A Rant about Red Sox Nation

[TheKilo]

Bear with me. These are observations I have made in the last few weeks or so, that really get under my skin and need to be addressed.


1. Eric Gagne is a choker and was a terrible acquisition by Theo Epstein


I blame pretty-boy Epstein for that Gag-ME frigging acquisition. What a FUCKING OVERPAID FAT-ASS PIECE OF SHIT he is.

But, is that really how I feel.


Facing Jesse Leech tomorrow with the kid Bucholz taking the ball, positive about tomorrow. Ok now Theo we all know you want to make a case that the move for Gagne was a good one. Cut the shit, he cant get any more chances when the Sox have a slim lead. The setup men should be Delcarmen/Timlin/Okajima


This is grade-A bullshit. Gagne was the best relief arm available at the trade deadline. The FO had legitimate concerns about the overuse of Okajima (read into the 5+ ERA since August 1) and brought in a guy who was having a fantastic year in Texas.

While Gagne has disappointed tremendously, where is the criticism of Varitek's pitch calling? I detailed in the GT last night how the sequence to Stairs last night could have been the worst of the season, and we also have to keep in mind the Tejada at bat in Baltimore last month. Putrid pitch calling.

Gagne looked like he had turned a corner lately, giving up one run in 7 appearances. How did he do it? He started to mix in more off speed stuff (which happen to be his best pitches), and in a hi-lev spot last night Tek goes fastball happy??

Why is Varitek immune to such criticism? I feel like I'm the only one who mentions these things...

[jacksonianmarch]

Varitek is trying to do what a pitcher should. Establish the fastball. Gagne wasnt doing that last night when he was missing by nearly a foot. I understand your criticism though, when you dont have a pitch, you shouldnt keep going to it time and again.

[TheKilo]

2. The perception of JD Drew

Has Drew been a disappointment this year? Undoubtedly yes. But I find it hilarious when we have people clamoring for the days of Trot Nixon, especially when you look at Drew compared to some other of our fan favorites this year.

The quotes are too numerous to find, but I'll try anyways...


He continues to impress me. Textbook swings, taking pitch after pitch whether its a strike or ball, unbelieveable eye on this guy. Never saw a pitch he liked, and I love his dirtdog attitude. I love how he gets so pissed off after leaving the bases loaded, really shows his unbelievable heart and love for the game. A true gamer.

^^This was said on Saturday, a game DREW GOT THE GAME WINNING RBI IN.


I totally agree with you.

If Nixon were to be struggling like this, he'd be Trot, a guy who's always been a solid contributor for us and always given everything he had, that has fallen into a big slump. Drew has never done ANYTHING for us when it mattered. It's easier to look back at the good when there IS some good to look back at. We don't have that with J.D. I don't care about his ONE monster season in Atlanta. I don't care about the solid years in LA. (Though SBF might) He played well for like the first 15 or 20 games of the season, and since, has been a liability. Until he puts something together when it counts, he's deserving of what he's receiving.


I can't believe the Red Sox are still playing J.D. Drew out in right field consistently. This guy is an awful hitter, and he was never good to begin with. Theo is a fucking idiot for giving him this much money. I don't give a shit what the dumb SABR sats say, he doesn't have a win at all costs mentality. This guy is garbage, and I would much rather have Trot Nixon out in RF who gave it his all 100% of the time.


I said that more than 2 months ago and you guys called me crazy. People put too much confidence into Theo. There's a reason why the Dodgers couldn't stand Drew and no one wanted him when he opted out. Ellsbury is on absolute fire right now, I see no reason to have Drew in the lineup. Bench him, give Ellsbury the spot in RF. Adds youth, character, someone who cares, oh yea, and a better player. I can't wait to see JD pack his bags and get the fuck out of Boston. Hell I'll pay for his damned cab and flight back to hicksville USA.

Where's the criticism of Kevin Youkilis, the guy who's hit .234 since the break and can't keep his mouth shut when he strikes out?

Or Jason Varitek, who's hit .217 and put up a tidy .682 OPS?

Or Manny Ramirez, who hasn't played in a month while Drew has played nearly every day with what could be a shredded shoulder? Ortiz has played with a bad knee and shoulder. Crisp has played with a bad hip. Where's our famed slugger, our cleanup hitter in the pennant race?

Oh, I forgot. It's Manny being Manny, and since he's produced in the past it's OK to let him slide.

But Drew doesn't get mad. He doesn't kick the dirt or bitch to umpires. It doesn't matter he's hit close to .300 since the start of August. Nope, his hat isn't dirty and he replaced our dirt dog and he makes too much money, we have to boo and hate him.

[TheKilo]

Varitek is trying to do what a pitcher should. Establish the fastball. Gagne wasnt doing that last night when he was missing by nearly a foot. I understand your criticism though, when you dont have a pitch, you shouldnt keep going to it time and again.

That's horseshit. 0-2 to Stairs and he throws 3 fastballs in a row and then a changeup 3-2?

Garbage pitch calling.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kilo, I actually got a nice education into the world of sox nation, this morning, but the host of the show (his name slips my mind) had a very good point.

The scenario is the show essentially calling Manny out for being teh suck of late. A hispanic caller whines and whines and whines about JD Drew and refuses to even hear criticism of Manny. Point is, when you have stock built up in a fanbase, they will forgive you a lot longer. But, the host correctly put the caller in his place. The discussion is about Manny, and Manny has disappointed. When we get to Drew, we will get to Drew. So, if you are talking about JD Drew, the guy has been awful. His tidy .882 OPS over the past 18 days is still below his career average and touting a power hitter for half a month's production of .882OPS should be an insult. But, those who want Nixon back have bigger problems. If you want Nixon from 2003/2004, then that is a solid comparison. But the Trot of now is awful and worse than Drew. but he is a whole lot cheaper.

[TheKilo]

My argument isn't the presence of criticism for Drew, he's certainly earned that, even though he's not getting my money.

My point is the lack of criticism for guys like Youkilis (who has done shit here) and Varitek/Ramirez, who either perform worse than Drew or bail on the team but get off scot free because they have a "C" on their jersey or are a fan favorite.

[jacksonianmarch]

If you want to take them all in sequence, you can.

Youkilis 1B- 21 1b's qualified
9th in MLB in BA for 1b
6th in MLB in OBP for 1b
16th in MLB in SLG for 1b
11th in MLB in OPS for 1b

Varitek C- 10 catchers qualified
9th in BA
4th in OBP
9th in SLG
6th in OPS

For his position, Varitek has been putrid and Youkilis has been blah.

