Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[notin]

This feels a lot like a political debate, and it's hard to be unbiased in such things. IMHO Larry's verbal disparagement of DD is worse, because he never calls him anything but Desperate Dave.

700hitter did say some complimentary things about Ben. He said he was a stand-up guy in his dealings with the press. And the 'coffee boy' stuff, I think, got started when others suggested it was Lucchino who was responsible for some of the bad signings.

Personally I’ve always felt Lucchino got a bad rap as a scapegoat. For a guy whose been linked to numerous winning franchises in multiple sports, he was actually pretty humble. I have always and still do hold Ben accountable for Sandoval.

Hanley might not have been such a bad deal had he not injured his shoulder. Rusney had some pluses but never got a real chance and had his own injury problems. Although it is very possible DD’s original assessment that he was a 4th outfielder at best is correct.

But I never liked Dombrowski’s “win now and fuck tomorrow” strategy, because it ALWAYS leads to messed up teams like the 2020 Red Sox that can take multiple seasons to fix...

[Bellhorn04]

But I never liked Dombrowski’s “win now and fuck tomorrow” strategy, because it ALWAYS leads to messed up teams like the 2020 Red Sox that can take multiple seasons to fix...

But it's pretty hard to deny that when Henry brought DD aboard, he knew he was going to get the “win now and fuck tomorrow” approach.

[moonslav59]

I fail to see how Desperate Dave "pales against" Coffee Boy LOL

I think it's a wash, personally. Ben gets bashed for the last place finishes, DD gets bashed for decimating the farm. Neither gets better or worse treatment.

Dave was "desperate" to win in Detroit- as the owner basically told him to be.

I don't like the nickname, but it kinda fit.

Sure, Ben had less power given to him than DD, but I see "coffee boy" and being more disparaging and unfitting, but that's just my opinion.

Besides, it's not the worst thing said about Ben, either. Maybe, the most juvenile, but Ben was bashed harshly during and after his time with the Sox, and it lasted years afterwards.

If Bloom is able to turn things around, quickly, my guess is the DD bashing will nearly go away. IMO, Ben was bashed more 2-3 years after he left than DD was within one year of leaving. I may be wrong, but that's my perception.

Like I said, though, 3 last place finishes compared to DD's 3 years of great teams put out by DD looked at without the context what was left them when the took over and what they left the next guy helps explain why it is what is is.

[moonslav59]

But it's pretty hard to deny that when Henry brought DD aboard, he knew he was going to get the “win now and fuck tomorrow” approach.

Truth.

[notin]

But it's pretty hard to deny that when Henry brought DD aboard, he knew he was going to get the “win now and fuck tomorrow” approach.

Doesn’t make me like it any better...

[Bellhorn04]

Doesn’t make me like it any better...

Oh darn, I thought it would. Well, I tried.

[moonslav59]

Doesn’t make me like it any better...

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.

[Bellhorn04]

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.

And I'm sure that when Henry hired DD in 2015, his plan wasn't to can him in 2019 and replace him with a guy like Bloom.

But if that HAD been the plan, it wouldn't have been a bad one.

We're lucky it worked out this way IMHO

[Monster24]

[QUOTE=moonslav59;1360938]The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.[/

I wonder how things would be if DD didn’t extend Sale and resign Eovaldi after wining the WS?
Farm would have still been bare but would have been in a better financial situation. And since Sale had a year left anyway they wouldn’t have been giving up on 2019 anyway.
Might not have happened anyway but would have increased chance of keeping Betts I would guess?

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

I wonder how things would be if DD didn’t extend Sale and resign Eovaldi after wining the WS?
Farm would have still been bare but would have been in a better financial situation. And since Sale had a year left anyway they wouldn’t have been giving up on 2019 anyway.
Might not have happened anyway but would have increased chance of keeping Betts I would guess?

There are some of us who think DD offered extensions for Sale, Bogaerts, etc. only after he knew Betts was a goner. Dombro wouldn't come out and say it, but his "You can't keep them all!" quote turned out to be more revealing than speculative.

In hindsight the Sale and Eovaldi signings look like poor investments so far, but imagine at the time the uproar if the Red Sox didn't try to keep their best team ever intact? Sure, Sale and Eovaldi were injury risks, but both had had their moments in winning the title.

[Larry Cook]

Now see, this is juvenile, folks. Larry has cleared it up for us.

Juvenile or 100 percent accurate! At the end of the day, desperate Dave drove 3 different organizations off a cliff with his all or nothing short term plan with execution and to date, none of them have really ever recovered.

