Don't blame the fans. I'm sure the large majority of fans would prefer it if there was never any cheating of any kind. When they find out about the cheating, they cope with it in their own way.Originally Posted by notin
Don't blame the fans. I'm sure the large majority of fans would prefer it if there was never any cheating of any kind. When they find out about the cheating, they cope with it in their own way.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Sosa doesn’t have any HR record, but did go over Roger Maris famous 61 three times with his steroids,and A Rod’s help put him past the great Willy Mays in total HRs. Doctoring baseballs have been done since baseball has been played, and while considered cheating just never got the same wrath.
ARod: most career HRs by an infielder? Sammy: most 60-homer seasons (3)?
Re. Gaylord, it was really the baseball writers, not the fans, who honored him. Scribes voted Perry to the Hall, and awarded him Cy Youngs in both the AL and NL. Managers and coaches also picked him to five All-Star teams (fans only voted for starting lineups of position players).
Where it gets interesting, though, is awards voted on by the players, like The Sporting News Pitcher of the Year. In Perry's Cy seasons, his peers instead chose Wilbur Wood in the AL in '72, and Vida Blue in the NL in '78. Coincidence, karma... or payback (Gaylord did lead the AL in WAR in '72, but wasn't even in the NL Top 10 in '78)?
The crazy thing about Perry's spitball is that for years everyone knew he was doing it, but no one could catch him in the act.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Although we like to refer to these as the same thing IMHO there's a difference between 'cheating' and 'gamesmanship'.
Gamesmanship is an in-your-face, catch-me-if-you-can thing. The person doing it is essentially saying, "I'm here on the field and I'm doing it right in front of you." And in the case of pitchers, "If you can catch me I'll have to stop." I'm good with that. Gamesmanship - trying to outsmart the other guy - has always been a part of the time-honored tradition of the game. And, for that matter, a part of life.
However, when a player intentionally uses steroids, etc. to alter his biological make-up in a way that can't be detected by anyone on the field, THAT'S CHEATING! It cheats the game and it cheats the other players, both who are currently playing against the cheater and those who have come before him. I want those people who are CHEATING to be penalized in some way and yet because their method of cheating can't be detected on the field there are some who want to turn a blind eye to it.
I say that there has to be SOME WAY to alert everyone that this person was a cheater, hence my suggestion of an asterisk. Yes, that's unfair to those who played the game fairly but the cheaters have put baseball in a position where someone - either the cheaters or the clean players - have to be treated "unfairly". I'll choose to be unfair to the cheaters.
But... that's JMO!
It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
-Vin Scully
My concept of gamesmanship is that it has to do with 'messing with the head' of the opponent with trash talk and various psychological tactics. I don't think of it as including doctoring the baseball.
I do think that doctoring the baseball is a less serious offense than juicing the body. But that's a purely subjective distinction.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Serious question regarding this definition.
Why is biologically altering your physique with steroids considered cheating while surgically correcting your vision via LASIK acceptable? Both are medical advantages that can help a hitter that were not available throughout history. I imagine a few players who had great careers could have had better ones had LASIK surgery been available.
Also the generic term “steroids” ignores that for a period of time, many PEDs were legal. When the bottle of andro was found in Mark McGwire’s locker, it was a perfectly legal substance to use in MLB. Many used creatine, which I believe still is.
So if a player is using a substance that is not banned, is it cheating? Because a lot of players using legal substances get lumped into that category.
And what Gaylord Perry did was cheating. He broke rules. He even admitted. Calling it “gamesmanship” sounds like giving him an excuse…
Last edited by notin; 11-26-2021 at 10:36 AM.
PEDs are perceived as evil for several reasons.
1) They can lead to dramatic changes in physical appearance, not only huge increases in muscle mass, but even scarier stuff like increased head size.
2) They can produce extremely adverse psychological effects-"roid rage" being the most familiar.
3) They can kill. Lyle Alzado.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
LASIK is a correction, as you said. It restores eyesight to 20/20. Also, being a LASIK patient myself, I can attest that it's a godsend, but it didn't make my vision better than it was when I wore glasses or contact lenses. It just took away the burden of having to wear them and look after them.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
I'd say our old friend Nomar did his part to make steroids look bad. Between that incredibly ripped SI cover and his rapid physical breakdown after we traded him.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
The use of anabolic steroids was very prevalent in baseball ,as well as many other sports , even after the side effects and health risks were becoming known. People in other professions were into it too. They were easily obtained in most gyms. We have no way of knowing how many guys ( and girls ) were using them. It is not fair to punish the few that we are sure were using them . I'm pretty sure that some of our favorite heroes were involved also .
Old school is good school.
I remember that SI cover and I also remember what Schilling said when some said that it looked like Nomar may have been 'using", that he was "100% certain" that Nomar's appearance was the result of his exercise regimen.
Hey, if you can't believe Curt Shilling who can you believe?
It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
-Vin Scully
So where would you draw the line on "cheating", if at all? What about Apple watches? How about banging on trash cans? Is everything ok? Is the line drawn on things that players/teams are caught doing and penalized for? Or is it a free-for-all out there where anything goes in the name of the game "evolving"?
It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
-Vin Scully
Players in scandals concerning juicing or sign stealing aren't ever immediately apologetic -- and it's not because they're in denial.
"Paying attention to details" includes watching pitchers to see if they're tipping pitches... or watching catchers' signs to see if they're tipping pitches -- in either case, the offense is trying to get an edge to know what's coming. It's why signs were invented, why pitchers change deliveries, and has been going on forever. No players, coaches or managers consider any of this anything but part of the game.
Before steroids became illegal because of health hazards -- especially to teenagers with professional aspirations copying role models -- PEDS weren't anything but the latest drugs to get an edge, from taking a puff/chew/dip to taking a pill, to taking a shot/syringe or 5-Hour Caffeine Buzz.
For those who compete, "playing dirty" pertains more to "how you play the game" -- like throwing at a batter's head, or Machado spiking Steve Pearce's calf muscle or ruining Pedroia's career... or the wiseguy in Little League who throws his glove at a gapper he can't catch up to. You can't do that.
I draw the line at what the rules say is legal and illegal.
But steroids and PEDs make for a dilemma. Currently the league operates with a “banned substance” list. This is fine, but new substances get denies all the time. And old substances can have new applications that have the same effect. Is using an undetermined substance “cheating” if there is no rule against it? To me or a big gray area. The “spirit of the law” argument would be fine but for that MLB still has allowable substances.
I know a lot of people promote the sanctity of records, etc. To me, this is a silly argument. The game has changed so much since the days of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth that isolating steroids as the only difference involves burying oneself shoulder-deep in denial.
Apple watches and tech to steal signs are specifically banned by the rules. No Gray area to me…
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