[example1]

Gagne has had some of the most unfortunate appearances I can remember as a Sox fan. Percentage wise, there is no WAY he should have had this impact on this team at this time. Kyle Snyder would have been good for at least 2 of the 3 blown saves. That tells me it's a mix of bad pitching and bad luck. His stuff has looked better, but unless you can throw it for a strike it doesn't matter.

What Gagne's appearances have to do with Theo are beyond me. Theo went and got the best relief pitcher available. Period. 99% of you would have done it too. Now, how Gagne is being used is another issue but that is something that I don't pretend to have some special knowledge about... so I won't bash them for that either.

Drew will be an okay player for the Sox. He just needs time to start his statistics over and get a little bit of that positive wave going for him. He watches too many pitches... kind of like Youkilis last year, and has shown no power. Even when he swings early in counts he's fouling it off or missing. I think he's got better seasons in him.

This team is still in decent shape. Remember. the Tigers lost the division lead late last year while resting some players and shitting the bed, and they got through the AL and to the WS.

[TheKilo]

3. The Inferiority Complex That Should Have Left in '04, But Didn't


Ditto. I was at the game, this game was ruined by Francona. One thing wins us this game, having Manny Delcarmen getting loose. Thats all he had to do, but he shot us in the foot tonight by warming only papelbon in the 8th. It was fucking bullshit.

We deserve to lose this division. I hope we win it, but I think at this point, the yankees are smelling the finish line a little more strongly than we are.


The Yanks are going to sweep this series.....mark my words


unless we miraculously come back, this will be my last post of the night.

I would just like to say, if ever there were a way to piss off an entire fanbase, tonight was it. I went into to this game with the mind set that we had to win a mere one game, and I thought we would take care of that tonight. It's not so much that they are going to lose this game, it's how they are going to lose. If the Yankees weren't in the head of the entire Red Sox nation, they are in there now. I do not feel good about tomorrow or Sunday's game as a result of this. I'm passionate about sports, but this team is killing my passion. I've already had to deal with the Patriots and their cheating ways this week, this seemed like a good way to go into the weekend. All I can say is, thank god for the wild card, cause we may need it after this series.

This was an ugly, pathetic loss, and I'm sick of them always happening when the Sox play the Yankees.


I honestly forget what you used to stand for-- and I only come on these days to bitch and moan because misery loves company-- I'll admit that.

However, Beckett hasn't won a single big game for the Sox-- and until he does he isn't a big game winner. He had a chance to prove he was the ace of this team in New York and he got outpitched by a washed up Roger Clemens.

This team has no heart. It is 100% JD Drew's fault.

I would have thought 2004 would erase any of this negative psychobabble bullshit. I guess not.

No wonder the Yankee fans love to mock us. We're already expecting defeat.

[jacksonianmarch]

you dont erase 86 yrs of pain and frustration in one night. It dulls the pain, but it is still there. Kinda like a ghetto kid winning the lottery. He may not be poor anymore, but he will still act like he's from the ghetto. Never forget your roots, and the sox roots are in defeat, not success. So after the painkiller of 2004 and the pain of 05 and 06, 04 looks more like a painkiller than a remedy.

[Banned in Boston]

I sorta disagree with (1) because it's clear there is something wrong with Gagne. I was also bitching about this last night, so I need to stand by what I said. I've made the following argument before but have been shot down. Nonetheless here goes: Gagne has spent the last couple of teams closing for a team that's nothing resembling a contender. No pressure whatsoever. Yes, I know he's pitched in big situations in the past, but that was pre surgery and a long time ago.

Now here he is thrown into a the most pressure packed baseball town there is. He can't find his stuff (quite possibly because he's injured) and he's clearly not handling the pressure. If it comes out that there was something wrong with him, and that Cashman and others knew but Theo didn't, I think that's a big hit for Theo.

[Banned in Boston]

Regarding what Jacksonian said about the ghetto, first it's sort of a very broad statement about people from poor backgrounds, but aside from that his point does have validity. The reason I want this division so bad for the red Sox is because of what it means symbolically. It would mean that the 11 year streak was over and that the Sox had for once beaten the Yankees head to head in a pennant race.

It's less about the World Series issues and more about wanting to claim a new milestone. And while the NYY surge is sickening, if the Sox do hold on it will be sweeter than it would've been three months ago because the Sox will have held off their enemies when they were at their best.

That won't stop NYY fans from crying about their early injuries, but it will be nice to hear someone else make the excuses for a change.

Anyway, the playoffs are a separate matter, and the Wild Card has changed the fabric of pennant races for good. But the divsion title would mean a lot to me.

[TheKilo]

I sorta disagree with (1) because it's clear there is something wrong with Gagne. I was also bitching about this last night, so I need to stand by what I said. I've made the following argument before but have been shot down. Nonetheless here goes: Gagne has spent the last couple of teams closing for a team that's nothing resembling a contender. No pressure whatsoever. Yes, I know he's pitched in big situations in the past, but that was pre surgery and a long time ago.

Now here he is thrown into a the most pressure packed baseball town there is. He can't find his stuff (quite possibly because he's injured) and he's clearly not handling the pressure. If it comes out that there was something wrong with him, and that Cashman and others knew but Theo didn't, I think that's a big hit for Theo.


Again, I said in my post that Gagne has been awful, but I find the lack of criticism for Tek disturbing.

[TheKilo]

you dont erase 86 yrs of pain and frustration in one night. It dulls the pain, but it is still there. Kinda like a ghetto kid winning the lottery. He may not be poor anymore, but he will still act like he's from the ghetto. Never forget your roots, and the sox roots are in defeat, not success. So after the painkiller of 2004 and the pain of 05 and 06, 04 looks more like a painkiller than a remedy.

'04 is the ultimate trump card. The ultimate.

The Yanks have '78, and they have '99, and they have '03.

But what the Sox did in '04 means so much more than all of that. Especially since it ended with a world series.

No team in history had choked as bad as the Yanks did. And yet, even though the Sox caused it, the lingering stench of defeatism remains, and it upsets me.

It results in people being pantywaists when we start losing 1-0 in the first inning of games. I'm tired of it, and there's no reason this festering culture of defeatism needs to continue.

[jacksonianmarch]

'04 is the ultimate trump card. The ultimate.

The Yanks have '78, and they have '99, and they have '03.

But what the Sox did in '04 means so much more than all of that. Especially since it ended with a world series.

No team in history had choked as bad as the Yanks did. And yet, even though the Sox caused it, the lingering stench of defeatism remains, and it upsets me.

It results in people being pantywaists when we start losing 1-0 in the first inning of games. I'm tired of it, and there's no reason this festering culture of defeatism needs to continue.

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

[Banned in Boston]

'04 is the ultimate trump card. The ultimate.

The Yanks have '78, and they have '99, and they have '03.