Ps: Miami looks to be about to exit the desperate Dave cloud and get back to respectability with some semblance of sustainability.

[moonslav59]

And I'm sure that when Henry hired DD in 2015, his plan wasn't to can him in 2019 and replace him with a guy like Bloom.

But if that HAD been the plan, it wouldn't have been a bad one.

We're lucky it worked out this way IMHO

I think both DD and Henry felt the window created by DD's farm sell off would last to 2020 and maybe 2021, but I do think he knew the cliff was going to happen.

2019 was a shocker. The "end" came too soon.

[moonslav59]

[QUOTE=Monster24;1360942]

The worst possible outcome for DD would have been to spend all that capital- both financial & in young prospects trades- and not get a ring.

Sure, it looked and still looks like it was overkill, but nothing is a sure bet in baseball.

What he did really hurt our long term outlook, but those 3 seasons were incredibly exciting and that 2018 team will go down as one of the best teams of all time. The window of success should really have been 4-5 years, but the Gods of 2019 were not kind to us. (Not that I'm complaining- 4 rings in 15 years was heavenly.)

Had the 2018 ring been our first in 80+ years, I doubt anyone would be complaining- not that this makes everything alright.

Also, hardly anybody criticizes Henry, and for good reason, but you have to know he hired DD to do what he did. He could have told him, at anytime, "enough is enough- be happy with what we have and roll the dice." Going overboard was the accepted plan by the team. Mortgaging the future was part of the plan.[/

I wonder how things would be if DD didn’t extend Sale and resign Eovaldi after wining the WS?
Farm would have still been bare but would have been in a better financial situation. And since Sale had a year left anyway they wouldn’t have been giving up on 2019 anyway.
Might not have happened anyway but would have increased chance of keeping Betts I would guess?

As I just stated, I think DD and Henry felt "the window would last 5-6 years and would be worth the sell-off. (2016 to 2020 or 2021)

Had we done well in 2019 and 2020, maybe Betts stays, but if a re-set was always going to be in the pans, they had to know the good dimes would end, at some point, and a rebuild or some sort would have to happen- most likely without DD at the helm.

[moonslav59]

Juvenile or 100 percent accurate! At the end of the day, desperate Dave drove 3 different organizations off a cliff with his all or nothing short term plan with execution and to date, none of them have really ever recovered.

Ps: Miami looks to be about to exit the desperate Dave cloud and get back to respectability with some semblance of sustainability.

The Marlins ownership demanded the sell-offs. (The long time returning to respectability was not all on DD. They didn't even try to get back for many years.)

The Tigers ownership demanded a win now philosophy.

I have to think Henry knew what DD was going to do, when he hired him, so to me, it's not all on DD and besides, DD brought us the best 3 year stretch in 90+ years of Red Sox history. Focusing on just the bad aspects of his era is well within your rights, but did you enjoy those 3 years? 2018 was a super team- super record- super playoffs.

I can totally sympathize with anyone who thinks the few years we're in the middle of suck, and they do. I can understand anyone thinking 2016 to 2018 does not outweigh the 2019-2021, but to me it was, and I can't see how anyone can feel so strongly that the balance is so out of whack as to never even mention the good side of DD's era.

(I also feel the same about those who so strongly bash the Ben era.)

[oldtimer]

[QUOTE=moonslav59;1360950]

As I just stated, I think DD and Henry felt "the window would last 5-6 years and would be worth the sell-off. (2016 to 2020 or 2021)

Had we done well in 2019 and 2020, maybe Betts stays, but if a re-set was always going to be in the pans, they had to know the good dimes would end, at some point, and a rebuild or some sort would have to happen- most likely without DD at the helm.

Maybe Betts left just for the money or maybe there were other issues. Cora going, race related thoughts, just incompatibility with the northeast, or other issues may have been involved. As far as race is concerned, I have been in other big league parks and you always have jerks yelling in them. If it's not enough USA born African Americans on the team I am reminded that we are all of African heritage if you go back far enough. If it's not enough players of color, I would say there are quite a few, but they originate from Latino heritages. What I think is that it wasn't a main driver for Mookie, but I may be wrong. as far as Cora leaving, Mookie probably knew he would be back. Maybe he just liked the idea of being on the West coast and we were bound to lose him. We made a stong offer and he wouldn't accept it. It may play out in a positive or negative manner for us. With the length of the contract, I will probably not be around to see it.