Tom Yawkey--revisited

[Maxbialystock]

If everyone around you is racist, it's okay to be one, too.

I'll teach that one to my children.

Must be pretty comfortable to say that in this day and age. Did you ever actively opposed racism? I have, more than once, but I have also failed to do so when I was in a segregated high school and 5 years later when I was in Korea.

I left out of my OP that I am fine with John Henry changing the name of Yawkey Way and the support he is getting from Boston. Times and attitudes have changed for the better and changing that name is great way to show it.

And this. I love the story of what Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson did. I even like that both served in the Army--Rickey in WW I and Robinson in WW II (he never deployed but through no fault of his own--a story itself). Both were truly heroic. Ken Burns was right to make the integration of MLB a centerpiece of his series on Baseball. I believe it truly helped this country and made desegregation easier--beginning in 1948 with the desegregation of the armed services and then Brown vs. the Board of Education in 1954. If we now vilify Tom Yawkey for not doing the same thing Rickey did--at least, not for 12 years--doesn't that diminish that mighty deed of 1947?

By the way, I also agree there were lots of people in the 1940's who weren't racist. In 1939 Marian Anderson, the great African-American contralto had been touring mostly in Europe because it was easier then trying to get a venue here in the States. But then Sol Hurok booked Constitution Hall in DC. Unfortunately, the DAR owned the Hall and chose to abide by the segregated policies of DC and refused to let Marian sing. Eleanor Roosevelt, a member of the DAR, promptly resigned from the DAR and thousands of American women--DAR members-- joined her. Hurok moved the concert to the Lincoln Memorial where Marian sang to 75,000 people, black and white, and millions on the radio. Three years later Marian was invited by Constitution Hall to sing there as a benefit for the Red Cross, and she was very happy to do so.

[moonslav59]

Must be pretty comfortable to say that in this day and age. Did you ever actively opposed racism? I have, more than once, but I have also failed to do so when I was in a segregated high school and 5 years later when I was in Korea.

I said I wasn't going to respond, but I will one last time.

My grandfather was a racist, who had "many black friends." My Dad doesn't have a racist bone in his body. My 5 sisters and I were the only white kids in an all black inner city Catholic School in Milwaukee. We marched in protest to the Vietnam War and for Civil Rights. I have worked my entire life to improve racial relations, peace and equality. After retiring, I have been a full time volunteer ESL teacher at a Title 1 school for 10 years.

I'm not out to vilify past persons, but I'm not going to glorify them either, or explain away their actions and inactions based on the "everyone else was doing it" argument. I deal with that flawed logic everyday with middle school students. I'd prefer not to deal with it here with adults.

[Maxbialystock]

Must be pretty comfortable to say that in this day and age. Did you ever actively opposed racism? I have, more than once, but I have also failed to do so when I was in a segregated high school and 5 years later when I was in Korea.

I said I wasn't going to respond, but I will one last time.

My grandfather was a racist, who had "many black friends." My Dad doesn't have a racist bone in his body. My 5 sisters and I were the only white kids in an all black inner city Catholic School in Milwaukee. We marched in protest to the Vietnam War and for Civil Rights. I have worked my entire life to improve racial relations, peace and equality. After retiring, I have been a full time volunteer ESL teacher at a Title 1 school for 10 years.

I'm not out to vilify past persons, but I'm not going to glorify them either, or explain away their actions and inactions based on the "everyone else was doing it" argument. I deal with that flawed logic everyday with middle school students. I'd prefer not to deal with it here with adults.

Impressive and way beyond anything I did. Especially teaching ESL now. Inaction is the right word for Yawkey. And my judgment--obviously different from yours--is that there were worse things to do back then than doing nothing. I'll go further and say that his unwillingness to sign black baseball players had very little effect on the ones he didn't sign because they could sign with other clubs. Still, given your experience, I do understand your insistence that anyone who wasn't helping was hurting racial equality in this country.