But what the Sox did in '04 means so much more than all of that. Especially since it ended with a world series.

No team in history had choked as bad as the Yanks did. And yet, even though the Sox caused it, the lingering stench of defeatism remains, and it upsets me.

It results in people being pantywaists when we start losing 1-0 in the first inning of games. I'm tired of it, and there's no reason this festering culture of defeatism needs to continue.


I haven't been to Fenway in a few years, but I always found the air there heavy with the fear of disappointment. But the other day I commented that this seemed like a different Red Sox fan experience. One thought that meant I was a Skanks fan, but what I meant was I don't sense the level of concern or panic I have seen in the past.

[jacksonianmarch]

As a yankee fan living in enemy territory, panic is very easy to sense. What is interesting is that it gets into daily life. You can tell the diehards, dont want to talk to yankee fans during bad times, rub it in our face during the good. The panic is palpable.

[redsoxrules]

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

NOTHING is a bigger choke than the 2004 yankees

[TheKilo]

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

What? We're still in the lead by 2.5 games.

And how many season have the Yanks been directly responsible for knocking the Sox out of the playoffs?

3? '78, '99, '03.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Its about time some people got called out

[rician blast]

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

Love this! Would rather call the Sox performance a choke than give his own team credit for playing well. Its pricelesss and oh so typical.

Sox since 7/15 36-26 .574
Yanks since 7/15 41-20 .672

So the Yanks have been blazing...but the Sox have choked at .574?
The Red Sox have the bets record in baseball, but they've choked?

And to think I thought MJRiv the Troll was gone?!

[MANNYHOF24]

My argument isn't the presence of criticism for Drew, he's certainly earned that, even though he's not getting my money.

My point is the lack of criticism for guys like Youkilis (who has done shit here) and Varitek/Ramirez, who either perform worse than Drew or bail on the team but get off scot free because they have a "C" on their jersey or are a fan favorite.

Actually I Manny's injury is a pretty serious injury that needs about a month to heal. I don't think it is Manny bailing on the team, I think if anything the Red Sox are holding him back. I don't understand how you can defend Drew at all. He has been much more of a negative then a positive for the Sox this season.

[TheKilo]

Actually I Manny's injury is a pretty serious injury that needs about a month to heal. I don't think it is Manny bailing on the team, I think if anything the Red Sox are holding him back. I don't understand how you can defend Drew at all. He has been much more of a negative then a positive for the Sox this season.

Did I not call Drew a disappointment in my post? Who's defending what he's done on the field?

I'm asking why he gets the brunt of it while others, who have been worse offensive players lately, get off without any criticism.

Varitek is hitting .217 with a .682 OPS since the ASB. That is putrid. Any thought of criticizing him? Nope, he's got that big "C" on his jersey.

And yes, it's totally the Red Sox that are holding Manny back...


Missing since Aug. 28 with a strained oblique, Ramirez has started taking cuts in the batting cage, and by all accounts looks like he’s recovered and ready to go. Of course, he’s not, a situation manager Terry Francona tiptoed around yesterday in Toronto.

“He needs to clear himself," Francona said. "The medical people have gotten fairly aggressive, he's swinging the bat fairly aggressively, but there has to be . . . a confidence from himself that he can go play the game and not hurt himself. And that's a hard thing. Myself included, you see him go hit the ball out on the street, you go, 'Oh man,' but you can really make some disastrous mistakes trying to read somebody else's body. It doesn't work."


The Red Sox are 10-9 since Ramirez left the lineup last month in the Bronx, but of those nine losses six have been by two runs or fewer. Four have been one-run losses, including a pair over the weekend vs. the Yankees.

Make that record 10-11, with 7 of the 11 losses being less than two runs, and five one run losses.

I wonder if having an HoF cleanup hitter in the lineup may have helped....


It’s true that the oblique is a tricky thing -- even sidelining Orioles ace Erik Bedard for the remainder of the season -- which is why the Red Sox have been cautious in bringing Ramirez back. But now that it’s officially up to him as to when he returns -- well, that just opens the door now doesn’t it?

"I mean, it's easy for us to sit here and go, 'We'd like him to play,'" Francona said. "Nine times out of 10, he's probably OK. But he's got to know inside that he can play the game and not hurt himself."

http://www.boston.com/sports/nesn/wilbur/sports_blog/blog/2007/09/18/oblique_forecast/

[jacksonianmarch]

Love this! Would rather call the Sox performance a choke than give his own team credit for playing well. Its pricelesss and oh so typical.

Sox since 7/15 36-26 .574
Yanks since 7/15 41-20 .672

So the Yanks have been blazing...but the Sox have choked at .574?
The Red Sox have the bets record in baseball, but they've choked?

And to think I thought MJRiv the Troll was gone?!

Someone is riled up. CF, the yankees have been very hot, this much is for sure, but the sox have played mediocre baseball for 4 months now. They started off 36-16. Thus far, they have been 54-46 since. A .540 clip is a nice pace, but it is on par with the Tigers record right now, which is 6 games off the pace for the WC. If the sox were the team they presented themselves as and played .590 baseball for the last 100 games, they would be 95-57 and 7 games up in the ALE. Instead, they slowed down and allowed a hot yankee team to catch them. With a 14 game lead, no matter how good the other teams play, you should hang onto it. This isnt the playoffs, where you are facing the best of the best night in and night out. This is the regular season where this yr, half the teams are under .500 and one is at .500.

The point is CF, as hot as the yankees have been, the sox have been equally mediocre. And a great team as the sox were initially billed as knows when to step on the throat. Instead the sox opened the door. I said about 2 months ago that the only way the sox lose this division is if they open the door. On the heels of 3 straight losses and 11 losses in their last 21 games coming down the stretch, I'd say they are doing a fine job of that. I give a ton of credit to the yankees, but if you are completely overlooking the chokejob that has gone on in beantown, then you are missing something.

[schillingouttheks]

Jacko, look. The Yankees have had the best second half in the Joe Torre era this year. It's not that the Sox are choking it away (by the way, they haven't just yet), it's that the Yankees are on fucking FIRE. There's just no stopping them.

Anyway, thanks for the thread Kilo. Much needed.

[jacksonianmarch]

it is both is what I am saying.

[schillingouttheks]

it is both is what I am saying.

I caught that, but with the lead the Sox have had at one point, the way they've been playing would have been fine if this was any other season. The Yanks are just too hot.

[yankees228]

Jacko, I think his point was that after what happened in 2004 Red Sox fans shouldn't be so negative all of the time.

