rid of him means more strain on the rest of the pen, which hasnt been all that fabulous either.

[Coco's Disciples]

Rumors floating around:

Adam Dunn to Washington
Carlos Silva to Cubs/Braves/Diamondbacks/Mets
David Eckstein to San Diego
Jonny Gomes to Somewhere
Al Reyes to Seattle for Jeff Clement
Jack Wilson to Detroit
Rocco Baldelli to Cubs
Bronson Arroyo to Braves

[Rdsxmbnt]

Rumors floating around:

Al Reyes to Seattle for Jeff Clement


really? where did you hear that, if Clement is on the block Id hope the Red Sox take a good look at him for MannyD or someone.

[Coco's Disciples]

I saw the rumor on the U.S.S. Mariner blog.

http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/31/trade-deadline-thread/

[BoSox21]

Rotoworld is saying the Mets are going after Chad Cordero pretty hard

also, the Mets and Yankees look like they're gonna fall out out the Eric Gagne race soon

[BoSox21]

Padres have jumped into the pool acquiring Rob Mackowiak from the White Sox and Morgan Ensberg from the Astros