[jad]

Can't judge historical figures by our standards? OK. I'll concede that has some validity. Then judge them by the standards of the day: Yawkey presided over the team that was the last major league team to integrate. Yes, you can forgive anyone for not being the first to step up on an important social issue like this (who of us would 'scape the hanging?);but you do not have to forgive someone for being the last.

[notin]

Can't judge historical figures by our standards? OK. I'll concede that has some validity. Then judge them by the standards of the day: Yawkey presided over the team that was the last major league team to integrate. Yes, you can forgive anyone for not being the first to step up on an important social issue like this (who of us would 'scape the hanging?);but you do not have to forgive someone for being the last.

Although someone had to be last, and that may not necessarily be tied to racism. After all, if you concede the last team to integrate was racist, what about the second last team? Are they also racist? Or the third last? When does it stop being racism and start just being the order of events?

[Bellhorn04]

Although someone had to be last, and that may not necessarily be tied to racism. After all, if you concede the last team to integrate was racist, what about the second last team? Are they also racist? Or the third last? When does it stop being racism and start just being the order of events?

Then I might look at:

Last by how much, time-wise?

[jad]

There will always be an excuse to be the last racist standing, and there will be no lack of those around willing to voice it.

[notin]

There will always be an excuse to be the last racist standing, and there will be no lack of those around willing to voice it.

I'm not saying Yawkey wasn't a racist. His racism is pretty well documented and reportedly cost the Sox a chance to sign Willie Mays.

I just don't think saying they were the last team to integrate is necessarily the proof I would settle on. There was a last team in the NFL and NBA to integrate and no one accuses those owners of racism based on that.

In fact, the way MLB celebrates their integration had always bothered me. Not only do they only honor one of the 4 African American players to play in 1947, but really the whole thing smacks of MLB saying "Congratulate us!! It only took us 80 years to get past the Civil War!!"

Both the NFL and NBA also integrated at some point, but with significantly less fanfare. Anyone know who the first African American player was in either of those leagues without looking it up? Or even with looking it up? Those leagues bith did it so seamlessly and successfully many people never even think of them doing it at all..

[jad]

I'm not saying Yawkey wasn't a racist. His racism is pretty well documented and reportedly cost the Sox a chance to sign Willie Mays.

I just don't think saying they were the last team to integrate is necessarily the proof I would settle on. There was a last team in the NFL and NBA to integrate and no one accuses those owners of racism based on that.

In fact, the way MLB celebrates their integration had always bothered me. Not only do they only honor one of the 4 African American players to play in 1947, but really the whole thing smacks of MLB saying "Congratulate us!! It only took us 80 years to get past the Civil War!!"

Both the NFL and NBA also integrated at some point, but with significantly less fanfare. Anyone know who the first African American player was in either of those leagues without looking it up? Or even with looking it up? Those leagues bith did it so seamlessly and successfully many people never even think of them doing it at all..

With all due respect, this is not correct. The last team to integrate in the NFL was the despicably racist (and still racist) Washington team (I think this was 1963 or maybe 1964). (Even the RS integrated before Washington). And such scumbags they were, that they immediately traded away the guy they were forced to pick (Ernie Davis, who sadly died of cancer before ever getting a chance to play). I believe they traded him for Bobby Mitchell. (in a totally class-less move,worthy of a 10-year-old: "OK we have to draft that black guy, but screw you, we'll trade him for a different black guy"). There was nothing 'seamless' about NFL integration. And nothing 'seamless' about integration in the NCAA, which took even longer. Also, Terry Bradshaw in several unguarded moments once talked quite freely about his own racist past in football (he wasn't trying to defend it, of course--just because you were once a racist shit doesn't mean you will always be one)-- I believe this was in regard to being replaced by a black QB? (can't recall the details).