[BoSox21]

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

im curious as to your definition of choke. The Sox have played average to very good baseball since the 14 1/2 game lead was established whereas the Yankees have played OUT OF THEIR MINDS. the Yankees would've overcome any other lead in baseball during their hot streak....except the AL East lead. The fact that the Yankees blew a 3-0 series lead by directly losing 4 straight games to the Sox falls more in line with the definition of a choke

[Banned in Boston]

im curious as to your definition of choke. The Sox have played average to very good baseball since the 14 1/2 game lead was established whereas the Yankees have played OUT OF THEIR MINDS. the Yankees would've overcome any other lead in baseball during their hot streak....except the AL East lead. The fact that the Yankees blew a 3-0 series lead by directly losing 4 straight games to the Sox falls more in line with the definition of a choke


To Skanks fans .574 is "mediocre" as loing as their team of mercanaries, whoremongers adnd juciers is ahead of that pace.

Fuck them.

[Gom]

To Skanks fans .574 is "mediocre" as loing as their team of mercanaries, whoremongers adnd juciers is ahead of that pace.

Fuck them.

Wow...lets see...mercenaries...hmm...Cano, Cabrera, Pettitte, Rivera, Posada, Jeter, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy.....all integral parts of the team at this point. Your team, if anything, is more mercenary than ours [not that I care]. Who is homegrown on your team?

Pedroia, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester, Varitek, Delcarmen, and Hansen? I probably have missed a few, but I know that Schilling, Beckett, Ortiz, Manny, Drew, Lugo, Lowell, Crisp aren't. I think the Yankee batch of homegrown talent is um...slightly better. Like Jessica Biel is only kinda attractive.

Whoremongerers...not sure what that means, but I'm sure all major league players get some serious ass, so I think that means nothing....

Juicers...um...like you really think Ortiz doesn't? It's a given that Giambi did, do you really think he's the only one on either side? If so, I got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Real cheap.

[Banned in Boston]

Juicers...um...like you really think Ortiz doesn't? It's a given that Giambi did, do you really think he's the only one on either side? If so, I got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Real cheap.


Ahh, the old "my guy got busted but your guy probably does it too" defense.

As for this Boston sucks because they are only playing .540 since July thing....when a marathon is over they don't critiicize the winner for not maintaining a certain pace the entire way.

And funny how you harp on that .540 record and neglect that you people left your team for dead when it was playing like crap for three months. The Skanks weren't "mediocre" then they were shit. And don't cry to me about injuries. Injuries weren't causing Abreu to whiff and everyone else to sit around waiting for Rodriquez to do something.

[Gom]

Ahh, the old "my guy got busted but your guy probably does it too" defense.


Career BEST OPS before joining the Red Sox: .839
Career WOST OPS since joining the Red Sox: .961

Oh yeah...he's a lefty, and Fenway is built for them.

[Banned in Boston]

Projection...it's not just for breakfast anymore.

[schillingouttheks]

Career BEST OPS before joining the Red Sox: .839
Career WOST OPS since joining the Red Sox: .961

Oh yeah...he's a lefty, and Fenway is built for them.

Yeah, because it's not like he found a much bigger role in Boston or anything, right? The only thing Ortiz puts into his body, as someone else put it, is "beans and rice."

[BudLight]

Gom - fellow Yankee fan - to suggest that Ortiz is on the juice, without any proof at all, is really unjust. Look at his progression as a hitter from the time he was with Minnesota to now with Boston. When he first came to Boston he had holes in his swing big enough to push Barry Bonds' head through. Ortiz has worked really hard on his mechanics and has now closed those holes, that's what makes him such a threat and premier power hitter. The Juice doesn't help a hitters poor mechanics.

[Gom]

I am one of the few who really doesn't care if a player juices or not. If he helps my team win, great. I am a bit of a cynic, I think the majority of players juice, have juiced, or will juice. It's not that it's Ortiz. Any player today will be met with skepticism. A player that comes in not even guaranteed a full time position, and becomes an MVP candidate, falls under suspicion. Realize, the difference I gave you was his best non-Red Sox year and his worst Red Sox year.

There is almost no proof, period. 99.9% of America believes Bonds juiced. It is a physical impossibility for his head to grow that big without some sort of pharmaceuticals. Any player who shows a marked improvement, a drastic improvement is going under the scope. We'll never have proof, but the circumstantial evidence is strong.

Personally, I think Ortiz is a fun personality, and I would be disappointed if he had juiced. Would I be surprised, shocked? No. Do I believe that he did. Yes. Without proof, except for his marked improvement, incredibly drastic improvement when he changed teams.

[Khan]

OK, I'll step to the plate on the Gagman bashing. Excuse my tone, I'm pissed at the world this morning. At the deadline, my feeling was, and still is, they needed a bat, Gagman was nice, but not the savior people were talking about. Hell, somebody even said sign him to an extension and move Pap into the starting rotation. Shitballs. I subscribed then to the minority report - Gagne had an impressive run, in the NL WEST. He did it with gas, something he no longer has. Now he needs to paint corners, but has no comand of off speed or heat.. He is coming off an injury and the verdict is still out. I was not convinced he was all that. So if the best you could get for the BP was garbage, maybe you should've got a bat and a lesser name for the BP. If Dye was out of reach, then go to a plan B, but Theo did not have one. Then again Theo can't seem to evaluate FA/veteran talent. Yes I point to Theo.

As far as Tek sharing blame for Gagman's piss poor performence, maybe in passing. Then again two points: 1) Tek is not the one who can't hit the back side of a barn with any pitch; and b) Maybe you can explain to me why I see other pitchers around the league shaking their heads after a sign is given?

As for Drew I'll agree. The fact that my dead grandmother can put up better power numbers than Nancy is beside the point. As are the ramifications of not having a bonnafide 5 hitter yet again. I wanted to see them sell high on Youk to bring in a bat, Youk's track record in second halfs is ugly. And your point about Manny is a good one. I have been an avid support of his, but this is too much. I just fail to understand why he is sitting because he can't run with a sore neck? When was the last time we saw this guy run? And what about other guys who are a bit sore - the list is a long one this time of year.

And the spin that it is more important to arrive at the finish healthy than with the Division Crown - pound sand.

[Banned in Boston]

And the spin that it is more important to arrive at the finish healthy than with the Division Crown - pound sand.

I'm with you on that one. It's idiotic and doesn't sound like something a winner would say.

[Gom]

They have won one championship in the last 89 years. I would hardly qualify them as winners.

[Khan]

and what version of the queen's english are you using?

Webster defines winner as "a person or thing that wins; victor".

So I suppose by that definition then, nobody has won the WS this year, and therefore, nobody is a winner. On the other hand you invoke history, and webster does not use a qualifier like winner, one who has won, two time or, three in the last eighty nine times. If you want to use qualifiers, then how about, winner - one who won the the first of an event, or the first several? Why use your particular brand of revisionist history?