[notin]

With all due respect, this is not correct. The last team to integrate in the NFL was the despicably racist (and still racist) Washington team (I think this was 1963 or maybe 1964). (Even the RS integrated before Washington). And such scumbags they were, that they immediately traded away the guy they were forced to pick (Ernie Davis, who sadly died of cancer before ever getting a chance to play). I believe they traded him for Bobby Mitchell. (in a totally class-less move,worthy of a 10-year-old: "OK we have to draft that black guy, but screw you, we'll trade him for a different black guy"). There was nothing 'seamless' about NFL integration. And nothing 'seamless' about integration in the NCAA, which took even longer. Also, Terry Bradshaw in several unguarded moments once talked quite freely about his own racist past in football (he wasn't trying to defend it, of course--just because you were once a racist shit doesn't mean you will always be one)-- I believe this was in regard to being replaced by a black QB? (can't recall the details).

Again you focus on the end of integration. I'd go on but this thread is really getting off topic if I do....

[sk7326]

The last team to integrate is not a perfect indicator (the Yankees were 2nd to last!). But the "open secret" quota on African-American players on the roster was more problematic. He was a racist - and he was also a tremendous boon to cancer research. People are multitudes.

One of the great thrills of Pedro and Ortiz were being the first Red Sox since Tiant to really break through the team's historic lilly-whiteness.

[Spudboy]

Hmmm.

I'm not defending Yawkey in any way. But I would like to know more of this so called quota for African Americans.

When I started to watch the Sox in 66 and 67 there were at least several people of color ( I include Hispanics of African decent too ) each year.

There may have been many teams with more players of color all those years but the disparity never seemed all that great.

I must be wrong though. Right?

[jad]

Hmmm.

I'm not defending Yawkey in any way. But I would like to know more of this so called quota for African Americans.

When I started to watch the Sox in 66 and 67 there were at least several people of color ( I include Hispanics of African decent too ) each year.

There may have been many teams with more players of color all those years but the disparity never seemed all that great.

I must be wrong though. Right?

Never heard of a quota, but this charge came up again in the 70s, where there were far fewer black players than one would expect (I believe Reggie Smith may have commented about this,but it was long long ago!). By 66 and 67, you're right, things had certainly changed from what they had been in the late 50s and earlier. Once Earl Wilson got there (I believe he was the second black player? signed right after Pumpsie Green? maybe 1959 or 1960?), it would have been hard to argue for an all-white team (not sure there were any segregated pro teams in the US by that point: well, maybe in the NHL, but that's a different case!)

[bosoxmal]

Judging times decades or in this case 7 decades in the future is always going to put a different slant on things. Yawkey was no different than 90% of America at the time, he just had the power to hate and suppress while others just had the power to hate. Doesn't make it right, but to judge now with 60+ years of progress beyond his time is short sighted I think. Go back even further. The guy who wrote our constitution owned slaves (Madison). 2 of our Declaration of Independence writers owned slaves. Heck, one of them had 6 kids with a slave. Our first president owned slaves. What I think people need to do is never forget our history but also stop going back and vilifying people for living in the times they lived. We should celebrate our progress rather than ripping down those who made this country what it is. We have a sordid past for sure, but it is how we became what we have become. Yawkey is a product of his time

Good post although your "90" is out of whack. I was born in 1924, brought up in Somerville (1/2 Irish, 1/2 Italian) snd my guess is closer to 65% than 90%. On then other hand, the US Army was racist! Not integrated until Truman came along. Besiodes, more of Somerville's "racism" was toward the Jews, not the blacks.

[notin]

Good post although your "90" is out of whack. I was born in 1924, brought up in Somerville (1/2 Irish, 1/2 Italian) snd my guess is closer to 65% than 90%. On then other hand, the US Army was racist! Not integrated until Truman came along. Besiodes, more of Somerville's "racism" was toward the Jews, not the blacks.

Wasn't Jackie Robinson the first African American to achieve the rank of lieutenant in the army?

I know he was among the first admitted to Officer Candidate School (after a lengthy protest)...