[ORS]

Realize, the difference I gave you was his best non-Red Sox year and his worst Red Sox year. ...Do I believe that he did. Yes. Without proof, except for his marked improvement, incredibly drastic improvement when he changed teams.
Of course, this is completely disenginious.

Nevermind the fact that here is the progression:

.799 in '01
.839 in '02
.961 in '03
.983 in '04
1.001 in '05
1.049 in '06

Yes, the big jump is from '02 to '03 when he switched teams, but he started the year god-awful in '03. He was OPS'ing .657 through his first 22 games. He looked like a bust. The problem is, he was still trying to do what Minnesota wanted him to do. They didn't care about working the count (proof in his OBP and IsoD before/after the move), and they didn't free him to swing away. Minnesota is just now coming around to the idea that working the count is a good idea. In the early part of this decade they were like the Angels, prefering the hitters put the ball in play.

Of course, working the count isn't just about making the pitcher throw more pitches. It's about getting "your" pitch. If you take (when you can) or foul off the pitcher's pitches, making the pitcher throw more pitches, you are more likely to get the mistake pitch where you want it. This is the biggest thing Papa Jack imparted upon Ortiz.

Let's go back to the early part of '03. He was horrible, but it was due to approach. Around the middle of May, Jackson's teaching started taking hold, and in the next 19 games his OPS went from .657 to .897. By the second half, he was a different hitter, and he put up a .991 from the ASG on. Since then it's been:

.991 2nd half of '03
.983 in '04
1.001 in '05
1.040 in '06

Everyone talks about what great fools they were for letting Ortiz go. I disagree. They never would have gotten "Big Papi", because they didn't know how to use him.

And, as far as circumstantial evidence goes, let's not talk about the catcher putting up career highs in his age 36 season. A season where he will be one of a handful of catchers to catch over 125 games at that age. No, instead let's focus on the big guy with natural power that was being wasted by a team with screwed up priorities.

[Gom]

If you told me Posada was on the juice, I could buy that. Like you said, career year at 36 for a catcher is extraordinary.

Difference between you and I on this issue ORS is that I believe that Yankees can, and probably do, wrong. I realize that in your eyes, once a player dons the Red Sox uniform, he will never cheat on his wife, do steriods, will always help an old lady across the street, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeter juiced. His numbers don't show it, but you never know.

Unfortunately, in today's baseball climate, any aberration in a player's career that shows marked improvement will be suspect.

To go from the homer happy metrodome to a park that is bad for lefty power hitters and have a huge jump in OPS, nearly 130 points in his first season in a new stadium, facing tougher pitching overall [the AL East was a much tougher division then].

Tough to believe.

[Khan]

Who cares? there all on the juice.

[ORS]

I'd love to see where I suggest the Sox are infallible. No, I'm well aware of and accept the fact that the Sox are team of humans like every other team. Of course, this is kind of funny. A personal attack coming from the guy who is so above such things? What will the "class" monitor think of this? Oh wait, that's you. No, I can stomach one of my guys doing it, my only requirement is more than what you've brought forth. People got better with good coaching before the advent of steroids, and they will continue to do so afterward. Ortiz' improvement coincided with new coaching and him entering the usual power peak for players in terms of age.

Anyway, you might have an ancillary point if the Metrodome were indeed "homer happy". However, the three year weighted for HRs from '03 to '05 was 0.98, last year was 0.836, and this year is 0.727. Homer happy indeed. Anything else you want to make up?

[Banned in Boston]

They have won one championship in the last 89 years. I would hardly qualify them as winners.

Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid post. We're talking about players in the present and recent past. I've never seen a ballplayer who had an 89 year career.

Who on the current Yankee team has won a World Series? I count Jeter, Posada, Clemens and Rivera. Forgive me if I'm missing people or guys who won with other teams, but does that mean the other 36 or so on the current roster are losers?

I can take NYY fans who want to discuss baseball and the way the teams are playing. But coming on a Red Sox board just to insult them makes you small and cowardly. I doubt you'd go to Fenway and say that kind of crap to people in the bleachers.

[BudLight]

Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid post. We're talking about players in the present and recent past. I've never seen a ballplayer who had an 89 year career.

Who on the current Yankee team has won a World Series? I count Jeter, Posada, Clemens and Rivera. Forgive me if I'm missing people or guys who won with other teams, but does that mean the other 36 or so on the current roster are losers?

I can take NYY fans who want to discuss baseball and the way the teams are playing. But coming on a Red Sox board just to insult them makes you small and cowardly. I doubt you'd go to Fenway and say that kind of crap to people in the bleachers.

Banned - Good Point!! That brings up a question though - what constitutes a team as a winner as opposed to a loser. On this forum as well as Yankee forums there seems to be a wide difference of opinion. Some believe winning the World Series equals a winner, other believe a Division Title or League Title equals a winner, while others believe anything short of a world series title equals a loser. Any opinions out there?

[Banned in Boston]

Bud: For purposes of what you're asking, I think surviving a 162 game marathon and winning a division makes a team a winner. I know this isn't soccer and we're not in Europe, but over there they crown the last team standing after the long regular season the League Champion. Their "cups" are sort of like playoffs, but the cup winnner and the league champion are recognized separately. It's sort of like a college hoops team winning a regular season conference crown vs a conference tourney crown.

It's very easy for a yankee fan to claim that only winning a WS makes one a winner. After all, when they sign on for Skankeehood, their fans immediately lay claim to World Series titles that were won years before they were even born. They then parade in t-shirts displaying those titles as if they had anything to do with any of them.

But I digress. I was using the term "winner" in a broader sense. To me a "winner" in sports is someone who is dissatsified with losing, does his damndest to make sure that happens, and has results to back him up. That's very different from someone who happens to play on a winning team. Karim Garcia played for an AL Champion. Does that make him a "winner"?

[Khan]

As long as you play the best you can, "we're all winners"!

[BudLight]

As I stated previously, the reason I ask is because, unlike many other Yankee fans, I don't believe the measure of a winner equates only to winning a WS.

[Banned in Boston]

As I stated previously, the reason I ask is because, unlike many other Yankee fans, I don't believe the measure of a winner equates only to winning a WS.

Well you are in the minority I'm afraid. It's certainly no what Steinbrenner has preached over the years.

Pete Rose has three WS rings, but he sucks at life. He may have at one time been a "winner', but that was decades ago.

[BudLight]

Well you are in the minority I'm afraid. It's certainly no what Steinbrenner has preached over the years.

Pete Rose has three WS rings, but he sucks at life. He may have at one time been a "winner', but that was decades ago.


I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the owner. Not a band wagon fan, have been around many years and must say George's absence in day to day decisions this year have been for the better. The Yankees never would have gained this much ground had George been calling the shots at the trade deadline, not to mention the devastating effect it would have had on the young talent in the farm system.

[rician blast]

Regarding the issue of "choking" I guess I'm of the mind that a true choke is when a player or team falters as a result of not being able to handle a pressure situation. Playing "mediocre" ball over a long stretch, while a team advances on you because they are winning at a tremendous clip doesn't really qualify in my book.

So I think the term "choke" really gets over-used in sports these days.

[TheKilo]

While I agree that the Sox haven't "choked" (with the exception of the last 4 games - they look disinterested), it will no doubt be portrayed in the media that 2004 was a fluke, Boston has reverted back to their losing ways, and we'll see Bucky Dent and Bill Buckner and Babe Ruth all throughout the playoffs again.

And the worst part? We'd deserve it. The Red Sox fanbase is ingrained in losing. FOX nows this, but more importantly. the respective fanbases know this too.

It pisses me off to no end.

[He Hate Me]

Well you are in the minority I'm afraid. It's certainly no what Steinbrenner has preached over the years.

Pete Rose has three WS rings, but he sucks at life. He may have at one time been a "winner', but that was decades ago.

seems like there's many ways to define a winner, Gom might simply have one of those that are different from what you were thinking.

[Gom]

I define winner in sports as what he does on the field. Pete Rose was a winner at baseball, but pretty much a loser everywhere else. All I really care is on the field. I don't care how a player treats his wife or his in-laws, just whether he can hit that 98 mph fastball.

These guys are here for MY entertainment. I pay money to buy season tickets to be ENTERTAINED. The way I look at it, they're here for me, not the other way around. What they do on the field is for me. What they do off the field with their lives does not concern me.

I love my little world :)

[Banned in Boston]

I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the owner. Not a band wagon fan, have been around many years and must say George's absence in day to day decisions this year have been for the better. The Yankees never would have gained this much ground had George been calling the shots at the trade deadline, not to mention the devastating effect it would have had on the young talent in the farm system.

Funny how NYY laid the foundation of their dynasty during his suspension and have come back from nowhere now that he's kinda out of it.

[yeszir]

As long as you play the best you can, "we're all winners"!

And you get ice cream after no matter what!

[Banned in Boston]

seems like there's many ways to define a winner, Gom might simply have one of those that are different from what you were thinking.

Yeah, uh, sorry, but playing for an organization that has won multiple world series in the past does not in and of itself make one a "winner" and failing to play for that organization does not make on per se less than a "winner". Like I said, Karim Garcia was never a "winner".

Sorry, pal, but there are accepted definitions of the word "winner" and then there's pure delusion. Gom made a stupid argument, and I called him on it.

[He Hate Me]

Yeah, uh, sorry, but playing for an organization that has won multiple world series in the past does not in and of itself make one a "winner" and failing to play for that organization does not make on per se less than a "winner". Like I said, Karim Garcia was never a "winner".

Sorry, pal, but there are accepted definitions of the word "winner" and then there's pure delusion.

Like I said, there's many ways to define a winner. I don't think any fan is obtuse enough to assume that Karim is a winner simply because he played on a squad that went to the WS. You have to perform as well.

[Banned in Boston]

Like I said, there's many ways to define a winner. I don't think any fan is obtuse enough to assume that Karim is a winner simply because he played on a squad that went to the WS. You have to perform as well.

Gom's defintion was moronic. It simply defied logic. It would only work if the players in question had all played for the same team for 89 years, something that could only occur if tortoises played baseball.

I'm sorry you feel the need to argue it for him on his behalf, when the best he could come up with was something about how all of this exists in his mind. That's fine, but in the reason-based community it's bunk.

[Gom]

How is something that I define, for myself, wrong?

I define winners on their titles. That's the way I define them. If you don't like it, fine...but it's my definition.

It's not just baseball folks....look at Peyton Manning. Finally got over the Patriots and won the big game. Whether that's fair or not is up for debate. Just the way I define it.

ORS...I have a question for you. What is the homer ratio in the metrodome for just the away team?

The twins were never known as a power team. If you want to look at ballpark factors, I believe you should look more at the away team, since one team influences 50% of the statistics.

[ORS]

You don't know how park factors are calc'd, do you?

[BSN07]

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

Its not a choke Jacko, Besides the last 5 games they have had the 3rd best record in the league since the AS break. The Yanks just happen to be #1.

[Gom]

You don't know how park factors are calc'd, do you?

No I don't. Enlighten me.

[Mr Crunchy]

theyve choked badly in many games down the stretch
lets not pretend that they havent,it diminishes the integrity of this board
now
we can lay the blame at the feet of gagne and tito if you'd like but they win as a team and lose as a team

of course nothing compares to what happened in 04
nor will anything remotley come close to resembling the greatest choke in the history of sports.

if its making you crazy do yourself a favor and come back here in october
the sox will be playing for another 3 weeks no matter what happens in the division
stlouis has the crown after winning 83 games
they beat detroit who gagged away their division last year yet still managed to wipe out ny and oakland with ease

lots and lots of baseball left

[ORS]

No I don't. Enlighten me.
Consider HRs. They break everything down into home and away. Figuring the 81 road games are a mix of hitters parks and pitchers parks, they assume the road total neutral, or average. Then you get a ratio based on this:

HRs at Home + Opponent HR at Home = HR Park Factor
HRs on Road + Opponent HR on Road

Higher than 1 is above average, meaning it favors that type of event. Lower than 1 is below average. There is no need to determine the road team park factor in Minnesota. The opponent's contribution is considered in the calculation.

[He Hate Me]

not to derail but I've always wondered what PETCOA or something liek that means. Also dont know about the ERA scoring system. anyone?

[Jerry J Mabb]

What will it take to get rid of the "Kid Phenomenen" Dice K? Man if there ever was a loser!
He couldn't beat the Little League Georgia team! Man, we got to be a little more clever on our purchases. He was the greatest blunder in baseball, to date, as far as I am concerned.

Jerry

[He Hate Me]

What will it take to get rid of the "Kid Phenomenen" Dice K?

Isn't it obvious?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Godzilla.jpg

[TheKilo]

What will it take to get rid of the "Kid Phenomenen" Dice K? Man if there ever was a loser!
He couldn't beat the Little League Georgia team! Man, we got to be a little more clever on our purchases. He was the greatest blunder in baseball, to date, as far as I am concerned.

Jerry

Wow. Wow. Wowwwwwwwww.

Daisuke Matsuzaka has a VORP of 34.1, good for 46th in the entire league, and good for second on the team only behind Josh Beckett.

Not a good start, buddy.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?stats&team=BOS

[Gom]

Consider HRs. They break everything down into home and away. Figuring the 81 road games are a mix of hitters parks and pitchers parks, they assume the road total neutral, or average. Then you get a ratio based on this:

HRs at Home + Opponent HR at Home = HR Park Factor
HRs on Road + Opponent HR on Road

Higher than 1 is above average, meaning it favors that type of event. Lower than 1 is below average. There is no need to determine the road team park factor in Minnesota. The opponent's contribution is considered in the calculation.

I see. I learn something every day.

Still, any player today that shows a marked improvement, especially when switching teams, will be looked at with suspicion, like Ortiz. When a player has a great year at a later age, like Posada, especially at his position, he will be looked at with suspicion. Whether they do or they don't use performance enhancers, they will be looked upon with suspicion. Sad state of baseball, but currently unavoidable.

[Rdsxmbnt]

What will it take to get rid of the "Kid Phenomenen" Dice K? Man if there ever was a loser!
He couldn't beat the Little League Georgia team! Man, we got to be a little more clever on our purchases. He was the greatest blunder in baseball, to date, as far as I am concerned.

Jerry

More so than say Zito? DiceK has been one of our best starters this season. Its hillarious on my end how people are willing to forget how good DiceK pitched this season up until a couple starts ago.

Once a Yankee fan always one though man.

[RobZombie]

Why is it by the way you have to "establish the fastball"? There have been plenty of successful pitchers who have gotten there by pitching with breaking balls first. If its your fourth best pitch and you can't control it.

I also don't see how you can criticize Theo for acquiring Gagne in the first place. As Kilo said, they correctly identified a possible weakness in a tiring setup man and went out to fix the problem with the best guy on the market.

All a GM can do is make trades and signings with the highest probability of success considering the risk taken. The GM can't go out and perform for the player, and he doesn't have a crystal ball. If you are criticizing the trade today, but loved it when it happened then you are a hypocrite.

[schillingouttheks]

All a GM can do is make trades and signings with the highest probability of success considering the risk taken. The GM can't go out and perform for the player, and he doesn't have a crystal ball. If you are criticizing the trade today, but loved it when it happened then you are a hypocrite.

Agreed. Well, you can hate the trade, but you can't bash Theo for it. I loved it when it happened, but I'm irritated as hell obviously. I only blame Gagne for his implosions though. He's supposed to be better than this.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Why is it by the way you have to "establish the fastball"? There have been plenty of successful pitchers who have gotten there by pitching with breaking balls first. If its your fourth best pitch and you can't control it.

I also don't see how you can criticize Theo for acquiring Gagne in the first place. As Kilo said, they correctly identified a possible weakness in a tiring setup man and went out to fix the problem with the best guy on the market.

All a GM can do is make trades and signings with the highest probability of success considering the risk taken. The GM can't go out and perform for the player, and he doesn't have a crystal ball. If you are criticizing the trade today, but loved it when it happened then you are a hypocrite.

Thank you, it's really unbelievable how much bashing Theo gets from some Red Sox fans (not just on this forum). This offseason he goes out and signs a career .900 OPS OF, he brings in the best Japanese pitcher ever, and this trade deadline he goes out and brings in the best MR hands down on the market. The nerve of some people to blame Theo for those things, the only person to be blamed for players underperforming is the player themselves.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Another thing that is hilarious is people blaming the FO for not bringing back Carlos Pena.

[example1]

Sort of a long post, sorry...


Thank you, it's really unbelievable how much bashing Theo gets from some Red Sox fans (not just on this forum). This offseason he goes out and signs a career .900 OPS OF, he brings in the best Japanese pitcher ever, and this trade deadline he goes out and brings in the best MR hands down on the market. The nerve of some people to blame Theo for those things, the only person to be blamed for players underperforming is the player themselves.

Of course there are going to be mistakes by any FO, but this team has made the playoffs in 4 out of the last 5 years. That is a GREAT feat in this age and with the considerable turnover involved. I don't know anyone who thinks this will be the last year the Sox are in the playoffs.

I would be more critical of the front office if I saw serious issues to be critical about. For people who clearly live and breathe the running of a baseball team I think that Theo and Ben and Jed (and the rest of them) are extremely thorough and professional. They have a philosophy that extends from HS aged draftees to each individual pitch on the MLB field and that philosophy represents (occasionally to a fault) the epitome of what can be called "scientific baseball knowledge". Their use of sabermetrics, not only in player evaluation but also in playing the game is obviously not a passing fad and is something that is growing in popularity around the league. They were on it pretty early. They play the percentages and trust them long term and it seems to create a particular 'type' of offensive club and atmosphere. I would call that style "conservative" in terms of not pressing the action offensively. Hitters either fit into that mold or they do not stay with the Red Sox. Even guys like Eric Hinske and Alex Cora take a ton of pitches and do not fear striking out, in favor of waiting for their pitch. What is remarkable is how often that turns into a 3-ball count, even for guys like Hinske and Cora. Even bad Sox hitters regularly work themselves into good hitters' counts.

Talk about turnover, here are guys who played for the Sox in 2005 and have since left):

Position players: (all but 6)

Kevin Millar
Mark Bellhorn
Bill Mueller
Edgar Renteria
Johnny Damon
Trot Nixon
Tony Graffanino
John Olerud
Jay Payton
Gabe Kapler
Ramon Vazquez
Roberto Petagine
Adam Hyzdu
Kelly Shoppach
Adam Stern
Jose Cruz
Alejandro Machado
David McCarty
Hanley Ramirez
Shawn Wooten
=====
Pitchers: (all but 5)

Bronson Arroyo
David Wells
Wade Miller
Keith Foulke
Mike Myers
Alan Embree
Matt Mantei
Geremi Gonzalez
John Halama
Chad Bradford
Lenny DiNardo
Blaine Neal
Chad Harville
Mike Remlinger
Abe Alvarez
Cla Meredith
Mike Stanton
Scott Cassidy
Matt Perisho

When they talked about "retooling" a few years ago I heard a lot of complaints, yet this years' retooled Sox team was the first team to guarantee a spot in the playoffs and were in first place all season long. They have a killer rotation for the next few years when Buchholz is added, Ellsbury is showing that he will be a star and Pedroia the perfect #2 hitter. I'm not lamenting the loss of many of those guys and any pain I may have felt at the time has long since disappeared. All in all, I'm glad they "retooled" even if it meant they missed a year of the playoffs due to injuries, and lost in the playoffs in 05. This team is far from perfect, but they are in good shape for the present and future and that's all I need to have an overall positive impression of the upper management.

[TheKilo]

Another thing that is hilarious is people blaming the FO for not bringing back Carlos Pena.

Especially since Hinske was under contract, and plays more positions.

[a700hitter]

Especially since Hinske was under contract, and plays more positions.Hinske flat out sucks. He stinks with the bat, he is a terrible OF, and a marginal IF. Pena is a great First baseman, and in his worse days he was better than Hinske offensively. Pena has more talent in his pinky finger than Hinske has in his whole body. Someone should have noticed and shipped Hinske out at the end of 2006. Could anyone have predicted 40+ homers this year? No, but should they have realized that he had more talent than Hinske? Yes.

[TheKilo]

Hinske flat out sucks. He stinks with the bat, he is a terrible OF, and a marginal IF. Pena is a great First baseman, and in his worse days he was better than Hinske offensively. Pena has more talent in his pinky finger than Hinske has in his whole body. Someone should have noticed and shipped Hinske out at the end of 2006. Could anyone have predicted 40+ homers this year? No, but should they have realized that he had more talent than Hinske? Yes.

Then I have a question....why did Tito give starts at 1b to Proven Veteran Mark Loretta last year in September, instead of giving Pena more than 33 at bats?

And by the way, the worst team in baseball gave Pena a minor league deal, and weren't going to put him on their roster until Greg Norton got hurt at the end of Spring Training.

[a700hitter]

Then I have a question....why did Tito give starts at 1b to Proven Veteran Mark Loretta last year in September, instead of giving Pena more than 33 at bats?It was an accommodation to Loretta so they could get Pedroia some ABs. They missed it with Pena. Did everyone else miss it? That really doesn't matter. Hinske stinks. It is debatable whether he brings as much as Wily Mo Pena, never mind Carlos Pena.

[TheKilo]

It was an accommodation to Loretta so they could get Pedroia some ABs. They missed it with Pena. Did everyone else miss it? That really doesn't matter. Hinske stinks. It is debatable whether he brings as much as Wily Mo Pena, never mind Carlos Pena.


For the last time.

Hinske plays more positions.
Hinske was under contract.
Pena got cut by the worst team in baseball.


Bad luck. It happens.

[jacksonianmarch]

both teams could have used him. He is a very solid defensive player. He's better than Minky was.

[a700hitter]

For the last time.

Hinske plays more positions.
Hinske was under contract.
Pena got cut by the worst team in baseball.


Bad luck. It happens.Hinske stinks at more positions. He is not an OF. Wily Mo was like Paul Blair compared to Hinske.

[TheKilo]

Hinske stinks at more positions. He is not an OF. Wily Mo was like Paul Blair compared to Hinske.

Then you would have given a contract to someone who got cut by TB?

Doesn't Hinske's contract get mostly picked up by Toronto anyway?

[Mr Crunchy]

paul blair??
never was the same man after he took the bean ball in baltimore but he covered a lot of ground in center

[Mr Crunchy]

dice k has been mediocre at best with some occasional flashes of brilliance few and far between
he has been durable which in itself is huge but lets just say that he needs a good playoff to consider him having a good year.
this deal will pay off further down the road than this year i feel
hes still young
1/2 clemens age at 1/4 of his salary
this book is open for a few more years before it can be judged as good or bad
i'll take the 200ip for now

as far as winners go
ted williams never won a world series but i fucking dare you to find a better american who played baseball,never mind hit .400
to say that ohh mickey rivers is a winner but ted a loser due to the rings is just humorous to me but it wouldnt be so funny as to the guys who flew with him in 2 wars.
there are guys who dont have rings
there are guys who do have rings
in any case they have very little to do with life
what i define as winners and losers is a world away from the baseball field

[Paradisecity]

....And now that we've had our Matthew Mcconehey/Denzel Washington moment for the day....

[Mr Crunchy]

how can a notre dame apologist such as yourself butcher an irish name in such a brutal fashion tom??

good to see you here
i like this place very much

i get bumped out of here around 9am every morning for whatever reason
i can get into the financial statements where we do a billion a year just in parts and service,they give me authority to set and deny credit limits for 1400 customers from nyc to montreal,a monthly collection goal of 15,000,000.00 but when it comes down to espn.com or the sox boards i get un gatz.....

[Paradisecity]

There's no way the Irish would take responsibility for that fag.

Am I allowed to say fag here? I can't remember the rules. Someone tell me if I can't

Anyway, I am by no means an apologist. I was the one screaming for everyone to play GT in week 1. They suck and the writing was on the wall last year that after they lost all their skill guys they'd be flat out awful

Its tough to find 4.0 students who weigh 300 pounds and can run a 4.6 40.

I saw a clip of Regis' pep rally speech before the Michigan State game.

It was laughable, and the people there didn't even cheer.

Without a doubt, one of the most uninspiring and pathetically stupid things I've seen in a while. But that is neither here nor there.

The FO has had its struggles, thats for sure. They are not the best at the free agent market.

what they SHOULD be applauded for is the group of guys who has kept this team glued together- the new kids, and the kids they are able to use as trade bait. The FO built a great farm system and its giving them the opportunity to mess up in the Free Agent Market. They need to exercise some patience there though.

[YAZMAN]

keep playing that card. It was one season, ONE. And if you want to talk chokes, take a look at the lead in the east.

And if you want to talk about chokes, take a look at your right hand.

[Gom]

:thumbsup:
And if you want to talk about chokes, take a look at your right hand.
In that case, I'm the biggest choker in history. AND DAMN PROUD OF IT, TOO!

[Mr Crunchy]

agreed tom
tito gotta get some credit for the smooth transitions of duddy and the young outfielders as well as the asian guys
when tomo ohka sunny kim and a couple of taiwanese korean and japanese guys were in pawtucket 10 years ago there was a brawl to end all brawls and no one knew who was pissed at who and where to place the blame
the men never spoke about it
a surreal situation at the time and all those guys eventually left here with no success at the big level.

men like tek and youk make it easy i bet and the laid back approach of the dominican studs is surely easier to fit in with than say playing with barry bonds or miss mabeline over in the bronx

[Paradisecity]

"It was revenge for Hideo Nomo and a lot of other things. There was nothing we could do about it. Nomo was a made man and Tomo wasn't, so we had to sit still and take it. It was among the Asians. It was real grease ball sh*t."

[Mr Crunchy]

"It was revenge for Hideo Nomo and a lot of other things. There was nothing we could do about it. Nomo was a made man and Tomo wasn't, so we had to sit still and take it. It was among the Asians. It was real grease ball sh*t."

nomo didnt move too fast
he didnt have to

[Paradisecity]

If you're part of a team, nobody ever tells you that they're going to trade you, doesn't happen that way. There weren't any arguments or curses like in the front pages. See, your waivers come with smiles, they come as your friends, the people who've cared for you all of your life. And they always seem to come at a time that you're at your weakest and most in need of their help.